True Irene Watts

20 years ago

Hello.

In the United States, it has been said the rose sold as Irene Watts is Pink Gruss an Aachen. I have a book written by Nancy Steen, and I saw a picture of Irene Watts in it.

Is it possible there still are true Irene Watts in New Zealand or Australia? If so, I'd like to get some and see the real flower by myself. Will you tell any information about Irene Watts in New Zealand and Australia?

Thanks in advance.

Rosaline

Featured Answer

goldenwings13

10 years ago

My name is David Stone. From 1978 to 2014 I was Head Gardener at Mottisfont Abbey, England. The rose pictured and purporting to be Irene Watts is, in fact, 'Pink Gruss an Aachen'. I received it from Sangerhausen in the early 1980's and distributed it in the belief that it was the true 'Irene'. However, a few years later, a plant of 'Gruss an Aachen' sported a pink branch the bloom of which proved identical to the "Irene" I had received from Germany! I have yet to find the true china variety, and have been attempting to correct my original error for many years. Unfortunately most nurseries prefer the erroneous name, as it is more appealing than 'Pink Gruss an Aachen' ! However, I keep on trying!

What's in a name? Quite a lot, really! 'Pink Gruss an Aachen' is a beautiful variety in her own right and deserves to be correctly named.

Plant, grow and enjoy!

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Comments (11)

cimmaron
20 years ago
Hi Rosaline,
I have Irene Watts and Gruss an Aachen(not the pink)and they are completely different in growth habit,foliage and bloom.
I do have a pic of Irene somewhere but haven't located it yet-when I do I will post it here for you.
regards
sandie
Wrenroses
20 years ago
I have one Irene Watts rose. I bought it from Ross Roses at Willunga, South Australia. It is described in the catalogue as ( China 1896) Gracefully flat and loose blooms on a compact little bush. Very free flowering.
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Flat and ribbon-like? If so, It's likely Fasciation, which I'm told can be triggered in otherwise normal roses by weird weather fluctuations. Gaia knows, we have had our share of weird weather fluctuations this year. Here's what Wikipedia says of it: "Fasciation (or cresting) is a condition of plant growth in which the apical meristem, normally concentrated around a single point, producing approximately cylindrical tissue, becomes elongated perpendicularly to the direction of growth, producing flattened, ribbon-like, crested, or elaborately contorted tissue. The phenomenon may occur in the stem, root, fruit, or flower head. Fasciation can be caused by a mutation in the meristematic cells, bacterial infection, mite or insect attack, or chemical or mechanical damage. Some plants may inherit the trait. Fasciation is rare overall, but has been observed in at least a hundred different plant species, including members of Aloe, Celosia, Delphinium, Digitalis, Euphorbia, Forsythia, Primula, Acer, Prunus, Cannabis and many genera of Cactaceae (cactus) and Salix. Cresting results in undulating folds instead of the typical "arms" found on mature Saguaro cactus.[1] Some varieties of Celosia are raised especially for their dependably fasciated flower heads, for which they are called "cockscomb"." Jeri in Coastal Ventura Co., SoCal
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stefanb8,I got the plant in February 2006. I also see only 'Gruss an Aachen' when I look at my Beales' (true) Irene Watts! As to the color difference, anntn6b gave me very important information. Her Nancy Steen's book has black and white photos. Mine has color photos. Maybe the photos in my book were colorized with the automated colorizing programs which anntn6b mentioned in her posting. Jeri, thank you for your interest! And thank you for your information about the Huntington's Teas and Chinas. berndoodle, I felt just the same thing as you mentioned when I first saw the leaves of my TRUE Irene Watts. They are not the leaves of China roses! "Carnation" has China-like leaves. Quite similar to Madame Laurette Messimy's. I got "Carnation" this spring. I also have Madame Laurette Messimy. And I have Archduke Charies which I suppose Irene Watts' pollen parent. I'm going to watch these three varieties closely. Akira
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This, too, comes into the 'For what it's worth' department .... I was just reading Peter Beales 'A Passion for Roses' (published in 2004) and noted the following comment he made in the section on Floribundas - "A few roses are completely timeless, and two of these I must mention here: 'Grüss an Aachen' and its sport 'Pink Grüss an Aachen'. 'Grüss an Aachen' is a superb rose, introduced in 1909, and one of the best cluster-flowered roses ever raised. Its colour is a soft flesh-pink, changing to cream in maturity, and it is fragrant and very free flowering; it is also tidy in habit and perfect for both bedding and group planting, 'Pink Grüss an Aachen' is a much deeper pink but in all other respects exactly the same, and just as charming. I confess to being one of a number of nurserymen who, until recently, have distributed the pink form erroneously as 'Irène Watts', a mistake I regret but have now rectified" So, I wonder where the Beales nursery sourced their 'Irène Watts' stock when they realised that what they had previously sold as that rose was in fact the PGaA? Tricia
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The true 'Irene Watts' was a (probably self-) seedling of 'Mme Laurette Messimy', and so should resemble its parent in growth-habit. I had MLM, and that plant reminded me of "Bermuda Spice" but less robust -- and with different blooms, of course. So I'd say that the true 'Irene Watts' should be of similar growth-habit, and not like 'Gruss an Aachen' at all. Since so many people are already accustomed to getting 'Pink Gruss an Aachen' when they order 'Irene Watts', I don't think "Odee Pink" should be offered under 'Irene Watts' as well, even if it turns out to be the real thing. A similar situation is about to unfold with 'Bloomfield Abundance' now that the real thing has been found. As is often said, it's easier to fool someone than to convince him he's been fooled -- so many people have read descriptions in books and at nurseries of the wrong plant being offered under these names that they accept the imposters as the true identities. I wonder if it may be better to just leave things as they are, and make a little note under the description of the rediscovered true roses' study-names. Otherwise, people who have grown the imposters and perhaps prefer them over the true things will lament about "people changing things for the worse" and such. They have associated the name 'Bloomfield Abundance' with a vigorous sport of 'Mlle Cecile Brunner'. Should the true 'Bloomfield Abundance' turn out to be a less-vigorous disease-prone unscented diva as compared to 'Spray Cecile Brunner', customers will think more about an inferior product is being offered than that the real thing was finally found. :-) ~Christopher
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janineJ9
20 years ago
If you can get a hold of Peter Beales' book "A Passion for Roses" by Octopus Publishing Group 2004, it says about this rose: China Rose: Irene Watts, introduced Guillot, France 1896, seedling of Mme Laurette Messimy. Very double, fragrant, blush-pink flowers borne in sizeable clusters. A typical China, with semi-glossy, mid- to dark green foliage on a twiggy, compact, thorny bush. Good as a pot plant and for bedding. Shade tolerant. Fragrant; continuous flowering; height 3 ft x 2 ft - hardy down to Zone 6 (-10 to 0 degrees Farenheit) He said in this book that it is often mistaken for pink Gruss an Aachen.
cimmaron
20 years ago
I found a pic of Irene Watts-a lovely little rose-the blooms are quite large for a China.
{{gwi:2115160}}
regards
saandie
blckrose
10 years ago
Just browsing by and spotted this item: a lovely rose, David, is the one named Irene Watts above but as you say is in fact 'Pink Gruss, etc.'. I think it's probably safe to assume this naming problem will not be sorted in our lifetime, but keep trying. By the way, back in 1996 I visited Mottisfont Abbey with a group of gardening enthusiasts during the brief rose flowering season and although it was a drizzly, cold day I was thoroughly enchanted. In fact if I remember correctly I think I spoke to a gardener there, maybe it was you!
jenpsh1234
10 years ago
last modified: 10 years ago

I discovered the world of roses on this site over ten years ago, spent many hours on it back then, learned so much & got my garden off to a good start. Then I got too busy and now that I have a bit more time, have looked in again and found that Roses in Oz is just as exciting, captivating & informative as ever! Sometimes it's funny too - there was a guy called Larry back then who wrote such funny stuff.

Anyway, just a small outburst totally unrelated to the Irene /Gruss issue but I just wanted to say thanks to one and all, and also to say roses forever!!

(Pic is Bishop Darlington on my Crazy Clint's arbour which is slowly disintegrating!)
blckrose
10 years ago
Indeed a lovely pink, Jen. and a healthy looking bush.
goldenwings13
10 years ago
Hello everyone,

Its great to have prompted so many comments on the 'Irene Watts'/'Pink Gruss an Aachen' debate! Just to clarify my earlier comments. If there is a true 'Irene' out there, then she will be short and slender with a loosely double pinkish bloom and only alight fragrance. She will also be only lightly prickled, in fact a true China hybrid. Anything else is sure to be 'Pink Gruss an Aachen' (as pictured). I would love to believe that 'Irene' is still out there, somewhere!

The rose Peter Beales described, and the stock his nursery still supplies, is 'PGaA', as he himself acknowledged to me. Stock received by Peter from Oz as 'Irene' still proved to be untrue. These two varieties are so dissimilar, except in overall size of the bush, as to settle the confusion over nomenclature once and for all. The problem remains with the choice of names. 'Pink Gruss an Aachen' is just not as attractive an name to a prospective buyer! Come on Nurserymen! Get your act in order!

Good gardening to all!

David
blckrose
10 years ago
No it's a terrible name, why not just call it Aachen? Unless there's another by that name.
User
10 years ago
John Hook thinks that Odee Pink is the "lost" rose, Irène Watts....

True Irene Watts

goldenwings13

Comments (11)

cimmaron

Wrenroses

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