Hi Duk. Your lawn looks great to me. I see what you mean about the thinning of the grass near the tree. Based on my experience with my Maples, I'd say your problem is not with water or organicity of the soil, but with under-fertilization. The top pic looks like you have KBG--is that so? And do you know how much nitrogen it's gotten so far this year? Also, have you fertilized the tree? I found that my trees seemed to bother the grass less if I went out of my way to make sure they had enough water and fertilizer in their own right. I might also suggest you consider expanding the mulch ring around the tree at least another foot in all directions. That'll give the tree more area to take water and nutrients from, and it might not compete so much with the grass. Andy had asked about my approach to growing grass under my two Norway Maples. For those who don't know what it's like to have a large one of these on your property, you might wonder why I was crazy enough to do what I'm going to describe. The answer is--it's all that ever worked. Hi Andy. Your tree sounds very cool, though it seems there are only a few folks who'd agree with us. Generally whenever I'd mention the phrase "Norway Maple" to any arborist or anyone online, I'd hear: "Oh, they're giant weeds, get rid of them." And I almost did, until I realized how much better the front lawn looks with them there. I have two Norways, each planted about 50 years ago, each about 50 feet high and about 30 inches in diameter. They are about forty feet apart, and make a nice frame for the house when viewed from the road. My front yard is very prominent, and I wanted a nice lawn, as well as nice trees, so I tried to find someone to advise on how to make the lawn and the trees coexist, but all I ever heard was: cut them down. When I moved in here, the grass was in terrible shape all around these trees. I also have an acre, all landscaped, with about 10,000 SF of front lawn. The woody roots of both trees were exposed, from the trunk to at least 10 feet outward, a little further in some places. Left on my own, I came up with a plan. First, I walked around the perimeter of both trees and found the farthest edge of the large woody roots on all sides. At these points, I put stakes in the soil, to keep track of the roots' locations, and to be able to see them from a distance. In my mind, I called this Zone A, the zone to be well-mulched and where the lawn tractor can never go. No grass was growing here, and in truth, very few weeds. This zone extended 10-15 feet from the trunk in all directions, and was the limit to where I considered it possible to grow grass. This makes for a huge mulch bed ((700 SF each) but there's no alternative. Then I walked further out with a spade and felt around for the edge of the fibrous surface roots, many of which were visible right on the surface, like a thick webbing, while others I could feel just below the surface. Scant grass was growing here, but a lot of crabgrass, bentgrass, and oxalis. The outer limit of these roots was at the border of the semi-healthy grass further out. At this border, I placed a second set of stakes, and called this Zone B. By default, Zone C is everything further out. If your tree is like mine, Zones A and B will be huge. This is where the work and expense factor in. Zone C, of course, can be made to grow healthy grass. The same goes for part of Zone B, though how far into Zone B I can go still hasn't been determined. This year I made great progress. Zone A of course is "No-grass land." Zone A here was originally just woody roots ans bare soil, so I focused there first. I began to put all my organic waste into this Zone, and when the first Autmun came, all leaves and wood chips from the front yard went into this Zone. Otherwise, I would have had to buy 1400 SF of mulch, which would have been beyond a sane person's approach to lawn/tree care. But the leaves worked well, you just need to be sure to aerate/turn them etc. The only time I cut any roots was when I found a stray, small woody root beyond the first set of stakes. As you probably know, it's bad to cut any roots of a tree you want to keep, but to try to limit the size and control the shape of Zone A, I did cut a few. The trees seemed not to notice. Zone B still ended up huge, about fifteen feet further out in all directions than zone A, or about 60 feet in diameter. The trick then was to reclaim this with lawn, and it has been a real challenge. First I tried adding topsoil, to correct the erosion that had occurred from lack of vegetation, plus regular fertilizer and lots of water. The grass germinated, and died in the following Summer, despite being very well-watered. I could not keep the soil moist. So, next time around I spread a 50/5 mixture of fresh hot compost and Canadian peat throughout Zone B, and seeded again. Again, good watering and regular fertilizer, all of which made the grass grow great in Zone C, but I had poor germination in Zone B, and very little of it remained after the following Summer. I did however succeed in making the grass grow reasonably well into the outer part of Zone B. Next time around, I took a 33/33/33 mixture of good topsoil, fresh hot compost, and peat moss, and spread this throughout Zone B, then swept it into the bare areas. Then seeded, and got good germination and excellent growth. This was the last time I needed to seed, and since then, it's been the drudge of watering and fertilizing, but I reclaimed most of Zone B. Since then, over the past year, I've continued to spread the 3 part mixture into all bare areas, which were small, and were concentrated in the areas immediately outside Zone A. All this has lead to a raising of the grass level around the trees, and I believe this has been a major reason why the grass now grows, as the grass roots are now a couple inches above the tree roots. We had very little rain this past July/August, and I was watering several times per week. Even so, the grass in Zone B closest to the trees was clearly stressed, and I know it was because the fibrous roots were stealing all the water. The grass there became a bit patchy, but since the cooler weather came, it is filling in again. Had I not been attentive to watering, I bet most of the grass in Zone B would have died. As for the grass itself, I've been seeding with a mixture of 4 types of KBG and two types of Chewing Fescue. The trees create dense shade, but Zone A extends far enough out from the trunks that very little of the grass is shaded for more than an hour or so at a time. People refer to the shade problem as the reason grass won't grow under Maples, and I'm sure it is much of the time. But for Norways as big as your and mine, I believe shade is much less a problem than the marauding roots. So, at this point, I've reclaimed most of Zone B with grass, and I have no intention of letting the grass cross into Zone A, even if it survives there. To cut it would require taking the tractor in there, and bouncing over the large high roots (even though they're well-mulched). The trees seem to be doing much better. The windward one lost a couple of large branches when the remnants of Hurricane Ike came through a couple months ago, but both survived, when many other trees here did not. Both trees used to drop branches all over the place, and that doesn't happen anymore. Anyway, that's what worked for me (so far).

You might post on some other forums: Wildlife Gardening Ohio Valley (?) Midwest Gardening Your plans sound great, hang in there & get the answers...& have fun!

Ilex (Holly). Space a few feet at least from the trunk (that's underexagerating) so it doesn't look funny or ask for others opinons while you're getting ready to plant. I'm going on first hand experience where a screen of these was robust and another large tree towered, actually, from spaces dab smack right in the middle bewteen a pair of Hollies. Dax

I feel ya about Norway maple seeds sprouting, RI. Many of the properties that I do maintenance at have one or more of these trees around, and true to their shade-tolerant maple heritage, the seedlings thereof come up in every hosta, daylily, or any other clump of landscape plant present. Truly frustrating to deal with. But I'm not hating on this tree generally. While it is certainly a problem in wooded areas due to its ability to outcompete many native trees, in the midst of the city, where this is not a problem, I still think it a good all around workhorse tree. Folks just have to know what they're gettin into when they plant one! Maybe mentioned already, but if you could source Taxus canadensis-not sure if it is even available-you'd have the pre-emminent low-growing shade tolerant understory conifer, plus be helping a threatened species survive. +oM