True Irene Watts

20 years ago

Hello.

In the United States, it has been said the rose sold as Irene Watts is Pink Gruss an Aachen. I have a book written by Nancy Steen, and I saw a picture of Irene Watts in it.

Is it possible there still are true Irene Watts in New Zealand or Australia? If so, I'd like to get some and see the real flower by myself. Will you tell any information about Irene Watts in New Zealand and Australia?

Thanks in advance.

Rosaline

Featured Answer

goldenwings13

10 years ago

My name is David Stone. From 1978 to 2014 I was Head Gardener at Mottisfont Abbey, England. The rose pictured and purporting to be Irene Watts is, in fact, 'Pink Gruss an Aachen'. I received it from Sangerhausen in the early 1980's and distributed it in the belief that it was the true 'Irene'. However, a few years later, a plant of 'Gruss an Aachen' sported a pink branch the bloom of which proved identical to the "Irene" I had received from Germany! I have yet to find the true china variety, and have been attempting to correct my original error for many years. Unfortunately most nurseries prefer the erroneous name, as it is more appealing than 'Pink Gruss an Aachen' ! However, I keep on trying!

What's in a name? Quite a lot, really! 'Pink Gruss an Aachen' is a beautiful variety in her own right and deserves to be correctly named.

Plant, grow and enjoy!

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Comments (11)

cimmaron
20 years ago
Hi Rosaline,
I have Irene Watts and Gruss an Aachen(not the pink)and they are completely different in growth habit,foliage and bloom.
I do have a pic of Irene somewhere but haven't located it yet-when I do I will post it here for you.
regards
sandie
Wrenroses
20 years ago
I have one Irene Watts rose. I bought it from Ross Roses at Willunga, South Australia. It is described in the catalogue as ( China 1896) Gracefully flat and loose blooms on a compact little bush. Very free flowering.
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Phil - you're missing my main point... Lets take it down to a basic scenario... 1. An exhibitor gets an Irene Watts from a reputable nursery. 2. Takes a fabulous spray to a rose show. 3. They look in the Handbook 2005 and see nothing under Irene Watts 4. They check Modern XI and see: 'Irene Watts', Ch, w, 1896; bud soft apricot-orange; flowers with a button eye, dbl.; Guillot, P. 5. They also look her up in the 2005 AEN and see: 'Irene Watts'. 6. They enter IW into a show and much to their shock - -D/Q. So the exhibitor takes all the information available to them at an ARS show -- enters a rose only to be D/Q'd. Now if the ARS had simply made a notation in the AEN and Handbook: "Irene Watts -- see Pink Gruss an Aachen" there would be no problem. What I'm saying is that let Irene live for one more year until the proper notations are made in the two most important tools that an exhibitor can have. Either that of just stop waisting your time printing them and only use Dobson. Have I made my self clear enough!!!! We should always err on the side of the exhibitor. IW has been receiving OGR trophies for years - -one more is not going shake the foundations of the ARS. In the future, when God sends ARS an epiphany to change a name -- especially one that has won so many trophies and so widely grown - substantiate your changes with as many photos, drawings and notations as possible. And include those changes in ALL publications so everyone is on the same page. I have no doubts that IW that we have in the U.S. is missnamed but I do have my doubts if its really a sport of GAA. My flowers are very different. I think the name change was premature until more research could be done to really find out what this rose really is.
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ClairMatin1 Thank you very much for your beautiful picture! There stiil are true Irene Watts in Europe. In the American Rose Society's magazine, American Rose 2004 August, it reads: it seems very clear that all the plants being grown commercially in the United States and much of Europe as Irene Watts are really Pink Gruss an Aachen. They don't say all the plants in Europe are Pink Gruss an Aachen. Is your Irene from Peter Beales? I'd like to see the true Irene Watts by myself someday! Rosaline
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This, too, comes into the 'For what it's worth' department .... I was just reading Peter Beales 'A Passion for Roses' (published in 2004) and noted the following comment he made in the section on Floribundas - "A few roses are completely timeless, and two of these I must mention here: 'Grüss an Aachen' and its sport 'Pink Grüss an Aachen'. 'Grüss an Aachen' is a superb rose, introduced in 1909, and one of the best cluster-flowered roses ever raised. Its colour is a soft flesh-pink, changing to cream in maturity, and it is fragrant and very free flowering; it is also tidy in habit and perfect for both bedding and group planting, 'Pink Grüss an Aachen' is a much deeper pink but in all other respects exactly the same, and just as charming. I confess to being one of a number of nurserymen who, until recently, have distributed the pink form erroneously as 'Irène Watts', a mistake I regret but have now rectified" So, I wonder where the Beales nursery sourced their 'Irène Watts' stock when they realised that what they had previously sold as that rose was in fact the PGaA? Tricia
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janineJ9
20 years ago
If you can get a hold of Peter Beales' book "A Passion for Roses" by Octopus Publishing Group 2004, it says about this rose: China Rose: Irene Watts, introduced Guillot, France 1896, seedling of Mme Laurette Messimy. Very double, fragrant, blush-pink flowers borne in sizeable clusters. A typical China, with semi-glossy, mid- to dark green foliage on a twiggy, compact, thorny bush. Good as a pot plant and for bedding. Shade tolerant. Fragrant; continuous flowering; height 3 ft x 2 ft - hardy down to Zone 6 (-10 to 0 degrees Farenheit) He said in this book that it is often mistaken for pink Gruss an Aachen.
cimmaron
20 years ago
I found a pic of Irene Watts-a lovely little rose-the blooms are quite large for a China.
{{gwi:2115160}}
regards
saandie
blckrose
10 years ago
Just browsing by and spotted this item: a lovely rose, David, is the one named Irene Watts above but as you say is in fact 'Pink Gruss, etc.'. I think it's probably safe to assume this naming problem will not be sorted in our lifetime, but keep trying. By the way, back in 1996 I visited Mottisfont Abbey with a group of gardening enthusiasts during the brief rose flowering season and although it was a drizzly, cold day I was thoroughly enchanted. In fact if I remember correctly I think I spoke to a gardener there, maybe it was you!
jenpsh1234
10 years ago
last modified: 10 years ago

I discovered the world of roses on this site over ten years ago, spent many hours on it back then, learned so much & got my garden off to a good start. Then I got too busy and now that I have a bit more time, have looked in again and found that Roses in Oz is just as exciting, captivating & informative as ever! Sometimes it's funny too - there was a guy called Larry back then who wrote such funny stuff.

Anyway, just a small outburst totally unrelated to the Irene /Gruss issue but I just wanted to say thanks to one and all, and also to say roses forever!!

(Pic is Bishop Darlington on my Crazy Clint's arbour which is slowly disintegrating!)
blckrose
10 years ago
Indeed a lovely pink, Jen. and a healthy looking bush.
goldenwings13
10 years ago
Hello everyone,

Its great to have prompted so many comments on the 'Irene Watts'/'Pink Gruss an Aachen' debate! Just to clarify my earlier comments. If there is a true 'Irene' out there, then she will be short and slender with a loosely double pinkish bloom and only alight fragrance. She will also be only lightly prickled, in fact a true China hybrid. Anything else is sure to be 'Pink Gruss an Aachen' (as pictured). I would love to believe that 'Irene' is still out there, somewhere!

The rose Peter Beales described, and the stock his nursery still supplies, is 'PGaA', as he himself acknowledged to me. Stock received by Peter from Oz as 'Irene' still proved to be untrue. These two varieties are so dissimilar, except in overall size of the bush, as to settle the confusion over nomenclature once and for all. The problem remains with the choice of names. 'Pink Gruss an Aachen' is just not as attractive an name to a prospective buyer! Come on Nurserymen! Get your act in order!

Good gardening to all!

David
blckrose
10 years ago
No it's a terrible name, why not just call it Aachen? Unless there's another by that name.
User
10 years ago
John Hook thinks that Odee Pink is the "lost" rose, Irène Watts....

True Irene Watts

goldenwings13

Comments (11)

cimmaron

Wrenroses

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