um.....something that won't die from the early summer frost, the summer "heat of death", pests, fungus, over watering, under watering, too much fertilizer, not enough fertilizer, root nematodes, gophers, neighborhood cats and dogs, and my black thumb.

if you can do that, you'll be my hero forever.

anxiously awaiting your response....

dody :)

bwahahahahahahahaha!!!!

Gary, I would rather answer this in a private email. I am going to try to send it to you through GardenWeb so let me know if you get it please.

Gary,

I doubt I'll think of a single one that you haven't already thought of, but I'll list some favorite OPs. I promise I'll try not to stray too far off the beaten path and list varieties that are too obsccure.

Dawn

FOR TINY TOMATOES:

Tess's Land Race Currant
Coyote
Yellow Currant
Red Currant

FOR SMALL TOMATOES:

Black Cherry
Sun Gold
Matt's Wild Cherry
Large Red Cherry
Rose Quartz
Ildi Yellow Grape
Beam's Yellow Pear
Grape
Austin's Red Pear

FOR EARLY TOMATOES:

Glacier
Sophie's Choice
Moskovich/Moskvich
Marmande
New Big Dwarf

FOR MID-SEASON TOMATOES:

Black Krim
Black From Tula
JD's Special C-Tex
Cherokee Purple
Pruden's Purple
Indian Stripe
Mule Team
Marglobe
NAR
Homestead 24
Creole
Box Car Willie
Jaune Flammee
Nebraska Wedding
Kellogg's Breakfast
Dr. Wyche's Yellow
Aunt Gertie's Gold
Aunt Ruby's German Green

FOR LATE-SEASON TOMATOES:

Arkansas Traveler or Traveler 76
Bradley Pink
Mortgage Lifter
Brandywine Sudduth's
Red Brandywine
Crimson Cushion (aka Red Ponderosa)
German Johnson
Giant Belgium
Mortgage Lifter

FOR PROCESSING:

Amish Paste
Roma
Heidi
Santa Clara Canner
Heinz 1439
Rutgers
Roma
San Marzano Redorta

Oh, my, Carol, the mystery of it all.......undercover tomato plants, James Bond and Agatha Christie hybrids?

Dody, you are TOO funny! If he could come up with something that meets all those ideals, I don't think he'd be posting at GW. It would probably be the last we'd ever hear from Gary as he'd be the wealthiest man in the world. Not that he isn't wealthy in terms of good friends here on the forum.

I'm not the best of the online agents here, but I'll toss my 2 cents out there. I may have already mentioned it in another thread, but with our economy and the likelihood that it is not going to improve as quickly as we'd like, I see the coming of a surge in home gardening, and especially patio gardening. I would like to see more varieties suitable for container or small space gardening. The Cross Hemisphere Dwarf Tomato Project will soon (by that I mean probably 2011) be growing for seed production to offer the public, I hope, as they are on F7 to F10 growouts on many of the seven dwarf hybids, like Sneezy and Sleepy, two of their most promising parents. Sneezy has produced a growout that is named Summertime Gold, for its flavor and stature, that shows very good promise for release. This is a project headed up by Craig LeHoullier and Patrina from Australia.

There are a few good dwarfs out there that have been recommended to me by Dawn, like Dwarf Big Red and Dwarf Champion, and a couple others I intend to grow this year like Kootenai. I've also heard Budai is a good one. Others I've ordered that stay smaller are Mountain Princess, Earlibell, Sophie's Choice, Polish Pastel, Polish Dwarf, and Black Sea Man (one of the few black determinates that I've found).

Anyway, just throwing that out there for you to ponder. I know if I had a local source (local being Oklahoma) for seeds, I'd much prefer to order from them.

Susan

Susan - Nothing secret about the tomato plants. I just had an idea that I thought might offer him an opportunity, and I didn't think this was the place to present it. With GW acting up like it has been recently, I just hope he gets it.

Dody� Yikes.� I need to open a biological laboratory and do gene splicing.� I could splice the genes of Cactus for heat and drought tolerance.�Or maybe I could find some genes of an Indian Rain Dancer and the tomatoes could bring their own rain when they�need it.....�Maybe some penguin genes for cold tolerance.�I'm sure there's a government grant for that somewhere..... I'm just glad�you didn't say one that could part the Red Sea........ I don't know where I would get those genes! LOL
�
Susan.� The last two years have been the most different in terms of what people are wanting.� I have more people asking about organic growing and container growing.� I wanted to get a program together this spring on container growing, but I just can't get it together for this year.� I really haven't been following the Dwarf Project, but I know I need to......
�
Dawn
�
thanks for the input and yes you did have suggestions that I haven't though about.� But about the currents, I have been told that these are from a different species that will cross pollinate everything and if you have them around, you will get crosses.� That makes me a bit hesitant to grow those.�

All suggestions are appreciated...keep them coming

Gary,

Yes, the currant types do have exerted stigmas which make them more prone to cross, so for anyone saving seed or growing production plants for seed, isolation cages or distance isolation would be necessary. (Clearly, bagging blossoms would be impossible with so many tiny little flowers all over the plants.) Some currant types themselves are not purely L. pimpinellifolium but instead are interspecies crosses.

Do you follow Raybo's posts about his Earthtainers over on the Tomato Forum or his website or the Tomatofest website? He plants two indeterminates per Earthtainer (a homemade version of a self-watering container similar to the commercially-produced Earth Boxes or Grow Boxes) and gets incredible production most years. His version of a "bad year" with poor production still gives him more tomatoes than most people harvest from in-ground plants in a good year. If I was growing only in containers, instead of switching to all dwarves or determinates, I'd make some Earthtainers and plant 2 indeterminates per Earthtainer just like he does. For someone wanting maximum production from container-grown plants, Earthtainers, Earth Boxes or Grow Boxes might be the way to go.

I've linked a Sunset magazine article that has a great photo....and the photo is not a fluke. His Earthtainer tomatoes look like that every year.

Dawn

Here is a link that might be useful: Sunset magazine article on Raybo's Earthtainers

Thanks for the link Dawn. I haven't seen that article. I have traded seeds with Ray (I think I received my first JD's Special C-Tex from him)and he is one nice fellow.

g

Dawn,
I've been interested in the earthtainer system and have seen many photos over in the tomato forum from some of the California gardeners. While I believe earthtainer system to be a big plus to growers in milder climates, I seriously doubt that many or any for that matter could have the beautiful "Home and Garden" plants by the end of July here in Oklahoma with our harsher gardening conditions. I'm not saying the earthtainer system wont work in Oklahoma, just that people shouldn't expect State Fair Blue Ribbon winning plants using then in OK.

Keith

Keith your post covered a lot of what I was going to say. It reminds me of a gardener in Canada who goes by Grunt on many forums. Their plants are all planted in the ground and production is very high on most everything they grow. When I first saw his pictures I was thinking I need to grow everything he does. But like many have said don't expect the production they get from varieties here in our harsh conditions. They are very good gardeners but the conditions also are about as close to ideal as you could get them. I have received seeds from Raybo. A great person. I have read about his earthtainer system. But know not to expect the same results here. Jay

For those who want more info on earthtainer, the following 3 videos are of Ray and Gary showing how to build the earthtainer system.

Video 1 Introduction and Building the EarthTainer

Video 2 Assembling the Cage System

Video 3 Planting

Keith

Keith,

I wasn't thinking about the Earthtainers in terms of the plants appearance, because some years Raybo's plants look less-than-beautiful by mid-season too. In other years, though, his plants look a lot better than my plants, whether mine are in the ground or in containers. However, Raybo's plants always produce high numbers of fruit and that interests me. I was really posting the info about Earthtainers because there are a lot of new gardeners who want to grow tomato plants in very limited space, and for them something like an Earthtainer or Earth Box or Grow Box might be more effective than growing in the ground if their ground, or their time, are very limited. Or, growing in a self-watering container that might let them try growing something in an easier way than the usual process of breaking up the soil and improving it. Then, if successful with a self-watering container, they might branch out and try an in-ground garden.

I get really high production from plants grown in molasses tubs but have to water them a lot. If I could get equal production from Earthtainers without having to water 2 or 3 times a day during the peak of the season, I'd be a happy camper. So why haven't I tried Earthtainers? Mostly it is because I know that too much water causes all kinds of tomato problems, including cracking, splitting and watered-down flavor. So, I am skeptical that tomatoes grown in self-watering containers would taste as good as those exactly same varieties grown in the ground. For me, high production is important but so is growing tomatoes with great flavor. I do think it would be interesting to try it, though. And, for urban gardeners looking to produce a lot in a little space, the SWCs could be a great solution.

I have wondered, too, if tomato plants in self-watering containers in our climate would suck up all the water from the reservoir daily and if I'd still be watering every day even if using them. I think there's a good chance that would occur, so if it did, then SWCs wouldn't really be an improvement over regular containers, would they?

Years before I ever saw one of Raybo's Earthtainers on the tomato forum, a guy named Josho was building something similar but simpler, and I remember seeing photos of those long ago. and I've toyed with the idea of trying them, but haven't done it yet (which says something, doesn't it, about me either being wishy-washy or just not wanting to take on one more gardening task in the months when the days are too long, and so is the 'to do' list).

One of these years, I'll try an Earthtainer or Earthbox or Grow Box, or all three at the same time. I don't know that it will be this year, though.

Jay, I've always felt the same way....that our climate is more harsh and likely we would not have the same results, or maybe we'd get large yields but watered down flavor. However, I feel kind of bad about automatically dismissing them without trying them. Maybe I'd be surprised and a self-watering container would produce better than I think.

I used to think you couldn't grow celery here in our climate, and you've proven me wrong on that one, lol, so maybe we're making the wrong assumptions on SWCs in our climate too. Who knows?

If I had a friend or relative wanting to try gardening for the first time ever in the simplest way possible, though, I'd recommend they try a tomato plant in a self-watering container and one in a standard large container. I'd suggest they grow the two side-by-side and see which one performed better and which one gave them the best-tasting tomatoes and the best yields. That's the only way they (or any of us) could be sure about the merits of a SWC versus a standard container.

We're looking at the southern drought spreading into OK from the east and south and making our gardening lives less easy in 2011, and I know I am going to have to settle for a smaller garden/lower yields, etc. If I thought SWCs would make a difference (and I haven't decided if I think they would or wouldn't), I'd make some SWCs in January when it is too cold and icky to be outside and would try them with the February-planted early tomatoes. If I liked what I saw from them, I might try them with a couple of mid-season tomatoes planted slightly later.

I think that in a typical year here, the SWCs might not be worth the time or expense, but in a really epic drought year, they might. Here at our house, with the heavy red clay soil, an epic drought gives us soil as hard as concrete and it dries so hard that when you try to water, the water rolls downhill into the retention pond at the foot of the garden and very little gets absorbed. Even inproved clay soil that is heavily mulched just doesn't perform well in the worst drought conditions, because we cannot afford to spend as much money as it takes to keep the soil moist in those conditions.

So, the real question for me is whether or not I think 2011 will be an epic drought year or just a moderate one. On that point, I am undecided, but here at our house, rainfall has plummeted the last 6 or 8 weeks and I believe our 2011 drought has begun. Our ground (and, remember, we had oodles of rain in Sept. and early Oct.) is cracking and I'm having to water the soil around the foundation about every 3rd or 4th day. Wildfires are increasing.

I have been watching very, very closely all the info coming out of the U. S. Drought Monitor and the Texas Forest Service, since our property is surrounded on three sides by Texas and our conditions here are more like theirs than those found even 50 miles north of us in OK. I'm not liking what I am seeing coming out of Texas and other states in the south plagued by drought.

Also, I've noticed through simple observation that in the years when La Nina brings heavy, heavy snow to the upper third of the USA, we almost always have a dry winter that carries us into spring very dry. Starting a garden in a dry spring is not easy. In 2003, I was slow to recognize the early start to the drought and waited too late to begin irrigating. I did a better job of irrigating earlier in 2005, but the drought finished off my garden in July anyway, and then except for a one day rainfall of over 9" in April 2006, we had the same issues in 2006. I just dread the thought of 2011 being like those years, but I think it likely.

I think there's a good chance we'll have extreme drought issues in 2011 and if the La Nina weather pattern hangs on into the summer months, we could see exceptional drought, so I'm working on ways to combat those conditions. For me, it probably will be a once-and-done garden where I go into the gardening season with the knowledge that after July 1st, irrigation will cost more than it is worth and I won't irrigate after July 1st. That also means I'd be less likely to succession plant. It has been several years since I've done that, but in extreme to exceptional drought, there's really not any other choice.

With the container-grown plants, I can water with a drip irrigation system and keep them going even if extreme drought is occurring, unless we have water rationing. However, in all the years we've lived here, we haven't had water rationing a single time so far in our community, so I don't expect it in 2011 unless one of the water company's wells runs dry or has techinical difficulties.

It could be that in a year of extreme to exceptional drought, SWCs would be the ultimate solution for someone like me who wants to garden despite the drought. I guess I'll never know, though, if I don't try it.

I may be the only gardener in southern OK obsessing over whether the southern drought will make gardening a nightmare in 2011, but what I'm seeing in Texas, and Georgia (where the winter onion plantings are in serious trouble due to drought) and points in between makes me think 2011 is going to be the most challenging year since 2005-2006 unless the La Nina weather pattern abruptly turns back neutral, which seems unlikely.

I feel like I've become obsessed with drought the last 2 or 3 weeks, but that's because I'm working on my 'Grow List' for 2011, and I almost feel like I need to have two lists.....one list of what I'll plant if we're having normal weather (as if there is even such a thing as normal weather here) and a second list of what I'll plant if we seem to be in the early stages of a prolonged drought at planting time.

Dawn

Gary,
This is from the point of a customer, if that helps. Three that I've been thinking about for several seasons but haven't bought yet are Marmande, JD's Special C-Tex and NAR.
Loretta

Loretta

Absolutely. Just about all the varieties on the link provided below (which include JD's and NAR) will be a growout. I do not have seed of Marmande, so I should try that one myself.

Thanks for your imput
gary

Here is a link that might be useful: Tomato Trial

OK

I have a preliminary list of things I think I may grow for seed production in 2011. Let me know what you think. Many of these, I have never grown before, so if there is something anyone thinks are not good choices, Please let me know. ( and just FYI, I downloaded Foxfire browser and it soooo much better than the AOL browser for Garden-Web

2011 grow-outs

Berkeley tie-dye Pink
Black Cherry
Bloody Butcher
Brandywine Cowlicks
Bulgarian Triumph
Chapman
Cherokee Chocolate
Cherokee Green
Christopher Columbus
County Agent
Dana's Dusky Rose
Dora
Dr. Wyche's Red
Dr. Wyche's Yellow
Earl's Faux
Earl's Polish
Ed's Millennium
Gary 'O Sena
Germaid Red
Golden Cherokee
Green Giant
Grub's Mystery Green
Hege German Pink
Herman's Special
IIdi
Indian Stripe
J D's Special C-Tex
KBX
Ludmilla's Red Plum
Magnum Beefsteak
Mariana's Peace
Marmande
Martha Washington
Martino's Roma
Mountain Princess
Mule Team
Nema Red
Neves Azorean Red
Old German
Old Virginia
Orange Minsk
Ozark Pink
Randy's Brandy
Red Barn
Red Penna
Royal Hillbilly
Sara Black
Sioux
Sophie's Choice
Spudakee
T.C. Jones
Teton de Venus
Tony's Italian
Top Sirloin
Vorlon
Wessel's Purple Pride (Cherokee Sausage)
Wick's Orange Paste

I am more interested in your tomato plants if that is also a question you are asking.

Do you ever come to Broken Arrow?
The one tomato that I grew and was very good was Jubilee. I cannot find the tag to see if there was another name attached to the word, Jubilee. It is a large yellow tomato and was delicious.

I also liked Cherokee Purple.

Sammy

Sammy. I used to go to the Broken Arrow Farmer's Market, but didn't do well, so I haven't been there in a while. I have grown the Jubilee, but there is not much demand for it, so stopped. Jubilee was one of the first varieties I grew as a kid back in the 60's.