No time now...but do have old missal upstairs that is Latin-English. If you don't have an answer by tonight, I will check it out.

Dido, I love research... found a website which gives you the entire procedure for the 'Tridentine Mass', which includes the Misereatur and Indulgentiam. There's a translation alongside the Latin, but as there's a whole lot of other Latin, I've picked out the vital bits for you:

P: Misereatur vestri [tui] omnipotens Deus, et dimissis peccatis vestris [tuis], perducat vos [te] ad vitam aeternam.
R: Amen.

>>>The priest signs himself, saying:

P: Indulgentiam, absolutionem et remissionem peccatorum nostrorum, tribuat nobis omnipotens et misericors Dominus.

R: Amen.

Re the [brackets] - vobis, vestri and vestris are second person plural; tui, tuis and te second person singular.

Hope this is helpful!

Oh, and here is another website of Latin prayers:
http://www.preces-latinae.org/index.htm

Here is a link that might be useful: Tridentine Mass text

I've just been trying to get the 'earth to earth' in Latin, but no luck. Was it ever used like that in Latin? It's from the Book of Common Prayer and therefore was in widespread use in English well before 1850. I don't think it's included in the Roman Catholic funeral rites, but don't take my word for that. I was RC for a very brief and mainly inactive time...

Anyanka, you wonderful person! I've spent almost the entire morning phoning various monasteries, priests, university deps; checking the Internet - and I've hit a blank wall every time. Nobody knows any Latin any more! I actually did Latin to the old O. level, then had to pick it up again at University in order to read English, so I understand about vobis and tuis etc. Though I can't translate very much these days.

There's a drink behind the bar at the Pink Geranium for you when you're next in.

Veronica,

Thank you, too, for your kind offer. I've also put a drink behind the bar for you.

Dido

I'd try a home for retired priests...not sure how I'd go about finding one, but if anyone would remember the Mass, etc., in Latin, that's who would-those who performed it before it was changed to the vernacular.

As a practicing RC whose girlhood was during the Mass in Latin--and with three years of Latin in high school, just want to remind the novelist that the prayers said at a funeral Mass in the 19c would not necessarily be the same as those said in the mid 20c. They are always tweaking things--are doing it again right now. It just depends on how accurate you want your novel to be.

If you are really interested in accuracy, you should consult the library of an RC seminary, preferably a distinguished one with academic as well as theological goals. There are certainly such in both the US and the UK. There they would have books on the evolution of the Mass and various liturgies.

What you are looking for is this: The words the priest would say for what we used to call Extreme Unction, the sacrament administered when someone was dying. The name has been changed decades ago to the Sacrament of the Sick and you don't have to be dying to get it--just ill in mind or body. And it is often given a number of times.

When I was little, every good Catholic home had an Extreme Unction kit--a crucifix with blessed oils and such so the priest would have them immediately available in case of emergency.

""We therefore commit (his or her) body to the ground; earth to earth, ashes to ashes, dust to dust; in the sure and certain hope of the Resurrection to eternal life."

The above comes from The Book of Common Prayer and I lean toward Anyanka's thinking--I don't think these words are used by RC's graveside so you may not find them in Latin. I think there is something about the deceased coming from the dust and to dust you shall return--but I am thinking of the recent funerals I've attended, not ones from the 1850's. Of course, these funerals have run the gamut from Roman Catholic, Russian Orthodox and Southern Baptist (all family, too!) but I don't believe any of them used "ashes to ashes, dust to dust."

Ginny 12,

I'm not writing a novel - I'm dramatising one which was written in the 1850s in French. Just need a priest to be mumbling something reasonably accurate in Latin over a deathbed while the main action goes on in foreground.

Anyanka,

Thanks for your comment on 'Dust to dust' etc. I'll settle, then, for a 'de Profundis' at the funeral which I researched last time I dramatised a 19th century French novel. The nuns knew about that and advised me.

Why do I keep doing 19th century French novels with death scenes and funerals? And I've got another one looming up on the horizon.....

Cece,

Ah, if only.......

Tried 2 monasteries this morning and got young nuns; tried the university RC chaplaincy - alas, non. Tried a famous Priory guaranteed full of Latin experts. Alas - answering machine.

Thanks to you all for your help,

Dido

FWIW, I think the RC ashes line you're thinking of is used when ashes are applied to the forehead on Ash Wednesday: "Remember, dust thou art and to dust thou shalt return" -- at least that's how I remember it from my childhood :) I believe it's even changed since then.

Dido, as ginny says you need the prayers for Extreme Unction/Last Rites.
The 'Book of Common Prayer' is nor RC but C of E (think Cranmer and beautiful English).
Have just come back from an RC funeral of an old friend, and they don't have a 'funeral service' but a 'Mass for the Dead' and of course, it is now in English.
I have just found an ancient RC missal (I knew spending eight years in a convent school would come in useful) and will be in touch with you re the correct words.

Here's a website with (supposedly) the extreme unction/last rites prayers in both English AND Latin :

http://www.saintisidore.org/religious-info/extreme-unction.htm

If you're looking for just traditional Catholic prayers in Latin, try this website :

http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/Strasse/5816/orat.html

Hope this helps! (I haven't seen a Benediction rite since I was in grade school! Tantum ergo, sacramentum, veneremur cernui .... )

Dido - Creighton University in Omaha Nebraska, run by Jesuits. They do a lot of liturgical stuff and still teach the classics. Give a go at their website, and look especially for some one who's surname is O'Connor. May be able to find more information there.

This is interesting to me, as we still use Hebrew prayers in our synagogue (and its not Orthodox), heck even some of the Reform congregations teach them to the kids. So its odd to me that Latin would go so out of favor. I understand why, for the same reason that many synagogues are dropping the practice - people would like to understand the words they are saying. But there is something moving, awe inspiring about those old prayers and tunes. Hearing the cantor chant Kol Nidre on Yom Kippur still sends chills down my spine (esp as I know the history behind the prayer). Plus being able to go to any major city and find a synagogue to visit where you know the exact prayers and can tell exactly where they are in the service, brings the larger world closer. Do those of you who are Catholic feel that Latin should still be used, or do you get those same feelings of awe, and community, through other practices?

Thanks to you all for your help and suggestions. And Dynomutt, that website gives the whole lot. Diolch yn fawr, as we say in Wales.

cindydavid, I'm not RC - was brought up Church of England (much of which is RC in translation, of course) but I had a huge Latin education; also have sung and listened to so many Latin masses in my time that the language does give me a sense of awe.

I'm going to be away as from Sunday, and working like mad on script today & tomorrow so might not be in touch with you all, now, for a while.

Dido

Cindy, I was never a practising Catholic (my parents had stopped attending church almost completely by the time I was born), but had Latin at school and just love the sound of it... There's something magical and mysterious about some of the prayers and 'incantations'; while it seems sensible to want to understand what is actually being said, these things are often more about ritual, rhythm, atmosphere etc than about the actual meaning.

For the same reason, I much prefer the St James bible over more modern translations - they just take the poetry out of the text.

There is also the sense of connectedness to the past by using the old language, be it Hebrew or Latin.

Those were two of the issues raised when the Mass was changed to the vernacular-not being able to go into any service anywhere in the world and know exactly where you were, and the loss of connection with the past and those who went before and sacrificed much. I'm a proponent of the King James version as well-some of the most recent versions make me thing of nothing but "dumbing down" the Scriptures.

Don't mean to get into religion; the following is an explanation--not trying to convert anyone!

I agree with you on the beauty of the King James version, as well as on the values of the Mass in Latin, from a poetic and sacred point of view. But the vernacular is far superior in terms of making our faith meaningful and a constant presence in our daily life.

If I yelled to you that your house was on fire, and did so in Latin or in early 1600s English, how much help would that be to you?

Scholarly research throughout the 20c has enabled much more accurate versions of the Bible to be published. King James is still beautiful for its literary and inspirational value, and has its place, but much less so as a means of communicating with God's people.

The Mass in Latin is a deeply spiritual experience, especially for those of us who remember those days or those who love Gregorian chant. But Mass is not a performance piece; it is an act of worship shared by the people of God, sisters and brothers in faith.

I love it on those rare occasions in my parish when we sing Tantum Ergo or O Salutaris Hostia (and yes, there is still Benediction--and Vespers and Compline and all the rest, tho they are not so easy to find).

But it is the faith of believers that God is speaking to us here and now, plainly and clearly, and we need to understand what he is saying. And the vernacular is the way to go.

Sorry this is so long but I cannot resist adding one more relevant thought. In February, I attended Mass at Our Lady of Waikiki in Hawaii. The priest was native Hawaiian and some of the prayers and hymns were in Hawaiian. I do not speak a word of Hawaiian. On Palm Sunday, I was in Fort Worth, Texas and All Saints, the RC church nearest my hotel, had a Mexican congregation and Mexican priests. Mass was in Spanish. I don't speak a word of Spanish. On Pentecost Sunday, just a few weeks ago, I attended Mass in England, at St. Dominic's in Gloucestershire. Whether I spoke the language or not, the order of the Mass was the same; Communion was the same; the prayers were the same and I could say them in English in my head if I had to. We exchanged the sign of peace with smiles and in different languages. It was a deeply spiritual experience. I was home, however many thousands of miles away from where I live.

ginny, thanks for that explanation. And I agree totally with you - the meaning of the prayers and service should be of utmost importance, and I understand why for that reason, Latin was rejected even in Catholic Churchs.

But I have fond memories of the tunes and prayers we all said in Hebrew at our temple, and suspect some who remember the Catholic Church pre Vatican II would say the same. And my original question was just in surprise that Latin really isn't used much, while we are still using Hebrew quite a bit. Suspect it has more to do with the modern usage then anything (there is a country where we speak Hebrew, there isn't a country -I don't think- where they speak Latin)

And that experience sounds wonderful and moving. Yes, you were home. Amazing how that works!

Cindy-Hebrew lessons are also part of your religious instruction as children, aren't they? So the effort is made to educate the children to understand the worship, rather than adapting the liturgy because the congregation is not as educated as it once was. That's my problem with all the "new" translations of the Bible, written to be "modern"...simplistic and trendy.

Ginny. So you have come and gone to visit us in England.
How was your trip? Please give us some feed back.
Did you know that you could have attended Mass in the private chapel of Berkeley Castle, close to where you stayed?
The present owners are cousins of the original Berkeley family, who's direct line died-out some years ago. The new owner's father(?) married a Catholic and that part of the family are now RC. The local RC's use it as their 'church' on High Days and Holidays.

ccrmrbks: It is the quality of the English translations that bother me the most as well. The 23rd Psalm is a beautiful prayer/poem in the King James translation. Read the version currently used by the Catholic church...verdent pastures just doesn't cut it! "in verdent pastures he gives me respose; Beside still waters he leads me."

The other big teeth clencher is in the Christmas gospel where rather than there being no room in the inn...it now reads "no room in the place where travelers rest". And the Beatitudes are a travesty.

It reminds me of the two step process we were taught to translate our Latin in HS...first word for word, and then making it read smoothly. That first step can be a doozy. The problem with the current translations, is that those who have published them, stopped at the first step.

I enjoyed the Latin, and do like the occsions when we revert to the credo, or the Kyrie Elieson(sp?), or sing "Agnus Dei". In the correct hands, English translations can be just as uplifting.

What is a fly in the ointment...even in English many parishoners sit in their pews, mouths tight shut, so the argument that the vernacular allows for more participation becomes weak.

Ginny - GREAT post! Thank you.

>Hebrew lessons are also part of your religious instruction as children, aren't they? So the effort is made to educate the children to understand the worship, rather than adapting the liturgy because the congregation is not as educated as it once was.

cc, I hadn't thought about that! Yes, from our youngest days we go to Sunday School to learn traditions and celebrations and Hebrew. At 8 or so, we start attending Hebrew School twice a week to really learn the prayers to be ready for our Bnai Mitzvahs. So yes, we learn it as a living language, and for those kids who were paying attention, there is meaning in those prayers

However your second point made me laugh. Believe me, we see the same dumbing down trend in this religion. Even the Conservative synagogue I grew up in is changing the service to make it more understandable. And I guess they have to - esp with the number of interfaith marriages that are in the congregation. Many folks just don't know the religion. But it rankles me (and I'm not even an observant Jew!)

Oh that reminds me - there is a new (relatively) type of Jewish service called Humanitarian Judaism. Sounds great - think of the Unitarian principles combined with the traditions of Judaism. Went to a few services, but was disturbed by their total lack of, well, tradition. Lots of changes are made to the prayers. Then we went to one of their monthly Shabbat dinners. As a newbie, I was invited to light the candles. I did so - in the age old way of waving my hands over the flame, and said the prayer in hebrew. Silence. They looked at me like I told them I had just converted. Ok. Last time I went there. Pity, because I really do like the prinicipals they believe in.

Translations are a real bugaboo. I remember trying to read Beowulf in HS - the translation was horrible. Then a group was reading it a few years back, with the new translation, and what a difference! Same for the Testaments. If you think about it - first written in Aramaic, translated to Greek, then Latin, then English. Gack, no wonder there's going to be more than a few errors. Then when they try to dumb it all down, it loses its meaning, its poetry, its worth.

BTW - did you ever play a translating game? Go to the Google translator, and put in a famous quote from a book (To be or not to be, It was the best of times, the worst of times etc) and chose any language. Then take that translation, put it in again and chose another language. Finaly, take that last translation and choose English again. Oh my. The results are hilarious, and have taught me to be extremely cautious of online translations as well as translations of books in general. It does matter which ones you choose.

Cindy, your commentary reminded me that I have a few Jewish friends who alternate attending services at a local Unitarian Church and a synagogue. One joked he wanted to have all his bases covered. There seems to be quite a lot of amalgamation going on in the US which was unheard of before, as well, with certain protestant churches wanting to reflect "new age" ideas. And your point about translations is well taken....

My perspective may seem odd. I'm a Christian, but I think kids should be taught Hebrew first and Greek second. Latin was a late-comer to the table. As one who has studied Hebrew and Greek at the undergrad and grad school level, I can tell you that original Christianity is much, much closer to Judaism than to Latin Christianity, which began to have a seperate flavor from Eastern Christianity sometime in the latter half of the second century.

One of the strangest things in all of history is this: Distinctly Latin Christianity is based on several mistranslations of Greek and Hebrew idioms. But Rome was the center of power in those days so when Constantine made Christianity the official religion of the empire, the hiearchy then imposed Latin understandings back onto the Greek and Hebrew understandings of the east. It's stranger than the DaVinci code.

It would be like a new religion was started in Mexico. It got popular in the U.S., an English translation of the original writings was made, the American branch of the religion became the most powerful branch and then ordered the Mexicans to re-interpret their original writings to fit the English understanding.

As odd as that may sound, that is what has happened.

Case in point-- the Greek New Testament is very plain that everyone will be ressurected and saved-- everyone, believer, unbeliever, Jew, Greek, Christian, non-Christian, everybody. We may undergo a sort of 'fire' but nothing that lasts forever, and nothing literal-- eastern speech is highly non-literal. The Greek is 'puros aionian'-- a fire that lasts awhile. The Latin renders 'aionian' as 'aeternal,' which completely changes the meaning to 'everlasting fire', completely changes the understanding of God. Instead of a loving God who is in the process of redeeming his entire creation, we get a judge who is going to torture some forever while saving some.

If they had stayed with Hebrew and Greek, we wouldn't have this problem.

Here is a link that might be useful: research site

Thought I'd bump this up as it is another interesting RP discussion of Latin, the root of so much of our English vocabulary. Where else can you have several discussions of Latin going on in a relatively short span of time?