Thank you for your response Tigerdunes. I will definitely check with the bidder on the third party evaporator coil. I specified matched systems having read your prior posts to others extensively, but didn't catch that this evaporator coil wasn't a matching Trane. Thanks. The boiler was sufficient in heating the entire 1200 square feet main floor living space with AND without all the radiators in place. I don't recall the size at the moment, but will check. The HVAC people were all pleased with its size when they looked at it. Because the house is without electric and water service as yet, we are not totally sure the boiler is still in working order. It was not fire damaged, but water from the fire fighters and heat from the fire might have caused some unknown problems, which was another reason to hedge the bet by adding a gas furnace. The second reason for considering a gas furnace, not just A/C is that a realtor who knows the house and its value, - which is considerable for a small house, given its location and craftsman, cedar shingled cottage charm - suggests that some buyers don't like radiator systems, and feels the addition of an alternate heat system and the addition of A/C will be worth it, which is another reason I got the bid for it. The third reason for considering a gas furnace is code compliance, and the cost to do so. The cost of adding hydronic units to the sunroom, pantry, dining room and bath areas to meet code are unnecessary if I install the gas furnace. Anyone wanting to use the radiator system only for heat would have to add these units, or live without them as I did, but code is met with the addition of a furnace. No furnace, and I have to add radiators in the areas mentioned above and detailed below. I agree that a heat pump would be the way to go if we knew for sure that the radiator system was going to be the primary source of heat as it was when I lived in the house. New owners might opt for a forced air system. My question on this is, can a gas furnace be added into the system as cost effectively later as it can be added now with the A/C going in. The new heating system, if installed, l would heat/coo the 1200 sq ft main floor with its 9 ft ceilings, with two registers in the open 950 sq ft unfinished basement. The basement stays cool in summer and warm in winter without additional heating and cooling. The attic space, if developed later, will be heated and cooled with an in-wall, Mitsubishi type system. Trying to run ducts and vents is a problem, which is why we don't have the new proposed system sited in the attic. It would make the attic fairly unusable in a future development as a master suite and sitting room. The ducting layout using the in the basement location has worked well, and the location of cold air returns well placed and spaced. So the attic will not be heated or cooled with this system. In the past, with the boiler, the heat loss from the main floor was enough to keep the attic above freezing, but does not warm it significantly. The attic has 4 large double window sets, 3 large Velux skylights and a 4.0 french door set, and the roof is black, so it stays warm enough on sunny days, and is well ventilated in summer.. The attic floor will be re-insulated at this time, but not the walls or ceiling. The new insulation in the attic floor will be far better than the old, and as I said, the new windows throughout, from basement to attic are a vast improvement in energy efficiency over what the boiler used to have to handle. The 950 sq ft basement is unheated at present, though I believe two registers will be added to this space with the new furnace The basement stays comfortable in winter when the boiler is in operation simply from the hot water pipes to the radiators and hot water heater and warmth of the up stairs. It is is open space, unfinished and only used for laundry and workshop space/tool storage. The dining room radiator was removed from under a south facing bump out window. That window was removed and replaced by an exterior double french door when a new deck was added at the time of the new boiler. The heat loss to this room was noticeable but not enough to be a problem for me, though it would be for others, and it is for code. Each room has to have a heat source, so I either have to put in a register or add a radiator. The bathroom is only 6x7 and is now warmed by the heat/fan which is not sufficient for code. I have a not yet installed hydronic towel bar that gives off 1500 BTU, enough to handle the bath and the small hall adjoining the dining room, bath, bedroom and parlor. If I do the gas furnace, this is unnecessary. At same time the new boiler was installed, a kitchen was installed in a 11x12 ft space that only had a sink and refrigerator with a radiator. An adjoining but separate 6x8 pantry at the south end of the kitchen had a stove and a cabinet. The pantry is also an access corridor to the basement stairs. So in installing a kitchen, I removed the radiator and replaced it with a toe kick radiator under the sink base the fully fitted kitchen. Base and upper cabinets were added to the pantry on the load bearing exterior wall that separated the pantry from the screen 8x8 screened back porch at the other half of the kitchen south wall. The fire that started at the electric service connection into the house was located on the east wall between the kitchen and screen porch, so this area and the attic above it were severely impacted by the fire. In rebuilding this area, the screen porch got a solid foundation, was mostly opened to the kitchen, and serves as a sunroom breakfast area. It is,fully windowed from ceiling to 36 inches above the floor with a door that opens to the deck. The load bearing wall separating the sunroom from the pantry still exists, but the pantry is now open to the kitchen rather than walled off with a doorway. The kitchen toe kick puts out 5,600 BTU and has to handle the kitchen sunroom and pantry area now. If I do not add a furnace, code will require me to heat the sunroom and pantry areas, which I would do with toe kick units under the pantry base cabinets - one venting into the sunroom through the wall and one venting into the pantry. If I add a furnace, this will not be required, we will simply use those areas for the forced air registers. If I do not add a furnace I will have to provide hydronic heat sources for both areas. So, to answer your question 4, the only addition to the heat load that the boiler has covered adequately (1200 sp ft) is the 8x8 fully weatherized and insulated sunroom. If I go with a gas furnace we will add the register(s) for the unfinished basement. I don't know if code requires the basement to be covered. I do know the non living space attic does not need to be covered. Sorry for all the detail, but I find that sooner or later the information is needed, so I am trying to give it all upfront.

First off, I think you must ask dealer what upgrades you need to make to your attic where dealer will guarantee against freeze ups. That's if you are serious about placing a high eff condensing furnace in attic. Then get pricing from an insulation contractor and/or dealer if he provides that type of work. Weigh the cost of the upgrade and decide if it's worth it. I think quote #1 is ridiculously high. Good comprehensive list though for scope of work. Compare to the other quotes for apples to apples. On quote #2, I want R8 insulation up and down. I don't believe you require a 90 KBTU furnace for upstairs area. I would want to see the load calc to support that size. Drop down to 70 K model. I assume Infinity controllers for both systems. How many returns on each floor? I would want two returns on each floor, properly sized and strategically located. Filter cabinets on both systems? I think a 3 ton condenser for upstairs is oversized and would suggest going down to a 2 1/2 ton Sgl stage high eff model. Don't like that condenser on the Trane quote. I would like to see evap coil model numbers. What about filter cabinets? What model thermostats? Is this rental property? Who will remove old radiators and old pipes and make necessary repairs including flooring? These are just some general observations. IMO This post was edited by tigerdunes on Tue, Aug 20, 13 at 13:02

Mike_Home - Thank you for the answers and advice. Here are some responses and follow-up questions. 1. SEER/EER - your answer is what I had been slowly understanding that these numbers are what drive the efficiency numbers. Rough calculations comparing my older 10 SEER unit to a 14 and 16 SEER unit plus using 1 year of energy bills, show a potential electricity improvement of $184/year for the 14 and $238.31 for the 16. Of course this is all dependent on a quality install as well as proper ducts, etc. as you've outlined in other points. 2. Payback will be uncertain as I was relocated for work. Not sure how long we'll be here and at this point, the energy savings per year is still important. 3. Understood. Before my research, I didn't realize that the furnace played such an important role in airflow. 4. My zoning explanation might have been poorly stated. The gist of what was mentioned, was that based on proper zoning, the more efficient airflow distribution within the home may allow for a 4 ton condenser. The condenser potentially wouldn't have to push air through all of the ducts at the same rate. Does that logic track with your experience? 5. Appreciate thermostat advice and handling all the features, etc. 6. The annual maintenance contract was from the contractor providing the detailed Goodman quotes. Participating in the yearly maintenance contract covers 100% of repair costs (Contractor backed, not OEM), includes a 10 year replacement warranty, and there are no dispatch or service fees for service calls. The replacement warranty is the full replacement of the failed unit rather than just repairing under the 10 year labor warranty with Goodman. If I don't do the yearly maintenance contract, there is no replacement warranty. Ever heard of this? The contractor (Goodman quotes) may have mentioned "calculations" at one point but I don't remember hearing about them doing a manual "J" load calc. As far as I can tell, Title 24 doesn't require the J calc. It does require a duct leak test performed by a certified 3rd party HERS testing company. This is required on ALL HVAC projects in CA. Rebates are only available as part of CA's Home Upgrade Program. This program has required testing and upgrades on items like ducts, whole home envelope, attic insulation, etc. I will go back to two of the contractors and ask them about performing the calculation. I am looking to replace the whole system at this point to make sure the equipment is compatible and most efficient. Goodman is making me increasingly nervous, especially with the Class Action lawsuit that was just set back last week based on a judge's ruling... As for the use of a different coil with the Goodman equipment, it seems to be very common with Goodman quotes (based on board postings like this). I think there is a relationship or commercial connection between Goodman and Aspen to drive the high use with Goodman systems. I don't know the true specs on the Ruud equipment, I was guessing a bit; I will ask for the models, etc. Thanks again!

Hi, I am the one who originally started this thread and I wanted to give a quick update: Our cotated coil has been working fine. No white flakes at all. The original issue may have been due to the fact that we are in a suprisingly humid micro climate, our coil is located in an unconditioned crawl space, and our AC system may have been oversized. Therefore, salt deposits/corrosion started to accumulate on the bare aluminum of the originally installed coil and started to flake off when we switched from colling to heating, as the warm air was passing the coil. To my knowledge, the white flakes were insoluble salt/corrosion deposits on the coil and therefore are not toxic! Anyway, if you have the same issue of white flakes comig off your aluminum coil, coating it may do the trick. I did not want that coating to be done on site and requested it to be done at the factory to a brand new coil in a more controlled environment in order to achieve the best results. One important note: if you decide to get a coated coil cleaned, do NOT use standard coil cleaners as they will destroy the coating. You need to use a specially forumlated ph-neutral cleaner. Most coil cleaners are not ph-neutral. I hope this helps.