Curious, how much did you buy your cabs for? I have some I will be selling. No idea what I can get out of nice used cabinets.

We were able to get them for $1800. They are RTA's, and would have been over 3k new. They are 3 years old, and lightly used.

I forgot to mention that we plan to put in 2 DW's, and we have a 30" OTR MW.

Here is one plan we're thinking about. I realize the walkways are a bit tight for NKBA standards, but we've got those sizes now, and they're ok for us. The blue and yellow cabs are the ones listed above. Orange and pink we'd have to buy.

I think we could make the serving area by the door to the dining room to look like a separate hutch. I stuck the OTR MW in there.

This might be the best layout post I've ever seen. Details about your family and how you use the kitchen, the full floor layout provided right from the get-go, AND it's on graph paper TO SCALE, AND pictures of features that are hard to see on a floor plan? Seriously, be still my beating heart.

1) Where do you enter the house with groceries?

2) Is the entire wall between the kitchen and dining open? What is the very short wall section in the middle of it (that the arrow is almost pointing at)?

3) Can the opening between the entry and the living room be widened?

My immediate thought is that your dining room is enormous and has a lot if wasted space around it. I presume you only need the room to be that big during the potlucks, and the rest of the time, your large family could really use extra space in other ways day-to-day.

I would prioritize everyday comfort over some squishing and more scattered seating during the occasional party, so what would you think about swapping the locations of the living and dining rooms? The current living room could fit a large table that'd seat your whole family plus a few friends, and you could put a buffet in the bay. Having a dining right off the front entry is pretty standard since it's generally the most presentable room in the house at any given time.

If you are open to a swap like this, I will take that into consideration when I make a kitchen layout suggestion.

Thanks for the kind words, Jillius. You made me laugh, too. : ) This will be our 2nd GW kitchen, and I've lurked a whole bunch in between. ; )

To answer your questions:

1. Groceries come through the entryway door. The window at the top to the right of the stairs in the entry will become a door to a future attached garage.

2. The 13' of wall between the kitchen and the dining room is all closed off right now.

3. The arrow is pointing at the heat run that supplies heat to a second floor bedroom. It cannot be moved. No way, no how. I signed that one in blood when DH installed it, LOL. It fits between the studs and lays flush, so it will not interfere with drywall in the kitchen or dining room.

4. I do not want to widen the doorway between the living room and entryway. We use every inch of the entry for our coats, shoes, etc. We live where the weather is inclement much of the year. Sometimes I wish it had a few more inches!

Let me tell you a bit more about how we're using the house these days. We homeschool and my olders have been using the dining room as their workspace. This works out really well because it's the quietest room in the house. It also holds our enormous book collection and the mess of students being home all day every day.

If we were to swap the dining room and living room, I'd need some help figuring out how to lay out the living room in a logical manner in the long narrow room. The seating is very cozy in the current living room with the bay.

My dad is supposed to be making us a table with leaves to expand it to about a mile long, which will fit in the dining room. No idea if there's a completion date, though. Not holding my breath. ; )

It's not unusual for us to have other big families over to visit, so the dining room could have a crew in it pretty regularly.

One thought I've had for the dining room is some closet storage at the bottom end for some of the homeschooling supplies, crafting paraphernalia, etc.

Thanks for your questions and help. : )

Here's a link to a thread about our temporary setup. You can see the heat run behind the stove in the first picture down.

Here is a link that might be useful: Thread with temporary kitchen setup

1) Is that wall between the living and entry load-bearing, or could you steal 3 feet from the living room and put a closet/mudroom there?

2) In your link, your temporary kitchen seems to be working well for you. Is there anything about the layout that is bugging you aside from wanting a door to the dining room (I can see where there used to be one)? The one thing that to me seems not awesome is that the island faces a wall. I know that is a load-bearing one, so I am going to give some thought to how to give someone who is prepping something better to look at.

I like the plan! :)

Those cabinets are beautiful. Are you just doing one range? I think it works really well in the space....and I like the OTR microwave in the 'hutch' snack area.

You've got to use the marble! What do you plan to do on the island? Could you use the marble there, maybe with a big wooden cutting board to pull out when needed. Who cares if it get a bit of 'patina' as it would be wonderful for baking!

Just have to insert here, that your paper towel storage system is ingenious.

Beautiful cabinets, what a find!

Yes, the wall between the living and entry is load bearing. DH says we can do a sort of mud room in the garage. And if I "do a dance out there, it'll be heated." Grrrrr. LOL He's a terrible tease.

The temp kitchen is working pretty well. I do have a view to the little sitting room from the island as well as the wall. I've played around with turning the island 90 degrees, which gives me a better view into the living room, but it requires tearing out the load bearing wall in the kitchen, and gets rid of the extra walkway into the dining room. We mocked this up for a bit, and with the fridge over by the sink it didn't work as smoothly as the island running parallel to the sink wall.

Thanks Lavender Lass! Yes, we're just using 1 range. At this point, I think we need a simple kitchen that works. Nothing outlandish. I can still get a portable induction burner down the road if we need it. I saw somebody on here put their OTR MW next to their fridge with counter below it in a reveal recently and loved how it worked out.

Yeah, I'm still trying to figure out how to fit in the marble! I baked on it temporarily at the old house and really liked rolling bread and tortillas out on it. It was free, a cast-off from someone my dad worked for. It's former life was as a coffee table. He told me to go ahead and use it, and if it gets killed, so be it. I just went through photobucket to see if I could find a picture of it, but no dice. I might be able to take one tomorrow.

Okay, here is my suggestion. It is similar to the idea you posted, but with a few tweaks.

The main changes are:

1) You had mentioned multiple chefs working in here, so I wanted to give you another work zone on the other side of the stove. I did this by shifting the stove towards the sink wall and by moving the doorway to the dining room away from the stove so I could increase the amount of counter space to the left of stove and on the island opposite the stove. Now a person standing to the left of the stove has 7 feet of counter space (3.5 next to the stove + 3.5 on the island) to get stuff done.

Deepening the island in that way also meant the opposite side of the island (the side across from the doorway to the entry hall) is now more useful. In the event of a billion cooks, someone could also set up and spread out there. And when you come in with a bags of groceries, you can drop them all there as soon as you come in, and they'll be perfectly positioned to be put in the fridge and pantry. The way the island was more narrow in the idea you posted, I think you'd be inclined to walk around the island to the side facing the sink to drop your groceries.

The compromise for these changes was losing the buffet/serving area. You have plenty of room in the dining room for something like this, so I made a suggestion that rather than a closet for your homeschooling gear, you do some sort of built-ins on that bottom wall that include counters. The cupboards can be filled with school supplies, and you can use the counters for serving.

2) I moved the fridge. This allowed me to widen the island and walkways a bit.

The area in front of the stove is just as trafficked and busy as the area in front of the main sink, and especially with as many people are in your family and the work zone I added there, a wider walkway than 36" was needed.

The lengthening of the island also meant that a foot more of it is in front of the doorway to the living room rather than the wall, so that'll be nice too.

Moving the fridge also means there is now scads of room in front of the fridge, which will be handy in the inevitable situation where someone stands in front of it with the door open and contemplates what to eat for half an hour.

Also, in the original idea, if you were at the stove and wanted something from the fridge, you had to walk around the island. With both the stove and fridge moved as I put them, it's a much straighter walk between the two (and a bit shorter).

And you'll save money on not purchasing more cabinets to span between the dishwasher and the fridge.

3) This is not shown in the plan I made, but I'd consider a small prep sink where I have the 18" drawers base cabinet now. I like the drawers there -- it'll be handy for spatulas and giant wooden spoons and all the utensils you use at the stove -- but a prep sink could be great too. It'd make the work space to the left of the stove totally independent -- a person working there would never need to cross into the main prep zone between the stove and main sink in order to use the sink.

Putting a prep sink in that corner of the island would also mean someone prepping on the long side of the island could use it too, and then there's no dripping between the main sink and the island. Also I think a lot of people don't use their islands as much when there isn't a sink there. It's just not as handy.

The pink things are cabinets you'd have to buy, namely:

1) An easy reach upper. As I understand it, everybody prefers these to any other corner upper in terms of usable storage. I also felt strongly that you'd not want the bulk of the diagonal one you already have in your face in the middle of your main prep zone between the stove and sink. Plus it wasn't the right dimensions anyway to make all the other uppers work.

2) A 36" drawers base. You could use the 30" base you already have where I put these drawers (just add 3" filler on either side), but you have no big drawers now, and they are the best. So much so that these days most people are choosing to have only drawers below the counter, and especially located where I put this right next to your dishwashers, this will be your primary location for dishes. I think you will appreciate the extra 6 inches of storage, plus how much more of your storage you can take advantage of with drawers.

3) A 6" base cabinet spice pull-out. This will be handy across from the range.

4) Filler around the fridge. Put however much on whichever side of the fridge looks best and allows you to swing the door as you need to to open the fridge drawers. You may have room for some kind of slim pull-out, but you can't count on that till everything else is installed.

You have plenty of laminate to piece together the perimeter counters with only one seam at the one corner. And since you have enjoyed having marble as a work surface, I'd suggest looking into finding a piece for your island top. The piece you have is too small, but there are always marble-topped tables on craigslist, and you could have one cut to fit.

Wow, Jillius, there are some things to really like about the plan you drew!

It looks much less congested than what I drew up. That's a plus.

I really, really like the 42" section to the left of the stove! This would make a handy baking center.

I like the size and shape of the island. A 15" overhang is a definite plus. I like a squarish island for how sociable the work can be on two or three sides of it, too. : ) That's something I've enjoyed about our current "island". I'm totally torn on whether or not to put in a second sink. The 18" drawers would be sooo useful, and so would the extra countertop on top. But, 2 water spots can be handy, too.....

The 36" drawers are something DH can easily build and we can paint the whole island as an accent piece. That might be a good spot for dishes? Don't know though, can't stand people trying to get under me if I'm working at the island. If the dishes didn't go in the island, were you thinking of them going in the easy reach corner?

The gallery wall is fun. We generate enough kid art to fill it. ; )

The fridge can't snuggle up tightly to the stairwell, which you mentioned could be a problem. I won't be able to get the right door open far enough to pull the drawers out. We do have a 12" pantry cupboard (not an exact match...it was here when we bought the house) that could go in the corner and that brings the fridge out just enough to open the door so I can open the veggie drawers. I know that because it's stuck in that corner right now! ; )

Putting a counter on the south end of the dining room is an interesting idea that hadn't occurred to me. I had thought to do closets with the window seat. Hmmmm.... definitely need to think this one through some more!

I just looked over the ordering sheet for this line of cupboards, and it looks like they don't have a 36" easy reach corner cupboard. : ( I wonder how open shelves would look in that corner? We could build them ourselves, I'm just not sure how we'd do getting a matching stain.

Rather than the long closets, I think I'd do a corner pantry in the kitchen to the right of the fridge, which is an idea I toyed around with earlier. Our entry has a pretty open staircase and some stained glass at the landing part way up. We don't want to lose those nice old house features, even if it means sacrificing some storage.

Thank you so much, Jillius, for drawing this up for me. You've given me lots to think about! : )

LOL, Bpathome. : ) Do you see anything else I can poke in between the studs? It might free up a little more space, hee, hee.

Yes, I was excited to find these cabs, and so many of them seemed to work with the measurements of our kitchen.

Is there any way to place one dishwasher more accessible to where you eat? A family your size will wear a path between the table and the dishwasher and most tableware is not dirty enough to require rinsing.

Also, where is your trash/recycle?

No problem!

If your husband is handy enough to build the drawers, then you might also consider having him make them 30" wide x 18" deep instead of the standard 36" x 24" I have in the plan I drew. Then if you got rid of the spice pullout, you could have 48" walkways on all sides if the island. That is truly the minimum needed for two people squeezing past each other, and you'd still have a bit less than that once you subtract at least two inches for counter overhang.

You could put the spices in the 18" drawers along with all the cooking utensils so everything is still handy to the stove.

Reducing the island dimensions like that would make the seating on the end of the island a bit cozier, but still enough. And I don't think there is a terrible difference between a 42" and a 36" width of counter when working on the short end of the island, and there's definitely not a meaningful difference between 54" and 60" on the long end. But I do think having even just that little bit more space for bodies to move will make a big difference.

If you widenedvthe walkways like that, I would not do the prep sink. There wouldn't be much counter left to work on next to it on the short side of the island, and also with the wider walkways, it would be easier for someone working to the left of the stove who needs water to pass behind someone working the the main prep area between the stove and main sink.

As for the easy reach, you can build the shelves and get two doors from your cabinet company and hinge them together yourselves: http://www.kitchendoorworkshop.co.uk/video-guides/how-to-replace-l-shape-corner-cupboard-doors/

How deep are the upper cabinets? Are there doors made by the cab company that are more than 18" wide, but less than 24"? I know IKEA sells 21" doors, so your company might.

Thanks for chiming in Rmtdoug. We want to keep the DW's together and in the center of the action. I've heard from others on here (rhome410 in particular) who've tried separating the DW's , putting them closer to the dining area with less than stellar results. We tried something similar with a separate cleanup zone from the kitchen in our last house and found it to be frustrating to use. We ended up ripping it out and simplifying to a DW in the island before selling the place.

Jillius has the trash drawn to the left of the DW, but I'm not sure that would work well for our family. We generate close to 13 gallons of trash per day. I don't think that'll all fit nicely into a 12" pullout. We might need to go with a can that sits at the end of the island. Maybe not the ideal, but if I'm in the middle of a big project, I like to pull the can to where I'm working, so that could work out fine.

Recycling? Well now, we tried that when we moved here. Had it all separated out and in it's own labeled container at the road...and the trash guys threw all of the recyclables into the same container as the trash! Scandalous, right?

Plus, I really need some vertical pan storage in this kitchen somewhere. I'm thinking that the 12' lower needs to be some of that. I could honestly use even more, but I'm not sure where to pull it from. Maybe over the fridge??

DH could build shallower drawers for the island. We'll have to discuss aisleways vs. storage and counter space.

I drew up a variation of Jillius's plan here. I swapped some of the uppers since I can't get an easy reach cabinet in this line. I haven't contacted the company, but the sheet I have doesn't list any solid doors either.

I compared prices, and I can buy 1 42" upper for less than 2 cabinets of similar combined size.

I also drew in the corner pantry that I was thinking of. A little space can be stolen from under the landing of the stairs for storage. Actually, I can walk under the the entire landing, but I'm a little less than 5' 5". Not everyone would be able to walk under there.

I also drew in an in wall pantry that could go between the studs along what she has labeled "gallery wall". It would hold a lot of canned goods, which would be very helpful.

I also changed up the island a bit, with some extra storage on the end facing the baking counter.

I like Jill's plan! Great idea to move the fridge and keep the island from being such a barrier.

Could the OTR microwave fit on the other side of the fridge? This would give you another counter/storage...and I'd bump the fridge over just a few inches, so the doors open all the way for cleaning.

I know you would like a second sink. Would a small prep sink fit on the island? It would really make that second prep area work well.

Isn't the dining room a step down? Just an idea....we talked about this before, but with only one range, what if we took out that upper cabinet to the left and made a short backsplash instead? Then a few stools could get tucked under a counter on the dining side (even if it's a few inches shorter than the sink counter) and give you a great extra 'helper' space :)

The little table in the second dining area is small...I added the corner banquette, again (LOL) Was the window too low? Maybe just a banquette on one side...either way it would give you a little more seating, if you need it.

In the dining room...I like the extra storage idea! To center that window, I added a tall cabinet to the end. And a couple of small 'comfy' chairs that could be pulled up to the table, when you add leaves. Just a few ideas.... {{gwi:1964698}}From Kitchen plans

I like the idea of opening the wall above the counter to the left of the stove. I don't know about using it for seating because people --might be too close for comfort to the heat and popping oil and stuff from the stove. However, it would be wonderful to have an extra deep counter to work in, a wonderful place to set out food during large dinners at the dining room table, and a great way to get more light and a feeling of greater space in the kitchen. And it would mean that that work station would have a window and a view, which is so much more pleasant than looking at a wall.

If you did that, I'd go with a range hood that is a stand-alone item (one with a slim, light appearance) rather than installing the above-stove cabinet with a hood in or under it. The latter would crowd the opening to the dining.

DH and I had a look at the plans together tonight. He's not crazy about the fridge next to the sink and DW at all. (I learned something new, always a good thing.) He likes it tucked in under the stairs.

We both feel a need for as much storage as possible, as opposed to wider walkways.

I also think storage might trump opening up the kitchen to the dining room next to the stove. Oh that's hard to say, I love the view out that way! But, I need a place to put all of our stuff. My kids also need a quiet place to work. If we leave it closed off, we can put French doors to the dining room from the kitchen and hall and really buffer that space.

Lavender, I like how you divied up the space around the window at the south end of the dining room. I could not, for the life of me, figure out how to give it some visual balance. (I don't know who designed the layout of the windows for that room. I've never seen anything so random in my life. Maybe they designed them around specific furniture pieces???? Makes me shake my head with wonder.)

We're planning to put a wood furnace in to heat the whole house. If it works well at warming the dining room, the wood stove area will be removed from the plan.

Here's what I came up with after looking at your 2's designs and talking with DH:

We discussed sending the fridge a little further back under the stairs (farther from the stove??) and put some shelves in behind the fridge, accessible to the entryway.

I was trying to put in a 42" corner pantry to the right of the DW, but it looked like it would conflict with the fridge, so I squared it off to be even with the counter.

Then I stuck the 18" drawers under the stairs, with some shelves above. My thought was to make the shelves come forward so that their fronts would be flush with the drawer fronts, and they would be 12-15" deep, not 18". They could go all the way down to the drawer stack to hold cookbooks and such.

Not super successful at finding a picture. This comes close, in more modern looking way (picture drawers in the bottom half) next to the fridge in this picture:

[

[Transitional Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/transitional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2112) by Ardmore General Contractors Pinemar, Inc

Open shelves above the right hand DW, running the full 2' depth along the pantry. Somewhat like this, but not sitting on the counter:

[

[Beach Style Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/beach-style-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2110) by Madison Interior Designers & Decorators Jules Duffy Designs

A 36" drawer stack and the 42" cabinet, cut to a shallower depth for the island.

The 30" cabinet and upper to the left of the stove.

And the serving counter back in place, which helps give us more countertop and storage.

As you have the island configured now, over the 36" drawers would be a natural place to put your piece of marble, and it is the right size. Like this:

(Put the marble where the wood counter is.). The rest of the island can be topped with the wood you mentioned. With the seating as you have it to the right, having the island materials change between the seating section versus the baking section would make sense, more so even than it does in that picture I posted. Plus your marble counter would be directly handy to the ovens without actually being over or immediately next to the ovens. This means the marble would stay cool even when the oven is preheating in preparation for whatever you are rolling out.

The rest of the layout seems good to me, except:

1) I am still really not feeling the diagonal corner cabinet jutting into the main prep area. The walkway is already tight, and people will definitely be squeezing behind the main prepper to get to the sole sink. You don't want the face space to be tight and cramped for that poor person too. I would hate working like that so much. Particularly if you have any tall family members. I am only 5'9" (height of the average man), but even now, I am sensitive about cabinets and things like pendant lights being right in my face when I am cooking. I can't imagine being a taller-than-average man (or a super tall woman, of course) trying to work right in front of one of those corner cabinets. Would drive me totally bonkers.

Since easy reach isn't an option, I would do a blind corner here. Buy a 36" upper box and a 21" door and a piece of filler for the corner (the filler allows the perpendicular doors to both close without whacking each other). Put all that to the right of the stove, and then on the sink wall, abutt your 30" upper against the 36" box, and then put a 12" between the 30" and the sink.

In addition to getting rid of the diagonal corner cabinet, this set-up gives the window a touch more breathing room. Breathing room is what make rooms look sort of easy and airy and not stuffed to the gills, and that visual suggestion in turn makes you feel less cramped when you're in them. Also, that breathing room would be a great place to hang a dishtowel against the side of the upper without blocking any part of the window.

2) I would like the counter to the left of the sink to line up with the island. It would look better/more deliberate, and it would just be nice to have the extra six inches of counter and storage. I would buy a 36" stack of drawers to be the base (you will never regret the storage benefits of more drawers) and put the 24" and 12" uppers newly freed up from the corner above it.

3) You don't have the walkway space to have the garbage sitting out in it all the time. I would find a nook for the garbage somewhere in the island, or perhaps in the alcove next to the fridge where you currently have the 18" drawers (they could go in the pantry instead). Devise a nook that is easy to pull the garbage from for when you want it next to you during project. The idea is just that it will have a home out of the way at all other times.

I like the marble on the island!

After seeing your pictures, Laughable...I want to ask, can you move the window?

Here's an idea with windows on each side of the range, prep sink across (both close to fridge) and clean up area overlooking dining room. It would also give you space for the hood, without blocking the view (after swapping with sink location).

You could add a second dishwasher, next to the main sink or the prep sink in the island. This would give you multiple work areas and clean up closer to the dining room. {{gwi:1964703}}From Kitchen plans

In that corner, I was thinking something like this picture...like the window, too! {{gwi:1964704}}From Kitchen plans

And this picture gave me the idea...with range across from sink on island and closer to fridge :) {{gwi:1964705}}From Kitchen plans

Thank you both for sticking with me on this one.

Jillius, I love the picture you linked with the distinctions in counter surfaces. I can see the marble working reaaaally well at the end facing the stove. Whoo-hoo! I'd love to have a heatproof spot to set things coming out of the oven, in addition to rolling doughs and such on it. That's a great solution.

I understand you wanting more head space in the kitchen, that makes a lot of sense to me. I'm giving that some serious thought, as I've struggled with feeling claustrophobic when cabinets are jutting toward my head, and I'm almost 5" shorter than you are! Must think through this one some more...

I'm not sure I'm understanding suggestion number 2 clearly. Are you saying to do just one dw to the right of the sink, and removing the dw and 12" base to the left of the sink to make room for a 36" bank of drawers?

I'm stumped by the garbage, LOL. Which would be better: To put the garbage under 1/2 the marble, so an 18" bank of drawers + 18" trash cupboard, or... to put the trash in the 18" alcove down by the fridge. I know where we use it most (by the island), but, by golly, I'd make excellent use of those 36" drawers if they went under the marble slab.

Lavender, I like the marble idea, too. : )

And you're a-stirrin' up trouble, LOL. DH just put the new window in a couple of weeks ago (finished it up about 10:30 at night, in the pouring rain, with no gutter overhead....Chinese water torture, for sure), and I don't think he'd be too keen on replacing it again right away. Also, where the sink lands in your sketch is where the heat run goes to the upstairs.

Otherwise, that probably would have been a very good plan. ; ) The dishes could have gone straight from the DW into that 6' hutch. Pooh.

Did you try the fridge at the bottom 6' wall? The 12" pantry can go b/w the DR wall and fridg,e then a cab and maybe 1 or 2 stools.

One more with a peninsula. While accesing the fridge from the front of the house wouldn't be easy, this arrangement can give you more storage and counter imo.

I can see why you were confused about number two. I meant to say, "I would like the counter to the left of the STOVE (not sink!) to line up with the island. It would look better/more deliberate, and it would just be nice to have the extra six inches of counter and storage. I would buy a 36" stack of drawers to be the base (you will never regret the storage benefits of more drawers) and put the 24" and 12" uppers newly freed up from the corner above it."

Meaning, remove your 30" base currently left of the stove and put 36" drawers there instead.

Having those drawers there might make you feel better about having 18" drawers and the trash under the marble instead of the 36" drawers under the marble.

This post was edited by Jillius on Sun, Nov 2, 14 at 13:10

Thanks for chiming in, Sena01! I tried drawing up the fridge per your suggestion with the 12" pantry cab next to it. It made for a tight squeeze by it into the dining room, unfortunately. I see so many layouts just like you describe, but no matter how hard I try to make them work here, they won't squeeze into my 13' wide space! Huh! I'm thinking those "other kitchens" are just a little bit wider than ours. Our 36" deep fridge (which we are really enjoying) doesn't help matters, either.

We think the Peninsula idea, although it would give us more storage and counter, is too much of an obstruction for our high traffic flow.

Oh, Jillius, NOW I understand what you meant! LOL. I was totally mystified before. One little S word changes everything. ; )

A 36" cupboard next to the stove makes that walkway just a little bit too tight heading into the dining room.

But, I did think about what you said about lining up the island to make it more deliberate. And I really struggled with what seemed like a small pantry for our size family. Then I realized that if I gave up the "serving area" and put a pantry there (6' of pantry--nice!) and put the 42" base between the sink and the fridge, it might solve things.

The only issue is that we don't have a long enough piece of counter to fit the entire run along the window wall. DH's suggestion is that we solve that by changing heights of the countertop and make the 42" section look like a hutch, like this:

[

[Traditional Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107)

I measured the face front of our upper corner cabinet, and it looks like we can adapt it to make that the front of the 18" shelves that are inset in the wall next to the fridge. Woo-hoo!

We had a little problem with fitting the cupboard over the fridge because of the angle of the stairs above, but DH realized the 24x24x 36 upper would fit by sliding it under the stairs and be openable to that bit of hall between the kitchen and front door. He'll have to drywall over the portion that faces the kitchen. So, that will make 2 inset cabinets around the fridge.

I can fit one of my current tall pine cupboards that he made against the chimney wall, which might be nice, as long as it doesn't impinge the walkway too much.

Marble on the 30" cabinet next to the stove.

Now the big question: Prep sink in the island or no????

I like the pantry swap. It is something I actually considered way back when - long runs of shallow shelves/cupboards are the best pantries in my opinion. And the kitchen feels so much roomier now. And it is another (42"!) work space to the right of the sink. Put the microwave under the counter in the 42" section, and it is a great snack spot with its proximity to the fridge and sink. And if the hutch is where your dishes go (which it should be with the dishwasher right there), that works very well for people grabbing dishes for their snacks without entering any primary prep/cooking areas too.

However, I really preferred your last island configuration. In this new one, you have nearly no drawers at all in the kitchen, and the chair opposite the fridge is going to be a terrible point of congestion. A lot of room is needed in front of the fridge for the common situation where a person is standing in front of the fridge with the door open taking many minutes to decide what to eat. The depth of fridge door + the outstretched arm holding it + a body is usually enough to block or severely impede any walkway. The standards for walkway space needed if people are going to be passing behind a sitting person (just passing, not even the extra-depth-requiring-fridge-situation behind them) is 60". There is a similar walkway issue with the chair closest to the stove backing up to the pantry.

I had thought it so clever when you had the two chairs in the island only and had bumped them to the right, so they could both back up against that big open doorway. That allows for tons if room for people to walk by and created such a natural place for the marble opposite the stove where it is handy to the ovens but won't be warmed by them. I really think you should go with that plan for the island. It just worked SO well.

Also, a suggestion. Make the pantry only 12" deep (depth of an upper cabinet) from the wall, but inset all the stud bays inside the pantry for extra depth (what you were planning to do for can storage). That would make your actual pantry cupboard depth about 14-15" in most places, which is ideal (deeper than that, and stuff gets lost in the back), but it takes only 12" from that walkway. Then both the counter left of the stove and the width of the island can go back to being 36" without pinching the dining room doorway. That is more counter, more marble, and more storage (5.5' length of island x 6" extra width x 35" height = 8 cubic feet of more storage just in the island, plus 24" depth next to stove x 6" extra width x 35" height = almost 3 cubic feet more storage next to the stove not including the extra space you'd also gain in the upper cabinet). All without really sacrificing anything from the pantry.

Lastly, I think you will find that the tall pine cabinet pinches the walkway too much, but that is a decision you can make when everything else is in place.

And having the trash in the walkway still isn't my favorite plan. Maybe you can do a 12" trash pullout in that 12" base cab between the stove and sink that is just for the prep spaces to use and put another can where you wanted the tall pine cabinet to go for all other trash. Just make that can not so wide that it pinches the walkway by the island corner, and use the above the fridge cabinet for your tall vertical storage that you have wanted that 12" base for. Like this:

I'd say yes to a prep sink in the island. As children grow you may have other helpers in the kitchen.

We think it would be helpful to have another opening from the kitchen to the dining room.

Does it have to be a door? If a passthru would be enough, then you can have more cabs next to the range and a walk (or squeeze) in pantry in the corner.

I like the suggestions you've made Jillius. I didn't color in the island in the latest iteration...because I wasn't sure what to do with it. : ) I was hesitating on shallowing up the pantry because I have grain bins that are huge. But, I just measured them, and if I put them in sideways, they are then 11" deep. So, the 12-13" deep pantry will work-yay! They'll be a teeny bit more challenging to get in and out, but the gains in the rest of the kitchen are worth it.

As far as the vertical storage goes, I found this inspiration pantry picture. (I'd put the vert. storage higher off the floor.) It will put my cooling racks, cookie sheets and such right by the stove where I use them.

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[Traditional Closet[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-closet-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_734~s_2107) by New York Closet & Home Storage Designers California Closets -New York Metro Area I think I'll put less-frequently used items above the fridge since it hard for my family full of shorties to reach up there.

Sena, I love your 3D renderings. They are so helpful for visualizing the space. Would you be willing to do some pics with the changes that Jillius just mentioned? (Shallow up the pantry, make the cupboards to the left of the stove 36", redo the island as 36"x65" with seating only toward the wide opening, taking out the pine cupboard for the time being).

I'd really like to keep the walkway open between the kitchen and dining room. When we have big groups over with a million little people running around, and with some friends who have "lots to love" : ), a line of people waiting to use the bathroom, etc., it will be nice to have 2 options for getting around our space.

If we do the marble on the island, what should I do about a prep sink? I'm still stumped. : / I have lots of helpers NOW, let alone a few years from now when our kids are even more independent. I had 2 sinks in our last kitchen, and I haven't found it that terribly inconvenient to be back to one, but we haven't hosted any large gatherings yet, either, which is another time it's handy to have 2 sinks.

Thank you both!

If when you really need it is at gatherings, maybe a good compromise is putting a prep sink in the homeschooling supplies/serving counter in the dining room? Maybe it could be more of a kitchenette to help with kitchen function overflow during large gatherings and snacks/drinks/science experiments/art projects during homeschooling. A kitchenette with lots if storage to hold homeschooling supplies as well.

Or you could put the marble to the left of the stove and a prep sink in the island. I just worry at how the counter across from the stove will no longer be very useful as a prep space with so little usable counter space left when the sink is taking almost half if it. It'd be more of a landing space than a work space, so people prepping at the island would more likely just use the long side, back to back with the main sink. And the marble would be warmed by the ovens.

I guess you just have to decide if more usable counter space is worth more to you than a second sink, or vice versa. I am a baker, so I am very very very biased in this regard, but I would want more space to spread out my baking stuff.

Here is an example of small prep sink (behind flowers) on island.
{{gwi:1964712}}From Stairs, landing, entry, etc.

Another one... {{gwi:1964713}}From Stairs, landing, entry, etc.

And put the wood/cutting board on the section of the island...across from the fridge :)

Incidentally, I just looked up the price of more of the laminate, and was like $87 at Lowe's. That is so cheap that I would totally just get more for the stretch to the right of the main sink. The hutch is pretty, but the counter would be so much more usable (and easier to clean) if it were all the same height and continuous and not divided by the side panels of the hutch. Your storage amounts would remain identical, so it would only add to the functionality of the kitchen.

Another garbage option is getting a sink with an offset drain so a trash can pullout would fit under the sink.

Hello again. : ) An extra sink in the dining room is an option to think about and discuss with DH. It's definitely something we could look into doing farther down the road.

We bake a lot too, and tend to spread over the whole "island" we have now, which is part of my reluctance to take up some space with the prep sink. We also cut up a lot of fresh veggies, and that's where the prep sink can really shine. That, and as a place for getting goopy dough off my hands.

Lavender, I always enjoy seeing your pictures. They aren't showing up. Do you know where they might have gone?

I just looked on Lowe's site for their Soapstone Sequoia. Well...it is $87... for a 4x8 sheet. We've worked with that in the past and had some success. It does require buying the particle board like stuff, too. It would require doing at least 1 seam somewhere along the 14' 7.5" length. If we used the flat sheets, it wouldn't match the rolled edge of the post-formed section we have now. Spills on the flat sheets have no stopping point. The rolled edges really help with spillage.

The sections like we bought have a maximum length of, I think, 12'. So, still not long enough.

If we do the "hutch" to the right of the sink, I will not be dropping the sides of the top cabinet all the way to the counter. It will still be 2 different heights to clean, but I won't have walls in the way from one surface to the next.

A lower area somewhere in the kitchen is handy for the little people. I even thought about lowering the marble area on the island. Not only for rolling dough, or for my kids, but for me. There are often times when I am transferring food from huge pots (a big pot of soup to a crock pot for church, or big pots of food to freezer containers, for example), and it's really nice to have them lower than counter height during the job. I've enjoyed that with my little dresser turned temporary counter. I'm still undecided on this decision, too.

Here are a few renderings. I'm not clear what you're doing above the fridge, so just ignore that part and also that the upper part of the hutch is reaching the counter. I noticed the 10" upper on the right of the window late. So it's included only on the 3rd rendering.

And last one with same height counter for the hutch. I extended the upper part a little over the DW and omitted the 10" upper there.

I hope I got them right. It's already Tuesday here (2:40 a.m.). Luckily I'm retired and have only a 25 year old son:))

Sena, these pictures look AMAZING. Thank you so much! I'm sorry to hear you lost good sleep over them, though. Please get some much needed rest.

It's super helpful to see the kitchen in this way. I can really see that we need to give the window some space around it. I knew this in my head, and DH and I had some lively discussions about that when we were trying to pick the window size, but it really comes to light seeing these images.

I actually really like seeing the drywall above the fridge. It makes it feel brighter along that wall, which is nice since the fridge is so large and dark. Now I'm not even sure if I want to build those shelves into the wall next to the fridge. It might look lest crammed with it just as a plain wall.

Our whole kitchen is so dark right now it's hard to believe it will ever be a bright space like these show. Even before we remodeled, the old cupboards were such a dark brown they looked almost black. It's a north facing room, so I'm not sure what to expect (other than to plan for gobs of artificial light in there.) One good thing is that it will gain some light from the dining room when we open it up. : )

Again, thank you for the renderings (((Cyberhug)))). : )

DH is already sleeping. Think he'd mind if I woke him up to show him the pictures? No? OK, I'll just have to try to wait until tomorrow...