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Finalizing Kitchen Design and Layout - would love input!

pip
13 years ago

I've been lurking these threads for months but this is my first post. Hello hello! We've finally selected a contractor and are in the process of finalizing the kitchen design. I'm seeking any input or suggestions that others with experience in kitchen design/layout may have - we've gone over this many times and we aren't coming up with any other design concepts that might enhance the functionality of the kitchen.

To the right of the sink is an eat-in area with a bench and storage under the bench. We will have a table built for that area.

The back area is a bar area, and the cabinet to the left of the arch will house our TV/cable box. To the left of that is obviously the pantry.

We've selected all KitchenAid appliances - the Architect series (36 in range, counterdepth fridge and DW) but have yet to decide on a hood. We are going with white painted shaker style custom cabinets and espresso colored cabinets on the back "bar" area.

Right now the back right wall is empty because we're hoping to hang artwork from a local artist, but I'm not convinced it looks right. Does it look asymmetrical to not have a cabinet there?

Another issue is that we have two very young children (a toddler and a newborn) so we need the kitchen to store two highchairs. We don't have a ton of extra space in the kitchen since we're putting an eat-in space in the corner under the two windows.

Anyway, here are the renderings - I would be so grateful for thoughts/comments/suggestions. Thanks - this forum has been so instrumental in helping us gather ideas about this remodel!

{{gwi:1957889}}

{{gwi:1957890}}

{{gwi:1957891}}

{{gwi:1957892}}

Comments (25)

  • txpepper
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Do you have an overhead layout with some dimensions you can post that will give a better idea of spatial relations?

    Pepper

  • Buehl
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I second TxPepper.

    Have you had a chance to read the "Read Me" thread? In particular, the section about asking for Layout help? It has questions to answer so we get the general "feel" for what you're striving for as well describes what information layouts should contain for us to be of more then just general/unfocused help. You do have some of the information from the questions, but a layout w/measurements would be very helpful.

    I've linked the thread below.

    Good luck!

    Here is a link that might be useful: Read Me If You're New To GW Kitchens!

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    Comments (12)
    Thanks so much for all of the ideas and input! The opening between the dining room/kitchen area from the living room we really love. This is a small house and it really opens up the area. Not to mention that there is no natural light in our dining room kitchen area so this allows the little bit we get from the front window into that area as well. It's not used as a pass through, as we have a long sideboard on the other side that we can use for serving dishes and such. Here is a picture of that side of the opening: (this was taken during a cookie decorating party we had at our house over the holidays) Moving the sofa to the other wall is an interesting idea. For some reason I never thought of it over there. I guess becuase it honestly isn't the longer wall of the 2. The room is more narrow than you might think. These pictures might give you a better idea of the space in the room. These were taken in our final walk through of the house before we got the keys. So, as you can tell we've changed a lot of the finishes. The view when you walk in the front door: (disregard the red cabinets and the floor and wall colors, all have been changed) Continuing around the room: So as you can see the far wall isn't that big. I'll have to measure but I don't even think there would be room for side tables beside the sofa if we put it on that far wall. Also, my husband and I are contemplating these chairs from craigslist: We can get them this evening for $50 for both of them, and I think that they might work in the color scheme of the front room. If not we could always slip cover them. We have no TV in this room to deal with. The tv is in our back den. Dilly_dally - you are right that there is a built in bookcase on one end of our Den, not the front living room. Here is a picture of the back den right now (obviously still in the process of decorating and moving in): Do these pictures change any ideas ya'll had? :) Or give you more ideas on how the room could be used or set up? Here are some inspiration pictures I had for the room originally: Obviously our room isn't just like the room in the picture and we want to make it our own and are limited to the furniture we already have, BUT I love the feel of the room pictured above. Thanks again!
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    Comments (23)
    I don't know how this would look, but what if you removed the soffit and the cabs on the sink wall? Switch the sink wall cabinet to the range wall--you have 23" between corner and window. That might provide more balance to that wall--there's something about it that looks off to me. I think it's all the height and bulk in the middle of the wall and the unevenly-spaced windows. Or could the stove and window be shifted down and that wall be made more symmetrical without the soffit? I'm not sure about keeping the single cabinet over the DW, but I think two shelves for mugs and coffee supplies could work. Then that corner becomes a coffee corner. How tall will the crown be on your cabinets? When I add 36" base cabs + 18" between counter and bottom of upper cabs + 48" upper cabinets, I get 102", the height of your ceilings. I think those 48" uppers aren't allowing for crown. I am concerned that all your wall cabinets will look very tall and skinny and not really hold much. I can't believe how many times I edited this post! I must need a nap! This post was edited by may_flowers on Tue, Feb 11, 14 at 20:35
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    Comments (10)
    First...with this new design you will have a lot of counterspace...so I think you can easily give up 30" for a tall oven cabinet for either a double oven setup or a MW + single wall oven. Second, lower island counters...be sure you have enough room under a lower counter for the plumbing for a sink...check with a professional on this. IIRC, there are minimum lengths for some pipes...but I'm definitely not an expert! Also, be sure you have a deep enough overhang for comfortable seating. The NKBA recommendations for seating overhang are a minimum of: 18" for table-height seating (30" high) 15" for counter-height seating (36" high) 12" for bar-height seating (42" high) If your island will be lower than 36", then I recommend an overhang of 15" to 18"...the lower the counter, the larger the overhang. Pantry cabinet...if you have a good sized walk-in pantry, then I would not get a tall pantry cabinet. They aren't the most efficient storage for pantry items b/c they're so deep. Even with roll out tray shelves things can get lost. Think about a 24" x 24" raised surface with things stacked on it...easily seeing and getting to those items in the middle (or even the back) can be iffy. I think the better idea is the tall oven cabinet. If you need to store a few pantry items in the kitchen proper, use a drawer. You might even consider a drawer for storing baking supplies if you bake often enough to take up prime storage real estate for them. Refrigerator...if your refrigerator is a counter-depth or standard-depth, you will need to be sure the doors of your refrigerator extend out past the counters on the side...that is, if you want to be able to open the doors fully! So, you can recess only up to the refrigerator carcass (box). Also, plan for a 36"W x 72"H refrigerator even if you don't have one now. Refrigerators narrower than 36" and shorter than 72" or so are become less and less common. Plan for the future since refrigerators, unfortunately, no longer outlast remodels. You will most likely need a new refrigerator 10 years or so from now, even if you're buying it new now. So, make the recessed area that size as well as build the "surround" for the refrigerator with an alcove that size. If you are not going to have any upper cabinets on the wall with the refrigerator, then consider building in the refrigerator with walls instead of finished end panels. When you have upper cabinets, I think finished end panels look better, but when the refrigerator is "stand alone", I think dry-walled walls look better...they don't make the refrigerator stand out and scream "refrigerator". However, walls are approx 4.5" wide, so you will need 9" of space for those walls. Remember, too, that counters are actually 25.5" deep, not 24"...they extend approx 1.5" past the cabinets so they cover the doors and a little bit more. This is to protect your cabinets & doors from spills...the overhang directs spills past the...
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  • scrapbookheaven
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    It looks a little strange to have what appears to be three different sized windows in the kitchen.

  • txpepper
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Pip,

    Additionally, what are your thoughts with regard to seating around the table other than the bench seating?

    Do you plan to feed your children at the eat-in area or in the dining room? If you plan to use the eat-in area, I'm thinking that high-chairs will be positioned along the open side or the open end of the table, which then poses the question...where are the parental units going to sit to do the feeding? I guess you can call it an ergonomics thing. It will be difficult for you to do the back-and-forth, up-and-down thing if you are sitting on the bench. : )

    And I concur with ScrapBook about what seems to be three different window sizes. I thought it a little odd, or is one of these where you plan to hang artwork? If yes, then you need to think about solar film on your windows to help block UV rays which will kill anything that has color.

    If the other two squares are windows, it is my inclination to have them the same height measurement. One thing to consider, again if they are windows and having kids potentially jumping around as kids tend to do, that if the windows are too low, they could go crashing into the window. You will have plenty of other times you will need to take them to the doctor - this doesn't need to add to.

    Pepper

  • lyvia
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    You might start with a small table, leaving some bench exposed, so you can sit on the bench and face the high chair early, then later get a larger table.

    It seems like your fridge is a long way from the prep action. I'm picturing a hazardous trip zone with toys and moving limbs underfoot. Is it 14 foot across? I don't see a way to get the fridge closer though, short of the ultra $$$ fridge drawers.

    Pretty good overall I say.

  • pip
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thank you for your input, everyone! I just checked the thread buehl linked, and here is some more information about our goals and needs (sorry I didn't include all of it in my original post):

    *the current kitchen has very little counter space, so our #1 goal was to increase the counter space for prepping meals. We had hoped for an island, but unfortunately the kitchen is too small for that - it'd be tight.
    *our other goal is "family/toddler friendly" - we need a space where kids can eat and play, and down the road, work on homework, etc. We also need to keep in mind not having things like open shelves within their reach.
    *the current kitchen has a laundry room with a washer/dryer and storage closet which cuts the space nearly in half, and we have moved the washer/dryer unit to our master closet and plan to tear down the wall that separates the two rooms
    *we are closing the pocket door leading to the foyer, and adding one arch, and will enlarge the opening to the dining room
    *we're not gourmet cooks, but we do cook meals for the family and occasionally entertain (holidays, birthday parties) although we have an outdoor space with a grill, fridge and prep space so that is our main entertaining space; the kitchen is more for family dinners, doing homework, etc. We tend to gather there after work and have a glass of wine while we feed the kids, so we need a hangout area.
    *The current layout has a banquet that we like and so we decided to keep the kitchen as an eat-in and move it to below the windows. We have a small table at the banquet currently (it's a lovely card table, as you can see in the photos!) I sort of agree the bench area probably isn't ideal for highchairs in terms of ergonomics, but I'm not sure how to create a space that works...

    txpepper, I've attached an overhead, but I don't have one with the dimensions (I have asked for one and hopefully can post later today).

    Scrapbookheaven, I'm not sure why the windows near the bench appear to be two different sizes in the renderings -- they're actually the same. The window above the sink is smaller. I've attached a photo below of the windows so you can see the size of the windows.

    here are some photos of the current configuration and the overhead:
    {{gwi:1957893}}
    {{gwi:1957894}}
    {{gwi:1957895}}
    {{gwi:1957896}}

  • bmorepanic
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    A few other questions?

    1. Are you replacing the windows or not? Is it just a mistake in drawing?

    2. It looks like you grew another opening or one moved and a door is located where previously there was just an opening?

    3. Would you trade storage for counters?

    4. Would you trade a multi-cook kitchen for single cook convenience?

    5. What is the overall size of the room?

    6. Can you note where the door ways and door lead to?

    I don't think you're fitting two high chairs with the banquette in the corner - mostly because of the dishwasher door needing to open and the same for cabinet to the left of the ref. The high chairs would be parked in front of the space needed to open...

  • Buehl
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I guess we should have been clearer...a 2-D layout w/measurements of the overall space as well as each wall, window, door, and the distances b/w those walls, windows, and doors would be helpful.

  • houseful
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Your before pictures are charming. I love all that natural light!

    I wouldn't plan a kitchen around highchair storage. It won't be long before they can use booster seats. In fact, your toddler may be able to use a booster seat about the same time the infact goes into the highchair. Then you'll only have to worry about one HC.

    If you end up keeping the frig in that location, would you consider moving it all the way to the right so you have all continuous counter? Same with the wall of brown cabinets. If you center the doorway and maybe shrink it a few inches, then you can have only pantry on one side and all the counter on the other side. I think you'll get more use out of continuous counterspace rather than a few small chunks.

  • chicagoans
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Most of your lowers are cabinets rather than drawers. I don't know if that's due to limitations of the design software or if that's what you're planning right now... but I'd highly recommend more drawers. They're so much easier to organize and use than cabinets, even cabinets with roll out shelves.

    I have very few cabinets for my lowers and those that I do have, if I were to do it again, I'd turn into drawers. (Even under the sink I'd put a drawer on the bottom and cabinets only where I'd have to for the piping.)

    The link gives some reasons and good organization pictures. There are other links on storing dishes in drawers... and I can picture a handy drawer with pegs for storing all your baby bottles and sippy cups upside down. When you don't need the bottles anymore, remove some or all the pegs and repurpose the drawer.

    Have fun and good luck with your planning!

    Here is a link that might be useful: drawers vs cabinets

  • User
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Kill the banquette. It doesn't work at all in the space indicated. It'd be better to have the windows go all the way across that wall with the sink shifted down to center on it. IF you shifted the range down slightly to the corner, you'd have room for a peninsula for a bit of seating there. And, a 30" range would fit the space so much better. That 36" is a bit crowded with all you have going on. Where would you store dishes in this design? The logical place would be the single small cabinet above the DW, which wouldn't work at all given the rest of the layout.

    Can any of these doors go away or be moved? It's really restricting your design and I don't see you having an eat in kitchen in the current space without doing some major reinvention of the doorways..

  • pip
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thank you all for the input. In response to bmorepanic:

    *we are keeping the windows and they'll remain the same size - just a mistake in the drawings.

    *We're moving the current pocket door which leads from the foyer to down the foyer hall to maximize counter space and to enhance the flow of the kitchen. Currently, when you walk in the front door of the house, the kitchen pocket door is immediately to your left. The dishwasher is right next to the doorway, so if you have the DW open, the entry way is blocked. Also, the foyer hallway has another doorway to our guest bath, which makes the entry quite crowded.

    *We had considered closing off the entry from the foyer and leaving only one arch on the back bar wall, but we thought having only one kitchen entry from the dining room felt odd.
    Also, the kitchen receives a ton of natural light and I want the light to flow into the living room, which is a darker.

    I'd love to hear input on that if anyone thinks two arches into the kitchen (one from foyer, one from dining room) is unnecessary. I've attached a photo of the current dining room and foyer entry (excuse the mess of junk in the dining room).

    *Another big question is to keep the door leading out from the current laundry room (see photo below). In the current plans, we have kept the door which leads to the side of the house (not really an entry we use). There is bougnavilla and a lemon tree right outside the door and we'd like to keep the opening for light, but I'm wondering if we could scrap the door to get more counter space, as houseful suggested (we had talked about putting a dutch door there).

    *we prefer single cook convenience, although we're hoping that the kitchen will be functional for a family of four.

    *we want counter space over storage, although storage is a close second. The counter space right now is minimal and it's difficult to cook in this kitchen. The bench seating area has storage under the cushions, so we can store random stuff we don't use on a regular basis.

    *overall size of the kitchen is 13x15. The current plan is to expand into the dining room and make it 13X17. We intend on expanding into the dining room 2 feet (see photo of dining room below, there is wall space on the left side.)

    Chicagoans, thanks for the link on drawers vs. cabinets. Based on your advice I'm going to see if I can change the cabinets next to the fridge to drawers.

    Here are the dimensions and a few more photos:

    {{gwi:1957897}}

    Entry into dining room - changing doorway into arch
    {{gwi:1957898}}

    Current entry from foyer - plan on moving doorway and changing into arch to left of range?
    {{gwi:1957899}}

    Current laundry room (wall will be torn down -- keep door?)
    {{gwi:1957900}}

    Current dining room:
    {{gwi:1957901}}

  • User
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    IF you're going to open up the kitchen to the dining room more, then you really don't need an eat in kitchen. Unless your home is Spanish style, I find the archways an unneeded expensive detail that is inappropriate to the home's style. A square cased opening, perhaps with transoms, would be less expensive and look more at home.

    Can you post a layout of everything as it currently exists? There may be many other unxplored options that would work, but we need to see what's there now.

  • pip
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    x-posted with live_wire_oak:

    We had thought about eliminating the banquet, but the issue is that the windows are lower than the counter height. Here's a photo of the window in relation to the counter:

    To put counter space there, we'd have to raise the two larger windows (the one above the sink is obviously high enough). Moving the windows would alter the symmetry of the exterior house (there are windows on the other side that match). Any ideas for what we could do in that space with the lower windows? Banquet was the only thing we could think of other than bookshelves, since counters won't fit there w/o raising the windows, which isn't an option unfortunately.

    We've been waffling on the 30in vs. 36in range. Our kitchen design has been pressuring us to go 36, saying a 30in will look too small in there. I tend to agree with you - we've got a lot going on on that wall and I think 36in will be too big.

  • lisa_a
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I love banquets next to windows but the placement of yours between DW and fridge doesn't look inviting to me at all. You have a lovely, sunny space so it's seems a shame not to make the most of it. I agree with others who have posted that there are many unexplored options for you and quite possibly one or more of the options will work without as much expense as moving the DR wall by 2 feet.

    I'm not one of the lay-out gurus here but here's one thought. Instead of raising the two windows (your proposed banquet area), can you replace them with slightly shorter windows? The upper line will match that of other windows and you could possibly disguise that they don't line up at the bottom with landscaping - or perhaps it's not that big a deal. If the expanse between windows is interrupted by a door or something else that distracts the eye, the slight difference may not be detectable. Hard to say without seeing your home's exterior. Also, can you match the siding or brick or whatever covers your home's exterior or at least find a complimentary material that won't scream "remodel?" If you can't, this might squash this idea completely.

    If you can shorten the windows to counter height - or to match the level of the 3rd window in that space - I think you'd have more options for your kitchen without moving walls.

    What do you mean by "Current laundry room (wall will be torn down -- keep door?)?" Why would you keep a door if the wall is gone? I'm missing something here.

    I'm trying to figure out what that room is behind the laundry room in one of your photos. If you told us in the above info, I missed it. Can you post a layout of your first floor with your kitchen's current lay-out? This would be very helpful.

    One last question. How critical is it that you have a table eating area in your kitchen? Can you make do with peninsula seating?

  • lisa_a
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Based on your descriptions and photos, it looks like the kitchen sink and window is at the front of your house, facing the street and that the banquet window to the right (before the corner) also faces the street. The window around the corner faces your neighbor's house. Is this correct?

    If so, another possibility is to replace all 3 windows to be the same size and at counter level. The impact on your home's exterior symmetry may be less noticeable if the windows on the kitchen side all match in size and height.

  • artemis78
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Interesting---your kitchen's almost exactly the size of ours (ours is 13x12 now and will be 13x18 when we take down our breakfast room wall). We also have two low windows (we have an older house and they were designed to be breakfast room windows over a banquette). And the same floor! :) We only have two doors so it's a bit less complicated, but we have an extra set of windows so about the same amount of open floor-to-ceiling space to work with.

    First, if you really want an island---you can definitely make one work with this space. There are some great examples of island kitchens that are 13' wide that GW folks have completed recently. However, you'd probably need to be willing to move either the range or the sink into the island to make the aisles work without sacrificing counters. (We weren't, so---no island!) You would then empty the wall opposite the island, or put very shallow cabinets on it.

    Our current kitchen has the same distance between range/sink and fridge that you have here, and we don't find that it's a problem (and are keeping the same distance in the new layout). It's longer than is recommended, but honestly I don't notice on a day-to-day basis.

    I think a 30" range is fine in a kitchen this size. Ours is larger only because we already have it, and I wish I could shrink it and pick up the extra counter space!

    For things to do with the lower windows...well, we're going the banquette route as well, but our neighbors (same size kitchen) wanted an island with seating and didn't need seating both places, so they put in shallow cabinets under the windows. (Similar to bookshelves, I guess.) They have a television hanging in the corner between the two windows that's visible from the island seating.

    I'm also not super clear on where things are in relation to your kitchen, so hard to suggest specific layout changes---which are your primary doorways? Is the laundry room to the right? (Looks like dining room is to the left?) Where does the third doorway lead?

  • pip
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Because we don't use the dining room much, the eat-in kitchen is pretty high on the list of must haves. I do hear the concern though, that the placement is not inviting right b/t the DW and the fridge.

    Lisa_a, yes, the window above the sink and the one to the right faces the street; the other window faces our neighbor's house. I think shortening the one larger window that faces the street might be a really good option; I'm going to explore that with our contractor. I think we could do it without fundamentally altering the exterior; we have a front porch where we could place chairs and landscaping that could be enhanced to disguise any changes.

    W/r/t keeping the current door in the laundry room, we are wondering whether to keep the exterior door (leading out to the side of the house). The space where the washer/dryer currently is would be all open to the kitchen, and the interior door would be removed.

    The wall behind the laundry is where the current banquet is. The banquet is behind the pantry cabinet, and the laundry room is on the other side. Here's the wall that separates the kitchen/laundry (the wall has the pantry cabinet on it, to the right in the photo):
    {{gwi:1957903}}

    Unfortunately our scanner broke in the move and I can't upload a current layout right now! Argh...

  • lisa_a
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Shortening only one window won't gain you much at all for the cost. The side window would still be below counter height and according to your drawing, it would interfere with counter along the sink wall.

    You'd have the expense of 3 new windows and siding patches but since you're not changing their location or width, you won't have to deal with installing a new header.

    Personally, I think the space would look nicer if all 3 windows were the same height. But that's just me and it's your kitchen.

    Thanks for explaining the lay-out a bit more. I think I understand the space now. I missed your earlier comment that you've already moved the W/D to your MBR closet.

  • Buehl
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    First...change as many cabinets to drawers as you can! That's one of the things we did based on what I learned here and we love it! The only "regular" cabinets in our kitchen are the sink bases and the Pet center...and the Pet Center was an oversight on my part...it was supposed to be a pullout attached to a door, not roll out tray shelves (ROTS) w/two doors. It's the one cabinet I regret.

    Second...if you open up the DR, do you think you might be willing to use it more? We eliminated an eat-in kitchen and opened up our DR and we love it! The DR used to be only really used a few times a year, so it was "wasted" space. Now, we use all rooms in our house. The biggest advantage we gained, though, is more counter space...and that was really needed.

    Number of cooks...I'm assuming the "family of four" includes two children. Will you be teaching them how to cook, cleanup, and help out? If so, you should plan on a multi-cook kitchen. Multiple cooks trying to work in a kitchen designed for a single cook can be very, very frustrating...much more of an issue than a single cook working in a kitchen designed for multiple cooks. Does one person do all the work in the kitchen (prepping, cooking, cleaning up, etc.) or do the two of you work together at times? In our home, I cook and my DH cleans up...it works out very well. Since we both work outside the home, having a kitchen we can both work in at the same time has been a godsend! Our 2 children also help out when homework permits.

    Island...If you want an island, you may have to eliminate cabinets & appliances on one wall. Your kitchen is only 13' wide...and that's pretty close to the minimum you need.

  • Buehl
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Oh, I meant to ask, how high off the floor are the windows?

  • Buehl
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    When trying to fit an island in a kitchen, keep in mind the following...... (It's kind of generic, so there's probably stuff in it that you don't care about, but I wanted to be thorough!)


    First, the NKBA recommends minimum aisle widths of 42" for a one-worker kitchen and 48" for a multiple worker kitchen. However, many here swear a minimum of 36" will work in some cases*. So, here are minimum kitchen widths with an island:

    Island w/cabinets and/or appliances on one side and no seating:
    Minimum aisles* and no traffic: 25.5" + 36" + 27" + 36" = 124.5" (10'4.5") [basis of next numbers]
    For one aisle of 42" with Traffic b/w island & one run of cabinets (on larger aisle side): + 6" = 130.5" (10'10.5")
    For two aisles of 42" with Traffic b/w island & one or two runs of cabinets: + 6" + 6" = 136.5" (11'4.5")
    For one aisle of 42" and one of 48" (for frequent/heavy traffic): + 6" + 12" = 142.5" (11'10.5")
    For ideal aisles of 48" (w/multi-worker kitchen or frequent/heavy traffic): + 12" + 12" = 148.5" (12"4.5")

    Island w/cabinets and/or appliances on both sides and no seating:
    Minimum aisles* and no traffic: 25.5" + 36" + 27" + 36" + 25.5" = 150" (12'6") [basis of next numbers]
    For one aisle of 42" with Traffic b/w island & one run of cabinets (on larger aisle side): + 6" = 156" (13')
    For two aisles of 42" with Traffic b/w island & one or two runs of cabinets: + 6" + 6" = 162" (13'6")
    For one aisle of 42" and one of 48" (for frequent/heavy traffic): + 6" + 12" = 168" (14')
    For ideal aisles of 48" (w/multi-worker kitchen or frequent/heavy traffic): + 12" + 12" = 176" (14"6")

    Island w/cabinets and/or appliances on one side and an island with seating** (i.e., empty wall behind seating):
    With run of cabinets behind the seats and no traffic or counter behind seats: 25.5" + 36" + 40.5" + 48" + 25.5" = 175.5" (14'7.5") [basis of next numbers]
    With run of cabinets behind the seats and either traffic or counter behind the seats (but not both): 25.5" + 36" + 40.5" + 54" + 25.5" = 181.5" (15'1.5")
    With run of cabinet behind the seats and traffic and counter behind the seats: 25.5" + 36" + 40.5" + 60" + 25.5" = 187.5" (15'7.5")
    With ideal aisles: 25.5" + 42" + 40.5" + 60" + 25.5" = 193.5" (16'1.5")

    Island w/cabinets and/or appliances on both sides and an island with seating** b/w them:
    With run of cabinets behind the seats and no traffic or counter behind seats: 25.5" + 36" + 40.5" + 48" + 25.5" = 175.5" (14'7.5") [basis of next numbers]
    With run of cabinets behind the seats and either traffic or counter behind the seats (but not both): 25.5" + 36" + 40.5" + 54" + 25.5" = 181.5" (15'1.5")
    With run of cabinet behind the seats and traffic and counter behind the seats: 25.5" + 36" + 40.5" + 60" + 25.5" = 187.5" (15'7.5")
    With ideal aisles: 25.5" + 42" + 40.5" + 60" + 25.5" = 193.5" (16'1.5")


    Notes:

    * The "minimum" aisle width of 36" only works if the kitchen will always be a one-person kitchen and there is no through traffic in the aisle (i.e., no more than one person working in the kitchen at a time (this includes prepping, cooking, cleaning up, getting a snack, etc. and there will be no traffic going through the kitchen to get to another part of the kitchen/house). Some people have varying aisle widths. They'll have the minimum recommened 42" in most places, but 36" at one place (like b/w an island and range) where there will only be one person in that particular space at a time and no traffic going through the area.

    ** Assumes counter-height seating with 15" overhang, the minimum recommended by the NKBA. Please do not skimp on this overhang. It doesn't really help. People still take up the same amount of room when sitting at the island as they would if you provided the minimum overhang. People can be "squeezed in" just so much...the stool & their bodies will still stick out into the aisle just as much as if there was a 15" overhang. All you do when you skimp on overhang is make it uncomfortable for people to sit at it for more than a few minutes. To adjust to the reduced overhang, people have to sit sideways, "straddle" the cabinets, or sit further back and have to lean forward farther to get to the counter...none of which are comfortable after a few minutes. (If you expect people to sit sideways, then provide 36" of linear space per person rather than 24".)

    The NKBA guidelines were developed for a reason, not b/c the NKBA was trying to give us all a hard time. They also were not "grabbed out of thin air"...they researched this and other items in the guidelines. One more thing, if you think the shallower overhang will be OK b/c you only expect your young children to use the seating, then remember that children grow very quickly (ask any parent!). Before you know it, your children will be adult-sized teens and still trying to sit at the counter (and probably w/friends). So, don't be shortsighted when planning, look into the future as well. [The NKBA recommends an 19" overhang for table-height seating (30" off floor, note new overhang recommendation), 15" for counter-height seating (36" off floor), and 12" for bar-height seating (42" off floor). They also recommend planning for 24" of linear space per person for counter-height & bar-height seating; 30" for table-height (again, note new guideline).]

    One thing to note: Bar-height and, to some extent, Counter-height seating are not very comfortable for very young children, for older adults, and for those with certain mobility issues. They also are not the safest seating for young children (clambering in/out of the seat and even just sitting at the counter at a fair distance from the floor). So if you can, try to provide table-height seating fairly close as well.

  • pip
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    wow, thank you all for your suggestions! The info on this forum has been so, so helpful for us in making decisions on how to proceed with this remodel. I have done renovations before, but nothing as extensive as this kitchen remodel, so hearing about others' experiences has been invaluable.

    Artemis and buehl, we seriously considered an island, but we ultimately decided that we'd like the open floor space instead. It would definitely add counter space, but we like the idea of an open kitchen and because the kitchen is not exactly large, we felt like an island would be too forced and make the space feel less open.

    buehl, thanks for posting the guidelines. We would have had about 36 or 38 in between the island and the counter, so with multiple workers, it might have been tight. We generally are both in the kitchen when we cook. I would imagine as the kids get older they will be in there helping too (hopefully - they are just babies now but soon I will be teaching them how to cook!) I would imagine there will be up to 4 people in there doing various things (kids setting the table, us cooking and prepping), so to keep the flow open is important. Plus we have very large (100lb+) dog who is constantly hovering around the kitchen table looking for scraps, so we need the space.

    Re: opening into the dining room - one purpose of the arch is to open the space up to the DR. We have been told by numerous people in this real estate market that a formal dining room is important for resale purposes. We don't intend to stay here more than 5-7 years, so we are going to make the dining room a bit smaller by building into it, but we will keep the space separate. If we planned on staying, I might blow the wall down and open it up entirely to the DR. We don't really use the dining room except for special occasions. The house has multiple archways (one in the foyer, one leading to the bedrooms) so the archway fits with the style of the house.

    Our banquet is planned to be 18 inches. Is that tall enough/too tall? We plan on having a standard size round table, and for the next year or so, high chairs around it.

    I hope I've answered everybody's questions! There is a lot to think about here. Thank you again for all your input.

  • lisa_a
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    If a formal dining room is what people expect to find in a home in your neighborhood, then yes, keep it. If that's a real estate generality and not necessarily true for your home, your neighborhood, that's another thing altogether. Who's giving you this advice? Friends or realtors?

    How big is the DR? If you said, I missed it. Can you spare 2' from it without it becoming cramped?

    If you opt to replace both (or all 3) windows so that they are counter height, here's a (possibly crazy) idea to consider. Suggested cab sizes are estimates based on your drawing above. It may not work but it might spark other ideas for you.

    I can't remember how to do Paint so I can't show you but I'll walk you through it as best as I can.

    Starting at the side door (bottom right side). Move the fridge to the corner, eliminating the small cab between fridge and door. Next to it, add a 20" cab, then the DW and then sink under the window, now at counter height. Turn corner.

    30" cab with drawers, then 30" range with hood centered between windows, 30" cab of drawers, Super Susan in corner. Turn corner. (I tried to work in a BCC in the corner but that meant reducing the 30" cab with drawers to a 16" or 18" cab - again, guessing on sizes and I thought it might be better to give up corner space to have more usable cabinet space.)

    36" cab, then 60" bench for banquet. This should end about at the foyer doorway. Table can be 60" or shorter so you can slide onto the banquet from either end. High chairs opposite the bench for now, chairs there later. My best guess is that you'll have about 4' (possibly more) between range wall and seated diners. If you wanted more distance, you could move the foyer doorway to the corner, giving up the cab against the DR wall, and move the banquet about 2' further down.

    MW could be placed in a cab above the counter (or in a cab that extends to the counter?) next to the bench. Easy for snackers to access or for quick warm-ups close to the table.

    Clean up area to right of sink. Prep on either side of range. Perhaps dinner prep on one side and a baking area on the other?

    This does require relocating plumbing and gas lines but it separates your eating area from your work area. This way when kids tear in and out of their seats (and you know they will), they can do so without crossing the cooking zone. That's a good thing. When my now HS senior was young, he used to run laps around the island - where my cooktop is! Good think we shooed him elsewhere during mealtime prep or we could have had some bad mishaps.

    As I said, this is perhaps a crazy idea but I wanted to get you thinking about your kitchen's potential if you replace those windows.

  • artemis78
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Ha, your household is sounding more and more like ours...we also have a giant breed mix, and you do need to plan around them spacewise--food areas too! :) We're also planning to be in our house for about another six years, and consequently thinking about resale (though not designing explicitly for it).

    We do use our dining room daily, but nonetheless decided not to open it up to the kitchen beyond the 32" doorway that's there now---I would have liked to do a slightly wider opening, but my husband wanted a door that could be closed. This was one of my "regrets" about our layout for a long time, but happily, just a couple of weeks ago I was at a party for some friends, and what do you know---the hosts had the same house, with an almost identical kitchen layout! So I spent way too much time walking in circles through it (luckily said friends are also about to gut their own kitchen so they were understanding!) and asked the owners a lot about how the flow works for them (and got to observe it in action for a party, too). They like it a lot, and haven't had problems with the connection between the two rooms being small.

    Banquette benches at 18" are fine, I think. We've been testing ours out with an IKEA bench for the last few months and I think it's 18" high x 16" deep, and seems more than adequate.

    I agree that you need much more space around yours, though. I would fiddle with that first and find the ideal banquette (or at least the options), and then adjust the other space accordingly. Right now, if you open your dishwasher, you'll hit a highchair---ditto if you need to get to the microwave. Can you adjust the fridge wall to pick up some space there?

    Alternatively, what we're doing is shorter benches on each side of the banquette with a smaller table (total eating area is 48" x 66" in the current plan, though we're doing that as Phase II so it may get adjusted later). This gives us a little under 2' on either side of the eating area---one side is for a highchair to be pushed against a wall out of the way, the other is for the dog's bowl.

    The places I would probably play with first are the fridge wall and the dark wood cabinets---the 18" counter to the right of the fridge doesn't seem like super useful counter space, so maybe you could pick up some space by shifting that? You might even be able to shift some of those uses to the bottom wall---not exactly "proper" layout to have the refrigerator on the other side of the walkway, but could be worth it if it makes it possible to have an eat-in kitchen (and if it fits, which I can't tell...)

    Good luck! :)