just looking at entering the front door, the exta 4' is a huge difference. for that reason alone i would go with the 70' wide plan.

You show a front entry garage. If you made it a side entry garage, you could park 3 cars. With front entry, the 26' width only supports 2 cars, and the 36' isn't quite long enough for 2 cars to park tandem (unless you drive super sub compacts). Even if you are planning the extra depth for storage, it's nice to be able to get the lawnmower or snowblower out of the garage without moving a car out.

There is no coat closet at your front entry, nor at your garage entry. Where will you put coats? Muddy boots?

As stblgt mentioned, just looking at the plan the extra 4' gives you a nice "corridor" from the front door. In addition, if you look at the dining area, no chairs will be bumping the island; you'll be able to walk around the dining table with people sitting there.

The stairs as shown will not work.

Also, not understanding how the master closet will function.

stblgt - That is where you notice the 4' the most. I could opt for smaller furniture to give more space there as an alternative. I am trying to build for efficiency and cost of living reduction (energy efficient). I could slap on an extra 10' to make everything roomier, but I don't want to overbuild for when I am older and living in the same place, regretting the extra wasted space.

pixie_lou - the design was not 100% complete. I wanted to have the garage doors on the side. The lot layout will not allow that. I can have a side access door for the storage section, but after the wind break trees are fully grown, getting a car in that section would be a hassle and not practical. I had originally designed the garage to only be 26' deep, with 6' bumped out front with the porch roof. It seems to be more efficient to have it go the depth of the house, and use gable roof on the entire place instead of have a valley where the garage and house connect like in the original plan with a smaller garage.

I was considering having a coat closer behind the front door, otherwise to the left side as you enter. It would match the stair railing and TV Stand shade/material. I'm not sure how I could implement one for the garage area unless I a.) put it in the garage (not heated) or b.) put a dividing wall next to the firestove area to design a build in closet. I wanted the fireplace to heat the general area though, and that would defeat some of the purpose. Perhaps moving the stove to a different part of the living space would allow this.

dekeoboe - The Master Closet will have a sliding pocket door, the bedroom door will have to be closed to access the closet. Which, when going to change, that is normal. Putting laundry away will be the only time it is an extra step, have a better idea?

The stairs are currently shown as 48" wide. I am considering 42" to shave down the size. The landing must be as deep as the stair is wide, if I remember right. That would mean my stairs go down for 8 feet to a 4' x 4' landing, and then turn to finish going down.

The stairs alone may dictate the house width. If I have to make head room at the turn (depends on basement depth), to go down a couple more stairs, that is an automatic 2' that has to get cut from the floor area near the door, meaning either a raised 2' storage closet just behind that door, or stair rail making that so the door opens no more than 90 degrees (as opposed to 140 or so). Could you explain why you say they won't work as shown?

I would absolutely want an extra 4' in the two rooms where I spend most of time, and where visitors will spend all of their time.

chiefneil - good point. I really should design the plan with less space with smaller furniture, because that doesn't make it fair. The dining table would be smaller, or at least the kitchen island.

The basement would be a decent hangout, however. The idea is small living upstairs for family of 3 or 4. Downstairs would consist of the office, game, and lounging area along with family room.

Do you think I should not be bothered so much by 4' and just plan on 44' wide for the pros? The alternative is to make some of the garage conditioned space, but I don't see any true gain for floor layout by doing that.

Any advice is good for me to hear!

I remember my sister added 4 feet to width of the living and dining rooms when she built. The extra expense was very minor and it made all the difference in livability. I wouldn't hesitate to do it.

The reason I said the stairs won't work as shown is because you are not showing a landing. Also, I don't think you have enough stairs.

Regarding the master closet, it really does not have much hanging space. It looks as though you will only be able to have hanging clothes on the left side of the closet. There isn't enough depth in the niche on the right (backing up to the bathroom linen closet) for hanging clothes. And is not wide enough at the far end to have clothes hanging on opposite sides.

Where will you put a vacuum cleaner and other cleaning supplies?

It seems to be more efficient to have it go the depth of the house, and use gable roof on the entire place instead of have a valley where the garage and house connect like in the original plan with a smaller garage.

Efficient in what way? If you do not need that large a garage, why build it? Instead, you can have the house further forward than the garage, which is usually a nicer look.

There will be a walkout patio at the back, and the basement is a walkout at the back, under the patio.

You cannot have a walkout under a patio, it would have to be a raised deck. That means the dining table needs to be moved down a bit so you can get to the back door.

Is the gray thing in the kitchen an island? If so, rotate it so it is perpendicular to either the back wall or the garage wall.

funky - that's what I am thinking too.

dekeoboe - some good questions, let me provide some detail.

The stairs are just a placeholder. I will use a 7.5 rise and 11 run. If making a 10.5 run allows me to fit one extra stair before the landing, I will opt for that. That bathroom wall is ideally 12 foot long. This means 12' - landing depth = space for first series of stairs. If I assume 4' wide stairs, landing depth = 4'. space for stairs = 8'

8 steps if 11" tread (or) 9 steps if 10.5" tread. That is to get to the landing, which would also be one extra step lower. Then the person will turn (thinking right, as left would cut into bath area). I would notch out from the floor what is needed to maintain 6' of headroom down the rest of the flight. (theoretically 9 steps + landing = 6' 3" depth on the Z axis, so I am thinking I will be just right.) I won't mind notching out the floor there *if* that is what becomes the coat closet storage, with a elevated floor in the closet. Possibly with the 4' extra room, I would turn that immediate area into a foyer.

The idea of the master closet is an L rod. The niche is just an idea. Linen closet in bath is a must, so I did that. It doesn't need to be as deep as the shower, so I end up with that little niche. I am thinking I would turn it into a shoe shelf + misc. storage (custom built)

"Where will you put a vacuum cleaner and other cleaning supplies?"

Vacuum + cleaning supplies are stored in the hall closet at end, alternatively in the bathroom. That main bath seems to be plenty big. Behind the wash and dryer is an area of wasted spaced that would turn into storage.

"Efficient in what way? If you do not need that large a garage, why build it? Instead, you can have the house further forward than the garage, which is usually a nicer look."

The reason for the garage sticking out is so that is catches more sun, being on the north side of the house, recessed would turn that into a shaded, wet, icey area. I also wanted *some* part of the house to break the box look, albeit not much, it's enough to make it a bit nicer. The front porch will have a roof, being the same 6' out as the garage. Anything less than 26' will be crammed for double wide in terms of doors opening. Anything more than 26' deep is not needed, but making it 36' deep allows me to run trusses with no valley, right? The extra 10' would turn into my workshop area, if not lawnmower storage and tools. (3 acres of land to tend to)

My mistake on terminology. I meant a raised deck. And yes, that is the gain with 4' of width, I can have the island parallel to garage wall, and have more space for deck access between it and the table. The table shown is actually oversize. I plan on having something 2/3 the size, but want to have room just in case.

If I confused you on any bit, I can elaborate more!

I just had the thought of making the closet and bath all one room, accessed by one door. I don't know how it would alleviate much of the space issue, though.

(theoretically 9 steps + landing = 6' 3" depth on the Z axis, so I am thinking I will be just right.)

Except it looks like you did not consider that there is about a foot difference between the floor on the first floor and the ceiling on the second floor. Try drawing it all out and including the landing.

The other thing you could consider if you are willing to reduce part of the storage in the back of the garage. Rotate the kitchen 108 degrees so the corner is near the bathroom. Then extend the house out into part of the back of the garage so that you could do a switchback staircase. That would put the staircase outside of your 30 x 44 rectangle, but does not change the footprint of the house. You would have to play around a bit with the layout of the kitchen and dining room. Might even want to flip flop the master suite with the second bedroom and bath since the master suite takes up more space than the second bedroom and bath. That would make the kitchen and dining room a bit larger to accommodate the stair entrance and the living room would still be a bit larger due to the change in the stair location.

Depending on if the first stair drop is right off the hall, or if the first drop is 10.5" outward from the hall...puts me at about a minimum of 21" of floor cut away so you don't hit your head after the turn (not much of an issue, over 2' would cut too far into the entryway)

If the stair drops right after the hallway, I end up with 9 treads + the landing, which = 10 treads @ 7.5" = 75" / 12" = 6.25' - 1' floor difference = 5.25' + .625' + .625' = 6.5'. Two treads must have no ceiling above them, so 21" (2x10.5) must be cut from the floor heading towards the living room.

I considered switching the kitchen to the front of the house, and having a corner staircase in the living room where the current kitchen cabinets are.

I find it would be complex to have the stairs off as in outset from the house when it comes time to pour the basement foundation. (Rectangle is simple, where as that little staircase detail would add confusion and I would not feel there is enough gain). I *do* like the suggestions though. I think ultimately going for 44' wide gives enough room to make my current plan work. 40' wide makes things too crowded as you enter from the front. Smaller furniture would mitigate the issue, along with a more conservative kitchen. However, I think the more open floor plan makes the place more enjoyable to live in for many years down the road, yes?

Also note, I can take 1' off the MBR width without much if any real sacrifice. (I feel the bedroom is a place to sleep, not having more than 2 people at one time) It could work to a.) add room to closet and bath, or b.) bump closet and bath 1' inward giving 1' more for chairs at the dining table.

How are you calculating the total number of steps needed? If the basement has a ceiling height of 8' (96") and there is 12" between the first floor and the basement ceiling, the total rise is 108". 108 ÷ 7.5 = 14.4 You only have 9 steps plus a landing plus two more steps.

The steps I am calculating are only the steps that require no floor to be above them. There are more steps, but 12 steps will have no 'flooring' above them. After step 12, there will be flooring above the step that does not interfere with hitting your head. :)

Yes, I understand that, but how did you come up with the 7.5" rise? The rise of the steps is based on the total rise. Basement ceiling height + drywall + floor trusses or i joists + subfloor = ? What is that number? 14 x 7.5" = 105" 15 x 7.5" = 112.5 If you don't have either of these numbers, then you cannot use a 7.5" rise.

You have a constricted space for the stairs due to the length of the wall and the space between the wall and the front door. You only have 16" of space that can be used for risers going up from the basement floor before you run into a headroom issue. That is only two steps. That means if you need 15 steps you will probably need to alter the floor joists over the next 3 steps. But that interferes with where you want your front door.

So, what size floor trusses or i joists will you be using? And what direction will they be going? You will need the exact locations because you plan on altering them over some of the steps.

A 7.5" riser should have a 10" tread for the best climbing ratio. If the treads are any larger, the stair will not fit where you have shown it. With the smaller tread you will barely meet the 80" headroom requirement and that is an uncomfortable minimum.

The drawing is awkward and incomplete. A computer is a very poor tool for visualizing a preliminary design. The odd colors are distracting and the scale of some of the furniture is not accurate. I recommend using tracing paper and drawing freehand until you have a good well proportioned design and then use a computer for contract documents.

I'm not sure what seems to be so confusing. :/

There will be 12 steps that are within the 80" of headway minimum. The 13th step and beyond will have over 80" of headway.

Basement wall = 9' + 11 7/8" Joist + 1" flooring. 12 steps @ 7.5" (code limit of a rise) = 90" of depth. Subtract the floor and joist = 78". So in after 12 steps I will need to go down 30" more to reach basement floor. Those next 30" will have enough headway that the flooring / joists do not need cut out.

The items I used are to scale. I specifically sized them to be certain. The stairs may look 'funny'. They are simply a placeholder, the lines you see do not represent each staircase. The software used does not offer to custom draw each tread. But they are spaced the proper width and depth of the wall.

I made the furniture to scale if not a couple extra inches in each dimension so I can be certain there is enough room. It proves that the 40' is just not wide enough especially after the stairs cut into the floor.

There will be 12 steps that are within the 80" of headway minimum. The 13th step and beyond will have over 80" of headway.

Basement wall = 9' + 11 7/8" Joist + 1" flooring. 12 steps @ 7.5" (code limit of a rise) = 90" of depth. Subtract the floor and joist = 78".

You realize that the math of your 2nd paragraph doesn't support the conclusion of your 1st paragraph.

The room next to the stairs is 12'5" deep, so if the stairs begin right on the hallway line you have a straight run of 12'5" (assuming the thickness of the basement foundation wall is the same as the 1st floor wall. Foundation walls are usually 8" thick, so it's likely that you're losing a few inches in that straight run.

On the end of the run you note that you want to have a landing, you also note that your stairs will be 42" wide, so this means that your run now drops from 149" (12'5") to 107".

With each tread being 10" in depth, this allows you 10 treads, you can't fit 11 into the run unless you a.) reduce the width of your stairs, or b.) reduce the depth of your treads.

Your landing is going to turn and continue towards the basement and that flight of stairs will be under your entry door. This means that at some point in that flight you will have the 1st floor above the stairs. You need an 80" height clearance.

Assuming that your 1" of flooring is comprised of 3/4" subfloor and 1/4" carpet, then if we set Zero to be the top of the floor, you will have descended 82 1/2" (11 steps @ 7 1/2" (10 steps + landing).

At your first step off the landing, you presumably, are now traveling under the floor. Above your head, in the finished basement, is 1/2" of drywall and 11 7/8" floor joist. You are now 90" under your carpet (zero mark) but have 12 3/8" of joist/drywall above your head, giving you a clearance of only 77 5/8"

You need 11 treads, not 10, before you step on your landing. With each tread being 10" you need a straight run of 110 before you figure in the landing, this leaves you 39" for a landing (assuming basement wall is directly underneath 1st floor wall.) which in turn means that you stairs would be 39" wide.

If your floor joists + sublfoor + finish floor are more than 12 7/8" in thickness, then you need to account for the added thickness when considering the 80" minimum height clearance.

Either incorporate a winder or lengthen that 12'5" run and you should be able to make the 80" height clearance.

Alex, I did round a couple inches in the math above. That is all. What I have said now for about 3 different times is that I will be notching out flooring next to the front entry door to meet the 80" minimum clearance. I am saying that the first 9 steps, landing and turn right, then two more steps (total of 12 steps down) will all require the floor above to be cut out. After stair #12, there will be the minimum clearance available for the rest of the way down without having to cut out any more flooring.

I'm not sure what method I will use when it comes to supporting the floor joists I have to cut short from having them set on the foundation. The joists will run the depth of the house so the majority of the stairs will not be an issue until I am cutting them short so they no longer rest on the foundation wall.

If you're going to open the floor after the landing turn, then doesn't that settle your question about the 4' difference? Without that additional 4', in the 66' model, you either open the front door and are right next to the balcony or the balcony might encroach into your door or you slide the door further to the left and then when you enter the house you have a sofa directly in front of you.

The 70' model buys you maneuvering room.

The incremental cost of the additional 4' isn't going to be too much because it's mostly empty spacing that you're building - no new cabinets, sinks, toilets, etc - just floor and ceiling.

I think a lot of things will be easier with the added 4', and the cost won't be much, as others have said.

Why such wide stairs? Code in most areas calls for 36" wide minimum. I made mine 37", and they seem plenty wide, especially going down to a basement. As for working out the dimensions, be very, very careful. I drew mine in all different views, including 3D just to make sure i got it right. I'm also careful not to take anything right to the code minimum or maximum. Building a house is not as exact as it would seem, and it would be very bad to find out too late that you had to add another riser to meet code.

As for the garage- I've never seen a garage that was too big, but then, I'm a guy who has to have his workshop. I think the extra depth will be very useful in the long run. I minimized the size of our attached garage for aesthetics, but i also have a 1400 square foot barn to work in.

I think the master closet is awkward and a waste of space. Either have a reach-in closet, or a 7' wide walk-in. Look at reconfiguring the wall between bedrooms so each has a 2' deep reach-in closet.

Those next 30" will have enough headway that the flooring / joists do not need cut out.

How? 9' basement ceiling (floor to drywall) means 9 x 12 = 108" 108 - 30 = 78" which is less than the 80" minimum headroom required.

Alex, that is what I am leaning towards for sure. There was just some debate about the stairs that needed to be figured out on the design.

Mush, I was just overbuilding to to 'be certain'. You say 37" is nice. I was thinking I would opt for 44 since rails will take up 3-4". I may be shaving them down to 38" if I am unable to have enough room after the landing turns (such as if the stairs cut too much in the front entry way)

I am currently thinking with the extra 4' that will not be an issue...depending on how I manage the entry. Considering having a 6' dividing wall from entry and living room, then opposite of that a matching storage wall / closet to hide the cut out floor and allow coats, boots, etc to be stowed away. Suggestions?

The closet is awkward with that niche, but I figured I would turn it into built in shelving floor to ceiling. Then there is an L shaped space for hanging clothes along one side and the back of the closet. Taking out the niche and giving it to the bathroom is a waste of space. I considered splitting the closet between both bedrooms. But where do you put dressers and a TV? I am not building the master bedroom to be excessive by any means. I want just enough room to get around the bed and feel comfortable (3' or so, I think)

The garage is an awkward big. If it were wider and less deep it would be more efficient but location on lot doesn't allow that. I can easily use the extra depth for a riding mower, woodworking area, and my little motorcycle.

dekeoboe :) Thank you for harping on me about my lax attitude on the stairs. So, Yes, that is true with only 78". So I am thinking about making the stairs less wide so the landing is less wide so I can fit an extra stair. Assuming 4' extra space is there at the front door, I think we could cut out one more I-joist to make sure I meet code. Do you have any other suggestion? Do you think my idea of having a storage closet with a false bottom to the right of the entry door will look funny when all said and done? What about having that section of the house serve as a foyer with walls on each side of entry?

My only other thought is to have the stairs next to the garage wall, and behind the long kitchen wall. The garage person door would need moved further down so I can have enough stairs before the turn landing to not have to make any floor notches under kitchen cabinets. I really don't want to run the stairs perpendicular to floor joists.

This post was edited by CTSNicholas on Sun, Feb 1, 15 at 15:37

We did a U-shaped stairs. It takes up roughly 8X8'. I put a small closet over the lower half of the stairs. I had to raise the floor of the closet to clear the stairs, but it doesn't affect the function of the closet. Most codes require the stairs to be 36" wide at the tread, but the hand rails can intrude into that space, so they are only about 32" wide at the rail height. I used the framing around the stairs to support headers for the floor trusses, etc. As a result, there is also a nice closet at the bottom of the stairs in the basement.

If you put the closets between the BR's, turn the BR so the TV and dresser go on the wall of the bathroom.

I'm curious what the roof will look like if you extend it out to cover the garage and porch. What happens when you cut it back after the porch? Are you going to drop the roof line down there so that all of the eaves are the same height? If you just chop it off, the edge of the roof will be higher there, which might look odd.

I think U-Shaped stairs would have too big of footprint with my plan. Any suggestion on where they would go to keep the same seating count of furniture?

I did that originally for the bedroom, but then you have a very deep bathroom with wasted space or a bathroom with closet entrance. If I had a walkway where the linen closet is to access the main closet, then I waste space for that walkway.

The roof is being designed currently by a truss company. Depending on how they do the cut back after the porch it may either be a.) shed roof for porch b.) hip style or valley put in after the garage and porch covering c.) compromise of 4' overhang entire length of house with smaller porch covering, where garage still has a valley to cover additional overhang. I really don't want to bump out the bedroom because then the basement foundation does the same. This was suggested before so the bedroom and garage match each other with a secluded porch. Extra cost in corners and foundation work that serves no needed gain in floor space.

Your assumptions about the stair are not sound ones and may not leave your builder enough space to be able to correct the design.

The attached chart will give you some good design options.

As for head clearance, 6-8 may seem like an adequate clearance but if it occurs directly above a riser someone who is 6-4+ may find it uncomfortable if not dangerous. Code min/max dimension are not intended to be design recommendations. You should design for what you think is good and then see if it meets the code requirement. Most codes allow a 7.75" max riser and 10" min tread. An ideal stair IMO is 7.5" R and 10" T. A nosing would not be counted in the tread design size.

Don't put the top riser of a stair right at a passageway corner especially if the stair goes down from that corner. Always leave a half tread between a landing and a riser on both sides of the landing. Think about wall space for proper termination of the handrail.

This post was edited by Renovator8 on Mon, Feb 2, 15 at 7:53

duplicate post

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This post was edited by Renovator8 on Mon, Feb 2, 15 at 15:34

CTS, regarding the master closet: you said "There is an L shape for hanging clothes".

Keep in mind that you can't easily access any clothes hanging in the corner (they are blocked by the clothes on each side). The short side of the L is about the same size as what you lose in the corner, so you're better off just running the long way. I'd put a double rod most of the way, with just enough single rod to hang slacks and dresses (or do what I do - hang dresses, which I don't wear often, in my son's closet).

Shelves would be great in the niche, but the access would still bug me. It would be just my luck to walk out of the closet just as DH opens the bedroom door into my face.

As for the garage - picture how you would actually store your lawn mower and other large things. It's best to store things against a wall, leaving walkways clear. You mentioned "workshop" - do mean actually building a wall and separating the workshop from the garage, or just putting a workbench on the back wall? An interior wall would be great - it would give you a place to hang things, build shelves, store wheeled things next to it. A large open space is inefficient.

My Mom's garage is 26' x 26', and it's huge. When she had a wood fireplace, we could stack 2 cords of wood along the back wall (it's Minnesota, so protected wood storage was great - as long as we didn't bring in mice with the wood). After she switched to gas, we could store her fishing boat at the front of the garage, and still have room for big vehicles.

Adding 10 feet to the garage - unless you build in a workshop - doesn't give you nearly as much bang for the extra buck as living space.