Sandie, was it a controlled breeding program or have the bees had a free for all amongst your rose bushes? I used to send hips to my cousin who enjoyed growing roses from seed...I am growing one of her seedlings in my garden right now - we call it "Judy's Rugosa Seedling" and its turned out to be a really good performer.

You never know you might just discover a really special new rose - plenty before you have done it!

Best of luck with your seedlings!

Von.

Sandie, While I admire your industry and enthusiasm, I can't see how you can prevent your seedlings being produced in commercial quantities if they prove to be winners, or worse, are picked up by an entrepreneur to flog as Aussie Roses.

Most people who want a rose to be a symbol of a worthy cause, charity, school, etc., will want quantity so they can profit for their cause, probably the task of some grower who wants his cut.

Give them away of course, but you can't control what happens after they walk out your gate. JMO.

Yvonne-not controlled no-just took note of the bushes the hips came off.
They may be selfed or have miriad paternal choices.
Even a selfed seedling may not in any way resemble it's parent-the genealogy of roses is such a mixed bag.

Lozza-Glad to see you are still around:)
I don't mean them for worthy causes or mass production-I just mean to supply a one off rose to people who want to name it for a loved one and grow it in their own garden.
I know I can't control any situation after a rose leaves my place but that doesn't really matter to me.
That someone can name a rose after a loved one or a lost one does matter to me.
regards
sandie

Hi Sandie
Congratulations on your seedlings.Looks like your set for an exciting year or two of suprises.
Some photos of your more promising bubs on the forum(when their ready) would surely be very interesting for many who read "roses in oz".
Anne and I are waiting for our first(first ever actually) lot of plants for this season(mostly open pol. plus a few crosses) to flower also.We're using a few different miniatures ,floribundas and tea roses as parents.Good luck Sandie.
Thrip

I breed irises. If breeding roses is similar, you will need to breed thousands before you find something that is new, different, and worthy of introduction. If you propogate and disperse something that is poor in growth habit, disease resistance, form, colour etc, then you are doing rose breeders in Australia a dis-service, and i am sure you wouldn't want your name associated with an inferior product.
To increase the numbers of your rose, you would need to bud it onto root stock, or take numerous cuttings of it. Do you have the room to grow enough seedlings to find a winner, then produce it in numbers?
While it is exciting producing seedlings, which are genetically completely new plants, there is a lot to consider. I think you should just enjoy yourself, take pleasure in what you produce, and maybe name 1 or 2 of your best roses for your own pleasure.
Cheers, Jan

Sandie I think you are very clever & patient to do this & you must have lots of room at your place, I wish you good luck & lots of beautiful new roses
Jan.

I think you have a fantastic idea and since your not trying to breed a brand new highly marketable novelty or applying for patents I can't see how you need worry about having an inferior or disease prone product attributed to your name.And yes some of your babies may look similar in some ways to their parents(ie.very beautiful)and likewise a fair percentage will have more than satisfactory disease resistance. Since they will be genetically different they have earnt the right to be given their own name. I think it is beautiful that you choose to give this gift to someone else to name and in many cases it will even become an heirloom in some families to be passed on.
well done and best wishes
Mrs Thrip (Anne)

hear hear! I agree Anne and what a generous and wondeful idea Sandie!

Thanks Anne and Kevarose-I am so bad at explaining things-it is encouraging to see that you two can see where I am coming from.
Thrip-it is exciting to grow your own seedling hey? :)
Such anticipation of the first blooms.
Regards
sandie

I think it's a lovely idea Sandie. Very generous of you and if you're not charging for the plants how does it do anyone a disservice? Good luck.

I have the utmost respect for Sandie and I am sure from her posting that she is very well intended, and has a clear understanding of what the likely outcome of her seedlings is. I sometimes think there is far too much patting on the back and saying "what a great idea" than there is genuine, though out advice offered when people ask for it. I tend to just give my opinion and sometimes it sounds blunt in writing. In real life I do not tend to cause offence, but my posting above does sound a little harsh.
What I post below may very well offend others on this thread though , so here we go!
Firstly - all seedlings will be genetically different from their parents when they are of hybrid origin. Just because they are genetically different is certainly NOT a reason to give them a name. Also a plant cannot "earn the right" to a name. I know saying that is petty, but they are plants FGS.

Sandie obviously understands the problems associated with distributing un-named stock, as she express this in her comment about not selling/sharing further than friends. I think Lozza makes the problem very clear. One of the things I am very often asked to do is to identify an iris bloom. Given that there are some 70,000 registered, it is virtually impossible, and once you take into account the number of seedlings of either natural or man made origin - there are many, many more.
Why do people want to name things? For the purpose of selling a product it makes sense. You might (or might not) want to buy a rose the same as one you have. If they carry a name it is easier to deal with. The rose is still beautiful (or perhaps still ugly in some cases) without the name. I sometimes think there is a kind of an inverse snobbery among gardeners, that the breeders, especially those who apply for plant breeders rights, are greedy and trying to monopolise the market. If you look at the incredible expense of producing a new plant in mass and marketing it, they are entitled to the money the earn. "Backyard" breeders (of which I consider myself one, and I am sure so does Sandie) are generally dedicated people who put in time and money for no future gain. SOME get a little carried away with registering lots of their offspring regardless of their worthiness. There are some very embarrassing examples in the records of plant societies. Most are very harsh and selective when deciding what should or should not be introduced.
To commemorate a persons passing, or a special event - yes Sandie, yours is a very lovely idea. It doesn't come cheap though. The registration still has to be paid - or do you just mean give it a "garden name?" - It wouldn't be as special then would it? I think that, to register a rose, you would also need to be a member of the rose society of Australia, and if the same applies to the naming of irises, then you would have to introduce the rose into commerce for the name to remain valid. An iris that is not introduced into commerce does not retain the name...

Thanks Sally. :)
Jan-i took no offence at anything you said-your comments hold a lot of sense-but I have NO intention of releasing any roses commercially-just supplying people with a rose for their garden(a good one)that they can name after a loved or lost one.
Nothing complicated about it as far as I can see.
A rose grown from seedling is a new rose-it may resemble another but is genetically different.
It was just a thought is all.
So how are the Buff Beauty's doing?Performing well for you I hope.:)
best regards
sandie

Sandie, what caused me to alert you to the difficulties of your generosity was "The recipient can do cuttings and budding to give clones of the rose to family and friends but may not release it into commerce." No offence, but you seem to be avoiding the practicality of this point. Once the plant leaves your hands, anybody can do anything they like with the plant. Jan also points this out. You will have lost control of the plant's end use.

Just to enlarge on the point Jan raised about suitability of plants for registration, there does seem to be some lip service paid to the notion that newly registered roses will be put into commerce, but no rule that I know of. The rose to be newly named must be inspected by 3 members of your state rose society as to its uniqueness of appearance, i.e, that to the best of their knowledge, the rose does not exist elsewhere. For experienced rosarians (three of them), this is not as difficult as it may sound to the lay person. Details of the origins of the rose, its characteristics of flower, foliage, thorns (prickles), growth habit, parentage, etc, are forwarded to the Australian Registrar, who submits details to American Rose Society, and all things being equal the rose name will be registered. A photograph will be requested from the breeder by ARS in due course.

The above is the procedure for bred roses. For sports, the photo must accompany the application to ARS.

As to quality of the rose, this is of no concern to the three rose society representatives. The decision to register is left to the breeder, as is the matter of propagating up quantities of plants for the market. Quality is obviously not a criterion for many overseas breeders contracted to supply new roses each year to agents in Australia. Many in fact are never registered, and in my opinion should be ignored. I recently handled an application for a miniature rose, declared to be a sport of "Gem". "Gem" is registered as an HT, and ARS raised a query as to how an HT rose could sport a miniature. Upon investigation, I found that the "Gem" in this case was a mini-patio rose, named and thrown onto the market.An uncontrollable event and well beyong the scope of ARS to manage.

A measure of quality of the plant can be arranged by submitting the rose to trial in Adelaide, at the Australian Rose Trial Garden, in Adelaide Botanical Garden. Those roses are constantly assessed and graded as to quality, and after a period of two years, results of the trialled roses are published. These results are genuine accreditations for the roses. However the power of advertising hype by commercial rose breeders far exceeds the quality of most of their roses, but advertising sells, and many excellent roses go unnoticed.

Congratulations are due to Maureen Ross for her efforts to bring the products of amateur rose breeders in Australia before the general public.

Here is a link that might be useful: {{gwi:2113514}}

Jan your idea of well thought out advice is to tell Sandie that she should keep her roses for her own enjoyment "only" and that her seedlings will have no right to a name of their own.As far as was made plain, Sandie never infered that she would either register, commercially propagate or obtain patents for these named plants,but only that she intended to give them away to others to be named for their own private purposes such as in memory of a loved one.In this vain these plants are no less deserving of a name than a persons pets,their children or in your case even your most valued iris hybrids.Sandie seems happy to accept that somebody else could lawfully exploit these roses for commercial gain since Lozza pointed this out, so no harm done here either.
Yes, the chances of breeding a patent worthy rose in such a fashion are possible, though low to say the least, but this point is still totally irrelevant to Sandies cause.What is relevant here is that her chances of breeding a pretty rose with sufficient disease resistance to satisfy her stated purpose would be high.
So why can't we be happy for Sandie who is deriving great joy from her endeavours at no expense to anyone?

Thrip

Haven't seen any comments expressing unhappiness for Sandie's efforts. Meanwhile, "What is relevant here is that her chances of breeding a pretty rose with sufficient disease resistance to satisfy her stated purpose would be high.", why are experienced rose breeders almost entirely failing dismally on this point?

Oh not you too lozza.
Q.Who are we trying to "satisfy" here?
A.Just a couple of gardeners who don't know anything about rose breeding and the associated bureaucracy,red tape and rules and quite frankly will never careless no matter how much you try to tell them.
Q.2 What do they need to know to be satisfied?
A.2 Only that (a)the rose they're been given is unique(genotype)
and,(b) they can name it for the first time after someone special(ie NON COMMERCIAL INTENT. NO NEED FOR REGO OR PATENT HERE)
In other words a special rose for a special reason.

Experienced rose breeders however are failing to "satisfy" a different requirement ie.an oversupplied commercial market.That is oversupplied with choices in roses which(a) often seem far too similar to existing roses to create the demand required to fund patent protection or which (b)are fantastic roses in their own right but otherwise are never funded to the extent necessary to demonstrate this point to a large chunk of the retail market.
But then this problem is not new and is likely to be more acute in the bare-root market where the only knowledge the buyer has of their intended purchase is what they've seen in magazines and in catalogues etc...ie. bigger advertising = bigger sales.Where potted roses are concerned(quality ones in flower) if it looks great who cares where it came from or where you saw it, consumers often by on impulse...and why not.Don't we all buy things to make ourselves happy?
Anyway three cheers for Maureen and Andrew Ross from us too.Their Australian Rose project and the efforts of their collaborating breeders has resulted in some unique roses which truly deserve to be grown eg Loves Gift(by George Thompson).It may interest Austarlian rosarians to know that they are producing numbers of hybrid seedlings for selection, which equals and more often than not exceeds that of the overseas big names.
Thrip

Unique is good, especially if grown for Aus conditions. With larger land areas there should be the opportunity to grow in larger numbers, and have far more to select from.
Sandie, if you are talking "garden names only" then fine apart from the problems Lozza points out. I have bought some 100 roses over the last year, but would put greater value on the 2 BB's from you (growing well and not excessively) and the 3 pinkies from Robyn (all grown from cuttings) and my babies from rugosa scabrosa which are very tiny still. The personal touch is important to a lot of gardeners. It wouldn't be good though, if for instance, a Mrs Austin acquired one of your seedlings to name after her new baby Jayne - LOL.
It might interest people that Fred Danks was one of the people who contributed greatly towards the development of the Pacific Coast Hybrid irises, having crossed various PC species from the US. He was so harsh in his selection that he never introduced one of his seedlings, but did share with other hybridisers, including sending seed back to the US, from whence many of the new varieties sprung. OK - that's irises again, but we have a great history of Australians who have contributed to the production of quality plants for our gardens, and who have probably not benefited to any great extent financially, if at all.

Thrip, "Oh not you too lozza." What does that mean? I think you misunderstand. "What is relevant here is that her chances of breeding a pretty rose with sufficient disease resistance to satisfy her stated purpose would be high.", why are experienced rose breeders almost entirely failing dismally on this point? Your words in quotes. With my remark, I am not pointing at the "pretty rose" aspect, if that's what's bothering you, but rather the "sufficient disease resistance" aspect. Modern roses with "high disease resistance" are a rarity, if they exist at all.

Hi Lozza
"Sufficient disease resistance" were my words, not "high disease resistance".
When I say "sufficient disease resistance to satisfy her stated purpose", well Sandy is not requiring a rose to satisfy a commercial selection process but rather just small groups of say one to five individuals( just for example) who will plant the rose in memory of someone in their family etc.Satisfying these people is her "stated purpose". Maybe a rose like the one Yvonne refered to as "Judy's Rugosa Seedling"would be a good example of this.
Thrip

Talking about my "Judy's rugosa seedling" we have 2 friends - one whos taken cuttings & the other is trialling hips as my cousin did. The first friend is going to try and grow a hedge of it. The other friend whos taken the cuttings wants to get the exact same rose to grow.

Von.

Hello Von
Are we allowed to know any details of your rose and/or its parent and/or see a piccy?
Thrip

I found one picture of the rose taken with my old camera in one of my galleries, there's bound to be others there somewhere...but this shot will give you an idea of how it looks.

Here is a link that might be useful: Judy's Rugosa Seedling

That's beautiful Von.It just occurred to me how much more photogenic rugosa foliage is than the other types we commonly see.My only rugosa is Blanc Double de Coubert which I've just planted.I will definately want to obtain some hybrid types soon.Is Judy's a summer flowerer?

It flowers over the whole rose season, I've even had one bloom while its been leafing out. Usually I get a cluster of blooms at the end of each cane, that shot with just the one was unusual. I keep it to a compact shape, its on its own roots (obviously) so far it hasn't taken root from any low growing canes even though its been in the ground for about 10 years. I prune it down to knee-height in winter. We've got Blanc double de Coubert too which is nice as long as we don't have rain or strong wind. We also had Corylus and that had pretty autumn leaves - but Corylus was a grafted rose and suckered, so out it came.

Von.

Well done Sandie and good luck with them. I've received some Rugosa Scabrosa seeds from Jan and have plenty of small seedlings now shooting. Not too sure where to go now but I assume I'll just pot them up and keep the fingers crossed. Also plenty of baby iris's coming up from seed. It's just great seeing them coming up regardless of what eventuate's. Thanks plenty Jan and I'll keep you posted on the results...Love your rugosa too Von it's a beauty!

Garry

Thanks for the photo and info Von and sorry to keep bugging you.This "grow your own orginal roses from seed" thing has really got my curiosity.I'm also trying to create some new lavenders this year as their is plenty of interesting parent material around particlarly in the stoechas(Italian/Spanish) range.The prospects of doing this are far greater than are doing the same with roses, as lavenders cross pollinate readily in the garden provided they're planted together and that you have plenty of bees.
Thrip