Keith, I wasn't thinking about the Earthtainers in terms of the plants appearance, because some years Raybo's plants look less-than-beautiful by mid-season too. In other years, though, his plants look a lot better than my plants, whether mine are in the ground or in containers. However, Raybo's plants always produce high numbers of fruit and that interests me. I was really posting the info about Earthtainers because there are a lot of new gardeners who want to grow tomato plants in very limited space, and for them something like an Earthtainer or Earth Box or Grow Box might be more effective than growing in the ground if their ground, or their time, are very limited. Or, growing in a self-watering container that might let them try growing something in an easier way than the usual process of breaking up the soil and improving it. Then, if successful with a self-watering container, they might branch out and try an in-ground garden. I get really high production from plants grown in molasses tubs but have to water them a lot. If I could get equal production from Earthtainers without having to water 2 or 3 times a day during the peak of the season, I'd be a happy camper. So why haven't I tried Earthtainers? Mostly it is because I know that too much water causes all kinds of tomato problems, including cracking, splitting and watered-down flavor. So, I am skeptical that tomatoes grown in self-watering containers would taste as good as those exactly same varieties grown in the ground. For me, high production is important but so is growing tomatoes with great flavor. I do think it would be interesting to try it, though. And, for urban gardeners looking to produce a lot in a little space, the SWCs could be a great solution. I have wondered, too, if tomato plants in self-watering containers in our climate would suck up all the water from the reservoir daily and if I'd still be watering every day even if using them. I think there's a good chance that would occur, so if it did, then SWCs wouldn't really be an improvement over regular containers, would they? Years before I ever saw one of Raybo's Earthtainers on the tomato forum, a guy named Josho was building something similar but simpler, and I remember seeing photos of those long ago. and I've toyed with the idea of trying them, but haven't done it yet (which says something, doesn't it, about me either being wishy-washy or just not wanting to take on one more gardening task in the months when the days are too long, and so is the 'to do' list). One of these years, I'll try an Earthtainer or Earthbox or Grow Box, or all three at the same time. I don't know that it will be this year, though. Jay, I've always felt the same way....that our climate is more harsh and likely we would not have the same results, or maybe we'd get large yields but watered down flavor. However, I feel kind of bad about automatically dismissing them without trying them. Maybe I'd be surprised and a self-watering container would produce better than I think. I used to think you couldn't grow celery here in our climate, and you've proven me wrong on that one, lol, so maybe we're making the wrong assumptions on SWCs in our climate too. Who knows? If I had a friend or relative wanting to try gardening for the first time ever in the simplest way possible, though, I'd recommend they try a tomato plant in a self-watering container and one in a standard large container. I'd suggest they grow the two side-by-side and see which one performed better and which one gave them the best-tasting tomatoes and the best yields. That's the only way they (or any of us) could be sure about the merits of a SWC versus a standard container. We're looking at the southern drought spreading into OK from the east and south and making our gardening lives less easy in 2011, and I know I am going to have to settle for a smaller garden/lower yields, etc. If I thought SWCs would make a difference (and I haven't decided if I think they would or wouldn't), I'd make some SWCs in January when it is too cold and icky to be outside and would try them with the February-planted early tomatoes. If I liked what I saw from them, I might try them with a couple of mid-season tomatoes planted slightly later. I think that in a typical year here, the SWCs might not be worth the time or expense, but in a really epic drought year, they might. Here at our house, with the heavy red clay soil, an epic drought gives us soil as hard as concrete and it dries so hard that when you try to water, the water rolls downhill into the retention pond at the foot of the garden and very little gets absorbed. Even inproved clay soil that is heavily mulched just doesn't perform well in the worst drought conditions, because we cannot afford to spend as much money as it takes to keep the soil moist in those conditions. So, the real question for me is whether or not I think 2011 will be an epic drought year or just a moderate one. On that point, I am undecided, but here at our house, rainfall has plummeted the last 6 or 8 weeks and I believe our 2011 drought has begun. Our ground (and, remember, we had oodles of rain in Sept. and early Oct.) is cracking and I'm having to water the soil around the foundation about every 3rd or 4th day. Wildfires are increasing. I have been watching very, very closely all the info coming out of the U. S. Drought Monitor and the Texas Forest Service, since our property is surrounded on three sides by Texas and our conditions here are more like theirs than those found even 50 miles north of us in OK. I'm not liking what I am seeing coming out of Texas and other states in the south plagued by drought. Also, I've noticed through simple observation that in the years when La Nina brings heavy, heavy snow to the upper third of the USA, we almost always have a dry winter that carries us into spring very dry. Starting a garden in a dry spring is not easy. In 2003, I was slow to recognize the early start to the drought and waited too late to begin irrigating. I did a better job of irrigating earlier in 2005, but the drought finished off my garden in July anyway, and then except for a one day rainfall of over 9" in April 2006, we had the same issues in 2006. I just dread the thought of 2011 being like those years, but I think it likely. I think there's a good chance we'll have extreme drought issues in 2011 and if the La Nina weather pattern hangs on into the summer months, we could see exceptional drought, so I'm working on ways to combat those conditions. For me, it probably will be a once-and-done garden where I go into the gardening season with the knowledge that after July 1st, irrigation will cost more than it is worth and I won't irrigate after July 1st. That also means I'd be less likely to succession plant. It has been several years since I've done that, but in extreme to exceptional drought, there's really not any other choice. With the container-grown plants, I can water with a drip irrigation system and keep them going even if extreme drought is occurring, unless we have water rationing. However, in all the years we've lived here, we haven't had water rationing a single time so far in our community, so I don't expect it in 2011 unless one of the water company's wells runs dry or has techinical difficulties. It could be that in a year of extreme to exceptional drought, SWCs would be the ultimate solution for someone like me who wants to garden despite the drought. I guess I'll never know, though, if I don't try it. I may be the only gardener in southern OK obsessing over whether the southern drought will make gardening a nightmare in 2011, but what I'm seeing in Texas, and Georgia (where the winter onion plantings are in serious trouble due to drought) and points in between makes me think 2011 is going to be the most challenging year since 2005-2006 unless the La Nina weather pattern abruptly turns back neutral, which seems unlikely. I feel like I've become obsessed with drought the last 2 or 3 weeks, but that's because I'm working on my 'Grow List' for 2011, and I almost feel like I need to have two lists.....one list of what I'll plant if we're having normal weather (as if there is even such a thing as normal weather here) and a second list of what I'll plant if we seem to be in the early stages of a prolonged drought at planting time. Dawn

Hoosier, I think you know where GD came from but if you've forgotten here's a wee tomato history of it. I saved seeds from Galina's Yellow which I'm sure you know, PL with deep gold cherries and I like it very much. Saved seeds gave rise to no plants with PL foliage but plants which each had different colored cherries such as red, pink, yellow, salmon and one I called ivory. This all happened shortly after Bill McDorman brought back Galina's and all the other Siberian ones and offered them at his website. At the same time my friend Steve Draper who lived in Utah was also seeing genetic instability with Galina and asked me to send him the best of what I had which is the one I called ivory b'c it was a very vigorous plant and the fruits had some of that grest taste of Galina. He liked it very much, named it Dr. Carolyn without telling me and I first found out that when I got my SSE YEarbook that year. At first it was throwing some red fruited plants but that stopped fairly soon. it also threw some pink fruited plants and an SSE member sent me seeds for what he called Dr. Carolyn Pink, which Darrel says he likes a lot as do some others. Dr. Carolyn mutated spontaneously to a green when ripe in Amy Goldman's Garden. I found that hard to believe and asked keith how that could happen and I still have the PM's he sent me which showed that it could happen. As to wild tomato genes in it? There are two scientists at the Geneva USDA station/Cornell who have been doing DNA sequencing on many different varieties and have found snippets of wild sequences in all of them. Esther Van der Knapp at OSU has found the same and I know you tracked her down at one point, this was after Scientific American had a cover picture of tomatoes and discussed the changes that lead to differences in fruit shape and size as part of the evolution of our domestic tomato.If you want to check their publications their names are Angela Baldi and Joanne, and I can't remember her last name without looking it up. So yes, I'm sure there are some wild species snips in Green Doctors, just as there are in all the other varieties that Joanne and Angela and Esther have found. QED. I've met both two times b'c Joanne has relatives in Glens Falls, which is near me, and they've stopped by on those trips, brought some of their publications as well as a huge poster board that had beem used at a conference. I first met Angela through Garden Web where she was searching for folks who had grown lots of OP heirlooms and that led to Craig LeHoullier and I both being listed as Consultants on their grant proposals to the Feds. To this day I have no idea whatsoever to explain the original genetic instability that both Steve and I saw with Galina that then led to the variety Dr. Carolyn that then led to Dr. Carolyn Pink that then led to Green Doctors and now Green Doctors Frosted which is a clear epidermis mutation from GD found independently by Neil Lockhart who is listing it in the 2010 SSE Yearbook and Jeff Casey in Canada who is listing it at his website with all his other tomato seeds for sale. Both Neil and Jeff were kind enough to send me a few seeds of GD Frosted which I offered in my annual seed offer elsewhere, now closed. While Tom Wagner has developed a couple of clear skinned GW ripes, I trialed Verde Claro for him back in the mid-90's, he's never formally released them and asked me if I would please not share seeds of Verde Claro except with Craig who was also supposed to trial all the varieties Tom sent, but didn't. So GD Frosted appears to be the first clear skinned variety GWR that has been made available to the public thru Neil Lockhart in the YEarbook, Jeff Casey at his website and the seeds I'm distributing thru my seed offer. Carolyn

Would you be interested in crossing some seeds next year so as to recreate some extroidinary semi-determinate varieties developed by Dr. Lambeth of the University of Missouri in the 60's? I obtained seeds for Mozark from Dr. Trinklein, now at University of Missouri. Also have Glamour seed from a Miss Jean Hardie of the Univesity of North Carolina, Sioux and Avalanche seeds from SSE members. Mozark x Sioux=Missouri Surprise (A crop tomato now extinct) Mozark x Glamour=Avalanche (Another crop tomato. Some seed strains exist but having grown them this year I am not convinced they are anywhere near equal to what I had in the late 60's. My problem is, I have the raw materials all collected up but am short of the skill necessary to get the job done. Larry Watson--deeprock@netlink.net

At least it didn't get as hot as predicted. If we didn't need the rain so desperately it would have been near perfect the last couple of days. Around 30C with a light breeze, my ideal temps. Too good to be indoors. Now for some of that rain (without the cold) Got my fence up and spread several barrow loads of compost, tidied up the kids vegie gardens, fed and topped up mulch on various vegies, strawberries, pumpkins, etc and set up a watering system for some of the vegies. As for reading material, I like "who done its" and similar mystery types. Just finished Jonathon Kellerman's Therapy Saturday night. Not bad but a little slow. Have some more Kellerman to read yet, hopefully they're at least as good. I don't mind Kathy Reichs but Jeffery Deaver would have to be my favourite at the moment.