How come you canned your hutch in Plan 3?
OK.. here's my take...
Plan 1... love it and I'm not a symmetry person per se. I might feel a little "cramped" by the cooktop area with the tall heavy pieces on either side.

Plan 2...the lack of symmetry does not bother my eye. I like the greater expanse of countertop. And now that I look back at them all I think the fact that there is not a tall piece angling against the smaller hutch allows that hutch to stand out more.

Plan 3...I don't care for the wall oven cab up against the window. Perhaps if you showed the hutch on the other end it wouldn't bother me. I dunno... Plan 3 doesn't send me.

On any of the plans you have that awesome island for prep so I wouldn't worry about 6" more on either side of the cooktop.
My bottom line?... my preference is the second plan.

I like a plan B modified so that there is actual counterspace next to the ovens instead of that bookcase thing.

The non-symmetrical plan also has the added problem of putting the ovens next to the refrigerator. I've been told that this is a no-no because both units have to work harder to combat the nearby heat/cool. Not sure how true that is, but thought I would throw it out there for chewing on.

Plan 1 looks lovely and very symmetrical (oh and just like mine), but the fear I have (with my plan as well) is feeling liked I'm boxed in with the DO and REF as barriers on each side. And maybe Im totally wrong, who knows.

Plan 2 I like. You will have to cross over the cooktop from the baking area to access the oven and the fridge (unless you want to take a long trip around the island). Im not sure how often a problem will arise with that, but its a potential issue.

Plan 3 works. It gives you a nice large working area on either side of the Cooktop. The DO is "in" the baking area. However, you lose your pretty little hutch that could give your space lots of character.

sarchlos, I think you mean Plan 1? My space is tight on that cooktop wall, so I don't have space for a 24 inch counter around the corner from the ovens. That hutch serves as a narrow transition from 12 to 24 inches. Make sense?

remodelfla, my baking center or larger hutch would have had to shrink to make room for the DO and 2nd hutch both.

i like plan 2 even though i am a "symetrical" kind of person. i will also say, i'm strictly looking at it from an asthetic viewpoint....it sounds like the others have given more thought to function!!!

hmm, in Plan 2, will I need to worry about the fridge doors colliding with the oven handles?

I like plan 1 best, mostly because I really, really, really don't like the oven and fridge next to each other. It bothers me a lot from both aesthetic and functional perspectives.

I'm guessing that's a 36" cooktop, so with the 24" on each side, you'd have 7' of space. I can't imagine that would feel too cramped, especially with all the other open space you'll have.

I think the hutch you have planned for that corner is pretty, but I think it would look better without it there. I think having a cabinet next to the ovens that opens onto the counter and then a little open wall space would be more attractive. It would also make it even less likely that you'd feel cramped at the cooktop.

I still like Plan 2 best. However, if you feel you like Plan 1 best, I noticed that you posted on the recent boysrus2 regarding her cabinets. She posted a pic that shows her overall kitchen that has a view of DO and hutch like what you show in Plan 1 but has a column (?) in corner which really helps me like Plan 1 if you were able to do.

Plan 2 but without the hutch & I'd switch the oven/ refrigerator positions.

I think the maybe the reason nobody except twogirls is picking Plan 3 is because my software, unlike rhome's, makes ugly renderings. ;)

I have 14 feet to work with on that cooktop wall. 3' for fridge + 3' for cooktop + 4' for counter space on each side + 33 inches for DO cabinet. That leaves me 15 inches. Should I have added inches for the thickness of the fridge and DO cabinets??

I never planned to have nor am I committed to another hutch in that corner, but I don't have enough room for a 24 inch cabinet that would be necessary to meet with the counter on the window wall to make a continuous run around that corner. Without some sort of bridge this is what I will have:

{{!gwi}}

I vote for 1, but I would mocify the pot rack and open shelves to give better balance there. The plan is symetric, so that wibble-wobble there seems more off than it would if the plan were merely balanced -- if that makes any sense. I think it will look more off balance when you place pots hanging down on one side and then display things on top of the shelves on the other. You might add a utensil rack below the shelves and have something, even a display shelf, above the pot rack. You might consider moving your sink back from the edge so that you have a bit of landing space on the end of the island.

We've addresseed the 2 feet either side of the cooktop on anotehr thread and with other kitchens. I wouldn't wnat less, but with an island right there, especially if you bump the sink over just a bit, will give you good workspace. My prep sink is about 15-1/2 inches centered in a 30 inch sink base, so I have about 8 inches of counter over the cabinet and then we rounded the island end so that we have about 11 inches at the center. That's enough space for many things to land if needed.

I'm not that big on symmetry, but Plan 2 feels off balance to me and I don't think that the additional space going back into a corner is going to feel or work that much more spacious. I actually think having the cooktop off center there makes it look and feel more cramped.

I don't like the oven by the window on Plan 3 and the plan doesn't have as much interst as your other two.

Thank you, lascatx, great suggestions. I'll bump the sink over a bit. I had it further down before but then my butcher block was too far from the stove, so I'll try and strike a happy medium.

Erika, please expound on your window situation. What kind of view do they offer and are you planning on moving/changing them out?

From the plan you posted on part 1, it appears you have just barely 3 1/2' from adjacent wall to window - without moving your windows, these plans won't work.

If you are planning on moving/revamping the windows, you may have some better options for consideration - please fill us in!

I also noted a fireplace? Real or memorex, lol?

hi Paulines,

Windows will be new. I want huge ones to show beautiful view of our woods. Fireplace is real, wood-burning, zero clearance.

Hi, Erikanh. You've really been coming along. Assuming windows are as you show them, I have a little trouble voting--they all have good points.

I agree that poor little #3 is a bit handicapped in presentation. Ultimately, though, it comes down to 3 or 1 for me for overall layout (I want the hutch back). Charming as the corner hutch picture is for #2, and useful as the shallow counter could be occasionally, the others come together in a way that is more visually "right."

When I was cooking a typical meal there, also, I was working off the end of the island in an island-stove-fridge-island triangle. If I got crowded on the island, for anything that was going to be cooked (I do little pastry baking), I'd shift to the stove, not down the island or around the corner over to the window counter.

I actually like #1 best for appearance--especially the view from the social area, which is a big thing for me. I'll walk an extra step or two to get that. I also agree that 7' is enough space. I'm looking at a 7' bookcase wall right now--no problem. And having the fridge a quick little chasse-close for efficiency, great.

However, given that 90% of my cooking would take place between island end and stove, I would have been doing a lot of play cooking trying to decide if the extra space in #3 would be needed at all for daily cooking (given that I'd expand in that direction.) The longer counter is more in visual scale with the rest of the space, and I like that, but needing more actual room for prep bowls etc. is the reason I'd choose that #3.

So, bottom line #1 by a whole half point.

I think I like #1 the best. I like that the DO doesnt block the window light and you can keep the pretty hutch. Really, you have a huge island, 24" on each side of the CT is plenty. Im leaning toward this layout in my kitchen as well.

So when are you building #1? Hopefully before me so you can be the guinea pig :)

Would either of these be an option?;

Instead of having the 3-4' windows in a run, have one, then your hutch and then the last 2 windows. I know you'd like your hutch to be a focal point and with glass doors flanked by the windows would be a showstopper!

OR

Same as above, but instead of the hutch, put your cooktop in between the windows and your hutch on the far right end of the run. Sink & DW on the island (across from hutch-easy access) and fridge & oven stack on the end of the cross run (or you could have the fridge, OS & a pantry stand alone and have a straight run along the window wall).

That gives you 15' of windowed prep & baking space!

Sorry I didn't get to respond yesterday ... it was my little girl's birthday. Thanks so much everyone for your input. It seems like most people don't like the 2nd hutch to act as transition in that corner.

Most people seem to like #1, and I like it too, I'm just worried about only 24" on each side of my cooktop, and feeling cramped in like Elyse mentioned.

twogirls, you seem to be progressing with your layout faster than me, so I think you may have to be the guinea pig! ;)

paulines, thanks so much for those ideas. I never thought of having the hutch to the left of my sink, I guess I'm so used to putting dishes away on the right side. Would this eliminate my baking area near the ovens?

I also tried putting the cooktop on the window wall, but I didn't have much room for my pot rack and I didn't want windows too close to the cooktop to get greasy.

I wanted to try your idea of splitting off 1 window.
{{!gwi}}

{{!gwi}}

Do you all think that 36x30 is enough for my baking area? I can always use my island for a secondary rolling area. I'll go try and tape it out in my kitchen right now.

Happy (belated) birthday to your daughter!

Well, we're back and I'm excited to see all the different ideas you have. WOW!

(First, my four year-old, upon being asked what he hoped was for dinner [while camping], responded "gyoza!" and then my two year-old starting singing "yoza yoza yoza," and did I have the makings for gyoza? Of course not!)

Back to design. Your most recent iteration (with the windows separated) concerns me because of the person using the oven potentially feeling squished. I haven't laid it out on the floor or anything, but looking at the bird's eye perspective it just looks like a place where I'd get trapped by children, pets and a husband at the cooktop. I don't know if your daughter likes to be with you in the kitchen or if you often have more than just you cooking at the same time, but I guess, well, I'm just channeling my family!

Additionally, I think the prep sink is too far away from the cooktop to provide the utility it should.

I like Plans 1 or 2 the best. Every manufacturer is different, but our cabinetmaker was told by the manager of the Denver Thermador / Bosch / Gaggenau showroom (they met up at the local shop from where we purchased our appliances) that our Thermador refrigerator and our Gaggenau wall oven were okay next to one another with a ~1 1/2" filler. ("okay" meaning that neither would have to use more power to ward of the others output) Since it worked out best for our plan to have them next to one another we just said "great!" and that's what we did. (our filler is slightly more than 1 1/2")

Scrolling back-and-forth, back-and-forth, I guess I'll have to go with Plan 1 because the oven and refrigerator are separated, meaning you'll have your efficient baking area, no walking past the cooktop. And, whoever is opening the oven / checking on something in the oven won't block someone else's access to the fridge / freezer.

I'm off. Screaming mimis await ....

Regarding the prep end of the island, it's probably discussed long ago, but how about ending the stool/sitting area just a couple feet (or less) short of the island end to secure the entire short-end span for working? Even slid up a foot would make a difference, and someone could still sit there and help. That would also allow another cabinet on that corner. In addition to its utility, I think it's mass would look good there.

Hi Brooke!

Gyoza! It's my favorite Japanese food since childhood. My mom's are more delicious than I've ever had in any restaurant. For Thanksgiving every year she'd make 200 and my 2 brothers would eat about 50 each. I don't like red meat so I make mine with ground turkey and lots of veggies. I guess you make yours with just veggies?

Ok, I need to stop fiddling around with these layouts. I'm going to go with Plan 1. Now I'll go and fix my island ...

Thanks everyone for your feedback!

Erika

Thanks Rosie, I'll try it!

don't have a lot of time to write but wanted to weigh in and will look more closely later... at first glance, I much prefer #1... love the look of it and the functioning I think would work for you.

Your range wall situation would be very similar to mine with 24" of counterspace on either side of the range and the fridge to the left of the range... in my kitchen, I have a similar expanse of counterspace to the left of my sink and love it. I tend to do my prep work on my countertop to the left of the sink not on the counters near the range. If I had more space near the range, I probably still wouldn't use it like I do the space near the sink. I like to wash meat off, dispose of vegetable cuttings, waste, etc in the sink --- possibly if I didn't have a garbage disposal I'd use the kitchen differently.

My kitchen is not very big... doesn't look nearly as big as yours, so for us 24" on either side of the range was all we could manage, but it is honestly working out just fine. Do you have any ideas of where you'd be doing the bulk of your prep work?

I have only one concern with #1 which is the support for the counter on the island. Would this look like that? Can we dress it up at all or eliminate it? it looks a little awkward to me. otherwise I absolutely love the look your are going for and particularly love the hutch picture you posted. that will be fabulous.

Erika, I like the split windows, do you? I would put the pantry & fridge to the far right of the window wall and do an L shape, especially if you are not putting main sink & DW on the island (the corner might be ideal for some curved p & p racks). End the run with your oven stack.

The fridge would be a bit far from the cooktop, but it's met halfway by your prep area.

Hi mama, thanks for having a peek and taking time to weigh in.

My main prep area will be the island near my prep sink. I prep on my little island right now, and I like facing the family room. The countertop keeps changing: first it was all butcher block; when I decided to add a prep sink, I put some marble in to surround it; then, I realized I don't need 9 feet to chop on, so I changed it mostly to marble. Ideally, the butcher block would be nearest the cooktop, but that pushes my prep sink too far away.

rhome's drawing didn't show it, and my software is incapable but I think the island will have a narrow drawer stack on each side for support.

If you have any ideas, I would love to hear them!

Thanks,

Erika

paulines, I'm trying to picture what you're describing. I'm out of room on the window wall past the hutch, because that's where the door to the deck will be, and just beyond that will be a large archway to my dining room. I'm not sure what you mean about L-shape, because I thought I already have an L ...

Here's a rough sketch. You could instead do a corner prep sink with some rounded wall brackets for your p & p.

{{!gwi}}

paulines, I'm sorry I didn't get a chance to respond earlier, I had some work (non-kitchen) that I had to catch up on. You were so sweet to take the time to sketch that out for me, photograph and post it. Thank you!

I did my best to follow your sketch, but my windows ended up being too small. I really want a nice vista into the our backyard and woods. I want a pretty view for people sitting at the island, from the family room, and for me while I'm in the kitchen of course!

Looks like I'm going to stick with Plan 1. I'm not sure if I'll still do the second hutch or figure out something else for that pesky corner. I'm also trying to work out the best configuration for my island.

Well, I was supposed to have my layout finalized today to meet with the KD, but she had to push our appointment to Wednesday.

I've been discussing my "corner problem" with a friend and she suggested sliding my cooktop into the corner since I have so much room on my window wall. At first, I balked at the idea, but then I went and studied SharB's kitchen, whose kitchen I love. I would definitely gain some counter space around my cooktop and I'd also have a nicer view out my windows to my right while cooking. The one downside I see is my baking center would be further from the ovens.

Opinions?

{{!gwi}}

Here is a link that might be useful: SharB's corner range

Well, do you possibly see yourself mixing at the counter, then loading pans on the island? If so, things end up pretty close to the oven. The only thing that would bother me is that in our house, someone likes to bake while someone else is cooking, so people would be crossing paths. Did you ever try corner ovens, like Alku05's?

I wouldn't do the little bumpout for the baking counter, making 2 (to me) annoying hip bumpers.

Hi rhome,

Yes, I can see myself loading baking pans onto the island as you describe, especially because with the convection ovens we can bake multiple pans of cookies at once.

I did try the corner ovens, but that left me with even less space around my cooktop.

The crisscrossing zones does worry me, though.

Erica, I think with a little tweaking, the above plan could work - although I have to agree with rhome about the corner ovens as opposed to the cooktop! Are you opposed to the sink & DW being in the island?

Hi Paulines, I missed your post before, I'm not sure how. Putting DOs in the corner would actually lessen the workspace around my cooktop. However, shifting the cooktop to the right and into the corner eliminates the need for that skinny hutch and allows me to utilize some of the counter run under the windows for my cooking workspace. It doesn't solve the problem of crisscrossing zones, however.

I don't think I want 2 sinks in the island, because it's my main prep area, and I want to be able to spread out.

I'm at a standstill on my kitchen, just because I can't make up my mind about the layout. I was supposed to order the cabinets last week, but I ended up telling the KD I need more time to think. It's actually kind of embarrassing to me that I'm so indecisive. =(

Does the refrigerator have to stay where it is? What if you put it at the far right side of the sink. It would give you more counterspace around the cooktop.

Take your time...really. This is the most important part of your project. Once you get your layout down, everything else should fall in place (for the most part, lol). It's not indecisiveness, it's called considering all your options, lol

I know you're concerned with splatters, if the range top is next to your windows, but you have plenty of room to avoid that. On your long wall, I'd do two huge windows separated by the range hood with CT below. If you left 5' or so wall space for the hood, it still leaves room for two 6' or wider windows and a 4'w hutch (I can't recall the exact length of that wall - 23'?)..and that wall would still read panaramic view.

Most folks spend much more time at the prep, baking & cooking areas than at the sink, that window wall is very valuble real estate and this arrangement allows for multiple preppers.

The main sink & DW would go in the island. With a nice deep sink, unsightlyness really isn't an issue and your island is large enough to still have usable work space and seating.

You could put the hutch at the DR end of the window wall (across from the DW) and the fridge and DOs on the short wall.

You'd even have room for a prep sink to the left of the CT.

Hello Friend!

Not to be a bore, but what about switching the butcherblock prep area (end of the island) with the baking section of the countertop (to the right of the corner cooktop)?

Then the end of the island could be lowered for your baking needs and you'd have the prep / cutting area (butcherblock) right next to your cooktop with your beautiful view.

???

Okay, I'll be back later with more thoughts -- time to put on pajamas!

Oh yeah, and I'd switch the sinks: put the prep facing the windows (so it'll be to the right of your butcherblock) and put your clean-up sink / dishwasher in the island. That way, all your prep will be right there in a row (no dripping as you cross the aisle).

Hi houseful, thank you for the suggestion. My hutch will be used for my dish storage and needs to be to the right of my sink, and I don't think the fridge would look good next to it.

Hi again, paulines. Thanks again for all your helpful suggestions. I have about 23 feet to work with on that long window wall: 6' (hutch) + 12' (2 windows) = 18 feet. That leaves me about 5' of wall space for my 42" hood and my wall rail for pots. Won't that be kind of tight? Also, putting the cooktop in the middle of the wall puts my fridge over 10 feet away. That seems far. I need the fridge on the end so that people aren't coming into my work area all the time. Also, I'd like my prep sink and butcher block to be on the island so that I'm facing toward the living area while I'm doing food prep.

Erika,

There are several different schools of thought regarding fridge placement and proximity to the range/prep area. I even once started a thread on this subject, lol

If I remember correctly, it was about 50/50 - some liked the fridge to be a few short steps from prep, others liked the fridge outside their work area and didn't mind traveling a bit (I'm raising my hand here), a few were able to accomplish both? In any event, 10' is just about within NKBA guidelines.

It screams out to me in looking at your inspiration pics that the CT & hood flanked by two big, beautiful windows is the way to go - give that some thought and go from there.

The other things to consider is the idea of an island main sink & DW - it's not for everyone, would it work for you & your family? Are you a stacker or a rinse & load type of person? The island would be a great staging area when hosting and with the sink & DW there it impedes that usage (both functionally & aesthetically). It would give you less island prep space, but really easy clean-up.

Also, your storage needs. I know you really would like a hutch on the long wall - is that at all negotiable?
A 6'w hutch is going to compete visually with your window view - it's a very 'heavy' reading item, especially if you are thinking of painting it a dark color.

What if you located the sink, DW & hutch on the short wall? (fridge would be to the DR end of the window wall - easy access to DR and for folks sitting at the island and I'd do 2 ovens s/s as opposed to a stack on the windowed wall, code permitting)

I've rambled enough... let me know what you think.

The lower left hand corner of the island would be a good spot for a small u/c fridge and corner wall brackets for your p & p storage maybe?

lol, are you still there?

Hi Pauline and Brooke, sorry for the delay responding ... been busy with preparations for DH's birthday this weekend.

I decided to stop dithering and finalize my layout and here it is. The biggest change I made was moving the fridge next to the dining room and putting the fridge drawers near the cooktop. It's not perfect but I'm letting go of trying to achieve perfection.
{{!gwi}}

{{!gwi}}

Things I like: 12 feet of uninterrupted windows, 39 inches on each side of cooktop, no crisscrossing zones, shallow pantry storage, big hutch, room for broom closet.

Things that aren't perfect: island as landing zone for fridge is a little far, but I've done it for 10 years with no problem; no open shelves; no room for table height seating in kitchen.

Onward to the next challenge: choosing paint and stain colors (still not sure if I want a stained island) and countertops. I know I'm doing honed marble on the island and perimeter. I'd like to do stainless around the cooktop, but need to research it more ... I wonder if it gets dented? I think it would be neat to do a wood top on my dish hutch, but 4 different countertop materials is probably too much.