My current favorite English Actor is Mark Shepperd, who does play bad guys. But what gloriously fun bad guys they are.

Long ago I began to wonder if we sometimes fit our behavior to stereotypes. Young people search for their authentic identities everywhere. Do some, without reliable role models, turn into stereotypes?

I saw a TV show some time ago, can't remember which one, but it was easy to pick out the bad guy. I heard the English accent and knew he was the murderer. One good thing about this stereotype is that it gives us U.S. folks a chance to see some really fine actors that we might not see otherwise. Also German accents and even South African ones - that person is sure to be the baddie. Must be delicious fun for them!

Chris, my mother who is eighty-nine has loved science fiction since she was a teenager. I could never get into sci-fi myself, though I tried several of mama's favorites. Maybe to encourage me, she told me that science fiction and westerns were basically the same thing. At the time I just couldn't see the correlation.

Years later when Star Wars (I think) came out, someone else, a professor maybe, likened science fiction to the western genre -- the archetypes, stereotypes, tropes, and other conventions, as you mentioned above, being the same or similar and obligatory or semi-obligatory. The 'space opera' is updated 'horse opera'. The 'opera' appellation irked me for the longest time!

Anyway, I'm sure none of this is new to you, Chris, but it stuck in my memory that my mother had tried to tell it to me years before. Mama has never been very happy with the combining of science fiction and fantasy.

Yikes, I hit the submit button above on my unedited draft!

Correction: Anyway, I'm sure none of this is new to you, Chris...

Lydia, thanks for your examples. I recognize The Help, but I didn't know about the overweight-but-brainy heroines that Books4joy mentioned. Heh! Re One Thousand White Women, I first took it to be satire -- very poorly done satire -- but when I realized that some readers genuinely liked it and took it seriously, I wondered if I was the one who misread it.

Well, quoting George Sand, "Balls!"

Correcting the correction: Anyway, I'm sure none of this is news to you, Chris...

I'm tired, so I better give it up. :-(

What the Heck! This is a test. The word "none" will not show up in my corrections. It shows up in the Message Previews but not in the submitted version. Has anyone else had posting problems lately?

Friedag, no posting problems but I frequently have to resubmit my name and password, then immediately have to do it again exactly the same for some reason. It only takes a moment so is not really a difficulty.
Now, weeds springing up after the much-needed rain. That is a Problem! Oh, my aching back!

Friedag, did your vanishing word have an accent mark or an apostrophe? I have had words with those either disappear or wind up as gibberish although they are fine on the preview page. I have also lost complete posts recently.

You did not misread "One Thousand White Women." The contrasting reactions to it remind me that not only are there stereotypical characters in books, there are stereotypical writers who write for stereotypical readers. It is not a judgment, just a fact.

Frieda, I understood what you meant anyway. We do recognise the familiar phrasings, and therefore the typo phrasings of our correspondents, don't you think? Bizarre they way the software ate your "none."

As a matter of fact I was thinking as I typed that the criticism of Firefly that annoys me most is that a western in space just isn't credible.

Lydia, no, it's just a normal word. Dare I write it out? Maybe I should spell it: n-o-n-e

Chris, normally I let my typos slide 'cause I know RP readers will figure out what I mean and if they can't, they'll ask me to clarify. But this incident was too WEIRD! I'm not even sure that it was a typo. I compose my postings in Word, then copy and paste them into whichever thread's 'Message Box'. Then I take a look at the Preview and edit accordingly. I checked my original Word document and the offender was in it, but somehow it got lost in RP's system. And the system wanted it to stay lost, apparently! I was hearing The Twilight Zone theme.

Lydia, I seriously doubt we could communicate with each other, as well as we do, without the stereotypes. They are a mixed blessing/curse, it seems to me. The stereotypes are constantly changing, too. It's funny, sometimes, when modern readers misinterpret the stereotypes of bygone eras. Annpan mentioned 'the confirmed bachelor'. It is assumed nowadays that the phrase was meant to identify the character as gay. Maybe, but I am not at all sure that was the intended meaning of that phrase in most fiction.

Pfmastin, you've brought up intriguing characters, those in Southern fiction. I have to admit, I wonder where all the dysfunction and Southern Gothic 'secrets' come from.

Chris, my mother adored Firefly.

Frieda, you must know how many Southern stereotypes there are. I live in Kentucky, of course, and we are all perceived as either hillbillies who drink moonshine, feud, and marry their kin, or are rednecks and participate in snake-handler religion; or rich racehorse farm owners who drink mint juleps on the verandah, wear white suits if male or designer dresses if female, and cheat on each other. Either case positively begs for dysfunction and gothic secrets. The hills are alive!

Further south, it's moonlight and magnolias, corrupt sheriffs, and more heavy drinking.

Carolyn, I'm disappointed; I thought your family fitted all the above categories and have often been surprised that you were able to sit long enough at the computer to compose a message without sliding to the floor in a haze of Southern Comfort, while your various handsome white-suited beaux fought duels over your honour under the magnolias. ;-)

*still laughing at Vee's post*

Well I am obviously a beer (or wine) swilling, easy-going, tanned woman who wears thongs (on my feet!) and shares my house with dangerous snakes and spiders!

Actually, it is interesting to ponder what stereotypes we carry. What do you think of when you hear 'Australian'?

Wheee! Fascinating folk, Carolyn.

Oh-oh, Carolyn, I don't think I've told you before: My younger son got married a couple of years ago. When he called to tell me, he wanted me to speak to his new wife, too. Cheeky little bugger (all 6 ft. 4 in. of him), he prefaced his introduction by saying that she was from London. I had about thirty seconds to absorb that, but I had already geared up a question or two for my new daugther-in-law. But the second she spoke, I had to flush my questions because I instantly realized she wasn't from the London I was expecting. You've probably already guessed with just these few sentences that she's from London, Kentucky.

I am seldom at a loss for words, but I was so surprised! One of the first things DIL told me: Her area of Kentucky is the "fourth poorest in the whole United States." I didn't know what to say to that -- I think I made murmurs of sympathy -- I mean, how should one respond to such information? But no matter, I learned very quickly that DDIL lays out all things forthrightly. She's a delight to converse with, now that I'm accustomed to her style, and I love her accent and turns of phrase.

Freidag, I am not sure how to reply about my reading of the 'confirmed bachelor'phrase.
I am hardly a modern reader, being aged in the mid-seventies and have been a reader for many years. I always understood the polite writer's 'shorthand' for a 'gay' man. There were other ways used to describe them, depending on the author. Some of these men 'wore perfume' and they 'liked to decorate with antiques'. They abounded in the mystery books of the 30's and 40's which I read and were usually sympathetic, gentle and likeable characters.

AstroKath -

What do I think of when we say "Australian"? Monty Python's Bruce sketch. :-) "Can I call you Bruce?"... That, and the scary movie, Picnic on Hanging Rock which I saw when I was far too young, and scared the socks off me.

Sterotypes are here in Texas (of course): ten-gallon hat, chaps, oil well in your back garden, miles from any where (quite true for a lot of the state), no rain/desert conditions (true-ish)... When I first came to live in Texas, people in England asked me (tongue in cheek) if I knew JR... ha.

The world seems a lot smaller and far away countries less exotic in many ways. I have been told that English kids now have Prom, and that there are baby and bridal showers... My oh my.

Annpan, my apologies for confusing you. I didn't intend to imply that the shorthand of the 'confirmed bachelor' didn't mean a gay man in the mysteries of the era that you read, or that you had misinterpreted the phrase. With the added descriptions -- perfume wearer, antique buff -- it probably was the code for the perceptive. I shouldn't have used your example in my reply to Lydia, but at the time my brain (as it often does) wouldn't come up with an example of my own, while yours was handy.

However, I still question whether the phrase 'confirmed bachelor' always meant that. Thinking about Raymond Chandler and Dashiell Hammett's hard-boiled private detectives, Philip Marlowe and Sam Spade: they are often described as 'confirmed bachelors', simply because they are unmarried and they don't want to settle down with a woman, mainly because they enjoy 'womanizing'. Were Chandler and Hammett playing wink-wink with their readers? Most older readers don't entertain that idea, but younger ones sometimes do, I've heard.

My grandmother had two brothers who were always called 'confirmed bachelors' until one married in his late forties and the other was in his mid-fifties. I never heard that either was possibly gay. So perhaps it was a less-common euphemism in American books.

Anyway, I'm probably over-explaining, as I am wont to do, but my point was, and is, that it's sometimes dangerous for modern readers to think the stereotypes have always been the same.

Australians love sweets, I mean LOVE sweets. (I believe this after seeing the shops offering every sort of candy imaginable, in awe-inspiring quantities.)

Australian men are manly. But they tear up on hearing "True Blue."

Australian women are repressed. Are you repressed, Kath? ;-)

Sydneysiders have an over-developed sense of their own importance. (According to Australians who live somewhere besides Sydney. I figure they are much like Londoners and New Yorkers, in that sense.)

Australians spend a lot of time worrying about 'the Ozone Hole'.

Didn't Sharyn McCrumb, in her Ballad novels, take aim at many of the hillbilly stereotypes? She delights in writing in details that subvert the assumptions - the hillbilly who just returned from New Zealand - that sort of thing.

Frieda, your question has made me think, and then think again. The stereotypes that turn into caricatures are the ones that make me want to wring an author's neck. I want some subtlety in characters.

When I think of Australia I think of manly men! As a girl I read a ton of romance novels set in Australia, and all the heroes were silent hardworking men who owned ranches that were a zillion square miles. All the men in Australia are big, quiet, highly competent, handsome, and just waiting for me to come gentle their hearts. And don't you dare tell me differently!

Frieda, I wonder what questions came into your head when your son sprung the new London Kentucky D-in-Law on you?
I remember when my now husband phoned his Mother to tell her of our forth-coming nuptials her first remark was "I suppose it's a shot-gun wedding." When told it was not and that my parents were very happy for us she said "I expect they are glad to get rid of her." Not a good start to wedded bliss, but although she did come to the wedding she never had any more to do with me or our children . . . but as my father said, after the ceremony. "If we never see her again it will be too soon!"
Frieda, I'm sure you would never be like that and have welcomed her into your family . . . and if your 6ft 4in son is the one who is a 'flyer' he may well know John (DH's) cousin's boy Mat Holmes and know about the recent 'downing' of a F/A-18 Hornet, part of a VMFA 121 fighter attack squadron from San Diego.
Woops I can feel the hot breath of a CIA agent at my shoulder, but getting information to Frieda is a tricky matter. "Yes, Officer, I am coming quietly. Just let me finish this . . . .
And yes, over here as annpan says, 'Confirmed bachelor' generally refered to someone who is/was gay.
"No Officer , I didn't mean you, no really . ..

I would not assume that a "confirmed bachelor" was gay in any book of any age unless there were back-up references to indicate it. He would just be an unmarried man of generally long duration. He could be straight or gay.

Friedag, similar misinterpretions include "making love" - modern readers may be stunned when the suitor in 19th century books dared "to make love" to the heroine when her chaperone was in the same carriage seated across from them.
"Slept together" is another.

Southern Comfort? This is Jim Beam country, I'll have you know. As for beaux under the magnolias, the closest I've come is once many, mnay years ago when a boy took a deep breath and a step backward and fell off the front porch when he started to kiss me goodnight.

Yes, Frieda, we have a London as well as a Paris, a Versailles (pronounced in full), and a Bagdad without the "h." I'm glad you are friends with your DIL and can appreciate her forthrightness.

Australian women repressed? About S.E.X, do you mean? Baahaahaa! The only reason they have started to cover up when sunbathing at the beach is because they are now aware of the dangers of too much sun. I don't think they worry about the ozone hole as much as the problems resulting from it. Global warming and the threat of a carbon tax is the current problem. Some for, some against it.
When I first moved to Australia in 1960, I had been fed the Australian Govt's myth that it was 'Britain down under' so I expected Aussies to be like the people that I knew. I found they were a lot more forthright and, at that time, rather defensive about their self-perceived lack of culture. This has changed a lot. Now they are happy and assured of their place in the world as fun-loving, sports-minded and financially comfortable especially since the GFC has affected so many other countries.
Of course, this is the way I see it! Others could differ in their view. This is a very big country, after all!
Freida, it would appear that the 'C.B.' is more of a British description device as I cannot think of those hard-boiled detectives you mentioned as anything other than tough womanisers!

Annpan, no, the repression I've heard associated with Australian woman is not about sex. It seems to be about 'Australia is a man's country' and the women just sigh and let the men think it's so. In other words, Australian women (excepting supermodels and a few actresses) don't feel they get as much attention as their men do. I've heard the repression complaint often enough from Australian women acquaintances, and from American and European women who have lived in Australia and have observed Australian women's attitudes, that it seems to me to be a stereotype. I have no idea how widespread the stereotype is in Australia, though, or whether there's much validity to it.

Vee, surely there must be plenty of mothers-in-law represented in fiction and literature, both negative and positive stereotypes. Of the positive, one of the most famous has to be the relationship of Naomi and Ruth in the Old Testament.Entreat me not to leave thee,
or to return from following after thee:
For whither thou goest, I will go;
and where thou lodgest, I will lodge:
Thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God:
Where thou diest, will I die,
and there will I be buried:
the LORD do so to me, and more also,
if aught but death part thee and me. -- King James Version
I don't know that I would have been as loyal as Ruth to either of my mothers-in-law to follow after them, but I was very fortunate in loving them both and in their loving me. My first MIL still considered me her daughter-in-law even after I remarried, and my children were her surrogate grandchildren. I hope I can live up to their examples with my own daughter(s)-in-law (hoping that #1 son will eventually marry, too).

The negative mother-in-law stories, unfortunately, are probably more common -- I know the jokes about them are. Yet, right now, I can't think of any. Can anyone help me out? Sorry, Vee, that your MIL was so acidic. Mercy!

I heard about the downed F/A-18 Hornet, so I'm sure DS#2 knows about it. It's a Navy/Marine Corps plane. J's in the Air Force, so I don't know how many flyers he knows in the other services. I'll ask him. I hope your DH's relative wasn't one of the downed aviators.

Lydia, sometimes I wonder just how much is misapprehended. So much gets lost over time.

In the midst of this quite interesting discussion, I wonder if we are not blurring the distinction between stereotype and archetype. I think of a character as a stereotype when the writer makes the inaccurate assumption that all people with a certain trait (career, race, social position) are therefore alike in all other ways. For example, all librarians are dowdy and prim; all confirmed bachelors are gay; all policemen eat doughnuts. I would definitely consider these to be stereotypes

An archetype, on the other hand, is a traditional established character. An example might be the poor but honest boy who makes good; the ugly duckling who grows into beauty and acceptance; or the clever amateur detective who astounds the police. We see these characters appear over and over, filling their archetypal role but not always having the same traits.

I'm not sure why the distinction seems important to me, but it does. I have a great respect for the archetype in fiction, particularly when the author comes up with a clever new way to use them. The stereotype interests me much less.

Rosefolly

Rosefolly, the distinction between archetype and stereotype is blurred even by the dictionaries that are supposedly defining them. Most of them give the primary meaning of archetype as:The original pattern or model of which all things of the same type are representations or copies, a prototype. (from Merriam-Webster, other dictionaries have very similar wording) But several of them also include a meaning of archetype, in broad terms, as being a stereotype. Stereotypes can be accurate or inaccurate, according to opinion. Seems to leave a lot of room for debate, doesn't it? :-)

I like your distinctions, Rosefolly. They make sense. If they are important to you (universal), I see them as a valuable way to differentiate between what interests you and what doesn't.

Freida, I find the 'repressed' stereotype interesting, but probably outdated.
Also interesting is your comment about sweets (better known as lollies here). We are certainly fond of them, but I would have thought only as much as Americans. Now beer and wine are a different matter!
Chris, you will be delighted to know that my DH is indeed big, quiet, highly competent, handsome, but alas, not available to you *VBG*

Rose, I do like your distinction between stereotype and archetype.

Kath,I married one of those Aussie hunks, too, but not a quiet one!
I nearly choked on my cornflakes when I read where Friedag asked if you were repressed. I automatically thought she was referring to sexual repression! I couldn't wait to read your reply!
I agree with you that this social repression is outdated. I did what I wanted, coming from an English family of strong women, I assumed that was the norm. The previous generation of Australian women whom I met when I first arrived did seem to have rather more subservient roles which were not so acceptable to the Sixties women. These girls had travelled, spent working holidays in Europe and therefore had a more worldly view of women and their places in society. The young men likewise. This and the influx of migrants, did, I believe, bring about a change of attitudes.

Kath, you hold onto your hunk even if he leaves for work clad in a blue singlet, baggy shorts and bush hat around which a line of corks dangle fetchingly.
He's probably clutching a tinny which he will throw at a passing kangaroo from the Ute (Sp) window.
I see you as tough and feisty, swearing like a trooper as you run your million-acre sheep station single handed (your old man is out prospecting for rare minerals). Your fair-haired, blue eyed kids are taught by the 'school of the air' and all your medical needs are met by the Flying Doctor "Come in Wallabulla Base." Often you have to perform quite complicated operations by the light of a hurricane lamp held by your loyal 'black boy', while a distant voice talks you through the procedure. But hey, you'll be up at dawn shearing ten thousand sheep; how difficult can an amputation be? "You did say the left leg was crook, didn't you Bruce?"

I wonder what is the US stereotypical view of people from England (as opposed to 'Gt. Britain') . . especially if you have never been to this "green and pleasant land"

Rosefolly, I, too, like your thoughts on archetypes. Immediately my mind jumped to the Jungian archetypes of myth and folktales - my favorite forms of storytelling. Check out the wiki on Archetypes. Far from comprehensive, but interesting all the same. It calls stereotypes a simplification of archetypes.

OT Rosefolly, what's your opinion of Knockout Roses? I'm not much impressed with the one I have in a not quite full sun location. Not a single bloom on it at the moment.

Frieda, I don't know if the mothers/wives of serving officers and men in the armed forces are portrayed in a stereotypical way in books and films (probably they are in 'War' movies) but it must demand a certain courage of those left at home to watch and wait. We see eg's of this almost daily with our forces in Afghanistan and, in the US where your troop numbers are SO much greater . . .apparently you have more military 'personnel' than Russia and China combined . . . the fortitude needed must be immense: I don't think I could face it.
DH's young relative was in the lead Hornet when the 'wing plane' went down. He was able to see the wreckage and radio in the co-ordinates. The crew were in the sea for about four hours until located.
This lad has a twin brother in the US Army (ex West Point) so the parents have double worries but are justifiably proud of their boys.

I've been to your green and pleasant land, Vee, as you know. I think one stereotype Americans cherish is that the English are incredibly polite and at the same time have a very dry, caustic sense of humor.

And to follow up, of course all your houses are cold and all you ever drink is tea, alternating with port or sherry.
And also that you wear a lot of "woolies." ;-)

Yes Mary, you are right about the cold houses and woollies and don't forget wellies. I think we have moved on slightly since you visited in the early '60's. Many of us have central heating, more of us have discovered coffee . . .though too often from places like Starbucks, Costa etc and sherry and port have lost nearly all their appeal. People now drink bucketfuls of wine and the 'young' quaff anything containing alchohol.
And as for our manners . . . ;-( ;-(
Do many US RP'ers find the English sense of humour quite beyond them?

Well, Kath and Annpan, it's good to know that the repression of Australian women is greatly exaggerated or pretty much a relic.

As for Australian lollies: Your shops have a worldwide reputation. I'll mention that I'm going down to Brisbane or Melbourne for a few days, and the instantaneous reaction is "Oh, could you please bring me some Tim Tams?" or whatever of many different candies that I've never heard of. Australian expats get very nostalgic for their familiar treats and say American candy stores are big disappointments. Non-Australians in the know agree that Australians have the biggest and best variety -- their largest packages put American jumbo- and king-sizes to shame. I was skeptical until I saw 'em!

It's true that Americans like sweet things, but our national weakness seems to be more for fried and salty things. It's a big problem for us, as I'm sure you've heard.

Friedag, my sister wanted to use that passage from the Book of Ruth in her wedding ceremony, reciting it to her husband-to-be. She had attended other weddings where it was used and thought it was so beautiful. But when she was reminded that it was originally spoken by a daughter-in-law to her mother-in-law, she quickly nixed that idea. She already suspected that her future mother-in-law was going to be all kinds of trouble.

I can think only of a TV show titled "Mothers-in-Law" that was mostly about the stereotypically bad ones. No books come to my mind. Did Shakespeare have a nasty mother-in-law character?

I like my mother-in-law...in very small doses.

Veer, I have been to England one time, when I was a teenager on a school trip. We were supposed to learn about our English heritage, but we were herded from one historical site to the next on such a tight schedule that I barely had time for any impressions of the "real" England to register. My stereotypical views of England all come from books, movies and TV shows. They are probably all the usual ones - people obsessed with class and status, unappetizing foods with silly names, big fancy houses or very tiny, cramped ones and not much in between. They do not show the in betweens on television very often. Why is that?

My husband thinks Monty Python is the best comedy ever. He has watched every episode dozens of times. Meh! I think some of the stuff is funny but most of the "humour" eludes me and the style gets old very quickly, IMHO. I hope you do not mind me saying this, Veer, English humour can be very warped.:)

Vee, I so enjoyed your take on Aussies. I recall that story. Bruce chucked a sickie to go surfing, got caught in a rip which swept him out to sea. He got his leg mauled by a shark but used the leg-rope on the board as a tourniquet, swam 10 kilometres to shore when he was spotted and rescued by an off-duty lifeguard (heroes are generally off-duty for some reason!)who put him into the 4-wheel drive and ran him to Kath's property for that amputation.
I think that covers the 'surf and shark' bit?

Annpan, I didn't realise there was already a 'real' story about Bruce and his amputation . . . I just made it up. ;-)

Lydia, as you say, I think these 'whistle-stop tours' do little more than give a over-view of a country and too often we come away with some distorted recollections eg lumpy beds, cold food, rude waiters that stick with us forever.
You are not alone in not appreciating Monty Python. I never found their stuff all that funny. I always had the impression that the 'actors' thought they were doing us a great service by sharing their huge talents/egos.
I quite agree that our sense of humour can be difficult to appreciate, perhaps it is because we tend to be very self-deprecating/cynical and mocking. It used to be instilled in us from birth. Of course the modern generation is going the other way and children are praised to the skies, seldom ticked-off and grow up to believe the world owes them a living. I'd better get down from my soap/rant/box right now.

Re Mothers-in-Law. There is the old 'stand-up comic' joke which always begins "Take my Mother-in-Law. Yes, please take her anywhere . . ."

Here is a link that might be useful: UK Mother-in-Law jokes all in bad taste

Gee, I had better call the Flying Doctor on the pedal radio to get instructions for the amputation. I've got the saw boiling in the sheep trough as we speak!

That's very interesting about the lollies. When we lived in Wales I don't recall thinking there was a lack of sweeties available, so maybe the UK is similar. I know that I find European chocolate frustrating as it dissolves in the mouth too quickly. Apparently Aussie choc has more cocoa butter to make it melt at a higher temperature to suit our climate, which also makes it last longer.
Timtams are a national treasure, the best chocolate biscuits to be found.

Here is a link that might be useful: Timtams

Vee, I made that story up too! Although similar things have happened.....
Amen to Kath's comment about Timtams. I got my daughter to bring 6 assorted packets to the UK when she visited! Later, a local store imported them but at such a prohibitive price I could only buy them as a treat!

Oh, I am so glad to hear I am not the only one who does not find Monty Python funny.

As for English humor, in general, Vee, I do find it rather cynical and mocking, as you wrote. I am getting well used to it, however, over the past months, as you could well imagine....

Being a German-American, I possess no sense of humor, at all. It is an underdeveloped or completely absent sense among those of my national origin. Midwestern German-Americans are the worst, as we are too busy watching our corn and soybeans grow, raising our enormous hogs and turning them into bacon and sausage, and pestering politicians into thinking we are an important constituency that we have nary a thought for anything humorous. So runs the stereotype.

Naturally I do not understand Monty Python, either.

Vee, I appreciated your comments re military families. I didn't respond earlier because I was still sorting it out.

Friedag, you made me snort my soda!!

It's true that people (in TX) sometimes have a tough time deciphering English humor. At times, I have had to stop and explain that what I said just then was actually a joke and then go on. I am proud of my English sense of humor and have been told that others like it (when they get it). In fact, my boss actually put on my job evaluation that it was one of the best things about me. :-)

Humour does vary from place to place, and person to person. When I first came over to the US, I thought that the American sense of humor (or at least the one I was exposed to here) was very "pie-in-the-face" and it took awhile to 'translate' my British dry subtle humor for people here. Now, with the internet and international travel much easier, the jokes fly a lot more easily. Most of my jokes tend to be puns and smarty-pants comments more than anything, and I think they can be honed in any country. :-)

I have had to become rather an expert in Monty Python as a lot of Texans link English = assumed expert in MP sketches.

And I have a great M-I-L (altho, like Lydia, in small doses is best)..!

Like Liz, I have found most American humour (humor??) to be either a bit too physical for my taste, or not enough of a surprise. I love the British dry humour, and my favourite comedy shows are those that rely on word jokes and puns, like Yes Minister and Blackadder. I have always been a bit surprised that Seinfeld was such a hit in the US as it is much more subtle in a lot of its humour than most American shows IMHO, although a lot of Jewish humour is word based, so maybe it's that.

Also IMO, the best of Monty Python is hilarious, but if you watch the original series, there are quite a lot of 'misses'. Again, many of my favourite sketches are those I first heard on record (yes, one of those old black vinyl things) so are entirely reliant on the words to be funny. Some of the best are Cheese Shop (Wensleydale? Oh, that's my name!), the Parrot Sketch (he's pining for the fjords), Novel Writing with my unbeloved Thomas Hardy and Oscar Wilde and Whistler.

Their films MP and the Holy Grail and The Life of Brian were also spot on for me. When my children were eventually old enough to watch these, they spent the first viewing saying 'THAT'S where you got that from' over and over *VBG*
Many of their songs were terrific too, my favourites there being the Accountancy Shanty, the Philosophers' Song and of course, 'Always Look on the Bright Side of Life'.

Lydia, I hope your nose is all right. Thanks, you may be the only one. :-)

Python always struck me as crude and juvenile, too much slapstick and too many sight gags -- a giant disembodied foot coming down to squash something, striking off arms with swords, etc. The wordplay could be clever but, as Vee said, not as clever by half as the comedy crew thought it was being. It's too manic for my taste. Maybe it would be more interesting to listen to the sketches, as Kath first did, than to view them. I don't know. I suspect that it's just not my thing, but I know plenty of American MP fanatics.

The word that I think most accurately describes a lot of English humour is 'sarcastic'. The first few weeks I lived in England, I was puzzled when the English seemed to be angry when speaking to each other, even when they were apparently just chatting. Nah! Sarcasm was just normal conversation.

Humor is peculiar.

OT - Chris, since you asked, I'm not a big fan of Knockout roses, but they have their place. They were bred for people who want some colorful roses in the garden, but don't necessarily enjoy working in their garden. They don't have much scent or IMO an interesting form, but they are resistant to the rose disease black spot and do well in many areas with very little work. A sister and I planted one once in my parents' garden, but it didn't stand up well to winter cold in their climate without protection. In general I think there are more interesting choices for the casual gardener. (And many, many more choices for the enthusiast!) If you would like to discuss this further, send me a note off the forum. I think I've rambled on off topic for long enough!

To those of you who actually prefer to discuss books, thanks for your kind patience. It is very easy to distract me with rose talk.

Rosefolly

Friedag, my husband's comment, "Drier than a popcorn f-rt."

Lydia, I don't think I've ever heard that expression.

I figure there are subtleties in every culture's humor. We can congratulate ourselves when we 'get' the humor and feel smug when other's don't.

Ummm, the gremlins are still messing with my posts. My one just previous to this is almost incoherent, as chunks were apparently eaten by those creatures. I read through Kath's eloquent estimation of Python's funniest bits, and then moved on to my own comments. I was sure that I had expressed my appreciation to Kath, but it's not there. And I'm horrified that I sound as if I think Kath's opinion is nuts when my opinion is so very different. So, Kath, please accept my apology! I'm most curious about any skit that could incorporate your 'unbeloved Thomas Hardy'. :-)

Anyway, if you all think it's time to give this thread a wrap, I want to thank you for a great run! I learned all sorts of things, including about Knockout roses! I will be out of pocket for the next few weeks. Best wishes to you all.

Frieda, I have tried to post many times over the past few days, and every time I entered to Preview message, I ended up at the home page for Glyphs!
I wasn't at all bothered by what was or wasn't in your post, it's all fun.

I have attached a link for the MP sketch of Novel Writing. It may not travel outside the Commonwealth very well as it is based on cricket commentary, but I can really imagine Hardy writing like this *g*

Here is a link that might be useful: Monty Python's Novel Writing