MORE (major) SPOILERS -- and hopefully some explanations ....

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colormeconfused --

I'm not so sure about that. Thing is, as it said in the book, the wand chooses the wizard (meaning its wielder). One way to take a wand's allegiance (for the Elder Wand anyway) is to defeat its current master. Another is to steal the darned wand. (Grindelward or Grindel-whatsisface stole the wand but Dumbledore beat him so Dumbledore became the master of that wand). What this comes down to is one must TAKE a wand from its owner AGAINST its owner's will. This DISARMS (and thereby defeats) the owner of the wand.

Ok, but it looks like one only has to BEAT the current master of the wand or to STEAL the wand to get that wand's allegiance (again, we're talking the Elder Wand here). So, Malfoy, in HBP, disarmed Dumbledore (DD) at the tower. If you look it up, DD froze HP and this gave Malfoy a chance to Disarm DD. So, Malfoy, by beating DD, became the master of the wand even though Malfoy...

Dynomutt, I see what you're saying. That was my first determination, but then I decided it wasn't complicated enough. *hehe* After thinking about it more, I concur with your conclusion.

Dynomut, thanks for the explanation, it's all a lot clearer now! I am going to read the book again - I think I will print out your explanation and refer to it as I go along.

Great job with the spoiler alert, everyone. I don't think anyone could inadvertently read anything on this thread - it is as well-protected as if it had a charm on it!

All of the spoilers I inadvertently read or heard before I got the book were wrong!

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Here are my 'Best Bits' from Book 7:

Bits I cried over:
When Dobby died.
When Luna raised her Patronus to help Harry,Ron and Hermione with theirs near the Forbidden Forest.
When Harry saw that Tonks and Lupin were lying next to Fred.
Dumbledore's conversations with Snape when he realised how much Snape loved Lily 'After all this time?' 'Always,' said Snape.
Snape's last request to Harry 'Look.....at.......me' so that the last thing he saw was Lily's eyes.
Practically the whole of the 'The Forest Again' chapter, especially when he asked Neville to kill the snake, when he used the Rememberance Stone, and when he asked 'Will it hurt?'
At the line: 'Albus Severus........... you were named for two headmasters of Hogwarts. One of them was a Slytherin and he was probably the bravest man I ever knew'. (That bit still brings tears to my eyes when I read it).

Bits I laughed out loud over:
Auntie Muriel. Especially her remark about the appearance of Xenophilius Lovegood: 'He looks like an omelette'.
When Remus and Tonk's baby's hair started to change colour.
Percy's question 'Am I too late? Has it started?'
Lupin proudly showing the picture of his baby, to try to ease the tension between Percy and the Weasleys.
The vision of Professor McGonagall racing down the corridor, ordering an army of desks to 'CHARGE'.
Professor Trelawny using her crystal balls as weapons, shouting 'I have more!'

Bits I cheered at:
When Kreacher was won round, and started keeping Grimmauld Place clean and tidy.
When I read the sentence 'Are - you - mental?'
When Ron destroyed the Locket Horcrux.
Neville's new courage, and leadership of Dumbledore's Army.
When Harry returned to the Room of Requirement, and many familiar faces were there.....Oliver Wood, Katie Bell, Bill, Fleur, the Weasleys etc.
When Percy turned up.
When Ron opened the Whomping Willow using the 'Wingardium Leviosa!' spell.
When all the magical creatures came out to defend Hogwarts.
When Neville killed Nagini.
When Mrs Weasly shouted 'NOT MY DAUGHTER, YOU B***CH!'

Bits I gasped at:
Finding out that the Dumbledores lived at Godric's Hollow.
Finding out that Snape was 'that awful boy' from Petunia's past.
Finding out that the Doe Patronus was Snape's.

Dynomutt, I intended in my earlier post to tell you that I not only came to the same conclusion about the Elder wand but that I also agree with your explanation of the period of time in which Harry was "dead."

I found it fascinating that during the time that Harry spent with Dumbledore that Harry and Dumbledore weren't the only ones there. The mewling child/creature on the ground was Voldemort, in my opinion, but was it Voldemort himself or was it the part of Voldemort's soul that had attached itself to Harry and had been destroyed? What was so interesting to me was that Harry appeared there unblemished (a reflection of his character and motives, perhaps?) while Voldemort was reduced to a hopeless, pathetic creature that was beyond saving.

Any thoughts to help me make up my mind on this? On the one hand, when Harry was "dead," Voldemort also suffered a collapse and was unconscious, so he could have been the revolting creature. On the other hand, in their final confrontation when Harry tells Voldemort he should be a man and make an attempt at showing remorse, he states that he's seen what Voldemort will be if he doesn't express remorse.

colormeconfused -- my response and below. Sorry about this but I have to take precautions just in case someone who hasn't finished the book reads this by accident.

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Ok, the child/creature was the part of V's soul that was in HP. And I think it was the part that got destroyed -- thing is, as DD said, from that station (King's Cross), one can "go on". HP can easily go on by taking a train. V's soul, CLEARLY cannot take a train so his soul's kind of stuck in the limbo of the King's Cross station.

And HP being unblemished while at King's Cross makes sense -- the scar is the imperfection and, hence, the symbol of V's soul in HP. But since V's soul is now dead, then HP's soul is now completely his own, hence the lack of a blemish.

Ok, V suffered a collapse and was unconscious after "killing" HP because .... Lily Potter's enchantment was still operative! So V's curse "killed" HP but also rebounded back to him BECAUSE it was directed at HP and because it DID hit HP. When V attacked HP again (the final time), V's curse NEVER hit HP so the full force of it hit V.

It's kind of weird -- it's as if .... if you're ready to die, then you WON'T die but if you're NOT ready to die, then you WILL die. So, since HP was ready, then he didn't but since V wasn't ready, then he did.

Oh, and I think what HP meant there was that he saw how V would be kind of stuck at King's Cross station, between life and death but being neither.

(Hey, did you get the whole King's Cross Station? JKR said that HP's character came to her "fully formed" by the time she got to King's Cross Station!)

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Dynomutt, I think there were many sly references in the book, including the King's Cross Station reference, that Rowling threw in tongue-in-cheek. I know I didn't catch them all, but a careful re-reading will probably reveal more that I didn't notice the first time.

Am I the only one who keeps re-reading the last few chapters? I can't let go!

Murraymint, I laughed out loud when Mrs. Weasley called out Bellatrix. I also admit that I sniffed a little when Dobby was killed. Likewise, when the dying Snape told Harry to "....look....at....me," it just about did me in.

I was surprised that at the end, when Harry, Ron, and Hermione ran to the headmaster's office, that Snape, being the current headmaster and being dead, wasn't in one of the portraits. I think I longed in some way for Harry to see Snape express his approval of what Harry had accomplished after all the years that he made no secret that he disliked Harry.

Am I the only one who keeps re-reading the last few chapters?

No! I'm the same - re-reading from the The Lost Diadem onwards. It was so nice to get back to Hogwarts!

Oh, Dobby....!! That cracked me up...

I haven't really got time to join the discussion - I am meant to be on holiday, but the hotel's got an internet terminal in reception, and no-one is using it at the moment.

A few things I thought were a bit "yeah, right" - like escaping Gringotts on a dragon....! But a great escape, nonetheless.

The bodycount was a bit jarring - but it's probably right. I was pleased to see Dudley start to become the beginning of a human being - and I thought the idea that Petunia was jealous of her sister Lily was very good. Explained a lot.

Well, I'm going to bed now, and back to the pool tomorrow. But I had to check in! (How sad is that, eh?)

Martin, I wondered whether you received your copy of the book. I'm glad Harry found you, even though you are far from home.

Although there were plenty of deaths in the book, I wasn't surprised at all and didn't find it to be excessive. After all, how could there be an epic battle between good and evil without loss of life and without some of those lost being characters that we've come to know and care about?

colormeconfused --

I think there's a bit of a lag between the death of a headmaster and the appearance of the headmaster's portrait. I'll have to check but I don't think it's automatic. Wait -- I just check HBP and it looks like DD's portrait turned up quite soon after he died. Weird.

Martin --

I agree. Escaping Gringott's on a dragon? Hmmmm...... a tad easy if you ask me. ;-)

As for the bodycount, it was a tad high but it fits. I mean it's like an Armageddon isn't it? And yes, there HAS to be some casualties -- both good guys AND bad guys. But man .... that's a lot.

From all the dark warnings about the death of major characters, I was holding my breath about the main three. I was virtually certain that JKR would not do in Harry, if only because it was intended to be a children's series and such an ending would never wash. But I was mortally afraid that Ron or Hermione might die. Thus, while I'm sad about Fred and the rest, I am relieved at the same time about the core group.

I had no other guesses about this final book, except that my money was on Snape turning out to be "good". Everything else was up in the air for me. Made it all the more exciting.

Snapes story is the most touching to me of the whole book. I wanted to see his portrait too- and the naming of Albus Severus brought tears to my eyes. Another favorite bit is Kreacher's transformation; just so sad that he went unloved for such a long time but blossomed under praise and kindness.

I am somewhat annoyed that we had several pages of Harry's kids but no hint of what Harry and Ron now do in life.
Or who is raising Teddy. Or what happened to Luna.
Oh well, the door definitely seems open for the pack and Scorpio to continue the saga. And LV still exists somewhere under a bench...
The elder wand is still fuzzy to me, I need to reread all that for the 5th time now.

Hello all, this is the first time I am posting, but I finished the last book and I wanted to talk about it, but noone I know reads the series, so here I am.

As far as LV is concerned, I think that HP saw him at Kings Crossing as he was, because all that remained of his soul was Nagini and himself at that time. Once the other two parts were killed, he was obliterated. However, it also may be foreshadowing of the form he will take in the afterlife.

I agree with the comment on how Neville was able to pull the sword from the sorting hat. I thought the goblinhad it. It wasnt in the Headmasters Office like in Chamber of Secrets. I think it ould have been more realistic to have him killed with one of the fangs that Ron and Hermoine retrieved from the Basilisk(that somehow made it through the fire).

I am enjoying reading everyones posts.

I was wondering about the sword too. I did think almost right after I hit submit that I was wrong about LV at Kings Cross - that is all that is alive of his soul -but if Rowling wanted to bring him back I'm sure she will have a twist.

I would have liked more info about the Goblins also, are they after Harry now that the sword has been taken from them?

Welcome, esther88.

At first, I was puzzled as to why the goblin was no longer in possession of the sword. Then I remembered that in The Chamber of Secrets, after Harry pulled the sword (which was Godric Gryffindor's) out of the Sorting Hat during his duel with the basilisk, Dumbledore told him that only a true Gryffindor could have pulled it from the hat. In a sense, Voldemort led to his own destruction when he put the Sorting Hat on Neville's head. Neville was alone, between the Hogwarts forces and Voldemort and his cohorts, because he had bravely rushed forward in an effort to kill Nagini but was disarmed by Voldemort. He had no weapon, yet he knew that Nagini must be slain. His courage allowed him to pull the sword from the Sorting Hat, in my opinion.

As far as the Elder wand goes, as I stated earlier, it gave me fits at first. Then, after I posted, I thought about it more and had come to the conclusion that dynomutt had. My biggest hang up about it was trying to figure out why Harry was master of the Elder wand. In short, I believe (and I think dynomutt will agree) that when Harry Disarmed Draco of his normal wand against his will at Malfoy Manor, that meant that any wand which had allegiance to Draco would transfer its allegiance to the one who disarmed him. Draco had only won the Elder Wand's allegiance because he had Disarmed Dumbledore against his will during the confrontation at the end of The Half-Blood Prince. Although Draco never touched the Elder Wand and it was, in fact, buried with Dumbledore, the Elder Wand owed its allegiance to Draco until he himself was Disarmed by Harry.

Concerning the epilogue: I know many were disappointed that it didn't have more info, but one criticism I've read several times is that Harry&Co are depicted as presumably living ordinary lives; "bourgeouis" and "middle-class" are the terms seen. I got from the series that Harry intensely desired an ordinary life and defeating Voldemort was necessary for everybody to have one if they wanted. After all he's been through as a teen, Harry deserves a quiet, prosperous life.

In the epilogue, one thing I liked was that Harry's kids hadn't been told how famous he was. Imagine when they get to Hogwarts and the other kids hear that their last name is Potter!

It was also comforting to see many of the characters living happy lives in the future. That made it easier to put the book down when I was finished.

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I have no complaints. I thoroughly enjoyed it. I, too, feared that Ron might die and was relieved when he didn't. I really liked the beginning; talk about starting with a bang!

Martin said:
"Oh Dobby!! That cracked me up..."

On this side of the pond that means "it really made me laugh." Surely that's not what you meant, was it, Martin? I almost found that part sadder than when Fred died.

I liked the complicatedness of the ending ... it made me stop and think. I didn't get a chance to reread the whole series before reading this book, but I did revisit a couple of the books and I'm really glad I did. I only wish I had taken the time to reread the whole series. I didn't realize how much I had forgotten.

I both loved and hated the epilogue. The info was great--the telling just seemed sappy and out of place somehow.

The casualty list certainly was high, but on reflection I was glad she wrote it that way. TV and video games have given us way too much violence without consequence. Problems are solved in half an hour minus commercials, and if you die, use another life... no problem. I think it's good for us to hurt over the real losses of war and evil.

I am very thankful for this thread. I have only read the first book, and have seen the five movies. I knew I wasn't going to read the book, but I wanted to understand what my DH would be saying when he finished. This helps, a lot!

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I have a question and I am hoping to get an snswer or two :) Was anyone else as surprised as me regarding Dumbledore's true story? He always seemed to be presented as a kindly, very wise wizard who served as a father figure/mentor to Harry. then in book 7 ...yikes we learn all of this stuff about him. Snape was always represented as rather ambiguous..Mostly nasty with brief flashes of good (very brief) and I know there has been a lot of debate on the fan sites as to whether Snape was good or evil..but the only controversy I ever saw on Dumbledore was whether he was really dead or not. Now all of a sudden we see a whole other side of him and I was completely not expecting that. Was I the only one who didn't think Dumbledore wasn't what he appeared to be?

Abbey, one of the aspects of these novels I particularly liked was that everyone had feet of clay. A flirtation in youth with the dark side seems innocuous. Sacrificing Harry to defeat the dark side was a hard but necessary choice and Dumbledore did all he could with the Deathly Hallows to give Harry a chance to survive. And now I'm suddenly recalling Ron's sacrifice of the Knight (himself) to get Harry on to find the Sorcerer's Stone of immortality. We see a lot of sacrifice in the Harry Potter saga, don't we? And a lot of meaningful twists and ironies once the story is all told?

I was surprised at Dumbledore's history. I wasn't expecting that at all. But to overcome the dark side of oneself is greater than to have no dark side to overcome so perhaps Dumbledore is all the greater for having done that.

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Dumbledore's past didn't surprise me. In fact, I actually kind of liked it -- it highlighted that, well, in real life not everything is black or white. Those who you thought were unspeakably evil and bad turn out to be, well, not bad.

And then those who you thought were good and righteous were not as lily-white as you thought.

The neat thing is that this doesn't just apply to Dumbledore or to Snape -- it also applied to Ron and Kreacher. Ron showed fairly realistic issues -- he had them before but he never ran out on Harry or Hermione before. And Kreacher? I mean, if you looked at Kreacher in the previous books, he was jujst this odious, malevolent creature. And yet he was only someone misunderstood and abused.

I was actually heartened to see that this last book was a lot more nuanced than the previous books. I think part of the strength of the previous books was in the certainty that they provided -- Snape was going to be evil and will be unjust ot HP, Dumbledore will come to the rescue and will always be wise and good, and, whatever happened, Ron and Hermione will be at Harry's side. This book kind of shattered a lot of these -- Snape's actions now make sense and one can't really begrudge him (well, maybe a bit) his hatred of Harry, Dumbledore's now a more human character with human flaws, subject to temptations, the lure of power, etc., etc. And Ron? Ron is also human -- he IS loyal and brave but he thinks for himself and his decisions aren't always (in retrospect) correct.

Instead of a seeming Manichaeistic world of only light and dark, of good and evil, the last book showed that all creatures are shades of gray - even the Malfoys are shown in a semi-positive light! And yes, the fact that one's actions have consequences are shown in the book. We may not like the consequences but sometimes one can't do anything about them. Harry didn't want all those people and creatures to die but he had to do what he had to do, almost regardless of the consequences.

Interestingly enough, it would seem that those who only saw the "clear" light and dark of things were those who lost. Voldemort thought that his thirst for power was...

I guess I wasn't so surprised that Dumbledore had feet of clay (as we all do) as the fact that I didn't see that coming at all. Everyone else, Snape, Harry, Ron, etc. had moments where their behavior was less than perfect, but it just seemed to me that Dumbledore always seemed to be this all knowing, all wise father figure. Maybe I missed the clues but Dumbledore's moment finally came. To see how he overcame his youthful behavior and beliefs only made him more powerful and wise and a better mentor to Harry.

Favorite part in the whole book: Snapes patronus. I loved the way it showed his soul as beautiful and pure yet completely hidden. I like Dumbledores remarks because Snape doesn't want anyone to know the best part of him.

I liked that part, too, Bumblebeez, although I must confess that I've always had a soft spot for Snape. Even before the explanations of his behavior (such as James and the others picking on him), I always felt a certain sympathy and even kinship with him in his role as an outsider.

And it doesn't hurt that Alan Rickman plays him in the movies :-)
When Draco disarmed Dumbledore in the Half Blood Prince, could that have been the Elder Wand? And Draco had it all the time? But LV didn't know that and thought Dumbledore still had it?
Don't have time right now to search for the answers!

Bumblebeez --

Yes, when Draco disarmed Dumbledore, it WAS the Elder Wand but the wand went over the parapet and onto the grounds. If you'll remember, they were in one of the towers at the end of the HBP.

I imagine someone retrieved the Elder Wand and reunited it with Dumbledore's body when he was buried.

Draco NEVER had the Elder Wand. He disarmed Dumbledore, the wand went over the parapet, and the wand got buried with Dumbledore until LV took it from the tomb.

Oooooh, bumblebeez, you are so right. It certainly doesn't hurt that Alan Rickman plays Snape in the movies. It doesn't hurt at all.

Abbey, I see what you are saying. With such a complicated backstory for everyone else throughout the novels, Dumbledore's came out of nowhere.

Ladies, I'm right there with you on Alan Rickman.

Did everyone read the interview with Meredith Viera of the Today show??

She gives more details about the epilogue --- AND -- says that eventually she will write an encyclopedia of the Harry Potter "world" and its history!

And don't forget -- the Harry Potter Theme Park opens in Florida in 2009!!

Here is a link that might be useful: Rowlings/Potter interview

Thanks for that link, teacats, it was great!

Thanks for the link. I think what's needed is something akin to The Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe -- an official compendium of who's who, what's what, and what happened to whom but this time for the HP universe.

(Yes, I'm showing my age here and my comic book tainted past!)

A couple more thoughts after doing a bit of rereading -

I enjoyed seeing Ron finally grow up a bit - I always felt he was a bit too much of a dunderhead. I'm glad Rowling gave us some flashes of the man he will soon become.

I feel Harry's story has truly come to an end. I didn't see how Rowling could wrap everything up as neatly as she did. Although I would like to spend more time at Hogwarts, I don't feel I need to know more about Harry.

This was a really great wrap up for a very engaging series....however, the Epilogue was really weak and something that seemed an unnecessary after thought.
It almost ruined the mood after such a fabulous ending.

What is most interesting to me is that everyone on the street who has now finished the series is in a kind of secret glow about it! I expected that they would be chomping at the bit to give away the ending and find that what you get is a grin.
After finishing the last book I now know why!
It would be very difficult to explain how it all ends. There are so many loose threads which were so amazingly rewoven back into the story in unexpected ways that I am at a loss for words to recap it easily.

Brava JK.........it was well worth the trip.

Very satisfying read. The parts when the main 3 were in danger stressed me out, I must say, I was expecting one of them to die.

I think the flayed baby (don't want to visualise it too hard) was the little part of Riddle's soul that had existed in Harry.

So Mrs. Weasley must have used the Avada Kedavra spell on Bellatrix?

And I still don't understand how Dumbledore's portrait knew of the correct date of Harry's leaving.

Back from my holiday. Seems most of what I wanted to say has been said. And yes, of course, I was "cracked up" about Dobby in the upset sense. It can mean both upset and laughing in the UK - the context and tone of voice usually makes it clear. But tone of voice was missing, and context was ambiguous...! Oh, well.

One that does slightly puzzle me. Trelawney threw a crystal ball, and it hit Fenrir Greyback on the head, who "crumpled to the ground and did not move." I'd assumed he'd died, or was at least badly injured. But only at most a couple of hours later, Greyback was with Voldemort when Harry went to meet him - and he reappeared in the fight at the end, going down against Ron and Neville. An editing error? Or do werewolves have VERY thick skulls?

And I'd have liked to see Snape with a picture in the Headmaster's study.

I seem to be in the minority. I liked the epilogue. Not too short, not too long.

Venusia - I still don't understand how Dumbledore's portrait knew of the correct date of Harry's leaving - I'm not sure what you mean by this. The only reference I can find is that Dumbledore's portrait tells Snape to tell the Death Eaters the correct date. It doesn't say that he knew it. This was just the end of a discussion between Snape and Dumbledore's portrait.

Martin - you're right, I just assumed he was the one to tell Snape the date. But I now think it was perhaps the portrait of Phineas that could move between Grimmauld Place and the Headmaster's office that knew it. I don't think Snape could have found out on his own. He does tell LV that his usual source gave him the news.

There is a transcript of a 90 min live webchat JKR did 2 days ago on the Bloosbury site where she expands on the epilogue and on some of the characters' backstory, such as why Snape's portrait wasn't in the office.

Here is a link that might be useful: Rowling webchat July 30

Wow! That answered a lot of questions!

I'm glad she answered the question about all the socks. I'd figured it was for humor.

Still doesn't answer my Greyback question though...! But lots of fascinating bits there.

Martin if wolves are like dogs, they have got thick skulls. My dog has bashed her head quite hard on the door jamb when turning to chase a ball, and it didn't seem to bother her a bit.*g*

Heck, I've been bashed on the head by a 15 foot wooden garage door and it didn't bother me a b.... Hmmmm, wait, maybe....

The cover of Harry Potter et les Reliques de la Mort was revealed on 20 Sept. It's the best of all the HP covers I've seen so far.

Yes, but when was Harry staring out to sea in the book?

At some point during their time at Shell Cottage?

A virtual cigar if you can guess what novel this cover actually graces:

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