Here is our GC's. He wins the drawing award, anyway. :-)

I suppose another option would be to not move the window quite so far and only have the strip next to the fridge be on the side of the wall where we really need it. Not sure which would look better...?

I was wondering why you needed to 6" strip on the right side of the fridge as well. But my question is are you sure you only need 6" on the left? I have a french door fridge and I thought the door clearance on either side was closer to 1 foot in order to get the doors fully open.

My thought was that you could loose the 6" strip on the right, and make a 1foot wide pullout on the left of your fridge. It would be narrow but it could be handy even as something like a broom closet.

One thing I know for sure is you do not want a fridge door that you can not open completely. It will annoy you.

In your contractors picture does he have the fridge abutting the wall? I guess if the fridge door hinge is on the right that would be ok, but I think you'd prefer to have the door hinged on the left for easier access during food prep.

Is your gc willing to make that extra trip to the grocery store for you every week, because you don't have room to stock up on perishables with a 33" fridge?

In your plan, what's the story with the narrow pullout between sink and range? Why don't you just make wider drawers?

In both plans, the drawers next to the fridge are pretty narrow (in his especially). I had a 12" drawer stack in my old kitchen, and it was next to worthless.

With no uppers, have you considered making the base cabs 27" or 30" deep, with full extension drawers? You'd gain a lot of counter and storage that way.

Can you draw us an overhead view with dimensions, showing how the kitchen relates to the rest of the house? Maybe there's a Plan C that would work even better.

Regardless of which one looks better now, I wouldn't plan this so someone (you or someone else) could put in a 48" built-in fridge in the future. I've never heard of someone building in a built-in fridge after the fact -- if there's a 48" built-in fridge in that kitchen's future, it's in the next complete remodel.

Thank you both for responding! Yes I do think that the 1 foot pull out probably makes more sense. Thank you for suggesting it!
I am considering the deeper base cabinets. The suggestion for the wider drawers is good as well. I was thinking I would use that tall one for cookie sheets and cutting boards, but I suppose I could also keep them in a nice wide drawers as well.
I will provide an overhead view soon. Thank you!

SJhockeyfan I didn't see your response when I was posting my last one. That is a good point about the built-in. However, I am inclined to think that I might need that amount of space to make sure my doors open properly anyway (?)
I do know one person who added a built-in fridge after the fact, but it was a gift :-)

Perhaps I should consider making a refrigerator look unfitted?

Cookie sheets and cutting boards are much easier to access if they are standing vertically. I would move the vertical storage cabinet to the left or right and widen it, and then combine the two sets of drawers into one set of bigger drawers. (I'm not concerned with symmetry - balance yes, but not symmetry)

Buy your GC a nice case of beer/favourite wine and move the window. It worked for us.

How about putting your cookie sheets,etc above the *36"* fridge and make wider drawers.

12" of fill to open fridge doors? There is something wrong there. If you need 6" of fill have him make a pull-out broom closet. When I asked for that, it sent my GC's cabinet maker into a tailspin. That was serious fun. He had never made one before.

Like beanpiles says, my french door fridge requires 1 ft. of clearance to open the doors fully, but you only need that on the wall side. Not opening the door fully could also interfer with removing shelves for cleaning, and for opening the veggie bins. I would not settle for not being able to open the doors fully.

There are only two people in my house and I can't imagine only having a 32 inch fridge. I can barely fit even a few days worth of fresh veggies in the bins of my 36 inch FD, and the freezer doesn't hold a great deal either.

Moving the window may be a small PITA for your contractor now, but living with the consequences of leaving it as is may be a bigger PITA for you in the long run. I'd pin him down on the cost so you can make an informed decision based on actual costs, not estimates of "a million dollars."

BTW, I prefer my DW to the right of my sink as I wash/rinse dishes in that direction, and it is closer to where I store my dishes and silverware.

There are only two people in my house and I can't imagine only having a 32 inch fridge. I can barely fit even a few days worth of fresh veggies in the bins of my 36 inch FD, and the freezer doesn't hold a great deal either.

That's so personal - we are 3 people with a 30" fridge, and it's plenty big for us. Of course, we live in the city, and pass by Safeway on the way home from work.

Refrigerator size does seem to be very personal. We had an 11 cubic foot, 24 inch wide, LG refrigerator in our first kitchen and it was more than big enough for three of us. I currently have a 30 incher and it's more than big enough for our family of four. No extra refrigerator or freezer of any kind. And three of us eat nearly all of our meals at home or from packed lunches (dh eats lunch out most days and dinner at home about half the time). I can't imagine what I would do with a bigger one--well, actually I can, I'd grow nasty science experiments in the back because I wouldn't be forced to clear it out! Obviously other people have different shopping/eating habits.

I would definitely pin the contractor down on price to move the window. It's not going to be any cheaper to move it later so I think you should get what you want now.

Yours! It looks better and allows you to change your fridge over time. If you can afford the million bucks (LOL) I'd do it :)

I dislike mega fridges and actually prefer fridges that force you to shop more often and eat fresher foods, which I think should be a priority.

But id still vote for the 36". I think it's a good size but not oversized for the space, and i like it proportionally with the line up. Tell the GC to suck it up.

"That's so personal [fridge size]- we are 3 people with a 30" fridge, and it's plenty big for us. Of course, we live in the city, and pass by Safeway on the way home from work."

Yes, of course that's true. But since switching to a 36 inch counter depth, I've noticed that I run out of room quickly, and I don't do a big weekly shopping. I tend to shop every day or every other day, but I do store lots of drinks (milks, sodas, protein drinks, OJ, etc.) and they take up a lot of real estate. Thought it was worth mentioning since I don't believe the size of your fridge should be dictated by someone who doesn't live in the house or do the shopping (the contractor) unless it is the ONLY size that will fit.

I vote for moving the window. In your GC's layout, is there enough room for whatever window trim you wanted (or maybe you are just planning drywall returns)? I think his proposed floating shelves by the range hood are too small (18") to be useful and just look busy.

I also agree with the other folks who are suggesting that your consolidate the pull out space and drawer space. Suggest you don't worry about symmetry in the lowers since that view will be blocked by your planned large island.

I still say that because your island is going to be so big, you should keep its placement in mind when you are locating your window. Maybe cut out a piece of paper to represent your island and superimpose it on your sketch. Just to be sure :-)

Good luck!

Thank you all!

GC is pinning down his sub on the cost to move the window. Based on another change we made, I am anticipating it to be under $1K, not a million. :-)

We are a family of seven, so the 36" makes more sense for us. My original plan was to have a 32" "cooking fridge" and a smaller "snack fridge" in the pantry for the kids. I may still have a snack fridge, but even so I think that being architecturally required to have a 32" fridge is short sighted.

I agree that I probably don't need to worry about the symmetry of the lower cabinets.

Oaktown, if I center the window I can center everything- woo hoo!

So folks, do you vote for the 36" fridge with the 1' pullout to the left? Or is there another fridge set-up I should be considering?

Floorplan to follow.
Thanks!

Here is the section of the floor plan with the kitchen. Some changes to bear in mind:

1.) Obviously nothing on the working wall is going where the architect had them.

2.) There is no entry from the garage to the pantry anymore, and the divider walls in the pantry are gone. We may put a coffee station in there.

3.) We are going to center the island and make it deeper. It will also have a prep sink.

4.) The foyer walls will be symmetrical and the cutout on the kitchen side will likely be omitted.

Thanks!

" ... 12" of fill to open fridge doors? There is something wrong there."

If next to a wall, I would need 12 inches of space to open the door fully and have it stay open by itself (measured on a KA FD, counterdepth). The shelves that are located on the doors also stick out quite a bit, so if the fridge door was only opened partially, moving the shelves and bins that are located inside the fridge in and out would be problematic.

In my pre-remodel kitchen, my SxS fridge was about six inches away from a wall. I could not remove the shelves for cleaning unless I first pulled the fridge forward enough so that the door opened into the doorway leading to the garage. It was a pain, but I was lucky there was a doorway right there otherwise it would have been even more inconvenient.

This post was edited by jellytoast on Fri, Oct 24, 14 at 17:16

I gather you do not know what type/brand of fridge you're getting? My current built-in does not require any clearance to open the door to 90 degrees and only a couple of inches to open it 105 degrees (drawers can be removed at 90 degrees). Each fridge is different, but if you either bring the fridge out, or shorten the wall next to the fridge (the door to the pantry), you'll have plenty of room for door swing. I've attached a picture of the KA FD in my old house which shows what I mean - the wall to the right is flush with the trim around the fridge. The door on this fridge opened wide enough to remove the drawers.

Thanks sjhockeyfan. That was a lovely kitchen!

To clarify, the refrigerator is going to be on the wall by the foyer, not the pantry. Understandable that you would think so, given the floor plan. One would have to read the whole thread to know that none of the appliance are going to be where they are marked. Also, the wall can't be flush with the fridge trim it extends forward 10 feet or so to create the foyer. :-) Thanks!

Our french door fridge has about 9" of clearance on one side. The door opens just fine and all the drawers and shelves pull out without any issue.

Kiwigem - thanks for the explanation of the wall on the right side of your fridge - that explains the need for the clearance.

So if you have to have a clearance anyway, can you put something in that spot? A full height pull-out of some sort?

My set-up is the same as sjhockeyfan hence my confusion. Sorry.

I was looking for something else and saw this Gardenweb kitchen reveal that has a pic of a very useful looking pullout on the left side of the fridge. Scroll through all the pics and you will see that they even used that cabinet for their cutting boards and baking sheets that you needed a spot for.

Here is a link that might be useful: Narrow Pullout to Left of Fridge

Thank you that's a great link! I may do just that! Just so everyone understands, the refrigerator is now at the top of the floor plan to the left of the window if you are facing it. The range is what is by the pantry. Here is a plan I think will work. It does have the downside of requiring the fridge to stick out well beyond the counter if I get the fridge I really want, though. I will have the fridge boxed in and it will just be a jog in the cabinetry. Do you think I have room based on the floor plan? Think I can get away with making the counters a little deeper, or will they be too close to the pantry door?

Now it looks like you have two stacks of narrow drawers.

In my smaller kitchen, I figured out in advance where things would go, and let that determine the layout. For example, I wanted potholders, utensils, pots and pans, and spices near the stove; a place for cookie sheets; a place for small appliances; drawers for towels, bags and wraps.

In your kitchen, with no uppers, the drawers near the range are doubly important.

~If your bring your counters out further, you will also be bringing your stove out further which, if someone is standing in front of it, will also be standing in front of the pantry entrance. Just an observation.

Have you considered a pocket door for your pantry entrance?

I like the visual balance of the wall.

For narrow drawers - a knife block (love mine in my narrow drawer), oven mitts, towels/dishcloths, plastic wrap/tin foil, the requisite junk drawer that all kitchens seem to have ;),....

How narrow are the drawers flanking the range - from experience, 12" are useless, 15" not great but functional, 18" starts to be worthwhile.

Agree with sjhockeyfan regarding the drawers. I have an 18 inch drawer stack on one side of my range. It is just big enough to allow for tin foil, plastic wrap, etc. to be stored width-wise. On the other side, I have a 12-inch door/drawer combo. Not really an ideal size, but I make use of it by storing cookie sheets on end in the drawer portion, and keep things like oven thermometer and other small cooking doo-dads in the small drawer. I had space constraints, and this set-up works well for me. I would rather have a useful size drawer stack on one side of the range, than two less-than-useful stacks on either side. That said, I do like the visual balance of your latest drawing above, especially if both of those drawer stacks are 18 inches.

Hi, everyone. Thank you for all your great input! The cabinets on either side of the range will be 18", don't know what that means for actual drawer size. I do like having drawers for potholders, trivets, rolling pins, parchment paper, etc, so I think these will be fine.

blfenton, right now our door is supposed to be a barn door, but I've already been thinking that I'm going to nix both the planned barn doors in our house and replace them with pockets. Too much real estate on the walls.

We think we have decided on the Samsung Chef Collection refrigerator. It's a beast. The depth without the doors (doors must clear cabinet in order to open) is 30". I think I can get away with increasing the cabinet depth to 27, but not 30. We have casement windows, so I shouldn't have too much trouble opening them.

beanpiele, I've figured out what I will use the narrow cabinet next to the fridge for ; cookbooks, cookie sheets,and cutting boards. Perfect!

Here is a slightly modified wall plan. I've changed the cabinets over the refrigerator and squared off the hood. Not sure how I feel about the wall of subway tile. It might feel a little oppressive, but I don't know where to end it? I'm tempted not to have a backsplash at all...

Kiwigem, just a thought ... on your drawer stack to the right of the range, did you allow enough space for a filler piece against the wall if needed? From your plans a few posts up, it looks like there is a doorway along that wall. If you pull the drawers open, is there enough room to pull them open fully without them hitting the door trim? This happened to me with my bath cabinet and I had to move the cabinet and add a filler piece against the wall in order to open the drawers. I had the same situation in my kitchen, but this time I knew better and didn't forget to allow for the filler.

I think it looks great.

I would personally want to have that drawer stack to the left of the range to be 24" so I could get my pots and pans in them. I have a drawer stack next to my range for that purpose but could only manage to make it 21 inches. It works, but just barely. But kitchens are very personal and you just need to be sure it will work for your needs.

I like that you changed the cabinet over the fridge in the second drawing. It looks less busy over there now and that wide cabinet over the fridge is very useful for vertical storage.

The wall of subway tile is definitely a cool look. I like it but agree that I'd be worried it could feel stark. You could end the backsplash under the window, draw that line all the way across the room except behind your range. Then on the wall behind your range not covered by tile you could have a piece of stainless steal that goes up to the hood. Just a thought.

Jellytoast has a good point- a filler piece like that in my cabinets is about 2.25inches.

Here is an option for where to end the tile.

[Contemporary Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/contemporary-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2103) by Seattle Kitchen & Bath Remodelers Potter Construction Inc

After you add lighting, the open shelves, and that range hood. I don't think the tile will be so stark if you do choose to tile the entire wall. This one even tiled the range hood...

[Transitional Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/transitional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2112) by Ardmore General Contractors Pinemar, Inc

Jelly toast, that is a great point regarding the trim. As of now, the door will either have no trim or very minimal, so I'm hoping it won't matter. If it does, we will perhaps have to convert that stack to a pullout or narrow cabinet. Those pullouts with the knife blocks built in are pretty cool and could work there.

Beanpiele,thanks! I was planning to have the pots and pans go in the 36" drawers one stack over. I will also have the big island behind if I need to put pans there instead.

mellyc, that second photo with all the tile is great! I could barely tell it was tiled at all, so it won't seem too overpowering. Makes me think I may want to use white grout instead of the grey I was planning on. I generally prefer tapered hoods, but I like how that square one would balance the refrigerator cabinet.

Thanks everyone for your help! I'm feeling more confident now :-)

You have a variety of spots where you can stop the tile. Under the window, half-way up the window/under the vent hood, top of the window/half-way through the vent hood. etc.

This is a decision that can be done at the end when everything is done. Keep us posted with decisions, pics and plans. I hope everything goes smoothly for you.

DANG IT!!!! I just realized a flaw in my plan. The window has to be centered from the outside, not the inside, and because there is an exterior corner on one end and an interior corner on the other end, I am 6" off.

Back to the drawing board. Shoot!

Ooh! I think I've cracked the code! What do you think of this? Two DW's, yeah, I know, but I have 5 children and can never get all our dishes into the DW. And the drawers by the range are bigger.
It didn't scan all that well. I hope you can see it!

" ... that is a great point regarding the trim. As of now, the door will either have no trim or very minimal, so I'm hoping it won't matter."

Even if it doesn't matter function-wise, IMO it looks better to have at least some filler between a cabinet and the wall, especially if the doors are full-overlay.

My thoughts on a wide drawer stack next to the range ... the things I want most right next to the range are the things I want to grab quickly while cooking ... whisks, can openers, pot holders, splatter screens, etc. I don't mind my pots and pans being located a bit farther from the range (but I still want them close by) as I am not likely to need to grab an extra pot quickly while standing at the range cooking, but I might need to grab a spatula or a whisk quickly. I think it's a matter of personal preference, though, as to what you want nearby while cooking, but something to think about. I also like to have my plastic wraps, tin foil, etc. located in the prep area where I'll be using them.

Regarding the two dishwashers on either side of the sink ... I have a dishwasher that has a handle that protrudes. I despise standing in front of it to do anything, and luckily I don't have to because I have plenty of prep space to the other side. While I like the look of your single dishwasher arrangement, I would want the kitchen that worked best for me, and if that involved two dishwashers, I would work around that requirement

jellytoast, I think you are right about the filler strip, but I think we can work that into the layout without too much trouble. My dishwashers won't have handles, so I think I should be okay, but that's a great point.

jellytoast, I think you are right about the filler strip, but I think we can work that into the layout without too much trouble. My dishwashers won't have handles, so I think I should be okay, but that's a great point.

Will you have a prep sink in the island? Most people prep between sink and stove, and a DW in the middle of that area is a big obstacle.

I don't think I've seen plans for your island - I assume all your dishes will go there. Will you have a trash pullout? I'd put that to the right of the sink.

Hi, annkh, yes I will have a prep sink, though the island hasn't been designed yet. I am planning to keep the dishes in the island. Also hoping to fit the trash and microwave drawer in there, although I could do a microwave in the pantry (8' by 8' to the right of the range) instead.
I would like to understand your thoughts about the DW being in the way. I'm afraid I will miss an important point. I never prep (that will be on the island most of the time) and load dishes at the same time. How would the DW be in the way? Thanks so much!

If you truly never open the DW during prep, it shouldn't be a problem.

In our house, we all gather in the vicinity of the kitchen before a meal (dining table is close by), and if the DW has clean dishes in it, one of the kids will put them away, while DH is cooking on the other side of the kitchen. Or he'll have dishes/pans/colanders/plastic containers that he's used or emptied in the course of making a meal, and I'll load them in the DW while he's cooking. It would be very inconvenient if the DW was in the middle of the prep area.

I just imagine that with 5 kids, you won't be the only one working in the kitchen. Or if the DW is across from the prep sink, you may not be able to open it when someone is at the sink.

Now I understand, thank you! I am the only cook, and I'm kind of iron-fisted about it. I don't like people in my way when I am cooking- stand back! Lol

What do you think of putting the main trash/ recycling pullout between the fridge and the first DW? Then I could keep the island free for dish and glassware drawers and the microwave drawer. I will probably have a small trash can beneath the prep sink as well.