Leilahamaya, Even though you disagree with pretty much everyone in the edible fruit industry, all the many years of research in the field of edible fruit development (and the researchers, like Kaliaman), and the vast majority of anecdotal evidence about some aspects of this subject...some of what you say is correct. You are absolutely correct that the more "messed with" fruit types are the ones that are more likely not to produce offspring similar to their parents. You are also correct that there is some chance that the seed grown plant will produce fruit even better than that of the parent. I believe that's the real breaking point of our thinking though. I realize that this chance is very very very slim in many cases, but I think you may be looking at it as an eternal optimist. (-: All this said, your buddy Robert Wayne Atkins is probably not a good example. He genuinely seems not to understand the definition of the word hybrid. He also seems to mistakenly think that what he calls heirloom varieties (actually, more properly called heirloom cultivars, to avoid confusion with the biological definition of variety) will produce true-to-type offspring. He also seems to have overlooked that most heirloom cultivars are actually the result of significant human hybridizing activity of a long period of time. Finally, I think we should probably not continue this conversation on Garden_love's thread. I don't mind continuing on the "Conversations" side of the forum, if you wish, but I'm getting worried about infringing on Garden_love's space here. What I meant to be a brief courtesy may be becoming more of a burden. If you do wish to talk further, you can email me through GardenWeb or let me know to look for a thread on the "Conversations" side of this forum (I usually only go there on rare occasions).

I have some mandarin orange seeds that I saved from store-bought mandarin oranges a few years ago, I did get one to grow and make a little tree but my dogs chewed it up. They're getting old but might be worth a try, I'd be glad to just send them to you if I had your address, I have stuff to mail them with. I'm zone 4 so not much use me trying to grow citus up here. let me know at mamahack@hotmail.com.

interesting, i have never heard of this tree...well you got me googling it. =) its quite pretty let me think about it. i am trying to find out if it will even grow here, the reading i just googled says zone 4 - 7 and needs some chill in winter...i am in zone 8 and it does get cold here for a bit, but this is after all california and we dont get that much cold. otherwise i am curious and interested, but let me research it a bit.

Thanks for your help and the fotos, marymcp! I think it may be well worth a try.On Internet I found a site that states that the record low for my general area was -26 Celsius one winter, which is more or less around -9 F, the record low for Phoenix according to the chart you posted...and the -26C was registered in Firenzuola, which is higher up and therefore probably colder than my area. What's more, the place I have in mind for the carob tree is on the south-western slope of my garden, very well protected from the coldest north winds. I think I could order one for about 11 euros, so even if it didn't work, it wouldn't be an enormous financial loss, just a bit of a disappointment...regards, bart