Quite honestly, I can't believe that any glue would hold cabinets the way they are supposed to be attached, via the studs. Are you sure this is kosher? You might want to check to make sure it doesn't void the warranty.

Can't they open the wall and add some blocking, at least? Perhaps the screwup is actually to your advantage, and you'll wind up with a much more stable installation. :)

Crossing fingers for you!

Circuspeanut, there's nothing to open up on this wall. It's just a thin plaster wall - no studs, no structure. nothing.

Here are some photos of the wall after removing the old cabinets and doing the electrical. In one picture, you can see some green around the junction box - that's the light shining thru from the living room. The wall was so thin that when the electrician put in the junction box, it went straight through.

So when the contractor was figuring out how to hang cabinets on this wall and make them secure enough that I could store heavy things like dishes, the solution he came up with was to use glue. I don't know what the other options would have been.

First of all, lathe has to be attached to something. It's not self supporting. There have to be some kind of studs in that wall, even if they're minimal. But, since it sounds like it's not a supporting wall, just a decorative wall, the studs are probably 24" apart and just heavy enough to support the lathe and plaster ONLY.

Secondly, if they're as minimal as you describe, then the wall can NOT support the weight of cabinets. PERIOD. NO CABINETS! This would be a huge safety hazard, and glueing them on to a wall as you describe is idiotic. The wall should have been opened up fully and additional studs and blocking added before cabinets were hung.

That's the bad news. Your carpenter is an idiot, but you already figured THAT one out. The good news is by screwing the install up so thouroughly, you have the chance to go back and do the job correctly from the beginning. Tear off the plaster on one side of that wall, add more studs and blocking, drywall it, and rehang the cabinets correctly so they don't fall off of the walls down the road.

Did you have a general contractor involved in this renovation? I can't imagine any GC wouldn't have explained that the wall wasn't structurally strong enough for your plans, especially after the electrician had opened things up enough to run his wires and not finding enough studs. This is a HUGE conversation to have with your GC and you need to find out why on earth he thought that glueing cabinets to the walls would work in the first place!

Pauline, old plaster walls have wooden strip lathing, which once the surface is damaged, tends to pull away from the thin wooden strips and you have chunks falling off the wall. It's not the strongest stuff when you start cutting holes in in, and it certainly isn't strong enough to support cabinetry by a couple of nails and glue! I grew up in a home with wood lathe and plaster walls, and when they were beautiful, they were gorgeous, but let any damage occur to them, and it was a cascade of plaster chunks falling off the wall.

Good call Paulines. I live in a building with this type of construction (plaster over cement block) and it is the worst for hanging anything - it would explain the absence of studs which isn't possible with plaster and lathe. When hanging something substantial like a shelf you have to use hollow wall anchors. I have the original kitchen and uppers have supports that sit on the base cabinets. Have you ever overseen an install of cabs on this substrate (many of the kitchens in our building have been re-done and I am positive they were not built out - maybe double hanging rails anchored using hollow wall anchors or butterflys)? I can't see cladding it working.

Old cabs are essentially built as one piece like furniture which I can't imagine being able to replicate with modular cabinetry. I'll leave it to you in the business.

It could be that it's concrete under the plaster - I think I see some concrete around that light junction box. I'm not sure about lathe in this wall - there was metal lathe with concrete pushed through it on the bathroom walls; I'm not sure if this kitchen wall is constructed the same way.

Yes, there is lathe - I have a picture of the junction box from the living room side. Here I see the metal mesh cut away around it:

In terms of the thickness of the wall, it looks like it's just a little thicker than the junction box...

The wall had cabinets on it before - going about halfway across the wall. They were solid wood painted cabinets without backs - I think the term is "built-in-place"?

I am using a general contractor. In fact, it's a 90-year old company that does all sorts of internal and external renovation. They've done kitchen & bathroom renovations in a lot of the old buildings in my area. I hired them because I had more confidence that a company like this would know what it was doing than some individual with a few handymen subs. Sigh.

Live_wire, if they tear down the cabinets and put extra studs and blocking on the wall, how many inches will I lose from the width of the room? It's a 7' wide room, and these are already reduced-depth cabinets (19")... if I lose more than an inch or so, the lowers and the tall broom closet won't fit.

I totally agree with your assessment lwo, I think we just crossposted. I'm not sure why I thought the op said metal lathe, lol Hey, just trying to give the gc the benefit of the doubt....

I can't imagine an inspector putting his seal of approval on this situation - did your gc pull a permit? In any event, what lwo states is right on. There is no way I'd allow cabinets (screwed or glued) to be installed on that wall. H framing should be an easy & inexpensive fix hopefully.

LOL, I am so behind the 8 ball in my postings. Earth to Pauline.........

To be clear if there is lathe as lwo point out then there will be studs - as he indicates the lathe has to attach to something. If this is the case then it is conceivable that you could rip out and re-frame without increasing the depth dramatically. No?

Rip out the plaster and lathe on the kitchen side only (leaving the other side) and bolster the framing and then drywall. You could fir out the old studs and then build new standard ones that could support the cabinetry between them to keep the depth to a minimum. Possible?

OK, you DID mention metal lathe, that's a good thing.

There should be wood supports along that wall, although maybe not at conventional placement. It does appear the wall is cement with the p & l over - and as caryscott stated, a pita for hanging anything (or moving anything a few inches!) If your installer can hit a wood support or two or hopefully 3 within the run, you're golden.

There are specialty anchors for this type of construct and they work well. I've never heard of glueing and I'd be concerned that all that would do is pull the plaster from the cement.

I really hope this is helpful to you.

Paulines,

I'm making it worse in many ways and I'm heading out but if it is as you describe then how would you proceed:

is tear out necessary?

would they need to build a wall in front of old one?

could they just use adaptive method to hang (hollow wall anchors, butterflys or properly secured hanging rail)

would you recommend one adaptive method over another (as an art techniciam I am familar with a variety of substrates and how to affix things to them but I don't know cabinetry)

Charlikin--a traditional framed 2x4 stud wall with 1/2'' sheetrock on both sides will be about 4.5'' thick.

The kitchen guy we got to help hang our cabinets - we did DIY everything else glued one of our cabinets as it was a stand alone and not touching any other cabinet and there was only one stud available so he did it for extra support since we are keeping our cookbooks and other heavy stuff in there. I would think it is crazy to pull out old plaster but we like the old plaster walls and they have other good qualities that drywall doesn't have - but ours are a modified version and don't have the metal as our house was built in the 1950's. The guy helping us usually does very high end cabinets and did my mom's cabinets that have been hanging over 10 years but his concern was that he couldn't connect it to another cabinet and wanted to make sure it had enough support. Has been working well for us for a good year no issues.

Studs are stronger than you think. It really only takes a couple of screws into a stud to support a cabinet well. Ideally, a cabinet should hit 2 studs, but a small cabinet that only contacts one stud that is screwed to each adjacent cabinet will be fine. The big problems come when you encounter walls that dont' have studs on 16" centers, but 24" centers. Those walls really need internal blocking to be able to support cabinets. And yes, hollow core anchors can support a lot of weight---just not whole cabinets full of dishes. Glue can only help if the cabinet back is totally structural--which most modern cabinet backs are NOT. They usually have a single internal hang rail from which to screw the cabinets to the wall. Glueing a cabinet to the wall is a false sense of security unless it's also properly attached to the studs. And then, it's superfluous and may actually cause damage to the cabinet later if the wall settles and the cabinets cannot shift with the walls. That's why drywall ends up cracking---the studs settle and the drywall that is attached can't flex. So, it cracks. And, cabinets glued to a wall that settles later will probably be damaged rather than also shift with the wall.

Oops, really should have mentioned this - extra wrinkle that came up early on. It's also a fireproof building, so they're not supposed to use wood studs in the wall. There's definitely no wood there now - if there are any studs, they would be thin metal strips that wouldn't support the weight of a cabinet.

The wall opposite to the one we're talking about has all the plumbing on it, and they did stud that out - with heavy-duty steel beams:

{{gwi:1969753}}

If they have to add these beams plus drywall to that plaster wall, I'll be losing way too much space from the kitchen! They'd probably be allowed to put wood supports, though, since it's an internal wall (and heck, the cabinets are wood). If they put up wood supports plus drywall - I'm still afraid the kitchen will get too narrow, certainly for the cabinets I have, and also for my nerves. The tiny bathroom got 5" narrower and that's freaking me out.

Pauline, we didn't need a permit for this. What is H-framing? They considered putting wood supports across the walls and attaching the cabinets to those, but decided the screw & glue technique would be stronger.

So another dumb question - if they try to take down the cabinets that are glued, are those cabinets going to be destroyed? I'm trying to figure out how many of the cabinets on that wall would need to be reordered. Also, would the wall itself be destroyed? If we're considering having extra supports attached to that wall - will there be any wall left? I assume this glue is pretty strong...

FWIW (if anything), I don't plan to store heavy dishes in these cabinets. It's pretty much going to be pantry space, and I don't use a lot of canned goods. (Yes, I'm desperate!)

oh charlikin- sorry I have no helpful advice regarding construction (who knew you would become so well versed in housing construction? lathes? concrete? oy vey) but I did want to say I am confident it WILL all work out and I am thinking of you....................and looking forward to lunch.(when?)
This too shall pass:)

Sheila

You could also consider 2x3 for studs and there is a thinner sheetrock than 1/2 inch. I have it in my house, I'm not sure if its 1/4 or 3/8. We are currently renovating the kitchen and had to buy the thinner sheetrock.

If the space is going to be pantry space, why not go with a freestanding hutch type cabinet instead of something attached to the wall?

Hi,
I've been following this saga on several fora, and it's wire lath attached to small heavy steel members, probably 2' apart. This is what I thought I saw in one of the bathroom pics. It's just enough steel to secure the expanded metal lath to, and get a flat wall with the minimum of material. The iron studs looked like perforated c-channel, 1x1, I guess tie wires originally attached the lath.
How to attach wall cabinets?
My best guess would if they could be hung from the ceiling. Maybe the ceiling is solid concrete, or has some better prospect for attaching a nailer than do the walls.
Or, picture a thick enough backsplash through which the downward force of the wall cabinets is transfered through to the countertop and base cabinets. Then the only force you would need to overcome on the walls would be the tendency to pull away at the top, which is a lesser force than the downforce. Perhaps some wall anchors, glue (silicone caulk is used to permanently fasten very heavy plate glass mirrors) would then suffice.
Casey

Your contractors should be in front of a firing squad not in your home.

They are not supposed to use your residence as a training ground.
You have the patience of a saint.

Your job is a garden variety renovation.
There is nothing unusual about it.

These guys dug themselves into a hole and don't know how to get out of it.
The men you are working with are bad news.

you have the patience of a saint

Just an observation that in many professions (including my own) it can be enormously helpfull to convey information in a very assured manner however in some instances this can make what is supposition sound like fact. Nobody here has done a site visit to your unit and no one, to the best of my knowledge, is an architectural historian or engineer with expertise on the construction in your area or the time period of your building.

You didn't choose your GC because you liked his ad in the yellow pages and while I don't understand all of his choices they may not be as damming as some have stated. Of all the explanations theorized here and with the additional info you provided my guess is that Casey's sounds the most plausible and as it turns out his advice re-affirms in some respects the choices your GC made.

In terms of your question, construction adhesive is strong. The primary worry here (from those far more knowledgable than I) has not seemed to be that the adhesive won't hold the cabinets to the plaster exterior of the wall but rather that the weight of the cabinets will pull the plaster away from the wall. My guess is it will be very difficult to take them down and re-use them which is why the GC was suggesting other alternatives.

In order to do most of what has been recommended here it sounds like you would either have to rip out the wall and re-build it or shrink your space and build a new wall in front of the old one. If you pass on these two options I'm not clear what would be different if you took the cabinets down and adjusted the left to right problems when you went to re-hang them (assuming they survive the de-installation).

I wouldn't like to read about you being buried in an avalanche of cabinets but perhaps some of what Casey is suggesting could be implemented from the point your at now rather than going back to the beginning and you can get back to problem solving what is happening with the doors. I totally agree with lwo about the finishing issues, anything involving finishing has to involve Kraftmaid.

This has got to have been rough, take care of yourself.

From what you've said and what it appears in the pictures, at the very worst case you have 4" or so of concrete on the wall.

I did a bit of calling around and it seems the general concensus is that should be ok (of course it's not THEIR home, lol). Recommendations consisted of using anchors made for cement and coating them with an industrial type slow setting glue (could that be what your gc was referring to?), attaching to ceiling as Casey suggested (if your builing is fireproof there should be cement between levels, no?) and as I originally though, using a H frame (two support beams, either wood or metal with a cross piece), but that may infringe on your precious space.

I'm surprised that a permit is not required. The gc did pull one for plumbing and electrical inspection, I assume and usually the building inspector gets involved at that point? Maybe it's a regional thing....

Wishing you well.

In order to securely anchor my new kitchen cabinets to the wall, my contractor actually *glued* the cabinets in place, as well as securing them with screws

The topic title is really misleading because the cabs were also attached, primarily, with mechanical fasteners. The glue is probably just extra insurance. Depending on how the cab backs are fitted & attached to the cabinet, the glue may help a lot or not at all. A lot, if the backs are, for example, 1/2'' or thicker plywood glued & screwed into a rabbet. Or not at all if the backs are 1/4'' fiberboard that is stapled to the back.

Another thing is that I highly doubt that the fasteners are ordinary screws. More likely is that an appropriate anchoring system was used.

Base for Kraftmaid wall cabs is 1\2 inch solid wood hanging rails with a 1\8 back.

I don't think it's misleading because the original question is, "will removing glued on cabs destroy the wall or the cabs?" The rest of the conversation and ideas just sort of developed after the fact.

Anyway, Charlikin, all good vibes for the completion of your kitchen. If it helps you any, I'm living in a small apartment with no kitchen and it's not as hard as you'd think. Once they finish the bathroom, you might actually be able to move in.

(Apologies in advance for how long this response is!)

I really appreciate everyone's observations and support here! I wish I'd known some of this stuff at the beginning - I'm learning so much as I go along (though often too late). As caryscott points out, it's hard to determine what this wall can support without examining it in person. Since there were cabinets on the wall before, and there are cabinets on this wall in all the other apartments in my building, I've got to assume the wall can support cabinets. (Though, based on everyone's comments here, I'm going to be careful not to store dishes or anything heavy in them.)

Casey, the ceiling *is* solid concrete - in fact, there's a concrete beam right above these cabinets. (They had to hang the cabinets 2" lower than standard in order to fit under the beam - I had ordered 36" uppers thinking they'd just be able to notch the backs of the cabinets by an inch or so since that was how my old ones were done. They told me that would mean removing the hanging rail and destroying the structural integrity of the cabinets. Funny they were concerned with structural integrity *then*.)

How thick would the backsplash have to be to give any support to the cabinets? Would it need to be installed *before* the uppers?

With regard to this contractor - I actually believe the foreman knows what he's doing (gotta believe *someone* does!). I think it's the carpenter who's somewhat of a cowboy and does things without the foreman's knowledge... For example, the carpenter had originally told me he would notch the backs of the cabinets to fit under that concrete beam even though the foreman had wanted to hang them lower - the foreman obviously won that one. I don't believe the foreman would have approved of the carpenter planing down the sides of the cabinets if he'd known ahead of time that he was going to do it. *SO* - if the foreman thinks this industrial strength glue will hold the cabinets in place... well, I'm hoping it's true.

If they have to rip out the entire wall and reframe it...well, maybe they can take up the extra width on the living room side? I don't mind losing an inch or two there. Well, I do mind, but it's less catastrophic than losing it in the kitchen! (You know, it's funny - when I was trying to work out my cabinet layout, I really wanted to move the refrigerator to that side of the kitchen, but even a counter-depth would have been too deep. I kept saying I needed another 6" in depth in my kitchen, and my mother jokingly said I should move the living room wall. Who knew???)

In any case, I *am* going to tell them to re-order the cabinets - both the ones that were planed down (two lowers and one upper), and any that get damaged in removing them from the wall. (Hopefully, no more than two additional uppers.) I *am* terrified there will be so much damage to the wall that they do have to make the kitchen narrower and then we have to re-order the rest of the cabinets on that wall at only 14" or 15" deep... I barely have any countertop space on the other side of the kitchen (18" wide over the dishwasher, and 8" next to the stove), so I really need this to be a workable counter. I guess I could insist at that point that they take down the whole wall and put up a new one, taking the extra space from the living room side as described above... I don't know what the extra expense would be or who would bear it (I would hope they would have complete responsibility for this as I wouldn't be doing it otherwise). I also don't know if I need further coop approval since this would be a significant departure from my original alteration agreement.

Caryscott, I checked with my KD - Kraftmaid doesn't do refinishing. Can't order unfinished doors and have them finish them, can't have them refinish the sides of planed down doors. Just not an option.

Pauline, thank you for calling around for me! Wow! Don't know the details of what kind of glue they used or how it was applied, but it's good to know it's at least *plausible* that what they did would work... The permit thing may indeed be regional. I'm in NYC and I've never heard of anything having to pull any permits to do their kitchen or bathroom. OTOH, all plumbers and electricians have to be licensed and insured, and my building manager will be inspecting the work when it's finished.

Ci_lantro, I apologize for the misleading subject heading. And you're right, the contractor probably used something more secure than just screws. Just my ignorance at construction techniques coming through again - I'm trying to ask the right questions! (And I'm learning an awful lot along the way...)

Btw, according to the Kraftmaid specs, the cabinet backs are 3/16" plywood with birch (I got all plywood construction). The hanging rails are 3/4" solid wood base rails and 1/2" solid wood wall rails. I-Beam braces & corner blocks are 1/2" dadoed into frace frame, end panels and back hanging rail.

This *is* all extremely stressful. Everyone's support and encouragement and great information here helps. THANK YOU!!!

Here is a link that might be useful: Kraftmaid cabinet construction specs

I think sombreuil_mongrel (Casey) has it right. He's seen other pictures.

It's probably Portland Cement held by metal mesh lathing, with plaster over it. Cement is much harder and generally needs a mortar drill bit to go thru.

BTW, I have seen lath, used to hold plaster- to be made of wood horizontal strips, metal, and 'buttonboard' a type of drywall with holes to hold the plaster.

If it is cement, large wall anchors might work, but better would be a strips of plaster/cement cut out(diamond grinder saw ) and wood blocking could be installed and attached with simpson brackets between the metal studs- ( don't cut the studs), but you need to cut through the metal lath. Covered with fireproof drywall strips. Then the wall cabs would be screwed into the wood blocking.

Anyway, that's how I would do it with the info given.

I think you have to know what you really have, and that might require breaking out a section of wall.

I'm confused about the unfinished and have them finished from Kraftmaid - we ordered one cabinet unfinished from Kraftmaid when we bought our kitchen as we wanted their laundry tall closet to retrofit a hall closet and we had it ordered unfinished and without the toekick/base so it would fit - they can do it so double check what the KD is saying as they may not know 100% what they are doing.

Pcjs, what I'm referring to is ordering a door unfinished from KM, having the carpenter plane it down to the right size to fit the planed-down cabinets, and then sending it back to KM to have them finish it to match my other cabinets (Maple Ginger Glaze). My KD says they won't do that.

You can order KM cabinets whole and complete and unfinished. (It does void the warranty.) What you can't do is have them finish any field modified cabinets (planed, or notched, or cut). A good cabinet installer can use a touch up kit to fix a small scratch or blend the ends of cut toekick for instance, but that's an inconspicuous place that doesn't have to be perfect. Taking perfectly good cabinet doors and modifying them is a recipe for disaster on any factory finished cabinets. I'm glad you won't be going that route.

I'm not familiar with the type of lath and "concrete" walls that are being described. I'm only familar with solid core concrete blocks (1920's construction), or hollow core concrete block walls (today's concrete block) or poured in place solid concrete walls. Each of those would require some type of drilling with a Hilti or other hammer type drill and masonry inserts used, either molly type for the hollow core walls or expanding metal sleeve type for the solid concrete walls. Glue wouldn't be in the picture for either.

For the type of plaster walls I'm familar with, (wood lathe and plaster, or metal lathe and plaster) cabinets would need to be screwed into the studs that the lath was attached to. If the studs were too far apart to achieve good attachment with screws, then the walls would have to be modified with internal blocking or a whole new wall framed to be able to support wall cabinets. The wall could either replace the existing (non load bearing) wall, or be created in front of it. Glue wouldn't be a factor in such an install either.

Since this appears to be a wall type that I'm not familiar with, I cannot offer any experience in proper attachment methods for that construction type. I will say that it would seem to be highly unlikely to me to be proper construction techniqes to install cabinetry with only wall anchors into a wall that has stud construction covered with veneered concrete. I'm not saying it would be completely unfeasable. Just that I would be very uncomfortable with such an attachment. If you have local licensed and insured contractors (and city inspected) who have installed on similar walls in the past, then I'm sure there is a way to do it safely. However, it also concerns me that no permits appear to have been pulled for your renovation. Codes and inspections in multi family dwellings are far more rigorous than they are in single family homes. There is more chance of something that is done incorrectly to negatively impact a larger number of people, and thus the city wants to be sure that things are being done correctly. I'd definately get a call into the city codes enforcement to find out what the real truth of that matter might be.

live wire, I'm sure you've heard of 'mud' as used in shower walls and floors beneath the tiles. This is the Portland Cement I am referring too.

Do you have a drawing of how these cabinets are going to look? I'm assuming regular uppers over base cabs, but how long is the run of cabinets? I'd do what sombreuil_mongrel suggested with the thick backsplash. The way that would work (or the way I'm picturing it) is like this: (this is a cross section, if that isn't clear)
{{gwi:1969754}}From house stuff

So you'd have a solid bank of 2x4's running along the top edge of your lower cabs that the uppers could rest on. This would transfer the weight of the uppers to the floor (I'd also anchor to the ceiling if possible). You'd loose about 1.5" of counter space on that wall, plus the thickness of whatever you were going to do for the original backsplash, so call it 2". For me, that would be worth it, because I personally don't think it's a good idea to attach anything of significant weight to that wall. And yes, if you glue the cabs to the wall, you aren't going to be able to remove them without significant damage to both the walls and the cabs.

Good luck!

Hey, raenjapan - not sure I'm totally understanding what you're talking about with the 2x4's... which way are they turned???

The cabs are mostly uppers over lowers. Here's a diagram:

{{gwi:1966418}}

That upper cabinet on the left is a reduced-depth cabinet (about 5") that is hung on a 15" wide floor-to-ceiling concrete beam in the corner. The depth ends up matching the other upper cabs.