Just adding a picture of the existing built in cabinets that I would like to save.

Just for fun, here's version five million and seven. This version would mean we'd lose the original built in. Sigh. But it would give us a landing space for the refrigerator. And eliminate the funky dead space dh dislikes. I'm assuming we would still need to work the vent stack in somehow, although I will need to talk with our contractor. Possibly still in that corner of the kitchen with the cabinets just notched to accommodate.

Try not to lose the original Hoosier style cabinet! That's great :)

Do you really need wall ovens? I would go 'retro' with your kitchen. Look for a great vintage sink and range...preferably with two ovens.

A new fridge (that looks retro) would be fun, too. The prep sink in the corner will give you a better work triangle...with the clean up area and Hoosier as your secondary spaces.

Hope this helps :)

Thanks!

I do really want a wall oven. We intend to stay in this house long haul and a wall oven will be much more accessible as we get older. I would be open to suggestions as to which one, and would even consider a single or a speed oven regular oven combination over plain double ovens. My primary goal with the oven is to get one at a better height for use. I also love, love, love my current induction range and refuse to go back to gas. So, sweet as they are visually, a restored vintage range is off the table.

I do plan to use a retro-ish white maytag refrigerator with stainless handles. It is somewhat vintage looking at a price point I can manage.

And I am hoping I can manage something similar with the dishwasher. We have a Bosch 800 series that's only a couple of years old and works great. It's stainless, but I'm hoping my contractor can replace the front cover panel with a white one and leave the stainless handle. It looks like it may be possible, but I can't tell for sure.

I'll have to give that prep sink location some thought. It would not be a good location for kid handwashing at all. But maybe they would use the main sink while the cook used the prep sink.

I really appreciate you reading all that long message and helping out with options!

Here is a link that might be useful: Maytag refrigerator

For me you are close enough to the counter in your first one that I would be fine not having a counter close. I have a counter next to my fridge, but I rarely use it as I just grab what I need and carry it over to where I'll use it. Way more steps away than what you have shown. Test and see how that would work for you in your current kitchen. Do you need the landing space or do you use it like we do. My DH tends to use it like me too.

Love your built in I would do all I could to save that too.

You could fill that corner by the ovens with cabinetry flush with the ovens and have an appliance garage on the countertop. I've seen several photos with cookbook shelves in a corner like that too. Or even just an upper down to the countertop with some drawers on the bottom. Just some ideas!

I think the lack of a landing spot for the refrigerator is okay, but not great. We currently don't have a good one. I unload groceries onto the floor and move them into the refrigerator from there sometimes, which is fine now, but I might not be able to do that as we age. I also use the pull out on the Hoosier, which would be a similar distance in my first plan above. It's certainly doable, but not perfect. Of course, this is an old house and we have a limited budget as well as limits to what we are willing to do (will not infringe on dining room or breakfast nook for example). So perfect isn't happening. ;-)

Yes, I'm thinking that dead space would be filled with shelves. The stand mixer could live at the bottom, tucked away. And cookbooks could go above. I found some visuals on houzz and I don't think it looks bad at all. Dh isn't convinced though. I think part of the disconnect for us is that as the cook, I dislike corners. I find them uncomfortable to work in and to be dead spaces anyway. But I think dh sees corners as work spaces and storage spaces and that my first plan above is a waste of that space.

Thank you all so much for the feedback!

Just in case anyone else is interested, this link to houzz is almost exactly what I was thinking could be done with the dead space in the corner in the first plan posted above. (Stand mixer on counter with shelves above for cookbooks.)

Here is a link that might be useful: [Houzz kitchen corner[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/nordquist-modern-kitchen-san-francisco-phvw-vp~103279)

And here's a really big sink with two faucets version. This version replaces a big main sink and a secondary sink with a really big sink in the same position as the primary sink in the first plan.

We hope to have antique matte stainless countertops with integral custom sink(s) (we'll see if budget allows). If so, we can have any sink size and configuration we want.

In this plan there would be one big bowl and a smaller secondary bowl with a garbage disposal and a second faucet. Hopefully this would allow some of the function of a secondary sink, while providing for more counter space adjacent to the cooktop.

(As drawn this also throws off the bottom run of cabinets in the corner near the wall ovens. If this seems like a real possibility, I am sure that could be improved on--maybe a lazy Susan/super Susan or similar corner system could be worked in. It also leaves an awkward twelve inches on the non-sink side of the dishwasher. This maybe a bit trickier to work out because I do want the sink exactly centered, but again I'm sure I could work something decent out. I am very tentatively planning to use barker cabinets so custom sizes may be possible.)

I'm concerned that you have nowhere expansive to work in any of these plans other than on the Hoosier, which you said is low for you.

Would you be comfortable cutting another opening into the dining room from the kitchen...or 2 openings? One for a doorway and one for a broom closet?

This plan gives you an island. Baking supplies can be stored in the Hoosier, but you would have room to spread out and work at the island. The oven stack is at the end of the sink run near the built ins so it easy to load from the baking zone. The dishes could go on shelves (with doors) under the island on the Hoosier side.

Now you can have someone working on the fridge and stove side preparing a meal. The prep sink is in a good location for hand washing as well as washing veggies, dumping pasta water, etc. You have enough room to set down some cooking supplies next to the stove, room to chop and prepare mounds of food on the island if wanted. Room for a big buffet on the island. Room to spread out and make sandwiches. Room, room, room! LOL : )

This will make for a multi-cook kitchen without too much difficulty, and then you can utilize the help of those soon to be bigger hand-washers. : ) Just think of the cookie baking or canning sessions you could have in here.

If you change your mind about altering the existing doorway to the dining room, you could put a wider island in place. You'd have to move the doorway closer to the original built-ins to do so, though. By doing so, you might be able to tuck a bar stool or two under the island on the baking side, down near the dining room doorway.

I'm saying island, but with the broom closet opening to the dining room and attached to one end of the island, it's more technically a "peninsula." It would attach something like Suzanne's kitchen, linked below.

Here is a link that might be useful: Suzannesl's Kitchen in the Finished Kitchen Blog

Five million and eight?

2nd sink would probably be used as pot filler, to drain pasta or for prep when the main sink is used by the kids or when there are multiple people woking in the kitchen.

That plan would be cutting a doorway into the hallway. The hallway starts roughly where the double ovens begin on the first plan.

We very much want to keep the current doorway to the dining room as is. It has the original solid wood swing door, which I adore because I can close off the kitchen mess when it is time to sit down and eat. (There is also a solid wood original door separating the hall from the dining room.)

I know open concept plans are much preferred by most people, but living in this house has taught us that we really appreciate solid wood doors that close and help block out noise and such--especially with children.

The peninsula plan also places the ovens in the main sink run and we intend to have all windows above that run. Those windows are a big priority for us.

I do agree that the plans I have posted that preserve the Hoosier do not have a really awesome prep space. But all are an improvement over the current space which consists entirely of the sink run as shown on the first plan, minus 24 inches that is currently a cooling pantry, and the Hoosier pull out.

Thank you!

Sena, sorry we cross-posted. Dh suggested something a bit like your proposal, but it eliminates the fabulous wall of windows I have really been looking forward to. Moving the refrigerator to the sink run would also guarantee a big increase in people traipsing across my kitchen while I'm trying to work--to get their drinks and snacks. Ideally the refrigerator would stay near the dining room door to minimize the traffic.

I would be slightly more inclined to consider moving the ovens to that spot. But I'm really not sure it would be worth the trade off of losing my windows.

Thank you!

So I went to play with Sena's plan, thinking about putting the wall ovens in the sink run. And I remembered another important constraint. That run of cabinets is not standard depth. The doorway to the breakfast nook means it cannot be made any deeper than it already is. From the corner to the door is 24 inches. Which means neither ovens nor a refrigerator will fit in that run. A dishwasher does fit--our contractor squeezed a Bosch in for us. I'm sorry I forgot to note that on my drawings.

Can you move the Hoosier cabinet? At least the lower part?

If so...and it would fit, maybe have it by the ovens? It would make a great baking area and then have the fridge on that wall with a small landing area. I put the prep sink back where you first had it :)

The Hoosier style cabinets were site built in here. They aren't like the free standing Hoosiers nor like more modern cabinets. They can't be moved really. I suppose someone with museum type conservation experience could disassemble them piece by piece and rebuild them, but I think that would have to be cost prohibitive.

I know this project has a lot of constraints. I appreciate all the creative help!

Have you looked into what it would take to carefully remove and reinstall the moldings and doors? It might not be as bad as you think, especially since they are painted. DH (an avid, experienced remodeler) and I love the quote we learned from a seasoned painter years ago, "Caulk and Paint--Cures what ain't." In other words, you could remove the moldings, carefully piece in the extra lengths that you need, and caulk the seams so that they'd barely be noticeable. You don't need a museum restorationist to do this, just someone who is careful and cares about their work.

An extra door could be gotten for the kitchen to the hall, or the door from the dining room to the hall could be moved to the kitchen/hall doorway. Or, you could just leave the second kitchen opening as a doorway, without any door.

Again, the doorway to the breakfast room could be scooched down a tiny bit, as explained above. Then you'd have room for the ovens (or fridge...) and standard depth counters for any models of dw and sink that you wanted.

Could you please post a drawing that includes the arc of the swing of your door to the outside. It looks like it is going to wipe out anyone who is trying to stand and work at the counter by the stove (if it's counter) or trying to use the prep sink (if it's in the outside corner.)

I understand you wanting to have a large window over the sink area. I absolutely love a lot of light and a great view out of a kitchen! So much so that I sacrificed many uppers in our last kitchen to get that view. I had about a 5' (it could have been 54", I don't quite remember) window over our baking counter in our last house, and it gave us a lot of light and view. I've included the link below to give you a feel of what that size of a window can look like.

I did a quick calculation of how big of a window you could put in over your sink run. Even with the ovens next to the sink area, you'd be able to put in at least a 78" wide window. That's A LOT of window! : )

I suppose I might be sounding pushy, but I'm really not trying to be. I am trying to see you get you a kitchen that will be very usable for you and your family and that is respectful of the architecture, without the architecture being a dictator that constrains you into a kitchen that's got a lot of light, but isn't very workable.

One other idea (that includes moving a door, grrrr...) is to move the door to the yard over to the breakfast room, so that you could get an L shaped run along the stove and sink wall.

Best wishes! : )

Here is a link that might be useful: Our big window is over the counter to the right of the stove

Sink counter--Do you have room for counter overhang (1 or 1,5")? If the height of the window/nook entry allows and if you can stand any irregularities under the window, I strongly suggest a raised DW cab (I don't know if it can work with your DW though).

You can consider a 27" wall oven. Also, I'd try to fñnd another place for the broom closet, move fridge closer to DR door and have either a base or tall pullout b/w the oven and the corner. Edit: If broomcloset gone and WO is 27", I guess there'd be enough space for a 36" corner susan. And as laughable suggested moving the exterior door to the nook or near it would improve your layout a lot.

This post was edited by sena01 on Sun, Nov 30, 14 at 11:10

Laughable, moving the breakfast nook doorway over would run into the built in Hoosier, which would mean losing the Hoosier.

As far as the plan with the extra doorway cut into the hall, in addition to the issues with the ovens in the sink run, it also connects the kitchen to the hallway where the bedrooms are which would increase the odors and noise to that part of the house, negating the benefits we enjoy of the orginial floor plan with the kitchen as a truly separate room. It seems like the main benefit of this plan is more counterspace, which is very useful. But the traffic flow seems problematic to me. It puts the main work space into a tight aisle that is also the main way to get to the exterior door. It also puts a barrier between the refrigerator and ovens. I think the traffic flow issues would bother me more than the extra counterspace would help me.

Moving the exterior door to the breakfast nook is a no-go. I briefly considered it previously. But it would render the breakfast nook unusable (it is currently the kid art area and often used as the kid table when we entertain). The breakfast nook is tiny and being able to access a door in there would mean there would be no place for a table. Even more, it would mean placing new exterior stairs into the narrowest part of our driveway (the breakfast nook juts out into the drivew way a couple of feet), rendering the driveway impassable for cars.

We considered sealing up the exterior door in the kitchen entirely. This would leave us with just the front door and a door through our bedroom (it's an addition from the 1930s) as exterior doors. We decided that would not work for us. (It also presents exterior facade problems.)

The exterior door swing is an issue I hadn't thought through very well. That does suggest that the really big sink plan might work better. Can exterior door swings be reversed? My front door swings out so it seems like perhaps this side door could too. . . .

I really appreciate the help and I hope that you don't fee like I'm being argumentative either!

Sena, the sink run depth of 24 inches is the total. The current cabinets are about 22 inches deep with a slight countertop overhang. The Bosch dishwasher fits into this just barely (not all dishwashers would). We plan to duplicate the dimensions in the new cabinets (this is the main driver for considering barker cabinets--the custom dimensions of this run).

I think I would be loathe to raise the dishwasher, though it would be functional for loading and unloading, it would make even less counterspace at the correct height for working.

What's the goal for putting a tall narrow pantry between the ovens and corner? (That could be a pull out broom closet, but the mechanism would be extra $ over just a door opening,which is why I had it next to the refrigerator.)

Oh and just so it's clear, I would like to save the Hoosier style built ins. But I would consider plans that don't. Just in case anyone has a perfect plan they haven't wanted to share because it destroys the Hoosier.

Thank you all!

Oh Sena, I wanted to say think you for the three-d rendering! Very nice and helpful!

Sorry, I edited my post before reading your replies. It seems I sometimes get e-mail notifications late.

I thought it might be somewhat helpful to show you the swing door. It has the old ironing board cupboard next it, which has been converted to spice storage. The whole combo is quite useful.

A pocket door could possibly go between the kitchen and hall to keep out noise and odors.

You'd have no problem getting your moldings recreated. They'd be easy to copy--I can see that in your newest photo.

Here is another option. Place the broom closet pull-out next to the doorway to the breakfast room, making it slightly shallower than the molding so that there is no interference between it and the molding. Then start your sink run at a standard depth after that. I'd place the dishes in the drawers between the sink and the broom closet so that they are easy to get for setting the dining room table.

Retain the "hoosier" part of the hoosier and put the stack of wall ovens where the pantry door part is. To replace some of the lost storage, you could do pantry shelves in between the studs of the wall that lines the hallway. You can fit a lot in that shallow of a space, believe it or not. (oops, now I see you posted the spice cupboard. You do know how useful it is!) If desired, you might be able to reuse the doors from the old pantry as the doors to the shallow in-wall pantry.

A small island in the middle, with walk space all around gives you a direct path to the fridge from the dining room and from the fridge to the ovens. It also gives you a landing spot for the fridge, the stove and the ovens. (As long as you don't need to land something from all 3 things at the same time, LOL.)

Have you considered a double oven induction stove? If you have back trouble, the bottom oven probably won't work well for you, but if you are concerned with aging in place and only needing to bake smaller items as you get older, the top oven is super for that. Another option would be an induction stove with something like the Breville smart oven for the secondary oven.

Here is a link that might be useful: Double oven induction stove at Home Depot

The main reason I was thinking 30 inch ovens is for ease of replacement. I intend for the bones of the kitchen to last for a very long time, so I'm assuming all of the appliances will be replaced once, maybe even twice, before there is another full remodel (done by some future owner). I have the impression from reading here that 30 inch ovens are becoming the standard so I'm figuring that they would be the easiest to replace in twenty years?

The refrigerator size is based on the same kind of thinking. I would be fine with a smaller refrigerator. But it seems like small refrigerators are harder and harder to find (and often pricier) and I don't want to be in the position of needing to remodel the whole kitchen because we need a replacement refrigerator down the line. The placement of the broom closet in my original plan is a bit of a hedge against that as well.

Oh, and I was wrong about the front door swinging out. It swings in as well. So I'm guessing exterior doors need to swing in for safety/code? That does suggest the really big sink might be superior to the prep sink.

Btw, Dh has declared that the funky corner is fine with him.

Thank you!

Would you still have problem with the driveway, if you moved the exterior door to the corner where you plan to have the DW+small pullout?

Laughable, sorry we cross posted. I will take a close look at your plan later, must do kid stuff now.

Sena, moving the door to the place you suggest would put it on top of the gas connection to the house. Dh tells me that is an expensive thing to move--I previously considered bumping the entire kitchen wall out along that run. Moving the exterior door at all also creates a facade problem on the exterior of the house, which would mean re doing roofing/gutters. It might also not get through permitting. My GC tells me my expansion of current windows requires an extra permitting step, but given how limited the change is and the lack of objection from the only neighbor impacted, it should not be a problem. I think more extensive changes might be harder to get through. Obviously we could always try.

Thank you!

Laughable, the non-Hoosier part of the original built-ins is 26 1/2 inches. So 30 inch wall ovens would not fit. 24 inch would, but I think that small size would be problematic for current use and future replacement.

The island plan you show seems to have very little counter space next to the cooktop and it slides the cooktop rather close to the exterior door. I understand that the island would provide a landing space, but I think the actual cooktop space would feel cramped to work in. It seems like about the same amount of counterspace as my really big sink plan, just distributed differently with the island in the middle of the kitchen.

It does have the advantage of a landing space for the refrigerator, but I think that space is actually only about a foot closer to the refrigerator than the pull-out countertop is from the refrigerator in my first plan above or in my really big sink plan.

I'm just not sure that this kitchen works with an island or peninsula. I had an island that functioned very well in my last kitchen but it opened up to an eat-in area and the island separated the two.

I think if maximizing counter space is the goal, putting in a range and skipping the wall ovens and going with one really big sink with two faucets seems like the best fit for the space. That and/or losing the Hoosier. But that nixes the double wall ovens. It's a trade off, I think. Even keeping the Hoosier and the double wall ovens, I would end up with significantly more counter space than I currently have. (And about the same or more than any other kitchen I have owned--my first was 8x8 with two doors and a window!)

Here's a version with a 30 inch range and a really big sink with two faucets. Wall ovens would be sooo nice now, but this plan would increase counterspace and give landing spots for all hot stuff and the refrigerator. I realized that if a wall oven became a necessity twenty years from now, we could have the Hoosier style cabinet removed then and put wall ovens in its place without re-remodeling the rest of the kitchen. So this might be a good compromise.

(Editing to add, this plan is rather like one lavender lass posted above. :-) )

This post was edited by crl_ on Sun, Nov 30, 14 at 21:42

Before you give up on the Hoosier...this is what I would do :)

Keep the Hoosier

And use vintage appliances to go with it! Like this range, if you can find one...

The double sink, under the windows...

And a Big Chill fridge...

I would go vintage all the way...and make the Hoosier an important and related part of the kitchen, rather than the clown :)

And yet another version. This one gives me the 36 inch cooktop, but allows more counterspace by going with a single under counter wall oven. And it has the really big double sink with two faucets.

Lavender lass, we cross-posted.

The big chill refrigerator is just too much money for a refrigerator. I posted a maytag above that is more affordable and has a vintage feel with stainless steel handles.

As far as the range goes, I just cannot give up the function of induction. No matter how sweet looking vintage ranges are, I would curse one everyday (and twice on cleaning days) I had to use it instead of my awesome induction.

A truly vintage sink makes me nervous for the finish. I have had a few original cast iron fixtures in houses and they have been impossible to keep looking clean with the finish so worn. Reproductions (and true vintage pieces) seem unlikely to fit in the sink run due to the 24 maximum depth). I'm also loathe to have wall mount faucets because I absolutely must have a sprayer. And I don't care for the side sprayers with the hose hanging down in the sink. If budget permits, I am thinking we will use antique matte stainless steel with integral sinks. This is a somewhat vintage look that allows for a lot of function.

I refer to the Hoosier as the clown because I intend for it to be the interesting thing in the kitchen. Painting it blue to up the fun factor and make it obvious that it isn't meant to match the new cabinets. Everything else will be fairly plain to allow the Hoosier to be the focal point.

Thank you!

The Maytag fridge you found will look very nice in your kitchen. : ) I don't blame you a bit for wanting to stick with induction, and had to laugh at you cursing an old stove twice on cleaning days.

If you decide to keep the hoosier and original pantry cupboards, I think it makes the a lot of sense to switch to an induction range with the oven underneath it. This gives you the most counter space possible, which you could really use.

I think your plan on Sun, Nov 30, 14 at 21:41 is a pretty good layout in terms of counter space and placement of items. I'm a bit nervous for you in how you'll feel working in the corner by the fridge, especially if for some reason you put in an even deeper fridge later on. It could feel constrictive, like you are working in a deep dark hole. : ( Is it possible to sink the fridge into the hall wall a bit so that the fridge doesn't stick out quite as much? That would help things.

I'd replace the 24" drawers next to the stove with an 18" cabinet and edge the stove down toward the door those 6" just to get a wee bit more space between the stove and the fridge. I don't think the person standing at the stove will collide with back door users if the stove is just a few inches closer to to the back door.

The big sink with 2 faucets helps with handwashing and such, but it doesn't put a sink closer to your prep area. You'll still be carrying dripping, wet veggies and meat (if you eat it) back and forth to the stove. You'll still be crossing the path of someone coming in and out of the door while you're carrying boiling water to drain, those types of things. Sometimes that's the nature of old houses we know and love, just make sure you are ok with the compromise.

Now, if you still want wall ovens, a prep sink, and some landing space for the fridge, you could do something like this, but it's at the loss of the Hoosier, and maybe even the ironing cupboard turned spice cabinet. (Boo-hooo-hooo! I really like those features.) I think you can get a similar flavor and feel with newer cabinets made to the same style, though. ...I'm not sure how the door to the dining room will mix with the door of the fridge, either.

This plan doesn't have is a dedicated pantry. Hmph.

It does give you lots of work counter, a prep sink that's safer to use, and no giants hovering over you while you cook (No fridges or ovens in your head, shoulder, or elbow space.) And no island. ; ) Are you ok doing all of your work facing a wall, especially as your kids get older and are helping you more in the kitchen?

T

I doubt that I would work in the corner. I dislike kitchen corners. I think I would work in the space near the window and exterior door.

That's an interesting layout with a prep sink along the dining room/hallway wall. Lots of counterspace. I'm concerned about the lack of a landing space for both the ovens and the refrigerator though. The oven stuff would go to the sink run I guess? But the closest spot on the sink run is likely to have my dish drainer on it. . . . .

Thank you!

A pull-out cutting board could go by the prep sink for landing space in case the counter is being used. Or, maybe you could work a pull-out like this into your plan:

[Traditional Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by San Francisco General Contractors Mascheroni Construction
(Here I go trying to sneak an island in on you...; ))

The pullout could be stainless steel as another option:

[Contemporary Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/contemporary-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2103) by Hillsborough Kitchen & Bath Designers Royal Cabinet Company, Inc.

If you know for sure that no one is going to work in the corner, then you could slide the prep sink closer to the corner. This would increase the landing space for the fridge and ovens.

If you do your cleanup sink run something like the following, you can gain another prep area to the right of the clean-up sink.

Left to right: 3" spacer by doorway to breakfast room, 24" DW, sink (not sure what size...), trash pullout, then the drawers.

27" is plenty of space for a dish drainer to sit on to the left of the sink, and that would give you approx. 42" of counter space to the right of the sink (less if you do a bigger sink, of course.) If you put in a super single 33" sink, you'd have lots of room to set most of your dirty dishes inside of it while you are working, leaving much of the 42" of countertop free for work space.

No, your sink wouldn't be centered, but the gains in usable counter space prbably outweighs any benefit of centering.

This post was edited by laughable on Mon, Dec 1, 14 at 12:05

I like the sneaky island. I may need to research that.

Here's another version. It includes the secondary sink next to the window. I think with a carefully crafted cover and chosen faucet, aka the GW link below, it could be pretty functional as prep counter and occasional secondary sink.

It also includes a 30 inch below counter speed oven and a 30 inch range, giving me two ovens albeit none at an ideal height. However, this plan leaves the Hoosiers intact. And if absolutely necessary down the road, they could be removed and double ovens installed without touching the rest of the kitchen.

Here is a link that might be useful: Awesome GW prep sink set up