This is all really great advice and feedback. I really appreciate everyone's comments.

I have a budget for the kitchen remodel. I have a floor plan too - so I know where the outlets need to go and the appliances. As most of my appliances are new-ish except for the range, I'll only be buying a range- upgrade from what I have now.

The cabinet builder has been the biggest delay for me. It's been 2 weeks of promising me the written quote and so far nothing.

I've toured the cabinet facility and spent a lot of time getting information and now need the numbers. The cabinet guy is pretty high-end (and cost), but does good work. I know that "my job" is not the biggest project as he does a lot of work for high-end homes where spending $100k for cabinets is no big deal. He's shown me the work he's done, which is how I know.

My cabinet piece should run closer to the $20k range...per the cabinet guy - which to me, is a sizeable price. But, for custom build, it seems to be the expected price.

I was able to get the electrical quote today (hooray!) and will probably just go with it to get this checked off the list.

I have a carpenter I've used before coming by Monday to give me a quote on knocking out a wall and building a refrigerator recess.

I still need a plumber though.....

Overall, I'm pretty close to pulling the trigger on this project and don't feel like I'm giving an impression that I'm just window shopping.

Really...in my experience its worth the little extra money to hire GC to deal with all of it. The subs are gong to respond better to them and are much more likely to do things on time and on budget so that the GC will give them more work in the future. An individual homeowner is not likely going to remodel or build a house several times a year and so are at the bottom of the priority list. As opposed to a professional GC who can keep them working.

amylou pretty much sums it up
If you can and are willing to pay a 10-20% fee (in our area) and not deal with the subs, hire a GC...

I think you nailed it Amylou....and the others out here....the subs put you on the 'pay no mind' list when a bigger more consistent client calls. That's the aggravation I've been contending with.....

I'll give the GC piece some consideration.

Thanks!

You will probably have better luck if you pick your top contenders for the project and let them know.

Other wise it might sound more like a check bid and who has time for that. Remember for a lot of these guys that bid comes at the cost of not working on their regular job.

I know my guy is still heated about the couple grand he spent on a 6 figure job that he thought he was the guy for and it turns out he was just a check bid. (guy hired a low baller who does not do that level of work)

You aren't coming across as a serious contender to actually give them some business. Either you aren't asking for bids correctly (the previously mentioned scope of work bid document) or you are coming across as a cheapskate who only cares about the lowball price with no interest in the quality that the (lack of) dollars would be purchasing. Good contractors fire customers like that before they ever get to the bid process.

And, you're not repeat business. Even if you had the right approach and were willing to pay market rate, you can't get any leverage over the guy that hires them a dozen times through the year.

Ad that is all assuming that you're doing your due diligence on the front end. Are these guys you've approached licensed and insured? Have you gotten reccommendations for them from other good trades, or family and friends with the same quality discernment? How have you sourced these contractors? Are they hacks standing around in a hardware store parking lot?

If you're only dealing with above board guys, that lessens the chances of getting the non responsive response. They may be too busy to get back to you in a timely matter, but they will at least tell you that on the front end. My neighbor, who does zero advertising, is booked until March right now, and is turning away business. People are willing to wait for him to get to him.

Or they could just be flaky a-holes.

Saintpfla said "Overall, I'm pretty close to pulling the trigger on this project"

That says it all and they know it too. Why waste time on something that may not happen. Especially when you want line bids. They are politely telling you to go away.

Saintpfla said "..don't feel like I'm giving an impression that I'm just window shopping.

You are if your waiting to see the prices before proceeding.

I don't work for people that ask for line bids, period.

Good luck

"Or they could just be flaky a-holes."

True. But why would the OP's screening process not weed those guys out before even asking for bids from them? If you're dealing with a lot of flakes, part of the problem is you're approaching a lot of flakes, that maybe shouldn't be approached in the first place. So, why is that?

I think the acting as your own GC is probably the biggest issue. But I do feel like you are being a bit piled on here.

I have an electrician. He is well regarded in the area and was recommended by several people. He does work to code and always pulls permits when needed. He is a nice guy. He is also super busy and terrible about getting back to me. I hire him for lots of small jobs that don't need a GC--ie, move chandelier two feet over and put in dimmer switch. The problem is I have to chase him to get him to come and give me estimates (small jobs, I don't ask for a written bid). And then I have to chase him to get him to show up. He does keep appointments, which is good!

I asked our bathroom GC (a well established GC in our area who also works to code, has been in business for years, and came highly recommended) if he could recommend a more responsive electrician. He laughed and said he wished he could. His guy is barely any more responsive to him so he can't recommend the guy to a homeowner. And he has tried to find different electrician sub options and had the same problem with all of them.

So you could be doing everything right and still have problems.

And I completely understand needing to know costs before being able to proceed with a project. We have a set amount budgeted for our kitchen and if our GC comes in over it on his bid, we will talk to him about how to come back into budget . If we can't, we won't proceed. So you could say we are "nearly ready to pull the trigger."

Have you tried Angie's List? I noticed that if you mention that you found their name on Angie's List, the ones who have A ratings get very protective of their ratings and most of the time try to do the right thing. You might have to get long line because some of these guys are quite in demand but it's most likely going to be worth it.

if you are redoing your kitchen, a lot of places near me design the layout, sell the cabinets and counters and have subs for plumbing electrical that they work with. some places even do drywall type things.
i went with a kd that owned the shop and her husband/co owner headed the install crew. they had a plumber they work with and scheduled him to do both a temp sink and the real sink. they had a granite guy they worked with who i did not use as i was very picky with the granite and wanted to be there for template and their guy was 2 1/2 hrs away so i found my own fabricator.
look around and see if you have a kitchen place that will do it all or at least has a list of subs they use. imo the cabinets and finding a kd you click with is the most important piece anyway.

How about a subcontractor's perspective? I disagree with the comments that a Homeowner will always come in behind a GC when it comes to subcontractors.

We do work for both homeowners and GCs and anyone who is paying us is on an equal playing field. A homeowner is a paying customer and while we might not collect as much from ONE homeowner as we would from ONE general contractor, the amount we collect from ALL homeowners far surpasses the amount we collect from any one general contractor. And sometimes the amount we get from ONE Homeowner does indeed rival the amount we get from ONE general contractor! So why would we give the Homeowners less respect than we give the GCs?

Homeowners aren't repeat customers? Since when? Homeowners are our bread and butter, and when they contract with us directly, we treat them with due respect. Any one of our customers who calls us with an emergency is going to get an ASAP response, regardless of whether or not they are a Homeowner or a GC. We are not going to break a commitment to a Homeowner just because a GC says "jump." Of course we are going to fit our regular GCs into the schedule as quickly as possible, but not at the expense of a Homeowner who is already paying us to be on their job! Our business relies on referrals and repeat customers, and if we treated our customers poorly, we'd be out of business. And I'm pretty sure we aren't the only ones who do business this way.

Oh, and we are happy to provide potential customers with written proposals and prices, too! Imagine that.

(Edited for punctuation)

This post was edited by jellytoast on Fri, Oct 31, 14 at 11:33

If you're dealing with a lot of flakes, part of the problem is you're approaching a lot of flakes, that maybe shouldn't be approached in the first place. So, why is that?

Because most contractors are flakes.

Friend of mine used to work for a tech start up. It provided a little bit of office support for contractors, and let them see and schedule appointments on a phone app. Went out of business. For one thing, no matter how many times it was explained to them, contractors could not understand why there was any problem at all waiting three full weeks before responding to a telephone inquiry by a homeowner whose project they had already solicited for business. Meaning, the homeowner went to a website, describe the project, got three emails from three different contractors requesting to bid on the project, called one of them, and never heard back for almost a month.The contractors are all mystified how this could possibly be a problem.

That's just an illustration, not a proof point. I have worked with a lot of contractors. The only ones who regularly respond to phone calls or emails and show up on time for their appointments are large, expensive companies. The individuals? Forget it.

Oh, please.

I work with a mix of individuals and larger companies- ALL show up and do fine work. If not they are bumped off the list.
I usually try to fit the contractor to the client/project/and budget. I also arrange the first bids.

The only thing with individuals is that they can be a little more subject to "life" or delays on a previous job. A bigger outfit can send in someone else but most of the individuals I work with have a second if needed (in some cases I like the second better :)

Jellytoast there is a difference in asking for a price and asking for a price for a budget or so you can see if you can afford to do the job. It is how you (homeowner) approach it. When you are perceived as a penny pinching, number crunching tire kicker you are not going to get much out of many people.

I agree that I don't treat anybody differently regardless of being a homeowner or GC or the like. I treat emergencies the same regardless of who calls. It depends on what stage of the job I am at whether I can help or not. Most people understand if you have to leave for a short time because they would like the same treatment if it was them calling.

And I resent being called just a flake, I am proud to be frosted, a frosted flake.

SCG

Trebeuchet,
Usually I love your posts but today I don't understand it at all.

You never give an estimate?

How do people know how much they might owe you on a job?

Is the idea that you assess their current surroundings and decide whether or not they're going to be a Taco Bell customer?

The way I read your logic is that as the owner of a less than fabulous house I can't hire a contractor to make the house better because the contractor will look at the house and decide that the house is a 1948 valley box...and it needs to stay that way and the contractor assists me in understanding that by either not provided me with a quote at all or not providing me with a quote that is in the real world. i.e.,$30,000 for a job that will only take one man two days to do or two men only one day to do.

Kitchens, which are the subject of this forum are a really big racket in my area. Most, but not all, contractors in my area sell "custom" kitchen cabinets but when you try to actually customize a feature you're told that they can't do it....Why? Because they are nearly all using the same Chinese cabinet importer in the San Gabriel Valley. I can't actually get a contractor to quote custom (radial) cabinets which is why I am unwilling to pay a lump sum for a "kitchen job" where I am required by the contractor to buy the "custom" cabinets he is willing to provide. The quote Is usually around $20,000 for these "custom" cabinets (cabinets only, installation is not included in the price) which the contractor then orders from this facility and which probably cost in the range of $3,500 (I know, I have been there and priced them out myself). If the contractor actually paid for the two end cabinets that need to be customized that would eat into his $16,500 profit.

For me, I have become my own general contractor, not out of any desire to be so, but because I cannot justify paying for Taco Bell work at absolutely premium prices.

" ... there is a difference in asking for a price and asking for a price for a budget or so you can see if you can afford to do the job."

Frankly, I don't care what their reason is for asking for a price. As far as I am concerned, it is in my best interest to provide a customer with our best price, and with as detailed a proposal as possible so that they know exactly what it is they are getting for that price. I like to give people what I would like to get if I were looking for a contractor.

In my area, it is still a common practice to get competing bids. People want to know if your price is in line with other contractors, and we don't have any problem whatsoever in putting our price out there for their review. If they are bargain hunting and find a cheaper bid that they want to go with, that is fine by me. We don't need to get every job. But we still provide written proposals with prices and consider that a part of doing business.

"Trebeuchet,
Usually I love your posts but today I don't understand it at all.
"You never give an estimate?

How do people know how much they might owe you on a job?

Is the idea that you assess their current surroundings and decide whether or not they're going to be a Taco Bell customer?"

practigal:

Of course I make proposals, but I only make them to potential customers who have invested time in confirming my reputation. If I believe they value that reputation, they will earn enough of my time to get a proposal. If they are only interested in a number to compare me to "competitors", they'll get nothing.

I'll remodel a dump, the shape of the project matters not, however, the shape of the customer, financially and mentally, matters a great deal.

"Because most contractors are flakes."

marcolo:

Can you substantiate your sweeping generalization?

Most small contractors ARE flakes. It is a bad system because their customers are flakes, too.

If somebody is looking for a quote on a kitchen in Southern California that is getting $20K worth of cabinets, you are going to run into a huge pile of flakes. If the customer is asking for lots of quotes, they are going to have to make a big profit on cabinets to make up for all the time they lose.

Hopefully, you can find someone like Trebruchet that seems to do good work, cares about his reputation, and prequalifies his customers.

I've gone past that and mainly deal with existing customers. I accept a new customer very rarely and only one that was prequalified by my existing customer.

Hahaha ... seems like the contractor pool is full of flakes and idiots who can't put together a simple quote because they are incapable of "office work" and can't call you back because their skill set does not include "time management." This is great news for those who do know how to run a business!

And customers are flakes now, too, because they want to compare bids or want to know if they can afford to do a project? How nice for those of you who don't have to deal with such distasteful things as the budgets and money concerns of your customers.

Amusingly, I sat here waiting all day waiting while two separate contractors were hours late for their appointments.

Thank you, jellytoast. Everything you say is spot on. I don't have the time or patience to think about this thread. You are saying it all for me, a homeowner/GC. Thank you! Do you work in Western Washington, by any chance? I have friends who will be building soon - will be looking for a fair GC. You sound like one of the good guys...

"Amusingly, I sat here waiting all day waiting while two separate contractors were hours late for their appointments."

You should have called one of those "large, expensive companies"!

"You are if your waiting to see the prices before proceeding."

I disagree with the above statement and feel that this type of attitude can lead to problems on both sides of the equation. I would not expect my clients to proceed without having an idea of the price for the scope of work requested. Nor would I choose to enter in to an agreement in which a client and myself had not agreed upon a base price. There are numerous reasons for this from both perspectives. Price is a key ingredient for contractors and clients when both parties are deciding if they are right for one another.

This post was edited by SaltLife631 on Sat, Nov 1, 14 at 8:47

It is a bad system because in California if you the customer agree to arbitrate the matter with the contractor the arbitration is not recorded anywhere. Thousands of disputes every year are not reported to the Contractors State License Board or reported anywhere else because they are not run through the public court system. Some of these contractors have had multiple actions against them and have left behind multiple licenses under different names in different companies as they declared bankruptcy one after the other and the State Licensing Board does absolutely nothing. Nearly every contractor in California insists on arbitration. Inability to find information about these past actions makes it almost impossible for the customer to find out the true reputation of some of these jokers.

I am troubled by calling them "flakes," as this implies there's no real damage. But some of these contractors cause a lot of damage and seem to do so quite deliberately.

Again from the other side, I get customer reviews as a homeadvisor contractor. I have a 4.63 rating out of a possible 5 with over 200 reviews.

The other day I replaced a vanity sink. Showed up on time, did a perfect job with no mess, charged exactly what I said I would before I started, and was given a 3.

I cut a Corian countertop down to accommodate a new refrigerator. Again, showed up on time, used my state-of-the-art dust collection to keep an otherwise very messy job contained, perfection again and another 3.

I'm not complaining. I deserved those threes because I was unable to sort unpleaseable tire kickers from the customers I want. Contractors who fail to qualify prospects and pass out proposals willy-nilly will be killed by these types on the internet.

And while I realize it's logically irrelevant, the second lady had to move her $40,000.00 sports car to let my van out of her driveway.

I hesitate to interrupt the Tiny Violin Quartet, but to get back to the original point:

The OP was advised to rethink her approach, and figure out whether she was doing something to provoke all these flaky responses. That is very good advice, because her own behavior is the only thing she can control.

However, I think people got a little too insistent that the fault must be hers. 'Taint necessarily so. The professionals on this forum are terrific at what they do. Are they representative of their entire professions? Not according to thousands and thousands of Angie's list complaints, Better Business Bureau filings, lawsuits, standup comedy acts, sitcom tropes, Yelp reviews, whiny bar patrons and the first-hand experience of millions of homeowners.

Look, most contractors are very small business people. And most small business people are terrible at business, no matter what they do. That's why most of them don't last very long. They may understand plumbing, or dry cleaning, or taco making, but they don't understand marketing, accounting, human capital, project management, or any of the zillion other skills it takes to run a successful business. Some pick it up; many don't.

I think what's happening to stpfla is simply that many contractors are very busy now. A good business person knows that the sun doesn't always shine. But a bad business person forgets. They think they can blow off phone calls and emails, and still continue to enjoy a good reputation and a full dance card come next spring. They'll find out too late if they are wrong.

Trebruchet had a valid point, I think, about "unpleasable tire kickers". My DH recommended our GC to some friends of ours. I wish he hadn't because that husband is an "unpleasable tire kicker". They are using him for the job without getting any other quotes and relying on us for the recommendation. Within 3 meetings the firms KD refused to deal with him anymore. I am afraid to call either party to see how it's going.

I don't think the fault is hers but there are prospective clients out there who are happy with bids/quotes written on the back of a napkin and who don't require a line-by-line `quote. There are people out there who are happy with an open-ended hourly rate rather than a quote that will give the number of hours required for the job and an actual quote for said job. I suspect that small contractors will go with the former in both instances rather than the latter.

Her expectations are what clients should expect but you need to educate yourself and many can't be bothered.

"Contractors who ... pass out proposals willy-nilly will be killed by these types on the internet."

Couldn't agree more that it is a bad practice to give a proposal to anyone and everyone, or to accept work from anyone and everyone. Ignoring the signs of a potential bad match between contractor and client will likely bring you at least some amount of misery. Some jobs aren't worth the trouble at any price. The "flakiness" comes about when contractors don't have the decency to just tell people, "I'm too busy, I don't want to do this job," etc.

Marcolo, while I don't necessarily agree with your assessment of "most" contractors (especially since you have not had actual dealings with "most" contractors, but only "some"), I can't disagree that your assessment of contractors in general is shared by many. In fact, I have personally met more than a few that I would place firmly in the flake category and I have seen enough shoddy workmanship to figure that contractors probably didn't get this reputation by accident.

But to tell people that individual contractors are all flakes and the only way they can get a decent contractor is to call a "big, expensive company" is really doing them a disservice. Poor products, poor service, poor quality ... I've found these things everywhere and at every turn, they certainly are not limited to small business contractors! And I've seen enough complaints on GW alone to know that calling a big, expensive company is not a guarantee that they will deliver a quality product. Sure they might have someone on hand to send out immediately to look at your job, and they might have someone in the office to answer your call on the first ring, but that doesn't mean that the guy they send out to work on your home is going to be any good.

There are ways to hedge your bets when it comes to hiring a contractor, but calling the same "flakes" again and again and waiting for them to call you back isn't a good start. There is no "trick" to getting your contractor to respond. The trick is to cross that contractor off your list when he doesn't.

" ... there are prospective clients out there who are happy with bids/quotes written on the back of a napkin and who don't require a line-by-line `quote. There are people out there who are happy with an open-ended hourly rate rather than a quote that will give the number of hours required for the job and an actual quote for said job. I suspect that small contractors will go with the former in both instances rather than the latter."

A professional business person will want a contract that fully spells out what can be expected by both parties in regards to work done and monies exchanged. A customer should want the same.

"But to tell people that individual contractors are all flakes and the only way they can get a decent contractor is to call a "big, expensive company" is really doing them a disservice."

I don't waste my time with people who can't read.

Jellytoast, in some states (like mine) that napkin is inadmissible in court. A home renovation contract is required to have specific elements.

"I have worked with a lot of contractors. The only ones who regularly respond to phone calls or emails and show up on time for their appointments are large, expensive companies. The individuals? Forget it."

Did I misunderstand?

"who regularly respond to phone calls or emails and show up on time for their appointments"

"decent contractor"

Are you kidding me?

Enough.

"Enough."

Thank you.

I had a really hard time getting a GC to call me back. I had a healthy budget (cash), I had referrals from people in the industry, I had architect drawings, I had a detailed scope of work, I'm a pretty easy going person and tried to give off the non-micromanage vibe, and I could not get someone in my door to save my life. Finally had to go with the guy who did my bathroom and I have a feeling he only did it because he's also a close personal friend.

I'm sure there are lots of very professional contractors out here who return phone calls from strangers but it hasn't been the norm from what I've run across. I treasure my guy because he IS reliable and will do just about anything not to piss him off. As for everyone else it just makes me wonder how the heck they stay in business.

Was over at a friend's house last night listening to their high end reno horror stories. Their carp showed up 2h a day max and tried to bill them for eight. Their tile guy (best in the city with prices to match) showed up three weeks late. The friend's dad is a prominent builder and told them he'd GC the reno but they're getting what they paid for out of him.

All of my friends in the biz have their horror stories (developers about builders/gcs, gcs about subs, subs about everybody else). I love listening to them but it sounds like quite a frustrating industry on balance.

Dear robotropolis your situation is exactly the same as mine. It is strange to think that "cash is NOT king". Although I had the added insult of one GC who was willing to consider the project...if my husband was present. He did not believe that I was unmarried at the time...and so refused to consider it calling me a liar...real honest to gosh name calling...

practigal: That's hard to even comment on. What part of the country are you in? Didn't believe you were unmarried? Because you're obviously a good catch? And lying about it? I have no words. Although, an unmarried female friend of mine was on the phone with Costco discussing a granite counter and the guy on the other end asked her if there was a "Mister" in the house.

After reading this thread (and many others), I consider myself very fortunate. I had three GC referrals from trusted friends for a bathroom remodel. All three made and kept appointments to come to my house. All three submitted written estimates with a bottom line. I didn't give any budget figure ahead of time. I needed to follow up and ask questions of each of them so that I could better compare their quotes. I went with the highest bid, but one I felt was all-inclusive; plus a more professional vibe. The guy was a prince and the work was done without tears or drama.

I had a hard time finding a GC too, although I didn't have trouble getting them to come out. I live in a neighborhood where older houses are routinely torn down and remodels are all of the granite-stainless-dovetail variety, so I was already outside the box for wanting to leave the walls up and not use granite. Wanting to use Ikea cabinets didn't help me, GC-wise (I think it screams "cheap homeowner"). I had already decided on them partly because of budget, sure, but also because I really wanted frameless Euro-style cabs with good soft-close slides, and those were the only ones I could find locally. Of course it's fine for GC's to want to work only with a specific cabinet manufacturer, and I appreciated it when they told me so straight out; but these are the things I heard from other GC's who came to the house:

1. Ikea cabinets are junk. I got this from most all of them except for the one who had actually used an Ikea kitchen.

2. I was crazy for expecting the electrical work to cost more than the countertops. This was after I explained that I had already priced out my favorite butcherblock countertops at $500 and that our 1949 house would need a total kitchen rewiring.

3. Instead of using the layout I'd decided on, I should take out a major load-bearing wall that included a fireplace.

4. Instead of using the layout I'd decided on, I should expand the kitchen onto the back porch, which would have involved taking down two walls that were originally the outside walls (and a corner) of the house. Never mind that the back porch, which was tacked onto the house by another homeowner decades ago, has a sloping floor and 10 windows that are all lower than countertop height.

5. There wasn't really anything wrong with the existing 1980's kitchen. (I heard this from my husband too, lol. It looked OK as long as you didn't need to cook.)

6. We don't generally work on jobs under $50K. -- This was actually my favorite GC of the lot, and I don't know how we didn't figure this out on the phone before he came to the house. Maybe he had a scheduler taking his calls. Anyway, he understood exactly what I wanted to do, and he was courteous and professional. I didn't keep him long so he could move on to a real job, but if we had been planning a bigger remodel, I would have been happy to hire him. And no, I did not try to talk him into doing a remodel for half his usual cost.

So I ended up GC'ing it myself, with the help of some wonderful subs who were prompt and also courteous and professional. The electrician stories in this thread make me smile. I finally got a quote from ours after I saw him having lunch in the same restaurant where I was and went over to his table to ask him how much longer he thought it'd be. Poor fellow, talk about a deer-in-the-headlights look. :) I had already seen the great reviews he'd gotten from other women on my online mom's board, and I have partly paid him back by recommending him many times myself. (Note to subs: a lot of the time, the women of the family are the ones deciding who to hire.)

This post was edited by northcarolina on Sun, Nov 2, 14 at 10:29

practigal - I had forgotten about that. GC's and others who told me to have my husband call them for the quote. Uh NO! For all house projects and landscaping, unless you are prepared to deal with me you won't be getting the job. My DH isn't the least bit interested in taking these projects on.

"(Note to subs: a lot of the time, the women of the family are the ones deciding who to hire.)"

Not only that, they are excellent sale closers. If she is sold, I shutup. She'll get him on board, guaranteed.

Although I had the added insult of one GC who was willing to consider the project...if my husband was present. He did not believe that I was unmarried at the time...and so refused to consider it calling me a liar...real honest to gosh name calling... - Practigal

Oh boy, this reminded me of the time last fall when I called an exterminator to check out a possible termite infestation of our mudroom. I called one of the big national firms and they said an inspector would call me later that day when he was on the way. The guy called, I explained that DH and I had found dead what-looked-like-ants-with-wings and other evidence of some kind of bug problem. The guy asked if my husband was at home now, and I said no. Then he went into all this "well, there are a number of treatments and costs depending on what I find, will you be making the decision on treatment?" I said yes, I owned the house. "Well, your husband needs to be there so I can explain everything." I said I was perfectly capable of writing down the information and presenting it to him later. The guy agrees reluctantly to come out, and as he's hanging up the phone he mutters "waste of time." His supervisor got a blistering phone call from me and I got all sorts of apologies from his office. And this is Brooklyn, NY, fall of 2013. Caveman.

Back on topic: my experience with contractors, over two large jobs now, is that our no-show issues arose during the job and not while soliciting quotes. We were uber-prepared with full plans, architect on board, reasonable-for-the-job budget and a lot of freedom for the contractor to set the timeline. We also had seen prior work and talked to other customers so could come in with "so-and-so on Main Street recommended you and we saw the work you did there."

Okay....wow.

It took me a few days to digest some of these comments. Some were helpful and even came to my defense (Thank You!...).... and some not so much. But, all feedback is welcome.

This was no means to be a argument of crappy contractors vs. crappy clients.

In the real world, BOTH exist.

I'm trying to make an extremely EXPENSIVE decision on a home improvement project and am simply trying to get some advice -- I thought that's what this forum was for.

A few things....

I wouldn't buy a car --without a quote.
I wouldn't accept a job offer - without reviewing the offer terms.
I wouldn't buy a cell phone and contract - without reviewing the cost.
I wouldn't book a hotel room -- without a rate quote.

This absurd idea that "I'm shopping around", therefore no quote should be provided is so far off the mark. I've met with construction companies in the past for other projects - guess what? They all provided a written quote.

I would not consign work without one. That's foolish.

Yes - I AM shopping - for the best "deal" as in "total package": as in professional counsel, professional delivery, best product for my budget, warranty AND factoring the price of the individual job.

If I was only factoring cost - I would simply buy some used cabinets off of Craigslist and call it a day.

I am willing to pay more for a quality product and service. I am hardly a low-baller in that respect.

Perhaps I didn't communicate the depth of the process in my post and the steps I've taken, however, for brevity, I assumed my question would be enough rather than a line item of my process.

NorthCarolina: your remodel project sounds almost identical to mine. Older home....no one wants to do it "my" way and every proposal includes knocking down a load bearing wall.

I'm now just taking out a portion of a wall to house the refrigerator in a small closet as a recessed solution. Although not excited about knocking down an entire wall to do this. I have few options due to the size/shape of my kitchen.

Btw...the phrase "pulling the trigger" means "to move forward"....sorry for any confusion on that.

"no one wants to do it "my" way"

saintptfl:

Count me as a contractor in that group. All of my projects will be done my way. Yes, it's your home, and yes, you're writing the checks, but I've got plenty of opportunities and only one reputation.

If we can come to a mutually satisfactory vision and contract, great. I will be proud to have my name on your project or I won't do it.

Despite my best written efforts, I'm not always able to pull this off. I recently bailed another sub out of big trouble at the new local mall where a store had a facade in Corian Nocturn (black), the most difficult solid surface color, which was horrible. I told them I needed 3 nights to get an acceptable matte finish, but the danged mall approved my work after the first night. My boss, the GC, was delighted and pulled my plug. So I'm stuck with a store front that looks much better than it did, doesn't look the way I'd like, but it's got my name on it now.

Before. Note the center top seam which isn't supposed to be there.

After.

I see! I think that looks very nice!

Btw - when I said "my way"....it's a bit of sarcasm....I am by no means a construction expert.

I was hoping to remodel without wall removal etc....but, that is not at all possible.....which is fine.

On the cost piece -- as an example -- the cabinet maker referred a carpenter to do the build out for the refrigerator recess and new header...etc. An estimate cost of $600.

Alarm bells went off for me....that price seems scary low for such an important project.

I met with a GC this morning (I've used him for the floor joist issue I encountered) who has now pointed out a HUGE design flaw with my kitchen plan.

Ugh.

The cabinet guy did the kitchen design to allow for fridge to recess into the wall.

The GC has determined that the space is too small even with shifting the door way as far as it will go.

Awesome.

saintpfl:

If you want to see my work in person, head south on 1-75 for about an hour or so and get off at University Blvd. Go into the new mall, 2nd floor, J.Crew store.