I have already posted these pics in another post, but this is what we currently have (mid make over stage). Soffit over peninsula will come out.

What is on the open legs of the L? You don'y have enough room for an island with seating unless you have an open plan with no walls there. And then it could be very tight, depending on the traffic patterns and furniture placement.

Ok, well if you leave 48" in front of the ref and 48" in front of the sink, you've got room left for (90-48 x 82-48) 42" x 34" island. I'd guess you could cheat a little bit on those clearances if you wanted to.

Remember to consider the flooring in your costs. Some people choose not to install finish flooring under cabinets. Even if it is there, it will be a different color and hopefully need only minor repairs.

Not sure if I am answering this correctly, but the wall that the sink is on also has our doors to the sun room down further....about four feet from where the current peninsula ends. The other side of the current peninsula is our family room, so I would say they are open/sharing same space. The only thing currently separating them is the 114" peninsula.

Then the other wall you can slightly see in this picture. It is a load bearing wall that runs the length of the kitchen and family room, with openings to the dining room (as seen in pic) and hall/entry (not seen in pic).

I went into Lowes yesterday, and their kitchen designer printed off a page for me, and it shows 32 5/16 inches from stove and 39 3/8 inches from sink .... hmm...thats not following the 48 inch rule! She created a 57" island using 2- 18" bases cabs and 1- 21" base cab

Some of not following rules is ok. With a range, I'd practice before committing to it, tho. Put chairs or small table or even sawhorses with cardboard for the edge where the edge of the island would be. Whether something works or not is very personal.

If you can leave it there for a couple of days to see what you think, its even better. I tried a cart as an island and figured out pretty quickly it didn't work in my space - but pretty quickly meant a day or two.

Perhaps also look around at pre-made islands? A lot of those are pretty cute.

I know you measured it, but it looks to me as though you have more than 108 inches along that side?

Just assuming:

Fridge 3' + range 3' + 2-door cab 2' + 1-door cab 1' = 9' w/o the other 2' of counter against the wall?

It 'looks' like 108" inside to me?

Am I nuts? Anyway, if so that's really 11' width overall and yes you could do an island.

Oops! you are correct biochem101. I measured from where our counter top starts (next to the fridge) and not across the front of the fridge. So, that makes that wall 11 ft 9 inches.

Take some blue painters tape and tape a fake island on the floor. That will give you a really good idea of your space. If there will be an overhang on the counter, include that in your taped off area.

And remember you will need some room to pull out the chairs and sit in them and still leave room for people to walk by.

Thanks ! We will try to map it out, but it will mostly be where the peninsula is currently at, so it will make it hard to actually live with that marked off area since the peninsula is still there. We won't detach it and move it until we are FOR SURE we want to do this.

39 3/8 inches from sink to island would work but 32 5/16 inches from stove to island is too tight, IMO. 42" aisles are recommended for a one-cook kitchen, 48" for a 2-cook kitchen. Some here have gone with narrower aisles - even as little as 36" between island and range top (not the same as a range - no oven door opening in to the aisle) - and are happy with it. But 32-5/16" is cramped. Are these measurements from counter to counter or counter to appliance, or are they from cabinet to cabinet? If the latter, then your clearances are 3" less (assuming 1.5" counter overhang), reducing your aisles even more.

Please post dimensions for the whole space. It's too hard for me to determine if you have enough room for an island from photos and the partial drawing you've provided. Give us dimensions measuring from range wall (not counter top edge but wall behind the range) to the couch (I'm assuming it will stay where it is), and from sink wall to the opposite wall. Are the bar table and chairs staying in place? If so, we need to know their dimensions and placement, too, so that anything we propose gives you sufficient clearance. NKBA's recommended minimum for walk behind diners spacing is 44". You can cheat a little bit but not more than a few inches at most, IMO.

Thanks Lisa....here you go
From range wall to back side of couch is 13'6"
From sink wall to opposite wall is 15'4"

That high top bistro set can be removed. Because we currently have zero seating in our kitchen, we bought that a few years back for the kids to eat at. But we have outgrown it since we have 3 kids and 2 chairs :)

Does this help?

There have been previous discussions in which people say they have the island only 36" from a range also, and like it for the proximity between prepping and cooking. Range oven doors aren't often very tall so don't take up much aisle. I wouldn't go smaller, though, and mocking up to see how it feels to YOU is always the best idea.

We have 48" between our island and main sink so the dishwashers can open and others can get around. I think 48" is generous and 42" would've been OK for us, and others go to as little as 36", if there aren't multiple workers. So 39" could work...Again, put chairs or something that far in front of your sink and (open) dw and see what you think.

The other thing you want to watch for in your plan, if you're not adding a prep sink in the island, is to keep a fairly clear/comfortable path between your sink and fridge. If you're always have to squeeze or run laps around the island, you might quickly come to resent it.

Thanks!

Yes, you have room for an island 41.5" deep and 72" long: 69" of 24" deep cabs facing range/fridge wall, 1" cab skin to cover cab seams (under overhang), 15" seating overhang and & 1.5" counter overhang. This is long enough for 3 seats. It's also long enough to add a prep sink. I'd place it to give you a 42" aisle between sink wall and island and 44.5" aisle between island and opposite wall (I'm assuming that you will remove the bar table and chairs).

As for placing it between range wall and couch, that depends on how deep your fridge is and whether you intend to replace it with a new standard depth fridge. These can be as much as 36" deep. If you place it so that you have 44" between island counter edge and couch, you'll have 49" between island and counters on range/fridge wall but perhaps as little as 38.5" between island and new, deeper fridge, which will make moving the fridge into place very difficult. In that case, I'd be tempted to shift the island towards the couch by 2-3 inches. Maybe even 4 inches.

However, if you plan on replacing the existing fridge with a CD model (mine is 29" deep including doors & 1" air clearance behind, not including handles), then you can shift the island towards the range/fridge wall and gain more space between island and couch.

HTH!

Wow Lisa, you are great! But I want to clarify...

"I'd place it to give you a 42" aisle between sink wall and island and 44.5" aisle between island and opposite wall (I'm assuming that you will remove the bar table and chairs)"...

So are you saying you would run it parallel to the stove wall? Not the sink wall? I was thinking it would be nice if the people sitting at the island were facing the window (sink).

I guess we could make it more square, and have two seats on one side (facing sink wall) and two seats on the other side (facing stove wall).

I haven't even looked at fridge's yet, except enough to know that a french door is too tall. We currently have a freezer on bottom model, and frankly really like that, so will either go to that again or one that is all fridge and no freezer because we have a full upright ss freezer just off the kitchen across from our pantry! Guess I should see what size those come in. I don't think getting the fridge in will be a problem, the walkway from the garage/laundry room area is to the other side of the fridge

Yes, I was suggesting that you run the island parallel to the range wall. This would give you a large expanse of prep space opposite the range. A prep sink makes that space even more functional. This set-up also allowed you more flexibility with fridge selection since it allows for a shallower island than one with seating arranged as you proposed.

I'm so used to fridges being boxed in a cabinet that I forgot your fridge isn't. Since your fridge isn't inside a cabinet, you can slide it in sideways and not worry as much about clearance in the front. However, I wouldn't make this aisle too shallow, especially if you stick with a single door model, so that you can open the door without smacking the island or blocking the aisle completely.

I think it would be a good idea to determine which fridge you would purchase before you move forward with your island placement and size. A french door fridge is a style, it does not dictate a specific height. If height is a restricting factor for you, then you really need to determine which fridge you would purchase *now*. My SIL ran into this issue when she replaced their dead fridge. She found only *one* fridge that fit the space that was large enough for their family. Actually, it didn't fit, my brother had to shave 1/2" off the bottom trim of the cab above the fridge for it to work. Your options may be as limited, which means you may not be able to select a specific depth and that puts limits on island configuration and placement.

It's a bit tougher to do an island with 2 seats facing the range wall and 2 seats facing the sink in your space. You'd need an island 48" wide and 64.5" long to accommodate 4 diners on 2 sides. That works out to 48" of 24" deep cabs facing the range, 1" cab skin on the long side under the overhang, 15" overhang on the 48" side and 21.5" overhang on the long side. That's more than is necessary but not enough to add 48" of 12" deep cabinets underneath the overhang, facing the couch. I'd recommend 48" of 30" deep cabinets, if you can get them. Then you'd only have a 15.5" overhang on the long side. An alternative is to add 48" of 6" deep cabinets under the overhang, which also results in a 15.5" overhang. If you do back to back cabinets, you'd need to lengthen the island by 2" to allow for the 1" cab skins at both ends. Does that make sense?

The above sized island would only work if you're able to go with a CD fridge since it requires 6.5" more inches of space. Place it 43" from couch, 43.5" from range/fridge counter, 42" from sink wall and 52" from opposite wall. That would give you about 40" between island counter and CD fridge doors (not counting handles). You could also place your island between sink wall and opposite wall as rhome has done: place the island 48" from sink wall to allow passage in that aisle when the DW door is open, and 46" from the opposite wall.

You could do a 41.5" wide, 64.5" long island that would seat three: one on the short side facing the sink wall, two on the long side facing the range wall. You could also do a 41.5" wide, 72" long island that seats 4: one on the end, 3 along the long side. This would be a similar set-up to the one I proposed initially except you'd only have 55" of 24" deep cabinets facing the range with a 15.5" overhang at the end. Both of these configurations give you the necessary leeway in aisle spacing if you're unable to find a CD fridge to fit.

I do better with visuals so I drew my suggestions up.

{{gwi:1947360}}

Black is with standard depth fridge (est. 36" depth), 3 seat island.

Brown shows cabs beneath island.

Blue shows dimensions with a CD fridge.

Red (plan B) shows 4 seats at the island.

{{gwi:1947361}}

Plan C is the 4 seat island, 2 along 2 sides. As I wrote above, I strongly urge you to only do this island set-up with a CD fridge. Aisles would be much too tight with a standard depth fridge (est. 36" depth) since you would lose about 7" inches from the aisles.

Plan A gives you the most storage. Plan C with 24" deep cabs offers the least amount of storage.

Wow! Lisa, you are fantastic! I will look over these plans tomorrow when I can think a bit more clear, and likely have more questions. I do have one though (and an embarrassing one at that!) What is a CD fridge? :)

You can post a specific question about the distance from stools to back of sofa. People who have had that configuration say it takes 5 feet to be comfortable - the depth of a seated person plus a aisle of about 3 feet. It's not like the clearance to a wall - there's actual bodies on the sofa! With people going through to go out that slider, like I said, you might want to ask another question on that alone.

I really strongly recommend that you try the island out. Even if you just mimic it in the garage. Others opinions about aisles won't matter when if you find out you don't like it later. I know you have a hard time trying it - but really - just block the cabinets on the peninsula, you're taking them out anyway so you must be able to do without them :)

Appliances vary a lot. Some of the bottom mount refs have freezer doors and those would swing into the aisle 29-35" depending on what you get. So definitely take a look at refs too. It looks like you only have a 30" wide ref now - maybe less. You might find that changes things. A quick look at some 30-32" bottom freezers looks like average depth is 32" without handles and heights are 65-66".

My range oven door sticks out 21" from the cabinet door fronts when open - so those must vary a lot. People are different in how they work. I always stand right in front of the open door and bend over to take stuff out. It would make me very uncomfortable to do that in BUT don't take anybody's word for it. Try it out yourself.

You're welcome!

No need to be embarrassed, I should have explained it. CD means cabinet depth fridge. SD is often used here to mean standard depth fridge.

My 2 cents' worth is that Plan A or Plan B are your best bets, preferably with a CD fridge, if you can swing that. I think it makes the most sense for your space, even if it doesn't quite match your mental picture. I also think a prep sink would be a good thing to add, if your budget can handle it. Not only would it make your island function better as a great prepping area but it creates a kitchen better able to handle multiple cooks.

CD-- short for counter depth, typically around 28" total (including the door and handle) but the main body of the fridge will be about 24" deep.

My CD fridge is a free-standing model made by KA. Box and doors measure 28" deep. The handles add another 2.25" to its depth (handle depth can vary from mfg to mfg). From wall to door face, it measures 29" deep because of the 1" required clearance behind it. My measurements above reflect my CD fridge's depth of 29", not including handles.

Built-in CD fridges likely come closer to the dimensions provided by chaparral.

And oops, CD does refer to counter depth not cabinet depth. Brain fart! LOL

Looks like you've gotten great layout help. I thought I'd chime in with the suggestion to do some fridge research on ajmadison dot com. The search engine there is good at sorting appliances by type, dimensions, capacity, door style, etc. They sell most major brands so you'll get to see just about everything out there.

FWIW, I would do Lisa's Plan A with CD fridge. You're lucky to have a freezer so close by that you gave the option of an all-fridge in the kitchen proper.

You guys are fantastic, so much input! A few things I want to add to the mix....

1. We are on a slab here, so running water pipe to the island for a prep sink is not an option for us. Believe me, I am already pushing my limits to ask hubby to remove the peninsula to create an island thats virtually in the same place the current peninsula sits. He keeps asking me "why are we detaching the peninsula to put an island there?" Flow is not getting it for him :)

2. We are *hoping* we can use the existing cabs that are now the peninsula to make our island because a.) They match (can't find that door style anywhere now) and b.) would save us a few bucks! I would just add trim molding to the bottom and bead board or something like it wrapped around the sides. I say *hope* because these cabs were custom and are all one piece, there are no dividers in between each cabinet and being that we are on slab, we aren't 100% sure just yet how they are attached to the floor. I have priced base cabs already so we know what it will cost to make an island from new base cabs, I just need to find an island design plan online that fits what we need.

So, am I being discontented to want to detach the peninsula and make an island? In my mind, it would really open it up and not look so boxy, but maybe its not worth all our efforts. I am not sure it will look right to have a row of stools where the peninsula is at now then the length of the couch not far from it. You have to weave in and out to get to the kitchen!

I will tape off the area today and see how it looks! Stay tuned....

MIssy V - I NEVER comment on this forum because...well, because I know NOTHING about kitchen design, but love seeing others' approaches. I kept thinking, I hope she reuses those beautiful base cabinets for the island. YAY! Others will help you figure out HOW to do it.

I also am wondering why you are limited in height for the fridge? Are you sure the cabs over are one piece with the uppers to the right? Even if they are, I bet they can be separated and rehung higher...

javachik - the cabs over the fridge are not connected to the cabs beside, those could be removed. but then where would i put my stemware that i NEVER use?! :) hee..hee...hee

the ones that are "one cabinet" are the peninsula cabs. those are all one big piece. we had a cabinet maker come look at them, to take apart and re assemble to make the island and he wanted an arm and a leg to do it!

If you shared the info that you wanted to reuse the peninsula cabs before, I missed that detail. I've no idea how long that cab run is but looking at your photo, I'm betting that Plan A is going to be your best best for re-using these cabs.

If you can't - if they fall apart when you try to move them - then I wouldn't worry about having different style cabs for the island. Paint or stain those cabs a different color and it will work just fine.

Okay, we have taped off the possibilities and I don't see it working. It seems to me that there is not enough room to walk around seated diners with the couch where its at.

Which plan did you tape off? With a CD fridge or SD fridge? Could it just be because it's not what you're used to?

Even so, if you're not comfortable with the spacing, then don't do it. Stick with your peninsula. That ought to make hubby happy. ;-)

What about the CD fridge and the narrower island (the 41.5" x 72")? Would that work with stools and still not be too close to the sofa? The other thing to think about...how much do you walk behind the stools? Just to go outside or to get into the seating area? Can you adjust the seating area, at all?

I do MUCH better with visuals too, thank you for posting the pictures :) Honestly, when I read all the dimensions, before the pics were posted, I was overwhelmed and told hubby to read it...as long as he understood it, I was okay with being lost! So thank you!

We have it taped off with painters tape right now, and I put some tv trays in there to fill up the space so we can get use to it (before we were just walking thru the taped off area) and I took out the high top bistro set so we could actually walk around the fake island. Guess what, I think it WILL work !!!! I am happy dancin' ....but of course hubby is not. He is not happy about having to take up the floor and re do it. But, if we are going to sink money into new counter tops, then I want the right layout with no regrets.

Which leads me to this question. Which is the best layout? Keeping the peninsula or making the island? In my mind the island will make it more "open" but I will be giving up some counter top space to do this. Am I just being discontented with the current layout and wanting change for the sake of change? Or is the island a good idea?

After much debate, suggestions from GW,consultation with kitchen designer, and a lot of gnashing of teeth, we elected to move the peninsula over to enlarge our u-shaped kitchen.
Good luck with your decision!

I just saw your other thread where you stated that the peninsula cabs are 62" long and are all in one piece.

The cabs in my plans A & B are 24" x 69" and 24" x 55.5", respectively. Your run is too long for plan B - adding a 15" overhang to them would make the island too long for your space. But they would work for plan A. If you add cab panels at each end of your peninsula run, you'd gain about 2" to the cab length, add in 3" for 1.5" counter overhang at each end, and you have an island 67" long, just 5" shorter than Plan A's island. You should have 72" total length to seat 3 people but you're close at 67" length so I think it will work. You haven't said if you're going with a CD fridge, which would give you more aisle width on each long side, but if you have the leeway to curve the overhang, you could gain a few inches to the seating length.

I don't follow your logic that you'll have less counter space. You'll have the same. Actually, you'll have more because the corner that is currently unusable - where your peninsula meets the sink/DW run - will be accessible if you go with an island. If you're comfortable with the spacing, I say go for it!

If you had to construct or buy new cabinet boxes, you could still save the doors from your existing cabinets. That would solve the door style not available part of the problem.

What will you do to include the dishwasher with the reconfiguration? It seems like you would either need to put it next to the cabinet that's to the right of the sink now, or take that cabinet out (cutting it off from the sink cabinet and making a new side wall for one of them) to put the dishwasher next to the sink. Possibly you could use that cabinet and plus any doors left over after the island to continue the counter a little farther down the wall toward the sliding glass door.

BTW, the doors you have look pretty similar to some of the arch door styles in the CalDoor catalog. I can't see the details well enough in your pictures so it might not be exactly the same, but CalDoor also allows selecting profiles for the outside and inside edge of the frame and the panels so it might be possible to get something very close if you needed it.

To make the peninsula, you will also need to match the paint since even if you can reuse your cabinets you will need to make a side for one end of the island.

Thanks all, you have been more than kind to give me your feedback and input. What a blessing to have someone else think this through for me! Honestly, I am not sure which layout we taped down, I believe it was A or B, but don't think it was C. I have not looked at fridges yet, but will def do that before we actually install anything. I have just not taken the time to get some fridge measurements / prices.

Still mulling this over, I saw a picture of a kitchen that I thought looked very similar to ours (placement of main things like stove, sink, fridge), and like it. But then I second guess myself, wondering if an island will be more "in the way" to have in my kitchen vs the current U shape. Thoughts?

Here is a link that might be useful:

Hi there, MIssyV. It's been interesting reading your threads, because I posed a similar question to the board a while back pondering an L+island versus a peninsula for a similar sized kitchen and got a very different result. LOL My kitchen dimensions are 165 1/2 by 123 7/8. I'll be posting again for layout design soon and have some pretty detailed layouts drawn up for the peninsula and a mock-up visual of the L+island.

What I keep asking myself is can I really afford the luxury of 2 generous walkways into a small kitchen in a small house? And, the LR/entry will be visible once we tear down this wall and people are also making the case that you want a visual divider in that case.

I was struck that people didn't feel you were going to lose storage or counter with the island option. That is another one of the things that 'sells' the peninsula side of this argument, to me. I've done a lot of configurations - all attempting to leave a healthy amount of space around the island - and in every rendition, they offer less counter expanse and storage. Maybe I'm missing something and it will get filled in when I do the layout post here soon.

In the meantime, do check out a similar thread called something like "Did you lose your island?" on the front page of this forum.

And, I'll share a couple of pics with you about what I am working with here... Keep in mind, the Lowes planner won't allow you to extend the counter past the lower cabs, so imagine a 15" overhang where the chairs/cabinet by wall are.

Island option (rough, using Lowes standard island):

Peninsula:

Also playing with having the lowers a different color than the uppers, which is an option with a peninsula or island both, really.

I'm still mulling, too... I wonder what greta's dimensions are, and if she feels she has enough room around the aisles/stove/sink/dishwasher?

The reason I don't feel that MIssyV will lose storage or counter space is that she's re-using the same number of peninsula cabs to create her island. Storage and counter space aren't being reduced, they're just moving.

Your plan, however, isn't the same. Your island is smaller than your peninsula so yes, you'd have less storage and less counter space. Sometimes a peninsula lay-out is the right answer. Nice plans, btw. I particularly like your last version but I have a soft spot for stained lowers paired with painted uppers.

Thanks, Lisa. However, thanks to MIssV, I'm back to pondering islands and wondering if Greta's layout would work in mine, with the sink/DW and stove reversed...

Spinning-spinning-spinning...leading up to the big layout post with accurate dimensions, soon to be coming! ;)

Wow steph, I need whatever program you have! That is really nice to actually SEE what you are considering.

Lisa is correct, we are *hoping* to keep our current cabs that make up our peninsula and re use them to build an island. I am still waiting to hear back from the cabinet maker that was here last week. Waiting on him has let me mind wonder again.

Unfortunately, I think Greta's kitchen was posted a few years back, and she may not be on this site any longer to ask her for her dimensions. That would really help. And she does not have an email link on her profile :( Does anyone know Greta? :)

MIssyV - It's the Lowe's kitchen planner, available free on their website. I was turned on to it by another poster (wish I could remember who...) and had the same reaction you did.

It's super easy to use and the High Def option is surprisingly realistic, isn't it? The only drawbacks seem to be the limitation in cabinet colors and the inability to extend countertop for overhangs.

Here's the link.

Here is a link that might be useful: Lowe's Kitchen Planner

Steph...I cannot get that Lowe's designer plan to launch for me. I am using a Mac, not sure if that is my problem. It says I can use Firefox or Safari, but I don't have a program that can open it.

haven't read all of the responses, but personally, i couldn't imagine having my island 4' from my range. My island is moveable (stainless prep table) and having tried different placements, it's now set at 39" from the range (just measured it). This allows me to basically turn with maybe one step to get stuff i've prepped on the island to the range and vice versa. But maybe this is a personal preference. JME.

I need to be able to start remembering people's names around here... but someone just posted great layout pics using Ferguson that was also high def and offered darker cabinet options. I'm not sure if that will work for you or if there's a way to make Lowe's work? I'm not savvy enough about Macs to know.

If you can't manage to make anything work, maybe I could create some for you and post?

Steph, I just sent you an email so we can work this out outside of this post :) I never heard of Ferguson, so just checked out their site. Unfortunately, it looks like they use the exact same program or software as Lowes. So unless I can get it figured out, I won't be able to use their site either.

Meep, my e-mail filter is notorious. I'll go try to see if I can find your e-mail. :)

Lisa A...I just read on another post that you are not a fan of islands! Why...I had no idea ;) You have given such unbiased opinions on this thread for me, so I was surprised to see that. I appreciate you answering my questions about an island even though you are inclined to not like them. I am still researching my fridge options. Height is an issue, and if I find one that is okay in height, than the door is not reversible...grr...

I don't like islands?!?! Well, that's news to me! Too funny! Especially since my kitchen has one and I intend to keep it when we remodel! I wonder where that was written and by who?

I'm so glad to hear I've helped you. Playing with kitchen design is fun for me (yeah, I should have my head examined, lol) but I've always liked puzzles. I may look at a kitchen plan through my eyes and my experience but I also keep in mind that it's not my kitchen and try my best to put the OP's wishes first. The only time I discourage an idea - and I try to do that as gently as possible - is when that idea is unsound (won't work IRL) or unsafe. But even then I try to couch it as YMMV advice. However, words on the 'net are open to misinterpretation and no matter how carefully I word a post, I can't prevent someone from reading unintended intent into my words.

But enough about that nonsense. I'm really happy to have helped you and I look forward to seeing the unveiling of your new and improved kitchen. Do you have a timeline?

Good luck with your fridge search. We had a heck of a time finding one to fit our space. In the 18+ years since we'd bought our last one, fridges have grown to humongous sizes! I just looked at your kitchen posted above. Is the fridge cabinet a separate unit? If so, you can either raise it and cover up the move with molding (we did this to cover up the fact that we raised the cab by 2") or remove it and replace it with shelving. Working with existing cabinetry isn't easy so you'll need to think outside of the (cabinet) box. Ooooh, sorry, I couldn't resist that one. ;-)

Oh my gosh Lisa, I am almost positive I saw your name on a post about islands. In fact, it might have been Stephanie's "lose your island post", but of course I cannot seem to find that now to see who I am mistaking you for! So sorry!!! How funny. Thanks for correcting me!

Timeline...is that word in my vocabulary? We are getting closer. The cab guy gave us his estimate to take out the peninsula and re work those cabs into and island, move the DW over by the sink, ad an end piece there to finish it off, plus put in a new cab to fill in our lovely hole at the end of the sink run. And, he was 1/3 of the price of the first guy that came out to quote us! SOLD !! I have seen this guys work, so not worried (he did all the work in our friends 6,000 sq ft home...yes I have that sq ft correct). While his price is reasonable, and hubby is thrilled to let someone else do it, I would like for hubby to try and do it. I could use that money towards a new fridge :) He said it would be 2 weeks until he could get to it. My goal is early Dec, but frankly, its a very loose goal.