buehl... I'm not eliminating any option! I even had a U shaped where the north leg was bumped out some and I was able to fit an island in. It was on my last thread. Looked like this:

We're going to stay down at that house this weekend so I may show the Mr. these ideas to get his input. If he freaks and goes all negative on me... I may give up and just remodel my house here, get alot of cats, and become a reclusive old lady!

I kind of like that! It has a BB island (I assume BB since it's brown) for cutting/prepping on...and it's not a barrier island. It's pretty much a straight shot from the cooktop or the sink to the Ref.

It also opens it up a little bit more and even makes table clearance better.

Hey rhome... I'm curious... which of the three is your pick? You've seen all my mental explosions!

What kind of seating are you planning for in front of the TV?

I think I like the galley. Each has its own positives, and look like they'd be very reasonable places to work--but the galley seems to have plenty of work area, I prefer how it looks (from both directions, but, especially, the family room), and I like how the dining area is separated and has a little more formality and class than the ones with the fridge behind the table. It's harder to get to the pantry from the working area of the galley, though, so does it have enough storage for the everyday things you'll want to have at your finger tips?

For some reason the U reminds me of a diner-style kitchen, with the cook on view in the center. That's not a slam on it, because I think that's kind of cool, and it really has separate work areas for separate tasks, which is nice...But the separated zones won't be as big a deal for a one-woman show. I have to put it in 2nd place from my point of view. This one stops the eye on the way through to the windows, where the island leads the eye to the view.

The widened U uses up more of the already small sunroom. The island is nice, but I just don't think you'll need it, and I don't see it as the natural place to work for any of the tasks with so much more convenient counter space on the perimeter.

I much prefer the U shape with all that lovely counter space, but I love working in a U.

I've never worked in a U shaped kitchen so I don't know. But.... I HAVE TWO LAYOUTS THAT COULD WORK! Now that's a fact that makes me smile. I'll tweak the galley one after school to reflect the suggested changes. It only took me about 6 months to get to this point. I find points I like about both. Like sarcholos... I like the counter space of the U. And like rhome... prefer the view/overall look of the galley. I think I would eliminate the eating overhang and make the island a version of double depth. Plus, I'd have 5' more of counterspace/storage (albiet, not quite as convenient) over by the table. I could keep the coffee makins' and mugs in the uppers and large platters, casserole dishes, things like this large ceramic thing I only use at Thanksgiving for mashed potatos. OH! My Mom's china could go in glass uppers there!

Here's the coffee table idea I mentioned and it was supermom who gave me the idea. This would be for the sunroom for extra eating. I'm thinking armless sofa or love seat there... like 2 slipper chairs joined.

Here is a link that might be useful: convertible coffee table

I like both of these layouts but I think I prefer the look of the galley kitchen especially if you are going for a more contemporary feel like the Hansen cabinets.

Before deciding on a final layout, I would strongly encourage you to consider the furniture placement in the adjoining family and sunrooms and to decide on a cohesive plan for all rooms. The sunroom in particular seems like an awkward space to design because of the limited wall space and egress issues.

I know you're in love with the table but I think a smaller bistro size table with a banquette against the wall would really open up the space.

OH man.... what I went through to find those chairs. Found them on ebay after months... had them shipped from NY (shipping cost more then the chairs), refinished and recovered them myself. They're so BEAUTIFUL! Low profile backs, curved lines... don't know if I"m brave enough to part with it linley!!

I'm in agreement with linley1 that you have to determine furniture placement in the sunroom before you proceed with the kitchen. If you can show that the furniture won't fit, he may agree to let you use the whole space for the kitchen/dining area and give up the notion of a "lounge". The only way I could fit a sofa in that space was to put it under the window, but then you can't see the TV. Could he be happy with being able to watch TV while cleaning up or sitting at the peninsula/island and just using the sofa for "lounging". You could butt the sofa up against the peninsula and watch TV from there, but then you have to give up your overhang. Below are some quick, crude drawings to give you a better sense of the space. Keep in mind that the stools can be pushed under the overhang when not in use, so the island isn't quite as tight as it looks.

I personally like the island better than the U. It opens the kitchen up to the sunroom and the back of the house, which I think would be great given you have a screen room and pool and the great views in that direction. That was my driving force in mentioning the L with an island. I could see putting something in the oven then sitting in the sunroom with a glass if ice tea while it bakes. Also makes it easy if you grill too. It connects the kitchen to the back of the house better.

cheri... thanks so much for the 3D... it really helps. DH had couches in there before (with the existing old kitchen) He just placed seating and TV's in front of the window. Certainly would not be my plan. I'm thinking a wall mounted TV on a swivel on the right side of the window. A slim armless sofa on the same side under the window. I could also do one under the north window. I'm talking small scale stuff. I'm not looking for a big screen TV as we will have that in the family room. Don't forget... the 2nd bedroom will have a TV, the master (about the only time I really like to watch TV is the news in bed as I fall asleep) will have a small flat screen, and we keep an old TV out in the screen room. I don't even really watch TV except for Thursday nights and the news. The more I look at it, the more I feel that the island is "me" and true to my original vision. Though... I do also like and could be happy with the U shaped.

I'd present your SO with these options and see what he likes. If you tell him you like both and are willing to go with the option he prefers, you may get more buy-in and support.

I've got an idea for something between the "U" and the galley. (And my apologies in advance for complicating the thread.)

An L-shape with island. (Is this what mom2lilenj was suggesting?)

Keep wall and southern leg of your "U". Have an island from North to South. (Maybe not a deep one though and shorter than what you have.) This will give you back some additional workspace and the leg will keep people out of your work area while not closing it off entirely.

This might give you a little more clearance around and walking by the round table/chairs.

jayne

That's what I was thinking buehl. Though I know he's still thinking that taking out the partial bearing wall that currently exists between the kitchen and sunroom will make me love his old layout. And no matter how many times I tell him that an open appearance will not net me any additional linear feet in counterspace; he keeps saying "but it'll look totally different". Second... his brain works by first: How much work is entailed Second: How much will it cost. Once he gets past those two things.... he'll be able to pick a layout. Instinct tells me he'll prefer the galley style. We'll see... (really... I really really can't wait to get one with this already)

Elyse, am I remembering correctly that the reason you don't want to put your table in the sunroom is because DH likes to relax and watch TV in there? I can't recall what your table looks like but would a setup like this possibly work?

{{!gwi}}

Another vote for the U-shape just because I would personally find it better for me. However, as many have pointed out, this is your kitchen and ultimately you should choose which is better for you and how you use your kitchen. When you go to visit again and if possible, take a couple of rolls of the blue painters tape and tape measure. I was able to do this recently in the old part of kitchen space for a few pieces I wanted in the kitchen and it was an eye opener. While I am still going to be able to do what I want w/ a little tweaking, it pointed out things I need to make sure DH and I are watching for when the GC gets to that area. It will also give you an opportunity to walk through putting up dishes after washing, making a meal, filling the coffee pot, getting things out of the fridge, etc.--just make sure you walk around those pieces you tape off and not "through" them!

I'd like to see drawings of an "L" with island before I vote....

And can I see pics of the chairs?

I love how much time you are spending on layout. I obsessed about mine for months and even now (after kitchen is done) I will mock up new ones when I see something interesting. In six months, I still haven't come up with anything better than what I did. You will be glad for getting it right when all is said and done.

O.K. both the plans have merits, but I lean towards the galley version. Partially because the U would make me feel like I was on display while cooking in my little dollhouse kitchen (you know, the kind that is missing one wall and you move your dolls around in..OK, I digress) and, there is no barrier to keep people out while I am working.

Another thought, what style would you say your home is? I think the U fits a more traditional home and a galley a bit more modern. Of course, finishes will be the main factor in both, but a galley feels like more of an efficient work horse to me.

The U-shape kitchen is actually a little forced to me since you don't have a wall on either leg of the U, so basically it is a one wall kitchen with two penninsulas. That may not be a bad thing, but it strikes me as a little different. Also, the refrigerator seems too far from the sink for me, I would want it closer. It would be helpful to know where the traffic flow goes beyond the lower portion of your drawing.

I didn't mind the extended U with the little island. I have clients who have a moveable narrow 22" x 56" chop island in the middle of their kitchen and it is invaluable to prep for them. It looks cool too, like a little piece of furniture...

One more thing, as kitchens go, an L-shape kitchen with an island is the number 1 kitchen design going and has been for several years. They are efficient, attractive and popular (think resale). It would be great to be able to see that option.

For the sunroom, is there a reason the sofa can't go on the same wall you are putting the table on?

Just some thoughts.....GOOD LUCK!

First things first...
{{!gwi}}

Closer up:

Now... I will do the painters tape thing.. good idea. However, the old kitchen and bearing wall is still in place so I can't actually "walk through" since the kitchen exists where I want to put the table. I will take some pics of the place. I have others I had posted months earlier but at that point it was still a mess from the renters that trashed the place. It's been cleaned up so you'll be better able to see the space.

I've done "L"s with a island but the L was on the north side not the bottom. I draw something quick up in powerpoint (2D) to see what I come up with and post on here.

mindi... I agree with the "oddness" of the U from the outside; particularly the family room side. The family room is just below where the bottom peninsula would be and that is also where the entrance to the house is. There is a mini hallway to the right of the L that leads to two bedrooms. The 3rd bedroom is the converted garage which is through the laundry room/possibly to be walk in pantry.

I love banquette seating but don't know how it would work for us. I can't push back the any of the large window walls. I also wonder if as we get older; will it be difficult to get in and out of that kind of seating (sliding down and such). For grandkids... great! And no problem now; but what about when I'm 75?

I'm gonna work on an L layout now! Thanks so much for you input!

OH... my "style". Even though the DR set looks traditional, I'm very eclectic. In terms of space; I prefer open informal, comfy, more contemporary. I prefer not to have delineated formal spaces. That help?

I did a quick draw on an L layout with an island. I put the peninsula on the upper end primarily because I already had one half drawn and saved that way. What I don't like: Too little usable counter compared to the other layouts. I didn't bother to draw it the other way because I felt it would be the same space either way and why close up the bottom when what I want to be able to do is see straight through to the back and outside as much as possible. If you guys feel it would make a difference and you see something in the L + island that I don't; I'll whip one up. So... whaddaya think? You like the L better then the galley or U? My first impression is I don't but Lord knows I've been known to change my mind more then once!

Elyse - re: U vs. galley...I like them both. I like the U a little better, but that's just me -- I'm a peninsula girl. But I think they're both good.

The only thing about the galley I'd point out is that the fridge being in the corner like that...just make sure you're planning to choose a fridge that can be up against a wall. I don't know exactly which ones need the 9"-12" of clearance between it and the wall...but make sure you get one of those, or put the fridge at the other end of that run.

Have fun choosing!

The good thing about this plan (island one) is that the fridge can be pulled out even with the jog in the wall, so voila'!...no interference. We discussed at one point, depending on how deep that jog is, that Remodelfla could have deeper counters on that wall to make everything even with the pulled-forward fridge for 2 plusses. I just goofed and didn't make sure to show it that way in that rendering.

All that and I forgot to include the L layout... what a dope!

I just don't think there's enough depth to make the island part that integral; especially going north to south.

Elyse, I just realized that I had your sliding doors on the wrong wall...very nice of you not to mention that my furniture placement didn't make any sense. Sorry. Anyway, after close inspection of Rhome's 3D, I can see now why you're thinking you can make a sitting area in the sunroom.

Back to the question at hand...it's really hard to decide which layout is better because they're both so different. I guess for me and the way I work, I'd like the U better (even though I hate corners). There's so much more counter space and more storage close at hand (wall cabinets). The only down side is that the fridge is a bit further away than you'd like it to be however, it's a small space so it's really not bad at all. In fact, I don't like where the fridge is in the island layout...it's too close to the cooktop for me. I also like the way the table isn't competing with the counter seating in the U layout. Btw, I love your chairs. You did a beautiful job refinishing them.

Actually, it's all three 9' windows and then there's a regular sized door to the left of the window. We had PLANNED on taking out the back window and making it a french door. That is on the back burner... by leaving it a window; there are more options for furniture placement.

Thanks for the chair compliment... I just love the lines of them. The material is a rich embossed leather/suede that I picked up at Walmart for $7 a yard! I bought so much extra of it that I made DS a headboard out of it and still have a ton left over!

If you don't think you'll have enough counter space with an "L", I guess it wouldn't work swapped to the bottom. I had intentionally selected the bottom because of the position of your round table and the idea that the path to the refrigerator wouldn't be a nuisance. I had started with your "U" shape from above and included the sink and dishwasher [from the top leg] in the square/rectangular island while keeping fridge in the lower left corner. That's why it hadn't seemed like such a loss of space. On the plus side, you'd gain good access to the counter/cab on the north side of your cooktop.

By the way, it looks like you'll need to fully pull out your chairs to sit down/stand up because the sides are not open so you might need to allow for some extra space in your layout. Too bad you can't put the table in your sunroom. With windows on all sides and a table like that, it would look like a great "breakfast room."

jayne

The table is a 42" round. With the chairs I need 6' round. I haven't given completely up on getting the table into the sunroom. I had even come up with a couple plans that still allowed space for a small sitting area since I have 16' in width. I doubt highly I'm gonna get it to fly though... time will tell...

Man... I wish I could fast forward so I knew where this was going. Part of our differences is that (to me) he moves in negative slo mo and I want to take a sledge hammer and start demo RIGHT NOW!! We're a good balance I guess...:-)

"Part of our differences is that (to me) he moves in negative slo mo and I want to take a sledge hammer and start demo RIGHT NOW!!"

Wow, how I know that difference! Mine isn't necessarily negative, but I always want things *yesterday* and wish I could start on things myself while he's off 'lolly-gagging' at work. Unfortunately, since I'm the idea/design person and he's the real craftsman with access to all the good tools, it would be a very bad idea for me to do that... As you said, a balancing act.

I revised my L layout attempt because I realized that if I move the table up I could still have room for some lounging on the other side. I enlarge the size of the table for truer representation of how much space I would need with the chairs. (6') I may be able to sell this to DH since it would involve less plumbing moves then the galley and he still gets his sitting area. I like that it's more open than the U on the bottom. And I love the thought (unless it would look too choppy) that i could have an island with 2' of BB and 4' marble. Seems like I have a lot more storage with this setup. Feedback??

I didn't really think about an overhang anywhere since I'd have a "coffee bar". I figure I could make it a table height counter with legs for support and uppers above for storage. I won't dare call it a coffee bar to DH cause he'd think I was going all Starbucks high end in a low end town on him! I need a place to keep the two extra dining chairs when the leaf isn't in which is most of the time.

Random thoughts and comments/questions:

Where do dishes go?

The 'coffee bar' at table height with chairs won't be very easily accessible. Are you planning that as the spot for the coffee pot? Too low, IMO, and, like I said, blocked by chair backs.

I hope you're not really planning the island at less than 2 ft deep? I'd make it 4 ft.

Whatever happened to your desk?

This may be some very bad news, depending on how adjusting it turns out, but your seating in the TV area is very small and shallow...Not to scale, I don't think, with anything real you'd want to put there?

It's pretty tight around the table it looks like. Is this oval supposed to encompass 2 chairs only? When you put 4, I don't think you'll be able to get to the sitting area.

I can't jump on the bandwagon for this one. At least not yet. :-)

Now that I see the table and clearance positioned in the sun room, I'd like to change my vote back to the improved galley [with 12 or 15 inch of extra depth on the island and your butcher-block.]

Your frig can be in the galley and you get the wall of dishes and display back. Carrying dishes to table is a little walk but sink/dishwasher is midway between.

Plus, it seems like your table has a more prominent and intentional position.

jayne

Now rhome... ya' gotta know I'm not going to be dissuaded that easily!
OK.. coffee pot... since I don't drink coffee and I stand barely 5' I didn't think about height for the coffee pot. I can put it by the frig on the 21" counter. Yes... I know the sink is across the way but you can't have everything! I don't want to call it a "desk" cause a prior iteration that had a desk DH responded, "Desk?! Who needs a desk! It's won't get used". So I call it.... 15" deep counter to keep 2 dining chairs with uppers space." OOOO... I just had a thought. What if I made the entire island table height with a partial overhang and put 2 dining chairs there? Like this? Changed the 15" left side to dish storage.

Sunroom... I tried to do the 42" round table to scale but may have done a poor job. I tried to make it emcompass 6' to account for the chairs. 4 chairs as pictured. The room is just shy of 16' L and from the peninsula I'll have a 9'4". Are you telling me that I won't have room for a couple of slipper chairs or chaise? Even if the table takes up 8 ft with the chairs out... wouldn't I have room for some small scale loungy thing? Not a full size sofa that you'd nap on with the puppies... that'll be in the family room. I searched to see what was available and I thought a couple of slipper chairs butted together would work. I just measured a couple of my couches and my scale is off... but figure 30" depth by 3' length maybe? Could make an L ... against the peninsula and window? I'll try to use my Live Interior progarm and see if I can approximate

I am thinking out of the box here... It seems to me the table and chairs and the sun room seating are the most troublesome. If it were my space, I would use a couple of the DR chairs for seating and add one more chair that DH just adores. Then, for the dining table use a square table that expands or a drop-leaf table. In a day's time, it is used, what an hour a day? Push the table against the wall when it is not being used. Another thought - could you use a drop-leaf table as a behind the sofa table? If sun room seating is aimed toward a TV, you could eat and watch the Sunday games.

Are you using the squares of the graph paper grid to equal 1 ft? It seems you are in the kitchen. If so, you show the table at a little over 4 ft wide, which would only include chairs on the sides shoved all the way in, if that. You show less than 1 ft between the table and the window. If/when you're using that chair by the window, you need at least 30" between window and table, pushing the table and the chair on the opposite side into the traffic aisle. The seating furniture you show by the TV is only about 20" deep...Kind of like a piano bench...

Personal preference: I dislike L shaped islands, so that colors my opinion just a bit. (I think they're odd and 'forced.') If you want seating, why not just make a rectangular island with overhang on the family room side?

I'm not too tall either, but table height would hurt my back as a work space. I prefer 33" or so.

I thought I made the table cover about 6' in the sunroom. Man... I would hate hate hate to get rid of this table because it doesn't work in the space. I looked almost 3 years for that table. Maybe I should just draw a 42" square table and add chairs. Maybe my visual brain will get that right instead. The grid is the same for all. I'll fix the dimensions of the seating.

Sorry, Elyse, I thought it was the chairs you were so attached to.

Both cotehele... I found the table after I bought another one and then sold the one I bought to keep this one. I found the chairs later on ebay and had them shipped then refinished them. I know it's only stuff... but it's probably my favorite furnishings in my home... that and my bedroom set. And don't be sorry... you're taking the time/effort to help me! I fixed the dimensions but didnt' put in the dining chairs. You really don't think it fits? I could make the working part of the island standard height or a little lower for prep... then lower a portion for table height. I don't remember who but I do remember several posters who had tables attached to their islands and I LOVE that look.

I am one stubborn girl... aren't I...

I think you're straying a little from the original focus which was keeping things open for that gorgeous view of yours. To me this last layout feels a bit maze like. JMHO. I still like the galley and agree with cothele that you could use your two extra chairs(beautiful, btw) as seating in the sunroom with a small round table between. Then DH could have whatever seating he prefers in another cozy conversation pit in the sunroom.

Sorry to be a Negative Nelly again, but take a look at your L shaped seating in the TV area and see that if one person sat in each spot, their feet and legs would overlap... And there's approx 2 ft between the corner of the dw and the corner of the table...Pretty tight.

OK.. I"m gathering the L shaped is not great shakes so ... now... I know this goes against convention but would it be totally unreasonable if I took the frig in the galley layout and put it on the bottom left like it is in the L shaped and U shaped? I could have a glorious expanse of counterspace if I did that. There's always a small under counter frig or frig drawer but that seems like overkill for 2 people. I need to tweak the galley to show the proper depth of the table. I would scoot it up a bit too to give better clearance for the bottom. I do tend to gather my ingredients but there's always that instance when a sauce needs an extra splash of something. If you think about it... most "add on " ingredients aren't really refrigerated though... or is that wishful thinking? I'm imagining that sandwiches and snacks would be made on the end of the island where I'd like to put BB.

Putting the fridge over there would make your island into the dreaded 'barrier island,' and it would drive me crazy. It is so often that anything I want to grab and add is when time is important and I don't want to be circling an island, taking my eyes off the stuff on the stove. So many people here have remodeled their kitchens to eliminate a barrier island, that it seems a bad idea to plan one for a new and forever kitchen. The fridge location's not so bad in the U without counter to navigate around, but the path would completely blocked in the galley.

An undercounter fridge might work, but too much money for too little space for me...As much as a full-size fridge! Since bf/dh wants to keep costs down, that one might be a hard sell.

There are some narrower refrigerators (Bosch, Liebherr) that would free up some galley space but then you'd probably need a secondary one in your pantry or lower left wall because you were counting on 36-inches.

I'd imagine that in Florida, you'd need a place in your kitchen to be stocked with cold beverages and ice as well as other stuff. I think you also had plans for a [pantry?] freezer so this might be too many refrigeration appliances unless you bring the freezer out and put a refrigerator/freezer on your lower left wall.

jayne

Nah... I don't want to complicate things so much... not worth it. I'll have over 4' of prep space over by the UC oven and drawer space that'll be more straight run then I have now. I'll find space for the 2 extra chairs... there's a corner in the family room, there's the guest bedroom, and there's the sunroom itself. Even teh music room will need a chair. So galley seems to be the favorite with a modified double depth island , narrow cabs on the back side. I think it gives me plenty of storage too.

One last question, ok 2.

1) The TV location. I think you said "wall-mounted". Is there currently a wall-mounted one there? If not, do you think there will be an significant glare problem?

2) How much traffic goes through the sun room doorway and will the table block it?

jayne

Well jayne... we don't live there now. We rented the house out and now are going to fix it up to live there. I don't know if there will be glare. I doubt it as there is a screen room that backs onto it so there's plenty of overhang. I think the back of the house faces north so there shouldn't be too much glare. You see that little line I have in the layout out back? That's the door ... there are three large windows on all sides. Originally we were going to switch out the 9' back one for a french door but put that on hold for now. I think we'll see how we feel about it after living there with the changes we plan on making. If we want... it's an easy change. I'll scoot the table back some but there should still be plenty of clearance to get out back. It's a small house... but it's also only two of us. I'm never going to get to perfect in this foot print but hope to reach my goal of open, informal, comfortable, and functional.

Glad to hear it. Sorry for asking pesky questions like this and am glad that they don't seem to be big issues.

Again, good luck with all of this.

jayne

Not pesky at all jayne... in fact, appreciated! Everyone asks questions that help me think about things I don't see. All these great brains... It's Wonderful!!
Thank you!!!

You guys are so right! I can't believe it's taken me this long to see what you're talking about all this time. My darn table is hanging me up. I'm staying down at the house this weekend and have been standing, staring, and measuring. I NEVER realized how much more space a round table takes up over a rectangle table. You've been telling me and I've not heard you all. If I were to switch out my table to a smaller, narrower, rectangle on; I have so many more of my options that would work. I'm bummed.... but... well... I guess I'll just love my table to death the next couple of years while I'm still in my house and then have the fun of finding the perfect table that will work somewhere in this space. I won't be sharing layout options this weekend with BF/DH. He asked if we can please let it lie for now because he has too much to think about of other thing he has to do. Get ready for the new HUGE shed to be installed, prime and paint the outside of the house, recut the hurricane shutters we picked up for free. Unlike me; he likes to focus on just one job at a time. He always jokes that it must be exhausting being me because my brain never stops and is always thinking of the next thing I have to do. Serves me well as a Mom and a teacher....cause I always have someone/something in front of me I need to take care of. OH WELL... I do love that table but I guess I'll have to love it for now and find a new one to love as well.

On the other hand, I put a round table in my kitchen, because it allowed me to arrange the chair diagonally, so that the table would take less room. I can have my table much closer to the wall that way, and keep chair backs out of my aisles. Maybe chair arrangement is all you have to change? Not sure if it works in your case, but something to consider.