I love these discussions.

All of the words with 'for' in them have the same sound to me, and it is the same for war, claw, north, bore and saw.

I would only go to visit people, and would never say visit with. For a monument or the zoo, for example, I would just 'go to.......'.

Now Murray is the name of the only real river in Australia, and is pronounced with a short 'u' as in hut, so becomes Mu-ree. There is no hint of an 'a' in the second syllable.

Another American usage that always strikes me is 'in back'. It is perfectly logical, since we say 'in front', but here we use 'behind'.

This gets more and more interesting. Horse/hoarse and morning/mourning are both spoken differently and sound differently to me.

This discussion prompted me to look up some information about my colony's earliest beginnings in 1733. I knew we were a mixed bunch. Most of my friends are long time residents and perhaps that's why things sound differently. We were a very small English colony, but very soon a ship landed with passengers of Jews that spoke German and Yiddish. In 1734 and 1735, there were ship loads of Salzburgers from Germany and Austria and Moravians, also from Germany. Also some Swiss. Not too many English, unless they were pretty desperate. Terrible Climate for them.

So perhaps the speech pattern in this little corner of the land is more Germanic than English. When I was a teen, it was easy to hear the Yiddish influence in certain families. That died out as all the old folks died out.

agnespuffin, my pronunciations are the same as yours. My ancestors (originally Scottish and French) came to Virginia in the late 1700s and migrated west into Kentucky, marrying into English families (and who knows what else) along the way.

However, regarding the old New England foe-uh which is something like what we say, I may speak the way I do simply due to old age! And, CMC, I know a lot of people who make two syllables out of one syllable words.

It is interesting, isn't it?

Martin, I notice that "prevaricate" is usually the word that is substituted for "procrastinate" rather than the other way around. This misuse is quite common, I noticed the scriptwriter on an episode of "The Bill" had June misuse it! Now that you are aware of the different meaning, next time someone tells you that you are prevaricating, meaning faffing about, you can say in tones of injured innocence that you are not telling lies!

My real name is Merri (like Christmas, I tell people, but with an "i"). I am NOT Mary or Marry. All sound different to me.

Merry (or i), marry and Mary all sound different to me too. But a lot of people can't hear those distinctions. My last name is short--one-syllable, one vowel. Yet I get many different misspellings because people seem to have trouble hearing vowel sounds.

They can hear them, its just that they sound different because of our accents. We grow up hearing the vowels pronounced a certain way . I wonder if our brain hard wires that info so they always sound that way. Yet if it did, no one would ever learn to speak another language...

>Another American usage that always strikes me is 'in back'.

Then there is 'on line' and 'in line' (which you Brits make much easier by saying 'queu up') In my part of the world, we tell the kids to get in line. In places like NYC, its on line.

You may or might be interested in reading this http://www.ahajokes.com/eng010.html

Here is a link that might be useful: Poem of English

I want to know why Brits say "learnt" rather than "learned." There are probably other instances also where the "t" is substituted for "ed."

About "for/four", I dimly recall from my Atanta girlhood and visits down to small-town south Georgia, in some dialects, the word was pronounced as if the "r" did not exist, e.g. "fo" to rhyme with "dough" or "show". Also, as in, "Shut de dough."

I want to know why Brits say "learnt" rather than "learned." There are probably other instances also where the "t" is substituted for "ed."Indeed, here's another few: leapt, leant, lent and spelt.

Mary, the "t", instead of the "ed", is the older inflection of the past and past participles of many verbs. In many words the t-sound reflects how people actually say the word -- for many people, the t is much easier for the tongue than the d sound, particularly at the end of a word. Americans speakers/writers have had a long history of regularizing (what we think of as regular, anyway) of verb suffixes, but we have retained the -t inflection in several; e.g. slept and kept. It sounds funny when someone, usually children (logical beings, as children are), say sleeped and keeped, and we know they haven't quite worked out which words should take which endings -- it's largely a matter of convention. There are other words in which either ending is used by Americans -- burned and burnt is one that comes to my mind.

In some ways, American speech and grammar have been more conservative than that of the British -- think about the usages that have died out in Britain but are still alive in America (Canada and U.S.) -- though in the case of these particular inflections, Britons have held on to them -- fondly in many cases, I think.

As a Canadian I follow the British and Australian ways of spelling and speech but am influenced by and understand my friends south of the border. I don't have a problem with that.
(I do consider members of the southeastern states as living in a different country in terms of accent and language. Maybe culture? ;-) Sort of like Quebecers in my country.)
The one word that I "hear" often from the British posters is "whilst" -- this isn't used in normal conversation here and to my mind, immediately identifies the speaker as coming from England. Personally, I'd like to use "whilst" but I know I would come across as a pretentious phony. Unless I had a cup of tea in one hand and a saucer in the other...

Just looked up for and four in the Collins English dictionary. According to this one, they are pronounced identically. The only distinction it says is that if for is unstressed it's pronounced "f'"....as in "There's a call f'you..."

Re: learnt and learned...we DO used learned but only as an adjective - the most common being "My learned friend" when one barrister is talking about another. And of course, it has two syllables - learn-ed.

Janalyn, I use whilst occasionally. I don't know if I seem pretentious or phony, but if I do it's not an intentional affectation. I probably picked it up from English friends, although I'm pretty sure my mother also says "whilst," which she probably picked up from the countless English novels she read. I also use French and German words that some people tell me should be italicized in my writing, but I don't think so because they are normal, everyday words in my vocabulary. I suspect that it is sometimes the listener or reader who is worried about pretention and phoniness and will perceive those things when they aren't actually there.

Kath, I usually wouldn't blink at in back, but, now that you've mentioned it, I have noticed it in a couple of books I've been reading. In one of them, Jack the Ripper, Paul Begg describes a murder site this way: "Dutfield's Yard was in back of 40 Berner Street." I'm almost certain that Begg is English; so I'm wondering if the phrase is as American as it's thought to be, and if it is, Begg must have picked it up through cross-pollination. The other explanation is in back was originally an English phrase that became prominent in the U.S. but is now a fossil in Britain.

And how about "among" and "amongst"? In the US, you don't hear "amongst" very often, except in the prayer, the Hail Mary--"Blessed art thou amongst women". Do the Brits use "amongst" in everyday speech?

At another site I frequent there's a raging discussion about the use of they, them, themselves, their, and theirs as singular "gender unspecific" words. I've heard many times that the usage is very old and the finest writers have employed it, but few actual examples have been cited. However, someone at the other forum came up with a link that delights me.

I had also heard or read that a jolly group of grammarians decided, some time in the 18th century, to inflict English speakers with a set of rules to fit Latin grammar. Pedants have been trying to get other writers and speakers of English to conform ever since. They had some success with several generations of schoolmarms and masters; and, because of our teachers and the grammar police, many of the rest of us have felt guilty when we like to write, informally, the way we speak.

Perhaps you will enjoy the link as much as I do. I appreciate Jane Austen even more, if possible, than I do already for being the biggest "offender." The link to a list of examples in her writings is at the very bottom of the page I've linked to below.

Here is a link that might be useful: Everybody Loves Their OED

I have found myself using "unbeknownst to...." and wondered at how medieval it sounded. Do you in the UK use it?

I confess that my knowledge of UK usages come from watching TV. There is one thing that always catches my attention. It's the lack of use of the article "the" such as as in.."I'm going to store." or, "he's in hospital." I think in the USA, we always put the "the" in. I'm going to THE store or to THE hospital.

It's not a matter or right or wrong. I can see that, but is it a common manner of speaking?

I had the joy yesterday of watching an Anne Arundel county (county south of Baltimore) school administrator on the TV news discussing a shoot-out between high school students at the mall. He used the words "He say/She say" in the discussion. A sad reflection on the state of public education in Maryland's urban areas.

agnes-
here in PA Dutch country, we omit the "the" sometimes when talking "dutchy"-but it is almost like a secret language-we wouldn't say "going to store" but do say "in hospital"-we also stand "on line" and "out the lights" when going to bed. And if there are no more cookies in the jar, "the cookies are all."

Frieda, thanks for that link. Those were fun to read.

I have trouble remembering which prepositions to use with which words/phrases. I often find myself stopping mid-sentence, and when I'm trying to remember, I usually overanalyze and screw it up anyway.

I think contractions pose a problem, too. Sometimes what sounds right to our ears, doesn't look right on the written page.

Finally, I once read a blog where usage of toward/towards was being discussed. Apparently, toward is used more often by Americans and towards more often by Europeans. I think I have a tendency to use towards more, but it is interesting how that coin flips.

Agnes - not sure about the missing "the" in good old Blighty - I would go to the shops (never to the store...!). Yes, people are in hospital when they are a patient, but I would go to the hospital to visit them.

Don't think I can think of another example of a missing "the"...

Agnes it might be Coronation Street English that you mean, "goin' down t' Rovers cus me da's in t' ospital wi' t' flu, layke an' canna fix us teas."

Just seen a US TV film (we don't call them 'movies' in the UK) where one character says to another "Your transportation is out front."
We would probably say "Your transport is out at the front" or more likely "Your car/bus/van is out at the front" or failing that "Your carriage awaits."

Frieda, I 'looked up' Paul Begg and read that he is English and claims to have authored and co-authored six books. A terrible use of words in whatever 'language'.

Mary I have never heard unbeknowst to although unbeknown to might be used, perhaps in a written context.
Agnes, as Martin says we don't use 'store' but 'shop', so we go shopping. Don't you go 'marketing' in the US?

Yes, we do go marketing. Stores are like groceries and places like Sears, Walmart and JC Penneys. All of which are large and multi purpose. I can't picture calling Sears a Shop. I think of a shop as somewhere small. We go into a store to do the shopping.

My exposure to the lack of "the" is in the sit-coms like Are You Being Served? The Last of The Summer Wine, Keeping up Appearances. I grant you, those are not typical British speech, so that is why I was wondering. I think I have heard things like "I'm going to feed dog."

Agnes, I think you'll find there's a 'the' in there. You may not notice it because we English run words together, shorten things and generally speak 'sloppily'. As with the four/for thing you will seldom hear 'for' spoken clearly. As Martin said earlier, it comes out rather like 'fur' or just f..
We notice that folk in the US pronounce words such as 'shire' very clearly . . . York-shire, Stafford-shire and so on. We say York'shu, Stafford'shu . . . and I wont even ask how you pronounce Gloucestershire or the a town near us Cheltenham . . .but then we can't pronounce lots of your Indian sounding place-names!

Australians tend more to British usage.

I go to the shops, but large places are department stores.

We have taken to saying 'the movies', and haven't in my time used cinema, as many (all?) Brits do. In my youth, we 'went to the pictures'.

Like Martin, I would say someone was 'in hospital' but would go 'to the hospital'.

The car (never transportation) would be 'out the front' - notice I have lost the 'at' that Vee uses, but have retained the 'the'.

And as for place names, I'll see yours Vee, and raise you some Aboriginal ones *g*. I have also noticed that Americans tend to say all the syllables, as in Mel-born and Bris-bane, whereas we say Mel-bn and Bris-bn.

And finally, I have been known to say 'unbeknownst' every now and again.

It's very interesting to read this thread as I'm originally from Michigan with Grandparents from Kentucky and Arkansas, so I know exactly how 'four' can have two syllables and sounds completely different from 'for'. Yet, I say 'four' and 'for' the same, as well as 'Mary', 'marry', and 'merry'.

I now live in London so it's great to hear the discussion on variations of speech. As for Agnes's question about leaving out the 'the' in sentences, I think it happens in the North more. My boyfriend is from Yorkshire and his parents never say 'the' in a sentence like, 'I'm going to feed (the) dog'. And it's amazing to hear his thick Yorkshire accent come back when we visit his parents as it's very neutral when we're at home in London.

I remember when I first moved here people would laugh when I said York-shire (among other words that people still get a kick out of), so I've learned to tone down the last syllable a bit, and it makes me laugh to hear my mom talk about her York-shire terrier. As for Gloucestershire and my personal pet peeve, 'Leicester', WHY do they sound the way they do?! Gloucestershire is pronounced 'Glustershur' and Leicester as 'Lester'. It's just ridiculous, although I love to hear other Americans talking about Liesester Square on the tube!

Angelini, old words just get worn smooth with age and usage, like sea glass. - Admittedly, I'm not aware of any other language which such extreme wear & tear on its names, but perhaps other countries adjust their spelling intermittently to keep up with the pronunciation?

By the way, there definitely is a 'the' in feeding the dog, even in Yorkshire, but it has also been worn away, with only a little stump left: 'I'm going to feed t'dog'. It's there, you just can't hear it :-)

Finally, dear 'fellow Brits', am I the only one to whom Inkognito's Coronation Street phrase sounds distinctly Geordie?

anyanka, if Inkognito is a 'Canadian' Canadian he/she hasn't done a bad job, as a Lancs accent is very difficult to 'do' and a Geordie accent can be almost impossible to understand . . .while in soap mode think that canny lass Ruth Archer "Oooh nooh Daavid."
I listened to a talk on Radio 4 yesterday about the para-military factions held in 'The Maze' prison (I hope I've spelt that correctly, I value my kneecaps) and it was very difficult to understand what any of them where saying.

we "go shopping" at "the store"-or "the mall". We only go "to market" if we are going to Central Market, the farmer's market in the center of town-longest continuously running one in the country, I believe-and even then, we "go shopping at market" we do not go marketing.
Although my grandmther did "go marketing"-but only when she was buying food-anything else was shopping. She was 1st generation born US, her mother was french.

CeCe,
A cannery I visited in Lancaster County had a sign in the restroom that stated: "Outten the light." I took a picture of it for my scrapbook.

Vanessa

Yes, you see outten, particularly in the parts of the county that attract more visitors -we leave off the "ten" and just "out" them!

Here's something I read in an obituary for Jack Palance yesterday - not so much a misuse as a delightful ambiguity (which fooled me at first and second reading):
"Bitten by the acting bug at college, he headed for New York and got his big break in the theatre when Marlon Brando, whom he was understudying in A Streetcar Named Desire, broke his nose."

Had to share and this was the best thread for it. Mom and I had an argument over the spelling of turquoise today while I was on-line in her kitchen. I went to my dictionary link (broadband connection) at the same time she grabbed a real dictionary and darn if she didn't find it first! (She also, I regret to say, was the one who was right about the spelling in the first place.) A win for real books, moms, and especially moms who keep dictionaries handy in the kitchen.

If you are going to do the morning crossword puzzle in ink every morning at the breakfast table......you really should have a dictionary in the kitchen. It's as important as a coffee pot!

A minor success: on the magazine's blog, an editor of The New Criterion used "sour grapes" to mean "complaining". I sent a couple of sentences pointing out the error, and, although I didn't get a response, the passage was changed to correct it. I wouldn't have bothered, but since TNC spends a good deal of space lamenting the decline of standards in art, culture, and society, I felt he should be corrected. I doubt it was just my little e-mail that got his attention; considering the likely nature of the magazine's readership, he probably received more than a few.

I used to be a proofreader (once upon a time).
Maybe 2 years ago, I noticed that the authors of a rather long article about terrorism that appeared in Time Magazine had used "principle" when the correct word should have been "principal". I even wrote a letter (tongue-in-cheek & offering my services) to the editor and received a reply apologizing for the miscue.
So it can happen to best of us (even in an article written by several persons at a prestigious magazine...must've been a harsh deadline).

Also, the San Francisco Chronicle letters page has featured a running discussion from its readers recently lamenting certain annoying phrases employed these days...."put a fork in it", "whatever", and similar expressions.

Re the common links between UK and US English there was an article in yesterday's daily paper saying that a TV news item in which Princes William and Harry talked about the concert they are planning in memory of their late Mother, had to have subtitles because US viewers couldn't understand them.
To borrow an expression from a well-known US tennis player "I DO NOT believe it!"
These two young men were speaking in the Mother Tongue standard (RP) English with no trace of a regional accent or even the 'posh' tones of older Royals.
We are able to understand your President . . . although the convolutionization of the syntax can be bewildering.
What do you find so difficult about the way we in the UK speak? ;-

One that I recently found out that I've been misusing...

I was astonished to discover that you give someone their just deserts, not just desserts! It seems that "desert" is the archaic noun for "that which you deserve".

I hope I haven't irritated anyone here with that particular misuse...

Or is it perhaps the case that, as so often, the source I am getting this from is incorrect?

But surely a dessert is also something I deserve? ;-)

Thank you, Anyanka. Please close the door as you leave.

Perhaps someone can educate me on the proper use of the term, literary conceit (and give some examples from actual novels, not poetry). I'm aware of the formal definition (see link), but critics love to use this term in reviews, and I'm not always sure whether they are using it correctly or just being lofty with their choice of words.

Here is a link that might be useful: Definition of Literary Conceit

Vee, re your post above, what does the "RP" stand for?

I can rather understand the problem -- for me it is the wide variety of regional accents and dialects from various parts of England. Perhaps some Americans have gotten used to hearing Cockney, as in "Alfie", and cannot understand anything else, e.g. Oxbridge, or the "plummy" talk one can sometimes hear on NPR. And what of Geordie and Strouse, and others? It's happened on occasion to me, while watching a British film, that I feel the words are swallowed as spoken....

BTW, moving over to Down Under, what does "faire dinkum" mean?

Vee -- sorry for the error above. I meant "Scouse." I am only now learning of what these regional dialects, accents are called....

Mary RP is 'Received Pronunciation' considered the accentless 'standard' form of English. See the description below.
I can well understand that local accents can be difficult to follow. Geordie is from the North East up to the borders of Scotland, and 'Scouse' is the nasal whine of Liverpool, but not heard outside that city where the local population speak with a Lancashire or Cheshire accent.
The old 'plummy' cut-glass way of speaking is fast dying out, as was mentioned on the off-shoot of this thread, even the Queen's way of speaking has become greatly modified and easier on the ear.
Do you notice if you hear old recordings of US speech that women's voices have developed a lower pitch . .. as they have over here?
Mrs Thatcher is an eg. She obviously had elocution lessons when she went into politics which, although making her sound unnatural at least put her voice down half an octave!
And yes, we do swallow our words and most of us speak much quicker than you do in the US, although 'country' speech is slower.
Re Aussie 'fair dinkum' I think it means 'genuine/real

Here is a link that might be useful: RP English

Yes, 'fair dinkum' does mean genuine or real, but is more often used for someone's intentions rather than for a genuine thing.
So, 'he gave it a fair dinkum go' means someone had an honest attempt at something, or 'he was fair dinkum' means he wasn't trying to deceive you.
Used at the end of the sentence (I bought this for $5, fair dinkum) is a reinforcer of your honest statement :-)

Unfortunately, this is one of the many colourful Aussie expressions which is dying out.

I have to say Vee, that I am astonished anyone could think that the Princes need subtitles in any English speaking country.

I like Aussie talk.
I'm doing some hard yakka today. (work?, right?)

I met an Aussie girl at Lake Tahoe in 1980 during the summer. Her accent was delightful...she was pretty all-around delightful now that I think about it.
Thanks for the memory.

Oh and the song "Waltzing Matilda"...I think that is one of the best songs ever. There's some good Aussie words in there too.

Hard yakka is indeed hard work.
In which case you would be flat out like a lizard drinking *g*

Many of the words in 'Waltzing Matilida' are no longer used - in fact many of them sound very old fashioned to me, and I grew up in a fairly 'Aussie' speaking home.

Vee, you posed the question, "What do you find so difficult about the way we in the UK speak?" The answer is that most of us do not find it difficult to understand other accents, including the UK. I wonder if the decision to use subtitles for the interview of Princes William and Harry was based on assumption and not on fact. I suppose I find it surprising and somewhat disheartening that we Americans continue to be perceived as lazy and not very smart, and the media certainly doesn't help matters.

Regarding Mrs. Thatcher: I think I read several years ago that many of the British elite poked fun at her manner of speaking because she had obviously received instruction on how to speak like the upper class when she decided to enter politics. Is that true?

And by the way, I thought of this thread a couple of days ago when I read the headlines on Yahoo and saw something like this: "Terrorists shoot dead judge in front of courthouse." I couldn't help but wonder why they shot him if he was already dead.

colorme' you are right about Mrs Thatcher. Several of the 'grandees' of her party rather looked down on her accent I think for 'trying too hard' as they did on John Major who they thought 'not quite a gentleman', and now the pundits go for Tony Blair for trying to talk like 'one of the lads'.

Mrs Thatcher was the butt of so many left-of-left-of centre comedians in the 80's that I was really surprised to hear the other day, one of them, on a radio comedy chat show say "She really wasn't she a bad old stick. You must admire the old girl" O Tempores O Mores