Definitely put counters in front of windows. I have seen it here and IRL. I had a kitchen with a similar horrible space in my last house and had not heard of people doing it and did not "see" putting counters in front of the windows. It was a terrible mistake.

Also, is there a way to run a "wet bar" in your dining room? You could put in a drink fridge and move some of your glass/bar storage into another space. Maybe even set up a coffee bar with it? I dreamed of doing that where I lived before but just had no where to set it up. It would have taken a lot of traffic out of my kitchen and made entertaining so much easier.

Must the stove stay in exactly its current location in the kitchen? Do you know what the code is in your area as far as required space around it? From a practical point of view how many feet do you really need around it in order to be comfortable? As to a wood burning stove, have you considered a pellet stove? They are more economical and less storage space is required for the pellets than for wood.

Thanks everyone for helping me tackle this. I'll start by answering the questions

1) What are the dimensions of the dining room? Where are its windows and doors?
Our dining room measures 12' x 9'6" it has 2 windows at 30" off the ground and 3 doorways. One is to a brand new addition to the house put in sometime around 2006 best we can guess, and another room we use for a library and playroom for our son. Windows are on the same side as the porch.

I'm positing a draw up of our first floor here. Some background first. The original house was the kitchen room plus the room directly above it. All kitchen walls I point out have this 6x6 wooden beam construction with large lathe making the walls. Over time it appears the dining room and library/playroom were added. My husband guesses sometime around 1915 based on what materials were used. Also where the full bath and porch are were apparently once open porches that were both closed off insulated and sheetrocked. The stairs up and down are newer most likely added in the 70's. Original house dates about 1908.

3.Could the basement stairs be moved to be directly under the other stairs (that go upstairs)? Potentially something like this which doesn't change the foot print:

Basment and upper stairs are stacked and share the same footprint right now.

4) Is the stove centered between the two windows? It looks off-center in the pictures and the plan.

Sorry, the stove is centered I just didn't get a good picture. Here is a better one

5) Do you need to have the fire screen in front of stove? Why doesn't the door stop the sparks? The stove as a unit would stick out less into the room without the screen, and that would be helpful.

The firescreen is put up to help dry things like gloves, hats, and scarves. Like in the picture you have we have the stove on tile in the necessary footprint per our insurance agent. Our screen is on the tile so it isn't out front too much. Another difference is our stove does not vent through the roof, but uses the outside placed brick chimney.

6) Is it a doable thing to uninstall the wood-burning stove and reinstall it? I'm thinking the stove could become a really a cool feature if it had a backdrop of pretty tile installed under it and running up the entire height of the wall behind it between those two windows. Sort of like this if the gray wall stripe were tile:

We have considered adding something to the wall behind the stove to make it look better. I'm just so stumped on where to put things I haven't even looked into how to make them pretty yet. :)

7) Can the doorway between the gas stove and the dishwasher be moved to where the gas stove is (the gas stove would obviously be put elsewhere in that scenario)? That would create a more-or-less straight walkway from the front door to the doorway to the upstairs/rest of the house, which would keep foot traffic out of the kitchen work zones.

If your the basement stairs could be moved without too much trouble and that doorway to the upstairs/rest of the house moved to be perfectly in line with the front door, that'd obviously be even better.

Basement stairs are directly in front of the front porch door. They run under the stairs to our upstairs. We have a small entry way from the back door that I'll post of pic of here. Please ignore the eating cats and the fact that our stairs are not yet done.... sigh its only been 2 years. :(

Here is the wall that seperates the back entrance from the kitchen. You can see the stove. This is also the original outside wall of the house which has 6x6 wooden beams in it. Its also according to my husband still a supporting wall somehow.

8) Can the doorway to the dining room be widened?
Yup we need to cut 6" out of it to make it 36" wide. It was written into our loan that it was necessary for fire safety.

9) Which are the load-bearing walls here?
I tried to point them out in the drawing, but it might not be too clear... sorry I'm a very bad drawer. So far hubby has suspected load bearing walls to be the north facing former outside wall that holds the window that needs to be replaced, and the wall right by the stove.

10) Where are the immovable oak beams you mentioned?
Seems like everywhere I don't want them to be :(

11) Are there any other spaces on this same floor of the house as the kitchen that you aren't sure what to do with or that have issues you want to resolve?

The layout of the house is kinda akward since it was a old farmhouse which got a large addition to it in 2006. The people who owned it previous set up an addition with a large family room and 4 small bedrooms each with a half bath. They used this as an assisted living facility as the wife was a nurse. We eventually plan to use the large addition for a large master suite with bath. Right now it houses an office/schoolroom craft room and our living room. It also includes another 3/4 bath that I drew in.

12) Could the wood-burning stove be moved? I'd love to put it on the same wall that has the doorway to the upstairs/rest of the house, but even moving it next to the porch window would open up a lot of possibilities. Or (long shot) perhaps there's another place in the house? You said you need it generally, but maybe it doesn't have to be in the kitchen specifically? Usually kitchen are pretty warm anyway, so the stove might even be more useful re-positioned in a chillier corner of the house.

The stove could possibly be moved, but we would need to address the need for putting pipe through the roof. The only place that would be possible is in the addition of the house. I'll draw up the floor plan for that mess in a bit. So far we haven't found a better place to put it without some major reconstruction. In the kitchen where it is we are able to use the old outdoor chimney for venting.

I can absolutely see cabinets/counters between the 30" windows. Having a low cabinet under the one by the porch, leading into other cabinets that are either a pantry (you didn't mention storage being a challenge, maybe you have a pantry/storage area elsewhere?) or run of counters and cabinets...like a baking center or something.

Thanks for that pic. We do need seating in our kitchen and storage is a problem. You'll notice my step stool which is needed to get anything higher up. I'm only 5'4" and everything in the storage arena requires a stool. I do have things in my small cart in the center of the room. I'd love an island with stools since right now all our eating is in a formal dining room. Hard to feed a 10yo breakfast in a formal room.

Also, is there a way to run a "wet bar" in your dining room? You could put in a drink fridge and move some of your glass/bar storage into another space. Maybe even set up a coffee bar with it? I dreamed of doing that where I lived before but just had no where to set it up. It would have taken a lot of traffic out of my kitchen and made entertaining so much easier.

I do have a small fridge in the dining room since we use it to store eggs for sale. I also have a corner hutch that holds glasses for people. I'm hoping to get a buffet style hutch in the dining room to open up some storage space in the kitchen.

Thanks everyone!

Can you open the wall between the lower stair landing and the library, add steps into the library echoing the ones into the back entrance, and create another path through the house? So when you come down the stairs to the landing, you turn left to go to the kitchen, or right to go to the library etc. This also gives you a "circle" for moving around.

Drat, I can't find a picture of such a thing now.

And, not to blaspheme, but do you need a woodstove? Could another source of supplemental heat in the kitchen, which you need only half the year, give you more flexibility?

For the windows, you can also use a standard height counter in front, with a "well" behind, and a little lip of molding to keep things from falling back. I saw this on a historical house walk, and the "well" held an herb planter.

The link is to a GWer who did this. The responses vary, but I like it.

Here is a link that might be useful: Window is lower than standard countertop

Can you open the wall between the lower stair landing and the library, add steps into the library echoing the ones into the back entrance, and create another path through the house? So when you come down the stairs to the landing, you turn left to go to the kitchen, or right to go to the library etc. This also gives you a "circle" for moving around.

I've asked my husband this exact question and he said not likely. Someone back in the 70's put in the basement stairs and removed one of the said oak beams. When we purchased the house there was a 3" gap along with floor between the stairway and library, ie you could see the basement from that room. we had to find some large 6x6 joists and prop the wall up again. The wall noted is a load bearing wall as far as he can tell. He talked to a contractor when we were fixing the issue and the guy said just leave that wall alone.

Drat, I can't find a picture of such a thing now.

And, not to blaspheme, but do you need a woodstove? Could another source of supplemental heat in the kitchen, which you need only half the year, give you more flexibility?

The woodstove is our supplimental heat in the winter. I know its hard to imagine for a lot of people but it gets freakin cold here. We had 52 days with highs below zero last year, and most days we have winds of about 15-20 miles per hour. We are on a hill on the edge of the prairie. We can see for miles form our house. I love it, but it is rural... very rural. Which unfortunately means we also have problems with occasional power outages. We considered a pellet stove but realized it would be useless without power. Also electric is about 12cents a kilowatt. This is at least double often triple what we paid in town. We do have several acres of trees that we will be using for wood, and we store extras from family and others who cut or trim their trees so the wood is free.

hubby and I are looking through the house to see if we find anywhere useful to put the stove. He is also looking into side vents that would just go out the wall and up from there. It might be possible to put it somewhere else, but with last year as a guide we do need it to be easy to get to from the outside and I don't want to haul wood through the house to feed it.

Thanks bpathome for that link :)

Must the stove stay in exactly its current location in the kitchen?
We are looking at other rooms, but we do not see how to move it within the kitchen. not sure if that was your question or if you were thinking another room.

Do you know what the code is in your area as far as required space around it?
12" from wall with class 1 material underneath with 18" in front of door for flying embers. Not sure if this is firecode or just our insurance agent info for our policy.

From a practical point of view how many feet do you really need around it in order to be comfortable?

I did accidentally have something next to the stove that my husband didn't notice when he started it one morning It was maybe 6" away. It was a paper bag with some groceries I was too tired to put away. The result involved smoke detectors and a fire extinguisher... all I'm gonna say :/

As to a wood burning stove, have you considered a pellet stove? They are more economical and less storage space is required for the pellets than for wood.

We did loose power 3 times last winter. Thankfully not for long, but in the other rooms it was cold. Thankfully nothing froze.

So here is a rough drawing of the addition to the house. The footprint is 36'x34' based on the foundation measurement. The basement in this case is still dirt floor. The other basement under the farmhouse is poured concrete and unfinshed.

Old farmhouse is a 2 story and this addition is a single level. I've kinda cut off the bedrooms but all measure 11'4" square and have access to a 1/2 bathroom. We only use the 3/4 bath and the bathroom in the school and craft room. We have looked at placing the woodstove somewhere in the family room here. This is the entrance that our guests use. It currently has a ramp from the assisted living facility and we haven't removed it. We are waiting to do anything with this addition because my mother is older (retired) and is currently in declining health. Its our hope she won't need assistance but we are planning for the possibility.

Have you considered hiring a kitchen designer? Or even bringing one in for a consultation? Designers are trained to think outside the box and may very well come up with alternative layouts you've never considered (although some excellent suggestions have been made here already). A skilled designer will also have a structural background to know what can be removed where to increase usable space and improve flow. And there is just something about being onsite and seeing the situation in real time in its actuality that is hard to replicate online. As a designer myself (gardens - not kitchens), I encounter this constantly - the in person, eyes-on experience cannot be duplicated by any other means no matter how many photos provided.

Just one other thought. Have you considered replacing/restructuring the windows so that they are at a better height for counters? They can be made to look consistent with the character of the other windows in the farmhouse and upgraded to more modern energy efficient technology at the same time.

Can you possibly, possibly, move the kitchen to the dining room? I know, the plumbing is definitely an issue. Perhaps the playroom, to connect to the 3/4 bath plumbing, though it's not convenient to the outside. Then you can use the old kitchen for entry, coats, pantry, egg sales, a sitting room.

Is there a fireplace in the family room where you could place the/a woodstove? Does the kitchen woodstove also heat the upstairs, using the stairs as the "duct"?

I have a slightly different perspective, having grown up in a drafty old farmhouse in Maine with a giant woodstove in the middle of it. Also, no cabinets at all except for the sink base and associated uppers, which was maybe a 4 foot run. We also had large low windows (2 feet at most off the floor, I think). At one point, my father built a swing-up shelf that was mounted on the side of the sink base, that would come up in front of the window with a support leg to provide a little more work space. Otherwise, we used the kitchen table to prepare food on. The wood stove was the heart of the house.

As suggested, you could tile behind the stove (slate would look lovely) and also install some sort of an expandable wall-mounted rack to hang mittens on. (Can the stovepipe go through the wall at a lower point? that would free up the upper part of the wall) That would get rid of the screen as a permanent accessory. Also, the hearth/pad under the stove looks elevated -- could you reconstruct it out of slate or other flat material that would meet code but not break toes? Then storage under the windows as suggested, and/or countertop across the window, and a run of whatever cabinetry would work best on the wall with the new smaller window. There is probably a better way to arrange your stove, fridge and sink although I'm not seeing it at the moment. But long live the farmhouse kitchen ...

Have you considered hiring a kitchen designer?

I have called several places to ask about a consult. Every place I have called requires a large deposit in order to have a designer out to our place. The cheapest deposit I found was for a company in Lakeville about 1 1/2 hr from us. They wanted $1500 down plus since we are so far they wanted to charge us mileage for the designer as well. Also if we didn't go with them for cabinets we would loose that deposit. :(

Can you possibly, possibly, move the kitchen to the dining room?

We are looking at that possibility. I wonder though if it would make much difference since the room is smaller and I again have windows that sit low making a U shape harder to get. It makes more sense considering traffic flow though. We also have the old exterior wall to deal with for plumbing and electrical unless we run everything through the basement and through the floor. Which is an interesting mish mash of 2x8 oak plank and our regular wood floor.

I will say I need most of all for the kitchen to function. I cook every meal at home except Sunday lunch. Though there are only 3 people in our household I do cook for special dietary needs. I'm a vegetarian and hubby can not eat wheat.

Does the kitchen woodstove also heat the upstairs, using the stairs as the "duct"?

Woodstove heats the whole farmhouse not the addition in the winter. We have 2 furnaces. One located in the farmhouse is set on a thermostat to 55degrees and only kicks on at night if its really cold or the stove dies out. The addition only has a furnace set to 65degrees. We suppliment over there by adding layers during school times, and when I'm quilting or knitting in the craft room.

The wood stove was the heart of the house.

Thanks LCMMaine.... it is kinda funny to think when this house was built there was no issue about the stove since it was a wood cookstove in that exact spot. You can still see on the wood floor the footprints for it. I told my husband about a moving shelf and he is intrigued. And I agree... long live the farmhouse kitchen. They certainly see their share of work. :)

I think someone else already said it, but is there a reason you aren't considering shortening the windows? Making a window smaller is actually a really really easy thing to do -- it affects nothing structurally, no pipes or electrical or ducts are ever in the way. You just take out the old window, adding a bit of framing (in your case here, to the bottom of the window opening), put in a new window, and add trim.

I'm sorry, I'm having trouble following the two separate pieces of the floor plan. Could you draw the whole floor's plan on one piece of paper?

I think someone else already said it, but is there a reason you aren't considering shortening the windows?

I'm pretty sure we could make the windows smaller. We do have the 2 on either side of the stove, but if we leave the stove I don't see that gaining us much. If we moved the kitchen to the dining room we would likely need to make the 2 windows smaller for a run of cabinets.

I'll try to redraw it. I took a pic of the two placed side by side with the layout. My sizes didn't match up very well. I'm getting a workout on my art skills. :p

btw... I just wanted to thank everyone again for helping, asking questions, and giving advice. I have seriously looked at this room for the last two years without any clue to what I would do with it. Thanks!

And yes our house is really that big on the first floor. We just have a very poor layout with the addition being so awkward. It was meant to be separate since it was the assisted living facility, but for a family the layout is terrible. Like I said though we are keeping it for the time being, hoping that my mom will be ok on her own. :(

I'd split the kitchen into its functional parts. I think you can increase functionality fairly easily without running up the price tag.

1 - The traffic would be mostly in the red lines area ... put a bench or settee on one side of the stove for warming up in the winter and chatting and reading in the summer.

2 - You have a reasonable "1-butt" work triangle in the green area, and people can get to the frig easily, but you are short on storage and counters.

Reserve these cupboards for the cooking stuff - pots, pans, spices, oils and such. Whatever you reach for when cooking on the range.

Have a pull-out work cart somewhere in there. You don't quite have enough space for a whole work island, but the cart would help for prep, especially if it has drop-down leaves.

3 - Use the purple area for storage cabinets, including dinnerware, and maybe a small appliance center ... a place for the microwave, the coffee pot, the crock pot. Baking center?

You should be able to run a cold water line there for the coffee and microwave use.

Move your bulk storage, snacks and beverages here.

I've redrawn the layout on one piece of paper.

Thank you lazygardens for those ideas. I do have a cart right now that you can see in the pics and it makes me want and island so bad. Moving the dishwasher sounds like a good idea too since right now open it blocks the way to the sink from the stove and fridge. Not that it happens much but enough that I've noticed.

My husband also noted this is very much a 'one butt' kitchen. He can boil water and scramble eggs. :)

Looking at the layout again ... you probably do have room for a work table between stove and frig. It doesn't have to be a "sub-continent" to be useful.

I'd try it out - bring in sawhorses and boards and see what size works. Then go to ana-white.com and look at her DIY kitchen island designs.

Put it on locking wheels if you want to be able to move it.

Sounds like you all are hard working folks who need a kitchen to work with you, instead of against you!

Here's one quick layout. That range in the corner would drive me bonkers - shifting that over and moving the fridge would make food prep/cooking easier. Moving the sink under the window would give you a view, and decent counterspace. This plan hinges on moving that stove to the currently empty, corner, and shortening that window for the sink.

I don't have time to sketch on grid paper, but I think you have a bigger island on this plan than you currently have.

Good luck!

Thanks yellowducky!

My husband said we can run up and across. It would block the top part of the window, but we can remove the pipe in summer when the stove is not in use and cap the inlet.

If it helps we do plan to do most of the work ourselves... or I should say himself. We will likely get cabinets and have an installer since he doesn't want to do any type of finish carpentry work himself. We also have friends that own a granite shop that we will likely use for countertops.

How old is the wood stove? There are more efficient and compact models on the market now. Buying a new one may be cheaper than moving your current one.

You mentioned that it vents up a brick chimney. Is it possible to open it at the base and move the wood stove into the opening? Something like this?

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[Beach Style Living Room[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/beach-style-living-room-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_718~s_2110) by London Furniture & Accessories Cabbages & Roses Ltd

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[Traditional Living Room[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-living-room-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_718~s_2107) by Saratoga General Contractors Conrado - Home Builders

Both of the above seem to fit the old farmhouse vibe you want.

The other idea is to move it along that wall to the corner (next to the bathroom wall).

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[Modern Living Room[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/modern-living-room-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_718~s_2105) by San Francisco General Contractors Bill Fry Construction - Wm. H. Fry Const. Co.

Any of the above might allow you to use the center of the kitchen more than you currently can, which would make an L with island or a galley style (with island, not wall) lay-out possible.

I'm at work...so quick drawing here :)

This kitchen is truly a challenge! The wood stove is a hazard and I would definitely find a way to move it to the other outside wall. It would also be very helpful to move the gas line, so the range could go on the 'back' wall.

Here's an idea...with fridge, cabinet and oven/microwave on 'left' wall and gas range with cabinets on both sides on bottom wall. The sink and dishwasher are now on the island. You don't have any windows on that back wall, so why not see out into the room, while you're at the sink?

The wood stove is now out of the traffic pattern and has a wood box/storage on one side and a bench (maybe with kindling storage) on the other.

I live in cold winter area too...and you do need the stove, but not in the summer. Then, I would have the stools at the island and extra help/seating for summer gatherings. In the winter, the stools can slide out of the way, so no one is sitting too close to the stove. {{gwi:1968844}}From Kitchen plans

Thanks Lavenderlass!

I do really like the looks of the island and seating. I like the idea of not having the sink facing a wall too. Hubby has more than once got a rise out of me by sticking some funny pictures above the sink to 'entertain me' while cooking.

so far my husband has said moving the plumbing, electrical and gas should be easy enough. We do have several spots on the floor that need to be replaced so we are figuring it would benefit us to install a new wood floor. We have done this before in our previous home and it went fairly well. The gas inlet is below the kitchen and electrical was just updated by hubby so we have some wire run under the kitchen just waiting for the final plans.

The only thing I'm wondering here is how the stove would work along that wall since the chimney is outside on the east wall. Our porch is enclosed and this wall is the former outside wall of the home. We have a bedroom (master bedroom) directly above the kitchen with the same footprint.

I'm also pretty sure I'll stick with a range. My dream would be a nice Blue Star or Wolf range with griddle and a double oven... I can dream right? :)

I'm looking at the specs for our woodstove right now. It was installed by us Jan 13'. It's a
Austral EPA Wood Stove with Blower 85K BTU and is 75% efficient.
I looked at the chimney when I saw those pictures and I'm not sure if we could do it. I'll ask hubby if he can look at it.

I'm sorry if I missed it somewhere. Can the wall between library and DR come down?

Suggestion for behind the stove

Make a rod and hook system and use it for hanging mittens and stuff to dry next to the chimney in the winter. Or use it to hang things like cast iron skillets and other metal things you don't use often.

Like the IKEA Fintorp rail system.

Here is a link that might be useful: pipe wall rack

I just thought it would be nice to get the microwave away from the range, so you could have a real vent (a real powerful one! LOL) and move the microwave by the fridge.

You could have a pantry or broom closet, instead of the wall oven...and the microwave could be over or under that counter by the fridge.

The wood stove is an issue! Do you think you can move it to that location? Or just concerned about what to do with the existing chimney?

I drew this very quickly...there may not be room for any seating on the island, with the wood stove. But it does get you looking out into the room (like the funny pictures story) and it makes the low windows work with the plan.

What do you think of the wood storage? We always need more space and I would love a bench that lifts up and stores kindling. That's why I included it...and it fits under the little window :)

Entertain the idea of trying to find a kitchen planner one more time. Here is how I did it. I called local custom cabinet shops. I cast a wide net. I asked the cabinet makers if there was someone they could recommend, someone they enjoyed working with, some other custom fabricator in the area that might have a contact. I actually was able to find a free lance kitchen designer with experience and all the bells and whistles within an hour's distance. Appliance stores may have contacts, too. I live in a small town. She is helping me with a plan. Cast this net wide. I was stumped. I'm glad I called custom cabinet makers.

If your husband is handy, consider ordering ready to assemble, made in the USA cabinets from Barker, Scherr's or The Cabinet Joint. Search for them on Gardenweb. You will find references and information. Save yourself some money.

BTW, we had a old house kitchen problem and needed more wall space, too. The house was masonry with two courses of brick and a void of 18" in between the two brick walls. We had two large windows that were low to the floor. We had the carpenter frame a box in the lower portion of the window frame that was higher than cabinet height. We trimmed it, painted it and of course insulated it. We installed a window that was higher than cabinet height. I ran cabinets in front of the new windows. I put the sink in front on the window.

If we have a layout of the room with measurements - including doors, windows, spaces between etc it'd help to see what might fit where...

I think (going from your 1st layout) you might be able to get your stove and sink on the wall with the porch door/window (shortened window). depending on the size sink you want and width of stove and depending on how set you are for alignment too (like sink evenly balanced under window). Your sink and stove on the same wall would make things easier for filling/draining a pot. That wall would give you the window to look out while at the sink and easier venting for the stove.

your fridge could stay where it is with cabs/counter to the left of it for maybe a toaster, mw, coffee pot area. You'll need to allow space around the fridge in case it needs replaced in the future and you get a wider one.

the wall where your sink is now could be cabs, counter and pantry area. This would give you lots more storage.

I think there might be enough room in the middle for a small island too. Maybe 4 x 3.5? (depends on clearance space needed around it). Possibly 1 end could have an overhang so your son could pull up a stool to eat his breakfast and/or lunch there.

With measurements down to the inches maybe someone could draw that out and see if it'll fit - and be workable. I don't have a drawing prog to use.

and remember drawers are much better for most storage and ease of access.

I really like the idea of a rod on the wall over the stove to clip things to dry them! In a pinch one of those curtain rods would work - the kind used with the ring top curtains.

Growing up our heat registers were on the floors - and boy they were a mass of mittens/gloves/scarves OFTEN in the winter. We'd go out sledding for a time and then inside to warm up while things dried so we could go back out!

If you can move the wood stove to the corner, then this lay-out may be possible.

The vent pipe would be angled over to the chimney, somewhat like this one:

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[Eclectic Living Room[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/eclectic-living-room-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_718~s_2104) by New York Photographers Rikki Snyder

If you can bring it straight up as high as possible before routing over to the chimney, it may not cross the window but go above it. If that's not possible ... well, it either crosses over the window or you remove the window.

There's plenty of clearance around the wood stove but it's no longer in the middle, throwing a wrench in lay-out options.

The sink and range wall are conceptual. For some reason I could not save your image but I could save the one LL uploaded so I had to alter her drawing, not yours and I wasn't able to tell where the windows were.

Another option is to do two straight runs of cabs and counters with the sink and DW in a long island that butts up against the wall. I estimate that it would be 116" long.

Desertsteph, we did the same thing! My grandparents' old house had the large metal heat grates in the floor. We'd all crowd around it after playing in the snow outside. It was also a great way to listen to adults talking in the kitchen when we were upstairs. Thanks for the walk down memory lane.

I was looking at an old thread of mine for something else, and in a post near the end someone linked a bunch of pics with low windows.

Here is a link that might be useful: low windows (last post)

Thanks everyone for your help so far! Last weekend we were heading up to the cities. We decided to stop in at a HomeD store just to see what cabinets they had etc. Met a really nice younger girl working in the kitchen planning area. We described our issues with planning out the kitchen and she said she would help us out.

She thought everyone had great ideas and questions about layout. We went over Lisa, Lavender, and Ducky's ideas and possible solutions.

I had measured the wazoo out of everything in the kitchen and we came up with a layout. This is the first one that I liked the best. She didn't place any seating at the small island in this one, but it was on another layout we had. She said any countertop person would be able to place good stool seating at the island. It is only big enough for 2 people to eat at, but we would only every have breakfast and possibly lunch in the kitchen.

The isles are 40" wide around the island. The stove shown is the outer corner of where the footprint of our stove plus clearance would be.

Layout goes Dishwasher, 36" sink, 36" corner lazy susan, 12" spice drawer, 36" range, and 36" base.

She had a good suggestion that the fridge should be over across the walkway along with a microwave. Since the isles are not the 'suggested' 48" it would keep people out of the prep and cooking area. This would be a big deal she said especially since my son will soon enough be a teenager.... yeah, good idea.

Along that wall would be 2 24" bases and 2 24" uppers plus the fridge and an over fridge cabinet.

Along the wall by the window and porch door is a 30" wide pantry with pullout shelves. We didn't place a bench there in the layout but it would fit one easily enough.

Here is the 3d view looking in through the porch wall.

And here is what the snack wall looks like. I'd have baking stuff over here as well.

I think the overall layout is good, but again I haven't ever remodeled a kitchen before so input and suggestions are welcome.

That looks pretty good to me, but I am definitely not a kitchen expert.
I did notice you have an over abundance of bathrooms on the first floor. Would removing the bathroom next to the kitchen help? You could certainly use that space in the kitchen.

It looks good!

I know you don't want to change the windows...but if you decide you do, here's another idea. Hope this helps :) {{gwi:1968850}}From Kitchen plans
{{gwi:1886683}}From Kitchen tables and vintage kitchens

Well, I think this is as good as you're going to get for this space. I like that the stove is close to the door, so you can strip off your wet things and have a place to put them as soon as you walk in.

However, I would really hesitate to remodel the kitchen without first coming up with a plan for the entire house and making sure your kitchen plan fits into that.

This kitchen the KD came up with is roughly 8' x 15'. For reference, the kitchen in my one bedroom condo is 13.5' x 10'. That is basically the same size, and you have an ENORMOUS house. By all rights, you could and should have a MUCH bigger kitchen with all kinds of counters and storage, but so much of your house's space is lost because of its odd layout and redundancies. You have two living rooms, but no hallway to give the bedrooms any privacy. You have a zillion half baths, but no full bath near the bedrooms. People staying in those bedrooms are going to be walking all the way from their bedrooms to the full bath, through two living rooms and the kitchen...in a towel? You have two sets of stairs that go to the basement, which is one more than is needed. You have more bedrooms than you need (assuming there are more upstairs), but all of the ones on this floor are pretty small. You have a dedicated craft room, plus a dedicated library, but your kitchen and dining are condo-sized.

I would strongly suggest that you look at your entire layout, what might be improved about that, and how that might open up possibilities for a larger, less-trafficked kitchen.

If this were my house, my first stop would be finding an architect.

Cool!

I do have a concern about the 12" drawers - once you add the drawer sides and hardware, you have very little usable space. And a bit more prep space between sink and stove would be wonderful. I'd move the range to the right at least 6".

The cabinet above the fridge got my attention too. Can you put a taller cabinet there, so there isn't so much space between fridge and cab?

it's confusing to me

what 'wall' is your sink on in the HD LO? the porch wall? or the wall w/ 2 windows?

there's a box in the upper left corner - what is it?

there's a box on the left wall - what is it?

I don't see a pull out pantry space - unless it's one of the above boxes I asked about.

that really isn't much usable counter or storage space. I have that much in my kitchen and I live alone - and only have about 3' of prep area (the corner). I seldom cook. It's mostly eggs, grilled cheese, a small pot of spaghetti or soup. My largest pot these days is 3.5 qts. I do have a 4' W pantry about 4 steps away. just at the edge of the kitchen. With only cooking for 1, it is very full. I no longer can or have a garden either. I long ago got rid of my canning equip/jars, most pots, probably half the utensils I used to use cooking/baking for a family and about half my dishes. I don't even have a cake pan anymore (I don't bake a cake for just me).

As someone else posted this LO only utilizes a part of your kitchen space available. I might be misremembering or just assuming but I thought you canned/froze things from the garden?

looking in thru the 'porch wall' it looks like the HD 3D LO has the stove where you have your sink now and the sink by one of the long windows?

it also shows the heat stove at the end of the sink run?

I typed out a very long post about the HD LO etc etc - then my computer belched and it was gone....

I did figure out the HD LO tho.

Vogt please re read what Jillius posted above. This is one of those times where you HAVE to consider the whole house. All the bathrooms... Why?
I grew up in SD so totally get the wood stove but get it out of your kitchen! You can get duravent pipe and pop it through the wall any place in the house. It should be more centrally located in the house than stuck in the kitchen.
Can you get rid of the bath next to the kitchen? Consolidate a bath elsewhere on the first floor? Get rid of one set of basement stairs?
These changes are really not that big ie expensive, if you have access to the basement. I don't know your budget but getting the first floor layout right is crucial to the livability in your house.
My DH and I are total DIY and have done this type of remodel many times. If you are at all handy you can do a lot yourselves. Not even sure you need an architect.
Just don't fear the starting over. I fear working with your existing layout would fall far short of your long term expectations.

I agree missymoo! At least have a plan - even if it needs to change a bit later...

how many bedrooms upstairs? do you use them? where is yours? where is son's? how many bdrms do you want in the end? bathrooms? Do you want yours/son's up or down? Do you need that stairway in the LR to basement?

Would you consider / want stairs up and down in this area? There is more room here than in the kitchen.

I do remember you want a room for one of your mothers (in case needed) - and your craft room.

are the doorways for the downstairs bdrms/baths larger for walker/wheelchairs? (if not, it's something to think about).

could you do up a LO (on graph paper with 1 block = 1 ft.) of the dining thru the bdrm/bath end of house? Clearly mark measurements for all doorways and windows and closets.

you could post that on small homes if you want to - it's only a part of your house. It's not busy right now and I think some there would love a chance to 'work' on it. Good people over there. And this part isn't really about the kitchen even tho it could affect it.

I'm thinking of this only for getting a general idea of rooms and sizes, not detailed bath layouts for now. You can post for help on that when the time comes if you want/need to.

For now it'd just give you an idea of what will (might) be where - and checking other possibilities for the heat stove and stairs could give you a lot more room to work with in the kitchen. More space and less to 'work around' in the kit would equal greater function in it also.

'However, I would really hesitate to remodel the kitchen without first coming up with a plan for the entire house and making sure your kitchen plan fits into that.'

I'm having the same issues with the kitchen remodel. Right now I feel like we are in a holding pattern for what to do with the rest of the house. My mom has been in slowly declining health for about 5 years now. In the last 18months she has lost a lot of mobility because of her knees and hips. Its our hope that she will be able to stay where she is, which is a 55+ apartment building. My sister lives with her and is able to do the harder things like grocery shopping etc.

We would like to take the 2 unlabeled far bedrooms and bathrooms and make that into a nice size master suite with a walk in closet and large full bath. However with my moms health it would be necessary to have her on the ground floor and those two rooms would be for her and my sister.

The interesting thing about this addition is it was put up for the specific purpose of being an assisted living facility. Because of that it has its own furnace, basement (hence the 2nd set of basement stairs), water heater, and front entrance. Its like we have 2 houses. We hope to integrate it better with the master suite with full bath, taking the 3/4 bath making it a 1/2 guest bath, and eventually pouring concrete in the addition basement (its still a dirt floor) and putting in a guest area there with full bath. We also plan to remove the 2 1/2 baths between the school room and craft room and making the craft area bigger for my loom.

I do have a concern about the 12" drawers - once you add the drawer sides and hardware, you have very little usable space. And a bit more prep space between sink and stove would be wonderful. I'd move the range to the right at least 6".

The cabinet above the fridge got my attention too. Can you put a taller cabinet there, so there isn't so much space between fridge and cab?

We were able to work with the girl for about 40min just putting different things into different areas. The cabinet she had on the spec was just one to show where ones would fit. It think she had placed a 15" high one there but it would fit an 18" without issues. She printed out about 12 different layout ideas for us (she looked young an bored until we showed up) so she said lets just play around with stuff for some ideas. I only had one smaller drawer next to the stove which I asked for as a spice rack. I cook a lot and would love a spice drawer near the stove.

This is another layout she had. I didn't post it at first because we had to do some exploring :)

This is an idea that a lot of you had about simply moving the kitchen. It would require opening the wall between the dining room and toy/library room. We made a hole in the drywall to see what this wall was like and found that we could remove it, or at least open it significantly.

We would also be removing a strange boxed off area in the bottom left corner that was an old chimney that was never fully removed. We just need to repair the floor here and we would have a nice rectangular area about 15' by 24' to work with.

The girl who was helping really hoped that this plan would work. I did too :)

This window above where the sink is needs to be replaced. We would likely put a bigger window in at regular height.

The stove shown is bigger... my dream stove really which would be a range/griddle with a double oven.

We were still working on the layout on this wall so the over fridge cabs were not put in.

This layout will also give us room for a nice center island. We didn't put much over by where you see the ceiling fan. Its where our dining room is now. We would likely leave a table there and have a buffet hutch on the left wall to showcase my grandmas china. We were still thinking things over when another couple walked over and asked if there was anyone to help with a door sample. We said to go ahead as we were taking a lot of her time.

" We didn't put much over by where you see the ceiling fan. Its where our dining room is now"

what ceiling fan? I didn't see a ceiling fan in the 2 pics following this line.

you haven't decided if you want to remodel the kitchen there now or move it to the DR?

Those are some big decisions that need to be made before working on a LO.

I wouldn't depend on someone from HD (or Ls) for a LO for any room. We do have some KDs here (who make their living doing this specifically) who would most likely be happy to help - but they would need a clean LO and well defined specs (needs/wants/goals etc) to do that.

You and dh need to decide what you want, where you want it, if it CAN be done (like moving the heat stove to another wall or room, if there's a load bearing wall, where the gas stove can be vented etc), if it's affordable for you to do, etc in order to get a usable LO.

I tried to draw what Desertsteph suggested on Oct 17, 14 at 22:11,

I have a storage bench in front of the long window. The gray part of the island is 51 (48 cabs+3 for overhang) by 40.5 (24 cab+1,5 o/h+15 bar). The different colored part is a drop leaf that can be extended for extra work space. I'm not sure how deep it can be.Maybe, if a light countertop material is used it can extend close enough to the bench so all 3 of you can eat in the kitchen.

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thx sena01! and thx for 3 views of it!

using 3d pic 2 there should be 14' (14.4) from the porch door to the 2 window wall. The amount of space between sink and stove will depend on the size of each of those, size of cab to left of sink and if space is wanted to right of stove in addition to the 2' of the other run. It'd be 3 - 4'.

If the window (on 2 window wall) is shortened there could be 7+' of regular height counter on that 'run'. Great space for prep with drawers underneath for pots/pans and baking dishes/bowls etc.

the hinged sides on the island is a great idea! Growing up our kitchen table (the top was the old diner red laminate counter top with the silver edging around it) had a leaf on each side that slide down and under the table when not needed. It was very easy to pull out and up and to put 'em back under.

Also they could have them slide in and out - like the 'old' cutting boards do. (some on here have put those slide in/out cutting boards in their new kitchens). A cabinet maker could do that. It would need more support than just a cutting board.

And lisa's post on the 18th at 15:59 shows a similar LO with the stove / range on the porch wall and sink on the 2 window wall. That would also depend on if the gas stove can be vented thru roof of the porch and the views out of the windows! That one gives about 6' of prep area from stove to sink.

On both of them there'd also be about a 4' island to use for prep if needed (not counting any extensions on it).

Vogt - from my reading on here you get more usable inside space in drawers/cabinets with frameless cabinets.

I think I read somewhere in the thread that you do not use that full bath behind the kitchen. Have you considered making that a walk in pantry ?
Or maybe a wall of built in cabinets something like this looks really functional

[

[Modern Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/modern-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2105) by East Anglia Kitchen Designers & Remodelers Figura Kitchens & Interiors

if it isn't used, that's a good idea. I thought it was the only full bath they had - and close to the upstairs (midnight trips...).

Thanks sena and desertsteph!

We have spent some time lately trying to really see what we want for the house as a whole. We have put off the kitchen for so long because we just never saw how to get what I really want.

I'd love room for a big stove. I can 500+ jars each year and this kitchens layout drives me crazy. Also the bathroom behind the kitchen is our only bathroom near the bedrooms. I'd hate to walk or have my son walk down through the kitchen dining just to make a middle of the night trip. Also we can't remove the wall since it load bearing.

I'd love your opinions of weather this room could give the counter space and range space I'm looking for. We could move the stove. We just need to have it near a door.

500 jars - yikes. I probably did 5 doz or so. I only had 3' of counter between my sink and stove and my small kit table to work on...

have you found out if the stove can vent up thru the porch wall? If so, the counter can run the length of the 2 window wall and turn onto the wall where your sink is now. plus a 4' plus island. plus some counter on the stairway wall.

I thought you needed that bathroom... If I slept upstairs - I'd need that bathroom even closer at night...