There's a great kitchen remodel blog by a contributor to this forum (jgarner53). She said that soapstone does not need plywood underneath and in fact she made her GC rip out the plywood after he installed it in spite of her prior instructions not to.

Maybe the M. Teixera folks could explain why plywood is not needed. That was where she got hers.

Here is a link that might be useful: Jgarner53's kitchen blog

I hope some experts weigh in on this, but I agree with thedinos. Our soapstone was installed directly on top of the cabinets.

From the M Teixeira site on DIY:

>>>There is no need for a plywood base on the cabinets to accommodate the soapstone. Your soapstone countertops can go right on top of the cabinets.
>>>

GL and let us know what happens.

Did anybody actually READ the OP's question? OP says the plywood already on his cabinets CANNOT be changed!

A thin SQUARE-edged thin filler strip (not a curved moulding) to cover the plywood will look just fine with Shaker cabinets.

Or, the other option:

If the fabricator is a good one, laminating a stone piece under the slab front will only be noticeable if you LOOK REALLY HARD for the seam. The additional 1/4" resulting thickness looks even better than just 3 cm stone, in my opinion.
(The thickness of my own laminated Caesartone front - to cover playwood - makes my counter be 2-1/4 inches thick. It looks great!)

I did read the OP's question. I find it hard to believe that the plywood can't simply be removed.

Am I missing something? Why would plywood show with 3cm but NOT with 2cm stone?

I agree with aunttomichael- sounds as if someone does not want to be bothered with removing plywood and is feeding the OP the old "can't be done" line.

Auntomichael and Pecanpie: Once the cabinets have been made, "simply removing the plywood" would, in the first place, make the counter's height about 3/4 inches lower and that could result in lots of other problems with placement of appliances, sink, etc.

OP: Carefully think it through.

If the contractor built the cabinets 3/4 inch lower than normal to accomodate the use of plywood that he "assumed" would be needed, then it is his problem for making such an assumption.

That said,I too am not clear why the plywood would not show with 2 cm but would with 3 cm...clarification is needed.

Last but not least, we have had soapstone for over 2 years on mid range cabs...no plywood at all...and both cabs and stine are just fine.

Another possible fix might be have the contractor make up a wood detail trim to match the cabs to cover the plywood. I imagine this would be less expensive than the stone.

Thanks for the responses!
The reason the plywood wouldn't show if I choose a 2cm granite would be due to the laminated edge that would hang down to cover the plywood.
I will talk to my contractor today about the possibility of removing the plywood.
He indicated that the plywood was needed for support- especially around the sink area. But I guess this isn't so with soapstone?
Thanks for the responses- I'll have to look into what will happen if we remove the plywood- then my counters will be 3/4" lower- . . .
Thanks for the info.

Argh! Those kinds of miscommunications are so frustrating! The height difference in removing the plywood might create problems with your other fixtures. I would...

1. See if the plywood can come off without creating a height discrepancy (for sink, etc.). If it can, remove it and proceed with soapstone.

2. If it can't, I would opt for a tiny piece of trim. That trim will only be noticible when you are squatting in front of the cabinets. Truly, you will almost never ever see it. If you are able to view your cabinets from across a room, you would see it, but if the color is the same it should be find. A pro could do an invisible seam on the soapstone edge, but that would be costly (to laminate an edge). And then your front edge would look very thick indeed!

3. Do you really love the granite? If it is half the price, then that would work too. You need to decide how much you LOVE the soapstone.

4. Pietra Cardosa is called Italian Soapstone, but it isn't soapstone. It is a very nice stone, but unlike soapstone, it will require sealing to prevent staining (I think it is a sedimentary stone, and is porous). I have a friend with both soapstone and Pietra Grigio in her kitchen. She prefers the PG b/c it is harder than the soapstone, and it scratches less. She doesn't care about sealing it. It is also not as impervious to heat as soapstone (can't build a fireplace with it), but perhaps not in a way that would be noticed by a homeowner. Personally, if I were not doing the soapstone, I'd choose the PC over the granite. Because it is more interesting, and less common. (I hope I've given the correct stone info--it is so hard to keep these things straight. Do a search for Cardosa or Grigio here.)

Let us know what you decide!

:-)

Francy

Best: Remove the plywood. The 3cm soapstone does not need support. Not even by the sink. The GCs out here don't have much experience with 3 cm slabs, so many are misinformed like yours is. Also, the 2cm stone that needs plywood is thinner than 3cm that does not. The difference in your counter height will be only about a 1/3". That is a negligible difference IMO.

Second best: Use the trim to cover the plywood. The soapstone's overhang will mostly hide this and no one but you will ever notice it. However, your countertops will end up about 1 cm higher (just shy of 1/2") than the goal height. Small price to pay to have the soapstone.

If removing the plywood will not affect the height of other fixtures, make your GC remove the plywood. It's absolutely unnecessary. My GC wasn't happy about it at all, but it was 100% his assumption based on work with granite and not soapstone (he'd never done a kitchen with ss).

Also, in my case, I'd designed my cabinets to a specific height, based on the fact that there would be NO plywood under the ss. The outlets were all supposed to be placed in a specific spot relative to the ultimate counter height. Having had the plywood there would have made my counters an extra 3/4" higher than I wanted (or had designed them to be).

That said, my corner cabs have plywood tops, but they are flush with the tops of the boxes.

3cm is used all the time without plywood, this is the standard in the southeast.

Your math is slightly off as several have noted.
The 3cm is 1 1/4" and the laminated 2 cm would be 1 1/2". so you are only shy 1/4". I would remove the plywood and proceed.

Please someone correct me if I am wrong, but I think this is correct, and may be of some help:

2cm of stone + plywood = 3 cm of stone.

If I understand the OP correctly, everything may be based on calculations for the counters having a plywood base and a 2 cm stone countertop. If my mathematics above are correct, the soapstone without plywood should come to be the same thickness (and therefore, height) as the GC's original calculations based on using 2 cm stone and a plywood base. So, hopefully, other fixtures will not be a problem. (If I'm wrong, I am grateful to anyone who can correct me.)

Good luck! Please let us know how you make out.

Emmie

Thanks so much for all the information! I can't imagine going through this process without the great advice from this forum.

The fabricator just came by with a sample for me to look at. If I insist, he will remove the plywood. However, he thinks it is best to keep the plywood in place for added support. He said if there is a major earthquake the stone could slide off the counter if it is not glued to plywood.

So he mitered the edge on a sample piece of soapstone to create an overhang that would cover the plywood. It actually looks pretty good. It does make the edge thicker (2") but I don't dislike the way that looks. The seam appears invisible so I could work with that. Cost isn't really a factor with the edge detail because the fabrication (whatever I decide to do) is already included in my remodel bid. So if he miters the edge of the soapstone all the way around it will not increase the cost to me.

Or I can have him remove the plywood and continue that way. If I do that my counters will only be less than 1/4" lower than they would have been with the plywood + 2cm granite. That seems pretty minimal.

Part of me wants to remove the plywood and continue but if i do so against their recommendation I won't have much recourse if problems arise down the road. So I'm leaning towards having him miter the edge to make it a little thicker.

I'm heading down there this afternoon so I'll let you know how it turns out.
Thanks again for the helpful advice!

As to the calculations:
If I remove the plywood (which is 5/8"):
2cm stone + plywood= 3.6cm
So the difference would only be .6 cm which is less than 1/4"
I think that would be hard to notice the difference.

If I keep the plywood my counters will be 4.6 cm thick, so they would be a little less than half an inch higher than originally intended.

I'm leaning toward asking them to remove the plywood. Then I won't have to worry about a seam along the edge.

This remodel is really going to push me over the edge!!!
Thanks for all your help.

Unless there is some sort of earthquake code requiring that countertops must be glued to plywood, I'm not clear on why he thinks that it would be neccessary to keep the countertops from sliding off...

I think that he should have to document this policy in some respect...does he guarentee the glue job on plywood regardless of what level the quake registers on the Richter scale?

Ok, now I'm confused! Glue it to the plywood in case of an earthquake?? But the soapstone *is* glued! To the cabinets!! In fact, I've been making some cabinet changes in a hurry, before my soapstone is attached b/c I've been told that once it is glued on, it aint going nowhere.

Gosh, I just don't know. If he can make the seam on the overhang invisible, then I might go with that. On the other hand, I'm losing confidence in his judgement here.

Keep us posted!

Francy

I am STILL confused as to why plywood would show beneath 3cm stone but not 2cm. Was he planning on laminating the 2cm and dropping the edge below the plywood?

Duhhh...

Perhaps I'm being too blunt but I think your fabricator is fabricating reasons to leave the plywood. Frankly, I think its hilarious that he thinks an earthquake will cause the stone to 'slide off' the cabinet. And as a PP mentioned, the ss should be siliconed to the cabinets anyway. What's more, if the earthquake is significant enough to move the stone (which is VERY heavy...as a DIY 'stoner I'm intimately familiar with how heavy) I think that will be the LEAST of your worries. Depending on how you feel about the height, I would make them take off the plywood and do it like its supposed to be done.

As for the 2cm/3cm showing thing, as I understand it, 2cm granite is basically ALWAYS supported underneath with plywood and its therefore assumed that, yes, it always has a laminated front egde.

One more thing I forgot about- do you have an undermount sink? How are they planning to deal with the plywood in that are if so?

Ok- I went down to the fabricator's this afternoon and talked to him more about it. He agreed to take the plywood off. :)
Then we oiled one of my slabs so we could see all the veining and lay out the templates.
I was really surprised to see that the veins in my soapstone took on a decidedly green hue when oiled! (Nothing wrong with green- but I thought it was more gray/white).
The slab yard sprayed it with water for me but they didn't oil it before I chose it.
Now I am a little freaked out. I really don't want my counters to have a strong green color. My fabricator said he would hold off on cutting until I decide exactly what I want to do.
I feel like crying because I was so happy to have finally settled on the countertops. But I really want a black/gray stone with white veining.
The fabricator thought he'd be able to set up the templates so most of the large green veins would be cut out, but I'm still not sure.
Did you all see your slabs oiled before you purchased them?

Oh, you poor thing! I feel for you! You get one thing figured out....and then....

I think how the colors will turn out depends on your slab. That is, on the M. Teixeira website, I remember seeing a slab with greenish veins in it. I loved them in the photo, but the site waid they wouldn't last--that the whole slab would eventually get blackish with no green remaining. But how to know if your greens will last??

So, you already own this slab? Is there a possibility of exchanging it, since the colors are decidedly different? Oil gives a different look than water. What are your options at this point? Is this one of those fabricators that only has one type of soapstone called "gray" or something like that?

No one offered to oil my slabs. They just wet them. And I felt like quite a rebel by grabbing a bottle of oil I found in the warehouse, and rubbing it on myself.

Good luck!! What a gigantic bummer!! I hope this works out!!!

Francy

Francy
Thanks for the sympathy! I need it at this point.
I think I might be able to exchange the slabs but I don't know for sure. I'm going to call in the am. (My fabricator said there might be a 25% restocking fee- ouch!)
The stone really is beautiful but the green color is throwing me off. It just looks so different when oiled.
I'm hoping they will let me come out and look put some oil on other slabs. They have about 3 different "shipments" that are all slightly different. I'm hoping something will be more black/gray and less green.
They also have the Pietra de Cordosa which was more of a solid soft gray. I didn't like it as much as the soapstone but I think it would look better than the green color I've got now.
I guess the lesson I've learned is "Oil Before You Buy!"

Yes, soapstone does look different oiled than it does just sprayed with water. The water treatment only gives you an idea of what it will look like. When we first put in our countertops there was an area that glowed green when I first oiled it. I panicked and ripped it out. Now, I realize my mistake which is that it would have looked very different after the oil dissipated a little and the stone took on it's own patina.

I also have plywood under my soapstone. I had no choice because the cabs were existing and I needed the buildup to get the height I wanted, and also to meet my sink where it had to be. I have a short strip of molding painted to match the cabs and it looks fine.

But having said that, my kitchen only got a simple facelift not a full gut and remodel.

No matter what, I'd go with 3cm stone AND plywood with either a thin square edged strip piece of cabinet stock along the front cabinet face to cover the plywood,

OR

Laminate a layer of stone to the counter edge to cover the plywood. You will love the thicker edge look...SOOOOooo much richer than any 2cm laminated edge.

Additionally, there's no problem whatsoever fitting an undermount sink into a counter with a plywood underdeck.

I also wanted to go with a gray/black hue, not green, and ended up with Black Venata. And yes, I made the M Tex people oil each slab for me (which they did cheerfully). But having said that, I thought all soapstone ages to black eventually.

california dreamer, you need to get the stone you love. Persevere!

(And vizslalover, I had to laugh at your post. That was also the first thing I thought of when I read about the fabricator's comment. Even if he was right about the plywood (which he's not), if we are now talking about an earthquake so strong that it causes the soapstone to *slide off* the counter, then she's going to have much bigger things to think about than "Gee, I wish I had kept that plywood.")

california dreamer, try getting the stone yard to oil an area of the stone every other day for about a week. Then look at the slabs again. The green tones tend to die down after a couple oilings.

Example

This slab is oiled once. . .and WoW look at the color!!!

{{gwi:1577070}}

This is the same slab, oiled for about 2 weeks, just the opposite side. The colors do tone down to more a black grey like you talked about. . .

{{!gwi}}

I know this throws one more variable into the mix, but if you don't know your soapstones you wouldn't know what soapstone tends to do what with time.

Hope this helps you out.

I was reading earlier about soapstone causing cabinets to crack. Would the plywood help to distribute the weight or would it only add to the weight causing further cracking?

p.s. the picture of the slab with the green tones was taken in the shade, the other in full sun. This should tell you how much it changes with time. The sun tends to bring out the glory in soapstone.

I've been putting soapstone in for years and never once had a problem with cabinets cracking . . . I think it's a joke all the misconceptions about soapstone that are out there. I think it starts with people that are not informed or just don't want to work with it so they talk people out of it any way they can. If you cabinets are such poor quality that they do not hold soapstone, it will not hold any other stone. True soapstone is a heavier because it's more dense but not so much where it will cave in your house and put your kitchen in your basement. . .

I hope I help out with trying to inform people about the truth in soapstone . . . thanks for the opportunity.

florida_joshua
Thanks for the photos.
Maybe my slabs will darken over time. I wish I had a couple weeks to test it out but unfortunately I am in a bit of a time crunch.
The green tones in my slab are more in the veining- not the actual stone color. The veins which I thought were going to be more white have a definite green color. I will take a picture later when I go to the fabricator's.
So I'm just not sure what to expect those veins to do over time.

Thanks everyone for the advice.

teedup- I am curious why you think she should have plywood even with the 3cm stone, especially since this is not standard procedure?

And I know you can do an undermount sink with the plywood, I just wanted to encourage the OP to think about that and how the sink edge was going to be handled to make sure she would be happy with that. Personally, I think the thickness of a laminated edge and 3cm stone would look funny to me around a sink.