Bob: Who is ARS?

USDA/ARS. Source for scion woods.

Tony

Here is a link that might be useful: USDA/ARS

Here is the thread where I described what I got this past year.

Bob, I look forward to descriptions of fruit coming from your orchard. I personally can't be bothered with long shots when there are so many proven varieties for our region of more than a broad enough range of flavors for me, but I've already benefitted from from a couple of Scott's discoveries in stonefruit and your climate is likely pretty close to mine so you should be a better source of info.

For plums I'm running with info from Plumhill Farm and trying out a few of the favorite varieties out of over a hundred varieties of J and E plums the owner is growing there for market in Vermont. I think it's in the milder range of Z5.

Growing scores of obscure varieties has its lures but my taste memory isn't all that spectacular so all I need is about 5 or 6 keepers to keep my palate as happy as it can be as far as apples are concerned. Additional varieties are more for my nursery than my own use.

Because stonefruit has to be eaten off the tree and the harvest period is usually not more than about 2 weeks for any given variety, I need to grow many more varieties to keep the high quality and adequate variety coming. Having an excellent nectarine doesn't preclude wanting also to have access to perfect peaches, plums or pluots at any time I go foraging in my orchard.

These fruit descriptions are an endless source of amusement to me. Wine tasters are trained to categorize specific flavors and the descriptions actually have a specific, more universal meaning- with fruit descriptions, not so much- no standardized training and no standards.

The relative acid to sugar balance and taste test results are pretty much the most useable info for me. But if you are looking for unusual aromatics I can see why you look at these descriptions. Cummins described an apple as having a champagne sherbert quality to it. Still trying to figure out what that might be. Maybe that it ferments while ripening. Love how those bubbles tickle my nose!

I once read that you can infuse apples in storage with all kinds of interesting flavors- citrus works well for this. I've always found the bouquet of grocery store to be a bit of a put off.

I did a bit of checking as it struck me as strange that a description like that would come from a researcher. It turns out that Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall wrote the following in a British newspaper article in 2006:

"My favourite is Ashmead's Kernel - the bite is a nutty snap, exploding with champagne-sherbet juice infused with a lingering scent of orange blossom. Stick me in Pseuds Corner if you like, but try one and you'll see I'm right."

I'm still pretty new to fruit growing (~5 years), so I'm investing some effort into finding good, interesting varieties. Hopefully I can grow the best ones for another 3 or 4 decades. :)

That's a good point about stone-fruit. I've been adding a lot of them too, though not quite as many as apples. So far, I've only been buying trees though, not adding through scionwood. I've grafted a bit from potted trees to standing ones though to get some actual production. Maybe adding some more varieties should be my next project after getting my apple scion order in.

Pseud's corner? Someday I want to learn to speak English. It's an interesting language. Does he mean pseudo writer or pseudo apple judge I wonder.

I was thinking Cummins came up with their own descriptions. That's a bit disappointing, really. Especially because England has such a different climate than anything you will find in the U.S. but also because they are relying on newspaper writers to describe their apples.

Yeah, I had to look that up. Evidently, Psueds Corner is a regular column in Private Eye, a British magazine. It lists "pompous and pretentious quotations from the media".

I think a lot of the Cummins descriptions pull together info from several sources. I think their Ashmead's Kernel is a good example of that, as some of the description definitely didn't come from the paper. Sometimes they even attribute the source, like with their descriptions of Sweet 16 and NY 35.

Defensive pre-empting, I guess. Pseuds's Corner won't bother listing him now- takes all the fun out of it when the writer nominates himself. I actually like his passion for a really fine tasting apple and I guess his description is a hell of a lot more interesting than mine.

It would be fun to take a box of various great apples and take a bite out of them, one at at time, and give your best shot at describing it in a way that carried actual information.

Usually I only describe them from memory which can't really work given the sorry state of that apparatus.

Hi Bob,

I thought the Roberts Crab looked pretty interesting as well, but took it off my list because of the "very high" blight susceptibility. Did you find anything anywhere outside the ARS listing?

By the way, on the redflesh side I was also looking at Arrow and Cranberry which are both crabs, but definitely smaller than Roberts. Any thoughts on or knowledge of those?

Hi all! Does the ARS care about how many trees you have in your orchard? Must you a professional grower? Many thanks Mrs. G

Zendog,
I didn't find too much on it, other than the flower picture which I linked above. There is an interesting paper on the chemical composition of red fleshed apples, which show it (Roberts Crab) as one of the strongest sources of anthocyanins.

MrsG,
They don't ask how many trees you have. They do ask you why you want the scionwood. So, as long as it is a good reason and the variety isn't something you could get from a nursery, I think there is a good chance they will give it to you.

This post was edited by bob_z6 on Mon, Dec 15, 14 at 22:53

I hope you get a few winners there Rob! The odds are somewhat low but theres nothing better than when you discover a great one. Abbondanza, Bonne Hotture, and Reinette Clochard are three of my favorites that I pulled out of that big ARS pile.

I have a few of the ones you list above. Oliver has yet to fruit but I think its worth trying. Reinette de Cuzy is a large apple with a nice mild and somewhat savory flavor. It does not keep very long though.

Scott

Where did you get them? So many I am looking for.
The link for are I didn't see anything apple wise unless I'm blind.

Update,noticed the links. Let me know if you find my jewel.

This post was edited by JGlass on Mon, Dec 15, 14 at 23:22

Scott, I just re-read your 2014 review and noticed that Reinette de Cuzy is on there, and listed as a non-exciting rotter, so I can skip it. I can also skip Oliver, now that I know you're growing it and will let us know in a few years if it is any good. Thanks for trying out all these varieties and reporting back. What you've done has really been an inspiration for me.

From my ARS list, my top choices are currently as follows (subject to change, at least until I place my request):
Roberts Crab, PRI 996, Paraquet, Saltcote Pipin, Fenouillet de Ribours, Lemoen, Merton Beauty, Lord Hindlip, and PRI 672-1

JGlass, I grew My Jewel. It was supremely unexciting in my climate so I removed it. California-bred apples often don't do well for me.

On the topic of those later ones you mentioned Bob, Blenheim Orange has not had any scab for me. I get little scab but a tree right next to it, Ginger Gold, had bad scab and Blenheim didn't "catch" the disease at all.

Oh you will have to wait a few more years for Oliver, Bob, it was on a 6-variety tree in a 3' spaced row and I decided to remove Oliver from that tree this winter so the other 5 had a chance of fruiting. My over-exuberant n-way grafting sometimes catches up with me :-) I have a pile of wood I saved and will re-graft to one of my many stumps of removed varieties.

Scott

Do you have to qualify to order from ARS? ie, be a professional grower or will they send scion wood and seed to anyone? Thanks Mrs. G

Mrs G, I don't know of an official qualification you need to meet. Their primary goal is to support other researchers, but they are often willing to help home growers if they are asking for something which is hard to find. I bet they will send you wood if you write a nice note and ask for some unusual cultivars. Keep in mind that grafting can take some time (especially for the relatively new like myself), so don't ask for so many you can't graft them all.

I only want one! Thanks Bob!!! Mrs. G

Mrs. G: I placed a for around 10 scion with ars using their web site and and another slighty different scion order by printing off their order form and mailing it in not knowing which was best and both orders were filled. I would say your chances of success with ars are pretty high I'd you did not miss the order deadline.

Mine came in today, unprepared surprised. Anyone else? I got 7 kinds total, for home use.

Yep...me too. I created a thread about it before noticing this one was back up on the board.
I got 4 or 5 varieties.

The requirements are listed in a note sent in the box along with your wood. It reads:

This wide array of genetic diversity is available without charge (unless there are special shipping requirements) to any bona fide (bona fide italicized) plant scientist or plant propagator.

Therefore to me, that's equivalent to saying it's available for free to anyone who wants scion wood.

I got mine on Wed. 9 varieties. Beautiful looking scion.

None yet for me, but I think I ordered a bit after those who have already received it (Dec 24, just like last year, when I got it at the end of Jan).

This is probably late on my part, Where is a good place to get some dwarf rootstock? Staking isnt a problem. 14-16 tree's if they all take will be alot of space otherwise. I honestly didn't think i'd get all the ones i wanted or any at all, but glad I have.

Would anyone recommend splitting it between attaching it to newly planted tree's and other to rootstock or doing them all on rootstock by themselves?

2nd time grafter, and not on apples. Gonna practice the crap out on some quince tree's that grow here naturally though or whatever.

G.41 seemed to be my preference that I will be getting 3 apple tree's on from Cummings, but It may be sold out that their website says but might be outdated, Sent them an email, Otherwise I still need a source for some rootstock and somewhere to get it.

As for grafting supplies, Which would you recommend for sealing.
Pocket knife and pocket saw for the cutting I have, or any thing different you use?
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00KIBY782/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_2?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A1CSCZ8CRWX2GH or http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0035H3RGO/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_4?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER or suggestions. Thanks for any help.

This post was edited by JGlass on Sat, Jan 10, 15 at 8:22

Bob...I wish I'd read your post mentioning the PRI672 and 1293. 1203 may be a super apple that didn't make the cut due to small size. A 2 1/2" high sugar apple sounds perfect to me. One of the reasons I ordered Frostbite, aside from it's Honeycrisp parentage.

If it turns out that you don't use those two (672 / 1293) up do you think I could get a piece from you? I only need a tiny piece of just 1 stick (1 graft each). If not, that's ok...I'll get it next year.
I'm only going to do 1-2 grafts of each of what I got if you are at all interested in those. I asked ARS to send just 1 stick of each. I was expecting a tiny box or bubble envelope.

Appleseed, Sure- I'd be happy to send some. It sounds like they disregard requests to limit it to 1 stick (maybe the wood is pre-packed?), so I should have plenty. But, I only requested 672, no 1293.

The final list I requested (with the extra brief description from my notes):
Roberts Crab- very red
PRI 996- PC resistant
Paraquet- raspberry flav
Saltcote Pippin- interesting flavor keeper
Lemoen- lemony, scab res
Uralian Butter
Merton Beauty- interesting flavor, scab res
Lord Hindlip- keeper, scab res
Kaz 96 08-17- 16.6 brix, good sized
PRI 672-1- scab resis Gold Del

JGlass, I've gotten rootstocks from both Cummins and Raintree. Both generally worked, with Cummins having larger diameter wood and Raintree having more roots (probably different propagation methods). G41 sounds like a good rootstock- I'm getting a couple trees on it this year for the first time. If Cummins is out, I think Raintree still has B9.

i got.
KAZ 96 07-07 - Banana-Halnut
Sunrise - pear-grape
Roberts Crab - very red
Lemoen - Lemony
Duchess Favorite - strawberry
Saltcote Pipin -
Paraquet - Raspberry

This post was edited by JGlass on Sat, Jan 10, 15 at 19:59

Next year I will be ordering from the USDA wild Russian apple catalog. It is the most genetically interesting part of their collection. I wish I could see the forest they came form in the fall slam full apples of every size shape and color. They would be wildcards likely to be good additions to hard cider if nothing else. I’m sure there are some gems totally unrelated to any American apple. This year I just tried to finish a collection of fairly common American apples.

Bob...I'll wait and get in touch with you after you've had an opportunity to sort out how much 672 you'll want to use. I don't want to cut you short.
I could get by with a three inch piece with 1 bud. I had very good luck last year.

OrchardAce, by "wild Russian apple", are you referring to the ones from Kazakhstan? Have you found any other good sources of info for these apples, other than what is already in ARS?

Appleseed, I should be able to send you 3-6", even if they only send me one stick. Given my high take rate last year, I plan to only make 2 grafts for each. Hopefully it won't come back to bite me.

I just checked the scionwood in the 2nd fridge for the first time since May and the scionwood from ARS still looks in decent condition. There are a few spots of mold, especially at the tips, but I think I could still use it if needed. So, even if I get some cultivars where I miss twice, I may have a second shot next year. As a point of comparison, the bag where I kept the scionwood I cut from my own trees (and didn't treat with anything) is chock full of mold. I bet ARS cleans the wood with something before sending it out.

Bob...so you have not received your package from ARS yet?

So you still have wood from last season? Holy cow.

I bet you're right on them treating the wood also.

I haven't gotten the apple wood yet, though I bet it is coming soon, based on when everyone else is getting it. I'm keeping an eye out, so that it doesn't stay outside in freezing temps too long.

I've just placed my Corvallis request. When looking at their page, I realized that they have gooseberries and currants, in addition to pears. Since they seem pretty easy to root, I decided to try a few more exotic varieties.

Euro Pears:
Doyenne Gris- "Sweet, spicy flavor, equal to Bosc in dessert quality." It lists "No damage" for scab and rust, and says it is "Moderately susceptible to fire blight." (which is better than Bosc)

Elliot (CPYR 2624)- "50% russeted. Buttery texture; flavor similar to Bosc; soluble solids to 18%. Ripens 2 to 4 weeks after Bartlett; stores 16 weeks at 0 C. Tree: upright habit; no fire blight during 20 years of observation, apparently resistant."

Beurre Dumont- "ripens late and is still regarded in the Geneva (NY) Station collection as one of the best winter pears. Oblong, conical, green and brown with white, very fine grained, sweet flesh and perfumed flavor."- Southmeadow (1976). "flesh white, fine, and half breaking. Juice- very abundant and sugary, possesing a slight musky flavor and exquisite flavor"- John Scott

Duchesse d'Angouleme- Flesh becoming buttery at maturity but not melting, somewhat granular, moderately juicy. Sweet, fairly pleasing in flavor but not outstanding in dessert quality. Early midseason. Tree vigorous, stately, productive, hardy, and healthy....Moderately resistant to blight. Semi-dwarf on quince."..." Samuel G. Perkins exhibited a pear that measured 11 3/4 inches long!"

Asian Pears:
Mishirazu- "Ripe in late September to early October. Rough brown russet skin, large to enormous fruit, some weighing a pound or more. Unattractive appearance, but good flavor. The crisp, crunchy flesh". "May trace back to seed from China. Found in Hokkaido about 1887" and has been used in breeding a lot of modern Japanese pears.

Yaguang Li- F.C. Reimer wrote a glowing report in 1919, when he brought this one back from China ("unquestionably the finest variety of China"). He also calls it as good as, if not better than Bartlett- no high praise to me, as I'm not fond of Bartlett. "The flesh is tender, melting, juicy, creamy white in color, and grit cells not noticeable in eating. excepting around the core. It is aromatic, sweet with slight acidity, sprightly, very agreeable...Inoculation experiments have shown that it blights in the young shoots but appears to be very resistant in the older wood."

Jilin- This one is interesting- a new development which is a seedling of a pear "from a market in Antu, Jilin Province, China by Chad Finn in 1999". "Seeds were germinated in 2003 and five seedlings were added to the field germplasm collection in 2005." (wow- they kept them for 4 years before planting??) The mother pear was "Green, oblong, irregular fruit, unlike any other Asian Pear I have seen in this market." Of the 5 seedlings they grew, the results ranged from wild pears to this selection, which they described as "very large, green, oblong fruit, free of disease symptoms or blemishes, and late ripening."(late October) "Ripe fruit was sweet, hard-crisp, and juicy and was well-received at fall fruit tasting events in Oregon and Washington in late 2013." It was just released for distribution this past April.

Ya Li- "Old cultivar from Northeast China...light green to yellow...ripe mid-late September...". From the data-set, it looks pretty resistant to fruit scab and mildew. This is my wife's favorite from when she was a child in China. I've tried the ones she brings back from Chinatown and they never seemed that good- crunchy, but not much flavor or sugar. There was also an off-taste from the skin, that I was never sure if it came from the fruit or from how it was stored and transported. I wouldn't want to add a whole tree of this, but it's worth a try to grow a branch. After all, I've got someone in the house who will want the fruit, even if it doesn't taste very good to me.

Gooseberries:- I found a couple which they gave their highest rating for flavor:
Sabine- A red selection from Ontario. It got a 16.2 TSS (Total Soluable Solids- I assume this is another term for brix) one year, though it also got a 9 another year. Resistant to White Pine Blister rust. Parents are Spinefree x Clark, so it may not have nasty thorns...

Friedl- "Chance seedling, apparantly a natural hybrid." TSS ranges from 10-15. Also resistant to White Pine Blister rust.

Black Currant:
Beauty of Altay- "Bred by Z. S. Zotova in Altai, Russia, in the early 1960s". The picture looks like it has pretty good sized berries and big clusters.

edit: removed extra carriage returns

This post was edited by bob_z6 on Sat, Jan 17, 15 at 20:24

My scion wood arrived from ARS yesterday and is safely sitting in the second fridge in the basement. I ordered every red-fleshed apple they had (except for the two I already own). Very exciting. Also ordered red-fleshed peaches. These will hopefully end my quest for red-fleshed fruit for right now. Mrs. G

Mrs G, How many did you end up requesting? I see 39 apples listed with red flesh (a 7+7 for FRTFLSHCOL) and 9 more with "Rose red". You can see the breakdown of this criteria at the bottom of this page. Many of the 39 are tiny crab apples, which I assume you didn't get. Are you planning on top-working an existing tree, or grafting to new rootstocks?

My apple wood arrived today. It looks good. Similar to what happened with Appleseed, they sent 2 of each type, even though I included a note that said I only needed one.

I wasn't able to get Lord Hindlip. The note said "Not enough wood. Please re-order next year". I'm still very happy to receive this- I should still have plenty of varieties to graft.

Should I keep it in the bag it came in, or put it in a new one in the refrigerator? Hard to find visual step by step with how the ends should look as well.

Currently I have it in the refrigerator as it came.

I'm still cleaning out the 2nd fridge, as I've had a lot of apples in it, with give off ethylene (which kills the buds). Until I've done that and aired it out a bit, I've got the wood in the bag in a shaded part of my garage (about 45 degrees this time of year), far from the fridge.

After that, I'll probably keep it in that bag- it is pretty good quality and has a nice seal. So far, I haven't even opened it- why introduce more junk (spores, hand oils, etc) into it until I have to. When I'm ready to put it in the fridge, I'll probably double-bag it in a garbage bag, to try to keep any remaining ethylene out.

Hi Bob, Only ordered red-fleshed full sized apples (no crabs) I already have three crabs. No pink or rose fleshed apples. Will top work. Received about 19 pieces of scion wood. I already have three red-fleshed apple trees. I am taking on grafting with a vengeance this spring. I cannot wait. My success rate after my first year has been horrible. I have one 'Damson' graft that decided to take afterall. It will be interesting and so will the trees. Mrs. G

Mrs G, which ones did you get? The only red one I had before adding Roberts Crab was Scugog, which I grafted last spring.

Within a few days of placing the pear/gooseberry/currant order, I got this email:
"We are unable to complete your order for Ribes this year. Our winter has been so mild, the buds started breaking a couple weeks ago."

So, it looks like I need to order those earlier. Hopefully the pears are still dormant enough for them to send.

I gave up on the idea of ordering peaches this year, as the Davis repository requires requests to be in by November 1st for shipping in March/April.

I just got my pear scionwood today from Corvalis. Once again, it looks great and they definitely don't skimp on quantity. They shipped 2 scions each, in a 4"x4"x24" box. The longest stick was 22" long. Given the good take rates with pears, I can probably use 6-8" of each and now have 30-40". So, let me know if you want any of these types (listed in first 1/17 post)

.

Hmmm. It looks like long posts were chopped off during the conversion process to Houzz. It happened to two different posts in this thread. I only got 7 pears, even though I thought I had requested 8. So, I was checking to see what I posted. As it turns out, the post cuts off part-way through description #7, so I'm not sure. Looking further up the post, it looks like my initial post was cut-off around the half-way point. I'll try to get the original out of Google cache, both for my own convenience and for anyone else who later visits. It seems that the only version I see in Google cache is from December, which is before I made the pear post on 1/17.

2nd half of original post:

General- high enough brix and reasonably large:
Patul (also called Batul), 16.4 brix, 100-150g- a late-ripening dessert apple from the early 1800's in Transylvania. In Romanian, it translates to "bottom of haystack", which was where they were stored until spring (good until March/April). It used to be a significant eastern European cultivar in the 50's and seems to have at least moderate resistance to fireblight, scab, and powdery mildew.

Finkenwerder Herbstprinz, 14.7 brix, 250-300g-old German variety which has fallen out of favor. It is supposed to be at it's best in April/May, at which point it has shriveled, but improved in flavor. I see some references to it being used for hard cider. One link implied that it has good disease resistance.

Reinette Tres Tardive, 16.7 brix, 100-150g- a very late keeping (July) greenish, partially russeted apple.

Oliver or Senator, 16, 100-150g- Tender crisp, juicy flesh. Most refreshing flavor. From another desc: Nice red apple from Northwestern Arkansas. The yellowish flesh is fine-grained and juicy and often stained with red. Ripens October to November and is an excellent keeper. Healthy, vigorous, and productive per Lee Calhoun.

Gales, 17.6, 100-150g- productive, mid-season, red, good quality. Came from Milo Gibson, so there must be something interesting here...

Lord Hindlip, 16.1 brix, 150-200g- very late, very long keeping, balanced and aromatic. Scab resistant.

Cornish Aromatic (Wakeley), 16.1, 100-150g- Firm, slightly dry. Very scab resistant and a good keeper (until spring).

Shamrock, 18 brix, 150-200g- Green like Granny Smith. Sweet and soft. I didn't find anything on disease resistance, but given that it's parents are Gold Delicious and McIntosh, it can't be great.

Reinette de Cuzy, 16.6, 100-150g- Still sold in France today. Seems to be a late keeper and most descriptions call it perfumed or fragrant.

KAZ 96 08-17, 16.6 brix, 100-150g- No info other than the stats (semi-firm, sweet, non-oxidizing, etc) and that it is an open pollinated seedling of a collected apple which was aromatic and sweet, Free of disease. Heavy codling moth, nice apple.

PRI 672-1, 17.9 brix, >400g(but it says under 2.5"?)- Lots of Golden Delicious in its background. Scab resistant, very crisp, slightly spicy, very full-flavored, juicy to very juicy; very attractive. Good fruit flesh texture and flavor.

PRI 1293-3, 17 brix, >400g- Scab resistance from Russian 12740-7A. very crisp, very juicy, very attractive. Jonathan and some Red Delicious in background.

Lord Lambourne, 14.5 brix, 150-200g- standard British variety. Supposed to be a pretty good, balanced flavor. Grown by Stephen Hayes.

Others of interest (not necessarily from GRIN):
Carter Blue
My Jewel
Vanilla Pippin
Abbondanza
King David
Jefferis
Discovery
Blenheim Orange-Interestingly, I found 2 sources which say it is scab resistant and 2 which say it is very susceptible. All 4 appear to be different sources, not just copy-pastes of each other.