Is your plan to change the sloped ceiling to a flat ceiling down by the load-bearing wall? How high are the ceilings, then?

My first thought is that keeping the short wall is kind of nice, you can keep prep dishes or a surprise birthday cake out of sight :)

The existing ceilings are 9'...wasnt planning on changing the slope because of issues with the roofline.

Funny about the hidden birthday cakes. :) I guess that's one bright side to it.

But I think it ends up creating a dead space and blocks light from the bay windows.

Have you identified which part of the load-bearing wall is load-bearing? Could it be shorted or reduced to columns or anything like that?

It's much easier to incorporate columns into a larger design, and you'd still have sight-lines and light going through that area.

Another general idea is to take down the non-load-bearing wall and then swap the locations of the kitchen and dining. You'd have more room to make that island work, and the dining table would work well with one end in the alcove.

Yea, I'm working with my contractor to see what can be done about that wall. Hopefully can take it down to just a column at the end of the span. Or remove it altogether, but that's questionable at the moment.

Ok, so spoke with my contractor and we're 90% sure that we can turn the odd wall into a support column. I'm attaching the latest comp here.

My problem is what to do with the awkward space in the bottom left of the plan, between the island, bay window, and wet bar. It's too small to even fit a 4x4 table (with clearance to walk around). I'd like to have an actual dining area... maybe make the island an L like in the OP? But that doesn't necessarily leave much seating space, if it was attached to the island.

Ugh... decisions. Would love any advice!

Where are you going to put your dining table?

While I think you could rework that column and make it part of the design...I do not like the way the windows are virtually ignored and kitchen 'parts' set down, almost randomly.

Also, wouldn't you need a support at the right end of the oven? That doesn't seem to line up with your column.

I can understand you liking a 'modern' kitchen, but it still needs to work with the rest of the house and the architecture. Might be time to seek the help of a professional, for this particular challenge :)

What rooms are to the right and left of this space? I assume the room at the top of the plan is a bedroom?

Are skylights an option?

Also, can you please explain the measurements? I've never seen numbers repeated like that. Like for the bottom wall in the plan, is it saying that it's 8' from the left corner to the right side of the bay window, then another 8' from the right side of the bay window to just left of the middle of the other window, and then another 6' from there to the end of the room? So the whole wall in total is 8 + 8 + 6 = 22' wide?

Basically, I'm asking if this whole space is 22' x 16' plus the bay window bump out.

Lol, sorry, those scale numbers were me copying and pasting. The scale is accurate but obviously the numbers reset. So yes, the bottom wall is 22'.

The room to the right is the garage. The room to the left is an open living room, which I've turned into a pool table room. The room above is actually the master suite... yes, I know it's awkward, but frankly I'm trying to make the best of what I've got. To the left of the master is my den, where we spend most of the time.

Everything is on the table, including skylights.

Good call on the extra post lavender_lass. As of right now, my contractor doesn't thinks we'll need one there, but that is a potential possibility. Not sure what you mean about the windows being ignored...I was keeping them open for the view I thought. :) But as I said, nothing is final yet and everything can be moved around.

Sorry...too abrupt, I was at work :)

I liked your earlier version, with the sink under the windows, but maybe that is too close to the island seating?

It seems like that bay and the other windows should have some focus, besides the view. Maybe a window seat in the bay window?

The beam seems to be right in the seating area for your stools. Any way to incorporate that into the island and still have the seating?

If you're going to have the cooktop on the island...maybe you could posts on both sides and have the hood over the cooking area. This would 'work' with the beam (maybe look like two posts) and still have seating on the end.

I still don't know where you plan to have the table??? Are you just going to sit at the island? Is that going to work for Thanksgiving? Or do you go to someone else's house for the holidays....and don't have to cook? :)

Can you post the floor plan of the whole house? You not only want to have a nice kitchen, but also a nice location for the kitchen with respect to the other rooms in the house. Since you are changing so much, it might be better to think more holistically.

Unfortunately I don't have a plan for the whole house...just this half. :) I could try drawing something out, but yes, other parts of the house are being re-done at the same time as this kitchen remodel, making things much more open. I'll see if I can put something together for that.

Thanks for the double column suggestion lavender_lass! That's a great idea... I was definitely trying to figure out how to incorporate that single column into the design. I don't want it to be weird there by itself. I toyed with moving the island down a few feet to join, so that the column would appear to be sitting on top of the island, but that throws off the aisle spacing above and below the island.

Originally I thought to put the sink under the window, for the view and to occupy what is currently dead space, but my contractor talked me out of it, saying it wasn't a good idea with the sloping roof there.

Regarding the cooktop...I'm not set on it being on the island. Could be against the walls...just was toying around.

So the dining table - or lack thereof - is a problem. I'd like to have one, but I'm not seeing how I can fit it in the space. So then I thought of just making the island super long and putting the "dining table" seating around it. Not ideal, but not horrible either. I don't generally host dinners with 6+ people, so I'm not *too* concerned about a Thanksgiving situation, but it's always nice to be prepared for that, especially for future buyers if I ever sell.

I feel like I've tried a million things, but as I'm no expert, I wanted to post here to get some inspiration from all of you folks that I've been following. How to properly utilize the entire space (ie no dead space) and give enough room for people to eat at a table: this is my dilemma.

Yes, please do post a sketch of the whole place. Even just a rough shape with simple overall dimensions (e.g. 16' x 22') of each room would be helpful.

Ok, attached a very rough drawing of the rest of the house. The overall shape is correct, but I for sure have not gotten the dimensions exactly right on the left side of the house (I'm not home to measure this stuff at the moment). For example, I know my 1/2 bath on the left side is not 4' x 4'!! But hopefully this is a good preview of the entire joint.

As part of this remodel, the wall between the den and living room is coming down as well, so you'll see it creates a giant flow through open space from den to kitchen.

Thanks for all your help!

Your 'pool table' room could be the dining room...if you're concerned about resale.

While I like the idea of the island with the larger seating area on the left, here's another possibility, with a peninsula for sink/clean up area and a prep sink between the fridge and ovens. The cooktop would be on the back wall with plenty of storage.

Also maybe a small table in the bay? Just a quick drawing...back to work :) {{gwi:1953552}}From Kitchen plans

Oh man, lavender_lass, you are a friggin genius. This is the best layout I've seen, and I think it addresses all my concerns. Let me play with this a bit - not sure I would put the oven there, but you've set me light years ahead. Thank you soooo much.

Okay, so this is out of the box, but you did say that you are making big changes.

The master bedroom where you had it seemed like the best location for the kitchen. It is the only room that could have a door directly from the garage and be simultaneously open to two other rooms (ideally, it's nice to have the kitchen open to both the living room and the dining room). The kitchen where it was originally, even expanded as you were planning, could only ever be open to one other room (the living-turned-billiards room).

Additionally, you had that column/short wall in the original kitchen that you could not remove for structural reasons. That made that area naturally suited for a small room with a window. Like a bathroom.

Moreover, you had that bay window that you didn't know what to do with. Bay windows are ideally suited to framing a small seating area, like what you'd see in a big, fancy bedroom.

While I was at it, I gave your extant two bedrooms better closets and your half bath a window.

I'm actually really pleased with how everything else shook out. You ended up with soooo much storage -- more closets and cabinets than you could could shake a stick at! And the window placements in the former master were basically perfect for a kitchen -- you have solid wall space in very hand spots for your fridge and stove, and you have awesome corner windows overlooking backyard right where your main prep space is. I was worried about the pool table, but it just worked out once I flipped the master and kitchen that you had natural places for two large tables without actually creating a special room for the pool table. (I was thinking about resale, and I think pool-table-less people wouldn't be so excited about an extra room that chops up the house, isn't a bedroom, but is excessively large to be an office. People don't like rooms that are hard to define.)

And did I mention all the storage?

I am thoroughly impressed Jillius. Your plan makes a ton of sense, and I like it a lot.

Two hesitations on my part, and these are purely to do with cost... removing the wall between the den and current master/new kitchen, and the reclaiming of the shed for interior space. This requires taking down some structural walls and finishing out the shed... might push me over budget.

But that said, this is extremely interesting. And given my existing plumbing, I don't think there'd be too much rework to do there either.

Hmm... the more I look at this the more I'm intrigued... thanks for opening my mind! I'm going to talk to my contractor about this.

Quick q lavender_lass about your peninsula idea. In that layout, there is approximately 5-6' between the peninsula and cooktop/back cabinets. Is that too much? I've generally seen people stick to 3-4'...

Hi Kinected - I find your thread very interesting. If budget allows Jillius' plan is great; if not, LL's is also great. I will say that we have swapped rooms around in our own home and I would rather move than live through it again, but we were DIY and it took years. With a contractor it will go more quickly for you, but it will be a major upheaval for months. Dust, dirt, no kitchen, washing dishes in the bathroom - just make sure you are up for the challenge :) For reference, we swapped the kitchen into the DR space, and demolished the old galley kitchen and adjacent/parallel hallway to make the new, open DR. Framing, electrical, plumbing - we had to do it all.

I'm not LL, but with regards to the aisles to her plan, I do think 5' is a bit much but not too bad, and 6' is way too much. 4' is the minimum recommendation for a kitchen with multiple cooks, so between 4' and 5' would be ideal. Something you might consider is having the cooktop run be deeper than standard to both reduce the aisle and give you some extra depth on that side - which is very, very useful. You can do this with custom depth cabinetry ($$$$), or you can do it by building a 2x12" (or 2x8" - whatever brings you up to the window trim) frame against the wall, installing the cabinetry against it, and running the countertop over both.

Good luck!

Glad you like the idea! I just placed the peninsula, where the window stopped :)

If you can move the peninsula closer to (or under) the window...it would give you more space for the table. And maybe room for a few more stools! It all depends on your current layout and how much you can afford to change.

Just remember, it almost ALWAYS costs more than you think to remodel any space. I would budget at least 20% for unexpected surprises, especially in an older house.

I forgot to mention that I'd put skylights definitely over the dining room and anywhere else that seems dark. I assume there is actually a window somewhere in the den?

Also, have you heard of the Chezerbey blog? Given that you are turning an old house into a modern, open layout with some unusual roof slopes and maybe skylights, it strikes me that you would find a lot of inspiration in what they've done.

Here is one of their posts that includes a lot of before-and-afters: http://chezerbey.com/2011/10/31/renovation-and-reason/

And another:
http://chezerbey.com/2011/04/03/one-year-ago-today/

And one showing the remodel process more:
http://chezerbey.com/2010/12/30/2010-year-in-review/

P.S. tracie.erin, we are also DIYing most of our remodel, and we're in year 3 now of living in a construction zone. Nice to hear that we're not the only ones that took years. I've been feeling like we've come really far and are almost done, and people come over and are, like, "Wow, this place is really torn apart!"

Also, your suggestion of deepening the counter tops in LL's plan to narrow the walkway a bit is the same suggestion I was going to make. In one area of our kitchen, we bumped out the cabinets and extended the counter over the cabinets and the bump-out, just as you described. The extra-deep counter is amaaaazing.

In case you don't have the budget (even if you do, watch that it doesn't fall into the over-improvement category for your neighborhood) or patience for the remodel Jillius has suggested, here's another idea to consider. It's a modified version of the one LL presented earlier.

My measurements are based on my guesstimate that your space is 16 x 20. I got to that by counting the little marks along the side of the drawing. If you gave us the room's dimensions anywhere in your posts, I missed it. I also based my measurements on the assumption that you are getting a counter depth fridge (that's what it looks like on your drawing) and not a standard depth fridge.

Anyhoo, here's what I did.

I eliminated the peninsula in favor of an island and shifted it closer to the range wall as tracie.erin suggested. The island has a rounded seating overhang, 18" at the ends and 21" in the center.

I enlarged the pantry and moved the ovens next to the fridge so that they are closer to the primary work zone. The ovens are in a 33" cab even though most only need a 30" cab. That's to give a little more buffer between fridge and ovens. I assumed that you are getting cabinets with minimal framing so that a 39" cab is sufficient to house a 36" fridge.

I swapped the location of the clean-up and prep sinks. Moving the prep sink to the island gives you multiple prep zone work areas. You have loads of counter on each side of the range, plus a long stretch of island counter, as well.

You also have lots of counter and storage around the clean-up sink. You could add glass-fronted cabs on either side of the clean-up sink for a pretty view from the front door.

And if you're like many of us, having a coffee station right outside the master bedroom would be a good thing for getting the day off to a good start. :)

There is room for 3 seats at the island and because the island is shifted closer to the range wall, there is room for back to back seating (60" is the NKBA recommended minimum aisle for back to back seating).

The trestle table (the one at PB, linked below, is merely a suggestion) gives you room for 6. btw, you don't have to use the window seat. You have room for a 60" long table with a 60" aisle between its top end and clean-up sink wall and a 44" aisle between table and window seat. When you have company over, you can extend the table towards the window seat, with someone seated there.

Here is a link that might be useful: Pottery Barn Trestle Table

Thanks lisa_a! I like that PB table... I'm probably looking for a counter depth fridge (not a custom "true" counter depth) as you noted. Good eye. Your drawing also gets rid of all the dead space in the kitchen I was worried about.

I've been spending the past couple of days just toying with all the suggestions coming in. I really have to say I can't believe how helpful this place is and all the ideas it's given me. Some of you people should do this professionally (and I'm sure some of you do).

I sent a few of these over to my contractor and he thought they were all workable, but I need to sit down with him. I'm attaching a mod I did of jillius' drawing that leaves the shed in place, since my contractor had previously told me it would be hard and expensive to reclaim that space. So instead I built a hallway around it and managed to fit my washer/dryer in there (those are currently in the garage), so that's a nice bonus. Ignore the placement of the bathroom fixtures...FPO. My only hesitation with this path is that people could peer into my master bedroom through the bay window from the street.... the bay window is higher than the street and my front yard is big enough that I don't think it would be a huge problem, but still.

Thank you guys again so much. I'll update again when I talk to my contractor, if not sooner!

If you choose the 'whole house' remodel, I would definitely get a VERY detailed budget. Swapping the kitchen and bathroom might be more expensive than expected...and relocating two toilets.

The living room dimensions look very small. Would a couch and seating actually fit in that space? Maybe with a smaller dining table? While I do like the added storage, carefully measure everything to make sure it will all work together :)

Oh, and Lisa...excellent plan!

This post was edited by lavender_lass on Fri, Oct 3, 14 at 14:20

You started the ball rolling, LL. :-)

I echo LL's advice to get a very detailed budget for swapping spaces. I would be very surprised if it wasn't over $100K and that's likely a conservative estimate since you never know what surprises lurk inside the walls until you open them up. If you intend to stay put for a very long time, the remodel may well be worth every penny to you. However, if this isn't your forever home, it would be wise to consult a real estate agent to see what your return on investment would be. You don't want to be the most expensive house in the neighborhood.

Good luck!

Haha, yes, you're both right. Luckily, I have one of the smaller and less nice houses on the block. But I'm definitely trying to stay cognizant of remodeling myself out of the neighborhood... I also don't want to go so modern that it doesn't fit the house anymore. My house was built in 1949 and there's a certain character to that.

Speaking of, thanks for the blog link jillius.

My budget is $50k-ish ex appliances, and so that's going to be a huge factor in what I am able to do. Which is one reason why LL's suggestion is a bit more appealing than jillius'. But thankfully jillius' drawing doesn't actually involve too many plumbing or electrical changes, so that should keep the cost down.

And I know we don't know each other, but I'm very...shall we say...thrifty, when it comes to purchases. I fully expect, for example, to get my new stainless steel appliances at a scratch and dent outlet. My motto is "if it ain't on sale, I ain't buying it." And I'd be perfectly happing going Ikea or CabinetsToGo for cabinets if only there were slightly different options.

My contractor already expects that I'll be shopping around and making my own purchases when it comes to the materials. Right now the biggest question in my head is cabinet pricing... which as we all know can be all over the map.

I don't have any plans of ever moving... I love my neighborhood. But you never know what'll happen of course, so I don't want to go crazy on this - keeping an eye on what a potential buyer would like.

Forgive me for the poor whole-house layout. I didn't include windows anywhere obviously. The whole back wall of the den is a giant window view out to my pool (which I just renovated two years ago). So I don't think it would be feasible to have the room orientation as jillius suggested, but the room is still wide enough I think to accommodate that floorplan. I wouldn't put the fridge right next to the den, and I'm toying with a peninsula idea there too...I think it could work.

I do love both layouts. But cost is going to be a huge factor. If jillius' layout is 1.5x the cost of LL's...well...that would settle it.

It's boggling to me how much has to go into all these decisions. I can't imagine doing this with multiple projects at once.

Again, I am no expert...but I've heard relocating bathrooms can be VERY expensive. And an entire new kitchen (even with wonderful sales) is going to be more than you probably expect.

While costs can go sky-high with the luxury purchases, even a simple remodel can run into unexpected costs. Electrical, plumbing, HVAC, lighting, flooring, etc. are all going to be a factor with whole house remodeling...and that's before you start taking down walls.

I also have some concerns with the smaller window area, in the original kitchen. With the sloped roof, what is your head-room in that space? Would it work for the kitchen or the bathroom? Do we need to make that area more for short storage? I know your contractor had some concerns about this...so can you give us a bit more detail?

The biggest part of the bathroom will be the line for the toilet, which needs to be 3" pipe. The good news is that the current kitchen is on a crawlspace, and I'm taking up the floors in it anyway, so running new plumbing under there shouldn't be a big deal. This might actually be easier than keeping the bathroom in the current location but moving the toilet, because the current bathroom is on slab. Digging up slab is obviously more involved. I'm not an expert either, so I've relied a lot on advice from builders I know. Again, I'll have to explore the costs with someone who knows more than I.

I've fully prepared myself for the "fun" to be expected when tearing down walls - I've watched enough HGTV to know that much. ;) With an old house like this...I could "lose" a lot of money in those surprises. Which is also why I'd like to tear down as few walls as possible... which is another nice benefit to jillius' design.

Re: the sloped ceiling... Maybe a picture would help illustrate that best.

The regular ceiling in the kitchen is 8'6". The lowest point of the slope (at the wall) is 7'.

The beam you see is 13" high. The combination of everything makes it just feel closed off.

The problem is that the roof is similarly sloped. This area used to be a porch that a previous owner enclosed. These old houses all had covered porches with really low roof lines. Because of the roof, we can't really "up set" the beam into the attic... there's barely any attic there to "up set" into. The beam, however, does have some decorative panels on it, so I'm sure the original beam is not really 13" tall. Once I peel those layers off we may have something better to work with.

That said, it's an awkward space no matter what.

Are you actually thinking you might move the half bath? If so, you could also put the washer and dryer in the hall where that half bath was (facing the hall). The pipes would already be there, and that location is much handier for laundry than the hall from the garage.

Or you could just lose the half bath altogether (you have a full bath in the same hall that could work just fine for guests) and put a washer and dryer where the half bath was. That'd be your cheapest option.

This post was edited by Jillius on Fri, Oct 3, 14 at 18:42

If you're using HGTV as a guide for how much this remodel is going to cost, you're in for a rude shock, sorry. Contract0rs and designers hate HGTV for the unrealistic expectations it gives homeowners. The sad reality is that you are not going to be able to do the full house remodel for $50K, not without it being almost completely DIY and not without going bargain basement on everything.

But you can do the more modest kitchen remodel that either LL or I drew up for you for $50K and quite possibly less, depending on your other finish choices. For instance, laminate or butcher block counters will save you $$ over stone counters. Don't forget to keep value in mind as well as price; deals that seem too good to be true might very well sucker punch you later.

As luck would have it, with only a slight modification to the island, my Plan A works perfectly with IKEA cabinet sizes.

It looks like you may need to make adjustments to the upper cabs because of the ceiling line but I'm sure you'll find tips on the Ikea hack sites.

I've linked to a list of past GW threads on budget kitchen remodels. Hopefully you'll pick up lots of tips from the posts.

Here is a link that might be useful: Budget kitchen remodel threads

This post was edited by lisa_a on Fri, Oct 3, 14 at 19:26

Lisa- That looks great :)

And Jillius- I really like your plan! Just concerned about the budget.

Here's one more idea...if you're still stuck with the post.

Ideally, you could carve out an arch or have an opening between sink wall and little island/peninsula. But, if you had to leave a solid wall, maybe you could hang kitchen utensils, etc. on kitchen side and art on dining side. {{gwi:1953556}}From Kitchen plans

This post was edited by lavender_lass on Fri, Oct 3, 14 at 20:12

Haha, guys, don't worry too much. I mentioned HGTV tongue in cheek (hence the winky). I do have actual experience in doing some construction/remodeling, having redone a lot of my first house and some of this one already. I wouldn't call myself an expert (especially in kitchens), but I do have an educated idea. Plus I'm handy. :)

And no, while the idea is tempting, this is still just a kitchen/master remodel, not a whole house remodel. And given my budget, I already know I'll be making quite a few sacrifices.

I do want to thank you for all your concern, input, great ideas. :) please don't stop. Love this place.

After a bit of a delay, I whipped the plan together in a 3d program and came up with the attached, based on jilius' suggestion of flipping the master and kitchen and my contractor's guidance about load bearing walls.

Walking through the 3d plan and I'm actually pretty happy with this layout. But throwing it back in this thread in case anyone sees any glaring problems. I'm particularly concerned about walking straight into the shower when you enter the master bath, but it's not as bad as I expected in the 3d view (or maybe I'm underplaying it in my mind).

Thanks everyone!

What is the issue with the shower? Ours is directly across from the shower. The glass is clear but if someone is in there if you walk in you really can't see much because of the steam. The only people who would walk in would be me or DH. Is that your concern?

I'm less concerned about walking in and seeing the shower right off than I am about how crowded the 2nd sink is next to the tub. The way you've drawn it, it looks as if anyone standing at the sink would be smack up against the tub surround.

Where do you envision placing the shower door? At the left end where there's empty space? Or next to the sink? The former would not crowd the sink; the latter would mean that you'd have to reach a long way in to turn on the water, getting wet in the process.

You've drawn an L island before and it's not the shape I have an issue with, it's the oodles of empty space it leaves in the middle of your kitchen in this latest version. Unless you intend to get an integrated, built-in fridge, you'll have less than a 48" aisle between seating area and fridge. I don't think I'd like to sit with my back to the fridge, getting a blast of cold air each time it is opened.

Would you consider this type of kitchen seating instead?

[

[Traditional Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by Suffolk Kitchen & Bath Designers Amy Birdsong

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[Traditional Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by Bellaire Home Builders Hann Builders

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[Eclectic Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/eclectic-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2104) by Morristown Interior Designers & Decorators Marlene Wangenheim AKBD, CAPS, Allied Member ASID

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[Industrial Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/industrial-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2113) by Chicago Architects & Building Designers Besch Design, Ltd.

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[Farmhouse Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/farmhouse-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2114) by Lafayette Interior Designers & Decorators LMK Interiors

If your heart is set on a L island, flip it so that seating is against the lower wall of the kitchen not the upper working part of the kitchen. Here's one L- island worth considering:

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[Traditional Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by Chevy Chase Kitchen & Bath Designers Jennifer Gilmer Kitchen & Bath

This one is dramatic:

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[Contemporary Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/contemporary-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2103) by East Anglia Kitchen Designers & Remodelers Nicholas Anthony

Why have you drawn narrow cabs on each side of the DW? I'd move the DW next to the sink, combine these 2 narrow cabs for a decently sized cab between DW and fridge.

Also, it looks like you've allocated too much space for wall ovens. A 30" - 32" wide cab is generally enough for 30" wall ovens.

How do you foresee using the pantry, counter and shelving at the bottom end of the kitchen?