imo, this is the only way to grow RV and its lovely sport, Mme Pierre Oger. It is an obligingly upright and slender rose although it does have a bit of twigginess: it retains its flexible growth throughout its life. These canes are easily bent and trained, ideally on a freestanding rail and wire or post and rail fence (it does appreciate good ventilation) and also appreciated a little dappled shade - the petals are very fine, almost translucent and does not do very well in rain. However, if you are completely against spraying, I would not put this rose in a really prime spot because it will, at some point, defoliate with BS (it occurs early in the season for me, although it quickly recovers new growth so I would not be totally put off by a temporary condition).

Oh, in our garden, RdV NEVER suffered from mildew or rust. She struggled in our alkaline conditions, but other than that, was fine. There are Virus Indexed clones available, now, and if I ever have space for her, I would grow her again. Jeri

the absolute best method, for me, to grow bourbons has been to use them as free standing dividers on posts and wire. The canes are long and flexible and easily bend to a horizontal leaving quite short laterals. Also, because in the UK, they often get PM, they have beenless successful on walls or fences as they really need the extra ventilation that a free standing rose gets. Growing on a tripod, would involve much winding round and round and you have to be fairly ruthless about only keeping 3 or 4 long canes at the most. If you can get the canes as horizontal as possible, the laterals stay quite manageable, although Zephirine Drouhin may need a supplemental trim for a late summer flush. I really would not do a hard prune because I want to keep the long flexible canes as a permanent framework.

One of the advantages of this Bourbon is that it does not mind being pruned-it will give you more rebloom if you prune frequently. Reine Victoria is a long caned Bourbon and is very apical dominant-the tip bud supresses the side laterals-it really responds to pegging(pulling the tip down to supress it) and pruning so you can keep it smaller if you want. I nip away at mine all during the summer reshaping the bushes all along. Feed them well since they keep blooming. I see no difference in vigor between the two. I would chose MPO of the two because the flower is more unusual but that is me. I do love the cupped roses. patricia