Well, as for your math problems, you'll probably do better if you forget all of the terms that have been tosses at you ("area") and just think in terms of dimensions (visualize it). You have two dimensional issues (length and width without regards to depth - think of a sheet of paper) and you have three dimensional issues (length, width, and depth - think of a cardboard box). Most of the problems you're looking at (how close to plant different items) are largely two dimensional issues - you don't care about depth because the container either is or isn't deep enough for what your planting. Regardless of whether you're dealing with a two dimensional issue or a three dimensional issue, you can always find the total space occupied by multiplying the dimensions involved (2D is Width X Length. 3D is Width X Length X Depth) To address some your questions though there are a few things you need to realize about gardening (I'll probably get a lot of objections at this point, but such is life): 1. A plant doesn't care how much space it has to grow. It cares if it has the inputs it needs (water, light, nutrients) and enough physical space to fit what it's growing in (you can't make two carrots occupy the exact same physical space - they're side by side or some other setup. You can't violate the laws of the universe...) 2. Because we don't know exactly (we know roughly) what any given plant needs, and given the logistics and expenses involved, it's pretty much impossible to grow plants side by side smashed into each other with no space in between and still provide for their needs. This given, there has to be some space involved. How much space becomes a trade-off which is dependent upon your growing environment. The better you provide for your plants needs, the closer you can plant them. Given that you're not going to do it perfectly (or even close in most cases) - none of us do - there will have to be a reasonable amount of space. If you space your plants somewhat too close together, this means they're going to have less of the things they need (light, carbon dioxide, oxygen, nitrogen, etc.) and they won't produce as well. On the other hand, if you space them too far apart, you reach a spacing where adding additional space does not benefit the plant any further and production does not improve. 3. Square foot gardening (which isn't a good fit for container gardening, but there are some good things we can learn from it) hinges on the principle of production per space. It tries to maximize NOT YOUR PRODUCTION PER PLANT, but your production per given amount of space to grow in. If you space wider than typical square foot gardening recommendations, you can get better production per plant, but probably won't have as good of production per given area of space. So with square foot gardening principles, your accepting less production per plant so you can cram them in closer together and get a higher production per given area of space. That said, in the guidelines for square foot gardening, there's also an assumption made about the space requirements for a given category of plant. As any of us know that plant heirlooms, there is an infinite variety within any particular vegetable you care to grow - tomatoes, peppers, eggplant, you name it. Some of these varieties have very different space requirements. I've grown some tomatoes where the plant was so small and compact I could comfortably fit about 4 plants in a square foot. I've had other monster tomato plants that would have been more at home in a 2x2ft square - but only if I was growing vertically and let it go about 7ft straight up. 4. At the end of the day, you have to know the plant you're planting to have a real good idea about how much space it's going to need. How good you intend to take care of it will be important to how close you can space them. 5. Realize, that other than your root crops, many of your vegetables do most of their "underground work" in the top 6-8 inches of space. A foot depth is plenty for just about everything even including a decent number of root crops. Anything beyond a foot is usually a waste representing excess unused soil in the bottom of the container. If you find yourself with extra deep containers - strongly consider cutting some holes in the sides of the containers and planting something in the sides of the containers. Take a look at some of the strawberry planters available and you'll get the idea. 6. Don't forget about light. For your fruit producing vegetables (and really the others too), there's going to be a direct (very direct, very obvious) correlation between the amount of light your plants get and the amount of produce they provide. If you don't provide enough light, it's possible you'll have what looks like a very nice, very healthy, very big plant that doesn't produce a single fruit. Not one. I speak from experience. The first house I started gardening in as an adult looked like it had been dropped in the middle of a forest with no thought for a clearing. The only "clearing" I had was the road out front, so any planting I did I had to do on the front of my property. I had more moss than grass in my yard. I had a fenceline that went out to the front of the house that I grew tomatoes along. The closer you got to the road, the more light they received and the more tomatoes they produced. About 10 ft back from the front of that fence I had some really nice looking plants, but no tomatoes. I've had other examples of this as well. Proper sunlight is essential to crop production. Pay attention not only to your container placement in relation to the sun, but also in relation to the crop(s) in them - you don't want some of your crops shading the others enough they can't get proper sunlight. 7. You can grow crops of any size in containers - just be prepared to deal with the results. If it's a big melon, it's going to vine out over the sides and take up some space unless you arrange for it to go vertical. Big crops are also typically going to require more inputs, so make sure you're keeping enough of what it needs in that container (starting with water). If you're going to grow very high vertically, and you're outside, wind may be an issue. Be prepared to tie down, stake, etc. that container in some way so that it doesn't tip over when it has your seven foot tomato hanging out of the top (voice of experience). Some spacing I've done when container gardening which may be of value to you: typical 5 gallon bucket - 1 or 2 peppers. Square pot roughly 1.5x1.5ftx1.5ft - I put one large vining tomato in the center and one pepper in each corner. This is a bit tricky and crowded, but it can be done successfully. Shallow flower planters roughly 3ft long by 0.5ft wide by 0.5ft deep - 3 to 4 peppers, a row of strawberries, or 3 really small, compact tomatoes. Hope this helps.

granburyflowergirl: Without trying to discourage you, if your goal is to create a container for the purpose of root pruning (via passive exposure to air), it is not easy. If your goal is to achieve added aeration in the container and hope it provides *some* root pruning behavior, you shouldn't be disappointed. Either way, by all means make your own. It's always cool to see someone design their own and you may even improve existing products. You may already understand the info below. If so, I apologize if you're offended by the unsolicited advice and my presumptions. But I took the time to share what I learned to also help RainyGarden with her own research (and future lurkers who may read the thread). In the moderate amount of research I did, I found that even existing RPC product manufacturers had/have trouble nailing down a successful design. This is b/c roots, as with most life, will attempt to avoid undesirable living conditions. The method of passive air RPC's is to allow root growth toward the container edge whereupon exposure to air causes root tip die-back, encouraging root sub-branching behind it. This not only encourages a more fibrous root ball, but attempts to avoid the natural behavior of excessive root elongation and eventual girdling. Cutting holes and slits into existing containers have proven to not work well (if at all). The roots will turn to avoid the exposure points. As long as there is ample space in the medium, the vast majority will turn or circle back and stay within it before being pruned. RainyGarden: This is partly why jumping from a 5 gallon to 15 gallon RPC container provides no root pruning benefit until much later in the plant's life. You can help by fanning out all the roots horizontally when re-potting, but the same major limitation will apply. There are other reasons it doesn't work well, but many surround this idea. Ideally where you could invest the time and dollars, you'd incrementally increase RPC size only when a pot-up was necessary, just like a standard container. I was hopeful for breathable fabric containers, since the roots would be exposed to air on all sides including corners and seams. But my initial experience is proving somewhat discouraging since a root check revealed several roots behaved normally and elongated right down the side of the fabric container! This is not to say fabric containers are not completely ineffective (several roots *were* trapped in the fabric holes successfully and this was just an early checkpoint). I am only sharing this to exemplify how difficult passive air root pruning is (and ultimately why you shouldn't rely on any container for all your root pruning needs). I am fairly certain the key to ARPC success lies within the method of forcing root exposure long enough to allow die-back to occur. Various innovative methods are required to "trap or trick" the roots, hence manufacturers approach it differently. Millet, a respected citrus expert (who is around here now and then but contributes at the Citrus Growers Forum) uses one of Rootmaker brands ARPC products and claims their design is effective, but also warns to be most effective the citrus trees should be started in them while young and incrementally up-sized. But I believe one could place existing trees in them if certain steps were taken to to organize roots, trim the longest, and place in the correct sized container (usually smaller than one typically chooses with standard containers). I do not know how Millet defines success when evaluating it, but much like with Tapla/Al, I would give him the benefit of the doubt. I've only heard a comments from Al in the past about fabric containers, and it wasn't positive. Not sure what his input is on the variety of products out there. A bit of history reveals a simple early method developed by Whitcomb in the 70s used a simple milk carton with the bottom completely exposed to air but over mesh. Although his research focused on tap roots, the tall slender container still works today to guide all the roots downward and trap in a specific sized mesh. Although tall slender containers for maturing trees have some drawbacks, I've heard it is supposedly becoming standard for ARPC's used in seedling and early growth.

nooooooo !!! .. lol ... i have to admit.. i didnt read all the replies ... see link that i often use in the tree/conifer and shrub forums ... dealing with this is not limited to fruit trees ... so the rules are the same ... but the one thing i didnt see in the replies i read ... is anyone addressing actually what the understock is ... these fruit peeps choose their trees.. based onto only on the fruiting part itself.. but choose based on what is below.. they will have to tell you why.. and for what reasons ... and you can not.. predict what the understock is.. when buying a big pot.. at the bigboxstore .. for that reason ... and the fact that they are mailed to your front door at the appropriate planting time ... many of us prefer mail order ... read the planting guide.. and you will probably find out.. you dont need to dig a big planting hole.. unless you buy a really big tree.. and most tree peeps.. dont believe in instant gratification ... as big plants.. have big transplanting stresses.. and can take years to get settled in and get established... as compared to smaller plants ... which can take off like rockets.. all things properly done ... go small.. get understock appropriate to your area.. and get something sublime ... as compared to what the local guy or store.. throws in the parking lot.. and your rewards should be great ... now all i have to do.. is figure out.. how i ended up in the fruit forum .. lol ... good luck ... ken ps: another trick.. is to talk with a local orchard ... they plant trees every year.. and they know what will easily grow local.. and often offer trees for sale... at planting time ... basically bare root stock they are planting.. thrown in a pot until you stumble by and buy them.. so they havent been in the pot long ... at least my local one does .... Here is a link that might be useful: link

You know, if I could get the pictures from Mr. Goodwin of his British container garden with the pots stored along the fence, I might be quite happy with following his setup. I say the south fence, because the sun is very low during the winter months, and that fence of wood 7 foot tall stays shaded. Prevailing winds which can drive the rain, will also be blowing mostly from the south east. I have to use the changing shade patterns in moving hosta around the garden, it is amazing how much it can change in a short period of time. Look where the sun is rising now, and it is a little bit more south of east at sunrise every day. And more south of west at sunset. Yes, Pieterje, rain is a boogerbear here as well. Two years ago we had a real winter spell, and it was below freezing for two whole weeks. Unheard of, never before! Then, last year it was back to normal, with temps dipping down to 28 overnight a couple of times, but not continuous. I need not have moved my tropical beauties into my Teahouse--where I had to water them, instead of letting nature do the work. I am now wondering what kind of season we'll have this year, and might need to consult the ole Farmer's Almanac. I have a thought in mind, which will utilize the "metaposts" which you drive in the ground, and then can insert 4x4s to which shelfs might be attached. WIRE shelves, which let the pots drain with no lifters or feet beneath, no wood to rot. I already have a good bit of wire shelving wasting away. Maybe with the extra 4x4 supporting front of the shelving, the fence itself won't be strained. What I like about those Metaposts (Aubuchon sold them online, then I found some at Home Depot) is you can remove the 4x4 and just leave the metal part in the ground, if you don't want that "look" along your fence. But my area in question is at the very back and far end of the garden. I also want to avoid infestation of the pots by fire ants, who like nice dry places on the ground. Lifting them up is a good way to avoid those terrible ants. BKay, with my pot count as high as it is, no way can I keep them on our 10 x 12 deck, and besides, we will be remodeling this winter. That means I cannot put anything in the Teahouse either, because I'm keeping it temp controlled since construction material is filling it up already. Right now, I'll be happy when the squirrels quit bombing me with the Mississippi Giant pecans and also tearing up hosta leaves. Ken, you are such a charmer, 30 minutes below 40....guffaw guffaw guffaw.....I'll tell DH what you said, he will probably borrow that for his own tales of southern winters. Yes indeed, cold soggy media and rot, go together. Last winter I had only a few hosta to deal with, and all went dormant up in Massachusetts before moving south. Where, as you said, Ken, they woke up pipping in late February and early March. Without checking, I think the Satisfaction NOID was blooming as early as mid March?