Yep...To balance in #2, I think you'd have to lose the section of cabinets/shelves closest to the window on the right side.

Of the 3 views, #1 looks best for that reason.

To me the 'topless' version is imbalanced by the cabinets on the right, especially because they're so close to the window.

I like the straight run by the stove. Then, losing the last cab to the right and shifting the others to the right on the sink wall would balance nicely. Open shelves could be added on the right side of the window if you want after the cabs are installed.

you seem to have stacked cabinets...around the hood and in that corner and toward the sink, could you not install the top 12 inchers? then raise the cabinets up-increasing the backsplash height and install an interesting tile backsplash there... I think that corner would feel more usable and visually inviting.To the right of the sink is an option as well, but I think the larger issue is the mwave-I'd put it at the end of that run and have the dbl cabinets immediately to the rt of sink.

coming back to the original question, i would say you could be considered as top heavy, and too far gone to go back in time.

In the very first simulation drawing, the corner cabinet is made of three parts. If this is exactly what was ordered, you will have a narrow cabinet close to the window. You could decide to leave it out. If you eliminate this mini cabinet next to the window, and also place the microwave shelf unit over in the stove corner, you will have created a more open and topless look. A balanced one.

I suspect that you might be able to rejig/re-juggle your ordered and delivered upper cabinets, but that the exposed side will need to be redone on a couple of them. (veneer?) I suspect that this was in your mind when you drew the new options above.

Thanks for the additional input. May I indulge you for one more idea, which does not go as far as some of the recent suggestions?

The two uppers on the right of the sink wall are pretty inflexible. I have a 40" space, and I need a MW in there. I'd like to keep it to 40" to match lines with the lowers. I'd really like to get the MW off the countertop. If I follow dianalo's suggestion, I wind up having to use a 15" and 25" cabinets. (The 25" for the MW.) I do not think I would like this.

Sooo, my next attempt strives to reduce some of the visual mass by the right side of the sink window by reducing the MW cabinet into a MW shelf. This should (hopefully) balance the lack-of-cab to the left of window. The cookbooks, which were to go above the MW, can go into the upper next to the range.

Again, construction has not yet started on the cabinets, so changes may be made.

Whaddya think? (And thanks again!)

I think you need something over the microwave, or it looks like it's kind of floating. The books were a nice touch.

If it goes with your style, maybe add some mug hooks or shelf under the upper cabs (by the stove) for spices/mugs. That would give you a little more interest and tie in with the open shelf, above the microwave. I think the faux-stacked uppers (with glass on top) is going to look very nice, in your space :)

I like the last option with the microwave on the shelf. I'd also put another shelf on the other side. You can always use a bit of display shelving.

Depends on how much that stretchmark cream is working.

As for your kitchen, I like the straight run of cabinets by the range and the open shelves above the microwave. If you can, maybe separate the shelves from the cabinet run by an inch or two. That way you can do floating shelves independently rather than doing something that matches the wood cabinets. I think the three lights over the window are crowding the area much more than the cabinets!

Is there a reason you want the microwave in that particular location? Any way to incorporate it into the cabs on the stove wall or by the fridge?

if you absolutely need a MW with a door that opens left (hinge on right hand side), a couple models can be unearthed. I remember antss in the appliances forum knew of one too. About 4 months ago there was a discussion thread about this.

If you keep this last layout, i would say the MW is simply a necessary thing in a spot that may be OK, all things considered.

You can space the three pendants out more. The wider the better. I think it makes the open area get confirmed as an open area. Also, the sink gets light from both sides.

IRL you may have a toaster, blender, toaster oven, and other things. Or not. The MW could be hung underneath one of the cabinets. E.g. LHS of the range.

LL, bird_lover, and anenemity: thanks for your feedback and for sharing your design sense (which I trust better than mine!). Bird: I agree with your thinking on a shelf left of sink, but the door to the rightmost cab on range wall would hit it.

Rhome: No special reason, it is just that that area is the "least bad" of all the bad options for MW placement. We struggled with this a lot during planning. Essentially, there are three areas for the MW, as you note. Many on GW advised against putting it near the range, since you don't really cook with the MW so much. Rather, the advice was to put it somewhere accessible to the fridge and where its use would not interfere with the cooks. Placing it on the fridge wall would indeed be nice; one suggestion from our KD was to have a short run (~30") of countertop left of the fridge to form a snack/beverage center, with the MW mounted above that countertop. We agreed it would serve that purpose well, but it blew any chance for a pantry out of the water. Instead, we opted for this treatment of the fridge area, which gives us two very nice and accessible pantry spaces, left and right of the fridge. (It doesn't really crowd the doorway like that, just a Sketchup problem):

Ohh, what to do? Wish I could just pick one and be done with it! (Thought I had done that already!)

Okay, I pondered all the input for a few days, and I have one more idea to bounce off of you fine folks. I put open shelving around the range and just to the left of the window. The ideas are that this will give visual balance to the MW, interest around the range, a hidey-spot for "undercabinet" (really undershelf) lighting, a place to put cooking accouterments and cookbooks. But, hopefully, be a little more airy than the design with upper cabs.

Anyone care to indulge me by weighing in again? Thanks!

Angie- It looks very nice, but the microwave still sticks out, a bit. I think it looked better with something around it. Now it kind of looks stuck up there, for lack of a better place...

I can see why you like all the pantry space, but you wouldn't need it, if you had more uppers. It's kind of a catch 22, isn't it? :)

What if you switched the upper cabinets and the microwave? Then you could put the shelf back over it, to make it more even with the cabinet, but it wouldn't be right by the sink. Then keep the shelves on the other side. It would bring your (glasses, I'm guessing?) closer to the sink and you don't really need the microwave that close to the sink. How would that look?

I like your kitchen clothed or not! Just wanted to show my small kitchen. Topless on one side (or only sporting a triangle top) and lots o' cabs on the other. We opted to put the MW in a bank of cabs that are 24*15*96. They hold a lot for only being 14.25" deep. We had just updated an electrical panel on the other side of the wall that wasn't moving. I can only imagine how much stuff you could store in a 24" pullout. They have pantry pullouts in various heights as I'm sure you know. Good luck and looks great.

Clueless's microwave inset in the pantry was more what I had in mind.

I know not everyone uses theirs the same, but I use my microwave when I'm cooking meals, so like to have it handy to the stove area. I defrost meats, steam veggies, heat chilled or canned side dishes, melt butter, etc., etc., so mine is on my stove run.

As for the last picture, I'd rather see 2 shelves on each side of the range, and have them not wrap the corner. I think 2 shelves, one above the other, would look like more of a planned design element, in addition to adding function, rather than just the plain functionality of one shelf stuck on the bare wall and wrapping around, looking more like you were filling the space with, forgive me, sort of an inexpensive option.

A recent thread got me back to thinking about this. I decided to SketchUp the Marcolo/Rhome/Dianalo idea of using one open shelf below a bank of uppers. The uppers are then raised up about 10" above the shelf. Could you take a gander and see what you think of this idea:

By the way, there is not enough room, although it may look like it, to put the MW to the left of the range.

Thanks once again for any help! A_D

to the right of sink-yes, but flanking the range hood-no.The reach into all your cabs becomes this higher elevation...the ones where you want a traditional reach are the corner set up and to the left of hood in my opinion. I think you'd like that combo to the right of sink though.Couldn't you reverse the microwave shelf and the plate/glass shelf??

Reaching is a non-issue. The open shelf is exactly the same height as the first shelf of a standard-height cabinet, except open. The top shelf is no higher than the high or stacked cab shown in the original layout.

I think this looks really great except you definitely need to bring more discipline to cab and shelf heights. If the shelf runs all the way around it shouldn't break for the MW. Do you really need to drop that shelf down there? If you do, the MW should go over in the corner, or get a shorter one. Also, I don't know if it's a Sketchup illusion but it now looks like the uppers pop up and down in height from the sink to range. Everything will need to line up better.

Side note, I think I'd put the faucet to the left of the sink, centered under the window.

I _really_ like the look of this.

I'm wondering whether your cabinet line offers an upper cabinet just a few inches taller to take advantage of the dead space above the cabs with this layout. I do love the shelf underneath and think it's a great design, but the top gap (unless you have vaulted ceilings) looks a bit small and awkward. Seems like using a taller cabinet would be win-win, better look and even more storage.

As far as marcolo's suggesting about moving the faucet left, I think a rectangular sink would loose function without the faucet centered. Instead, I think you could balance the faucet by putting something decorative and tall (e.g. a vase of long-stemmed flowers) in the area under the left window to balance out the faucet's height on the right.

the reach is a huge issue- to the left and right of hood will likely hold cooking ingredients...women are typically shorter than men ...it's not the reach to the open shelves, but into those cabs-now aligned higher and possibly when you are moving quickly in your prep this could be awkward-it's for the owner to evaluate this-it would be different access....the corner one would bother me the most and I'm tallish.

Angie,
You really DO have too much time on your hands. I thought of two things when looking at the beginning of this thread. One is, if you do put open shelves flanking the hood, a backsplash going to the ceiling might make a nice background to the shelves . The other thing was... How the hell is she going to keep that window clean? I hope that hood is professional/restaurant grade with the strength to suck your shirt off.

Hi, I like for the most part the sketchup on entry Thu, Sep 29, 11 at 13:38:

But, I hate that microwave where it is. Can you move it down to the right end and mount it under the cabinet? Maybe even make that cabinet or set of cabinets turn into a hutch (though it might look to heavy) But at the least mount is under the cab. I like the range wall as in this rendition. It will be hard to have that window/sink wall be as beautiful as it could be with that MICROWAVE mounted where it is. So at least a shelf (or not) and put that microwave under the uppers to the right of the sink. Then that sink wall will be stunning as a topless view.

btw, to me having all those extra shelves as shown in other renderings is too busy for my sense of your clean lined kitchen. I love your tall uppers with the glass. I love the idea of partial topless (don't take them all down please). I love the idea of keeping it trim and tidy, without the extra shelving.

Oh, and the idea (Marcolo I think) mentioned to space out those lights more could be nice. And try Marcolo's idea of placing the faucet to the left of the sink.

I agree with Marcolo...if you're going to do the shelf all the way around, the microwave should be even. What if you put it in the pantry area, but with a pull out shelf, underneath it? Kind of like the old fashioned bread boards...it could be pulled out when you're taking something hot out of the microwave, but slide back in, the rest of the time.

How does it look, if you have the shelf and upper cabinets, all the way around? Also, any storage in the upper cabinets (whether it's higher or not) is better than the 'no storage' with the shelf alone. Just my two cents :)

If you can't keep the microwave even, and even if you can, I'd follow the advice and move it to the far right. The MW in our last kitchen was situated similarly and it was OK. Better than taking what I'd deem valuable storage real estate next to the sink. Still think I'd prefer the mw built into the pantry, but I'm getting that that option doesn't have much appeal to you.

I agree with Kris that the faucet should be where it works best for the sink.

I do like this new look you're trying, except for the mw, as noted, and I'd still not wrap around the corner to the right of the stove for cleaner lines and look. But that's my opinion.

I assume that cooking ingredients you want to be able to grab on a regular basis from the stove area might be kept on those shelves, so then the reach thing is moot. If not, then a consideration.

To clarify...You've ordered the cabinets, but they haven't started building them yet? Or you've ordered cabinets, but the kitchen construction hasn't started yet?

Love the shelf under the cabinets all along the perimeter. Really wish I'd thought of it during my remodel. Corner shelves between stove and sink will be especially handy; you could even do them all the way up the wall for some heft without the overwhelmingness of cabinetry there (depending on your aesthetic desires, of course. My kitchen is a workspace and I don't see the point of hiding implements for matchy-matchy reasons. Shelves are just super handy when really cooking.)

I have a rectangular sink with faucet on the left, to balance out an off-kilter sink/window, and it's absolutely functional - perhaps because it's a larger faucet with great reach and a pullout. In fact it's quite useful because two folks can work in there at the same time when necessary.

Thanks, all. GW generosity continues to amaze me.

I started writing up a long response to the points raised, but I realize there is something I should do first, viz., show you some hard drawings. I had thought Sketchup was the right medium, because I viewed this issue as primarily aesthetic. However, we are getting into quantitative aspects. Therefore, I think it best to show you the cab drawings as planned now. I will try to write later with responses to the excellent suggestions made.

This is the "default" plan. There are a few changes that will be made regardless, but nothing major. The ceiling is really 101", so the cabs will be 43". There is a bank of 2x20" drawers that I am contemplating making 1x40" (except for the top ones). While I am generally happy with this layout, I am just trying to maximize airiness and aesthetics.

Will post again after lunch with responses to points raised.

Here is a plan view:

Here is the elevation of the range wall, with cab sizes:

Here is the sink wall and cab sizes:

and here is the pantry area:

Thanks so much for your consideration.

Thanks, all. A few answers and some info. I am not taking a position in this response -- just giving some background on the issues I am wrestling with.

In my Sketchup with the shelves below uppers (Friday, 2:12), the cabs were indeed hung at inconsistent heights ("operator error"). The cabs are custom and will really go to the ceiling (with a simple crown molding). The cabs have been ordered (i.e., a time slot has been reserved to build them), but construction is not going to commence for another few weeks yet. I still get to make changes.

Lowering the MW was intentional. Sometimes you see MW cabs dropped down 3" or so to put the MW at a more usable height (~15" above the counter). This was actually a factor in my wanting to explore this setup; I thought it may allow me to drop the MW without looking goofy. What I am hearing is that it only did half of that! ;-)

The sink window will have a two-panel casement. Thus, the faucet is placed where it is to be centered on the right-hand pane.

Yes, the MW placement is the nut that needs to be cracked. I agree it is not good where it is -- I just cannot find a better spot for it. Rhome, I actually love the MW-in-pantry idea, as long as it does not get rid of the pantry. And Lavender, I love the breadboard/hidey shelf idea. However, I am having trouble figuring out how to fit in the MW without ruining the pantry. Our pantry has, to the left of the fridge, twin pullouts that are 4' high x 11" wide, with two drawers below. To the right of the fridge, it is a shallow cab (9") that covers the whole side of the fridge, opening the other direction. (I really like this arrangement, BTW.)

If I were to make a MW cubbyhole to the left, I guess I would have to get rid of the drawers, lower and/or shorten the pullouts, and put the MW above the pullouts. Hmmm, that is a possibility; I think I will go play with a tape measure. (A MW drawer may sound like a better idea, but I only have 22" left of the fridge or else I lose the shallow pantry to the right.)

Let's turn now to putting the MW at the far right of the sink run. I have 40" between DW and wall. A MW will take up more than 20", right? Then if I put it in one of the cabs to the right of the DW, then I wlll have, say, a 24" and a 16" cab. I don't like that for aesthetic reasons. I think I would rather have it on the counter (which I DON'T want) than that.

Thanks for any more thoughts with that info in mind. I need to play with some of your suggestions with a tape measure and with Sketchup!

Always, A_D

It's highly possible I'm being dense, because it's a bad day, brainwise... I got confused about the uppers to the right of the dw and how things would change if you put the mw to the far right. You already have, in all the configurations, the mw under one door and 2 other doors. What is the problem with putting the microwave and it's one door to the far right, and the other 2 to it's left? Same cabinets, just arranged differently.

?

Rhome- I was thinking the same thing...the shelf with two uppers to the right of the sink, then the microwave (maybe with the books above) and then the wall.

Angie- If you used the books above the microwave, rather than a cabinet, you could have the microwave the same height as the shelf and bottom of the window...which is the height the microwave was shown, in earlier pictures. Maybe the books and a display shelf above? I think the straight linear lines, going horizontally around the room, really add to your space :)

I am confused about the confusion, too.

IMO the Fri, Oct 14, 11 at 2:12 picture is the clear winner--just move the micro and make sure the shelf is level all round the room. The MW goes either at the far left or in the pantry.

Rhome: You are not dense; rather, I neglected to articulate hidden aesthetic constraints!

I want the vertical sight lines of the uppers and lowers to match. That is why I have (unconsciously) held fast to the notion that, to the right of the DW, the uppers must have 2x20" doors.

Not sure I want to insist on keeping to that or not, but that was the reason.

I was thinking that might be it. The uppers are what you look at. You won't ever be at enough distance to really view both the uppers and lowers at once. It's a big difference between looking at elevation drawings and standing in the room. I understand your wish about matching uppers and lowers, but not sure it's worth holding onto in this case.

Marcolo's choice is a good one, if you can keep the shelving level...But I still don't see the need to have the mw right next to the sink, where glassware and dishes might be handier.

Marcolo: You wrote The MW goes either at the far left or in the pantry. Because I am considering it, can I ask "which far left"? I don't know if you mean to the left of the range (which I am now considering), or left side of the sink run, or where it is now (left of cabs).

Rhome. You are probably right, the kitchen is too small to see the upper/lower alignment. I am conflicted: if you are in the kitchen, you definitely won't see it. However, that will be what you see if you are in my DR, as I widened the doorway up to 48".

Lavender: I am in no way tied to that cab above the MW in my drawings. I can get rid of it or replace it by shelves, as you suggest. I'll give a few things a try.

Thanks!

The view of that section of cabinets from the dining room has to be at an angle. It'd be hard to judge if the tops match the bottoms, and I'm betting the drawers will kind of blend at that angle and distance, too. And if in the dining room, won't you be seated at a table that will likely block the view of base cabs?

I'm just guessing at the visual impact, but like I said, in this case, I wouldn't let it dictate the best choice. Just my opinion, and how I'd choose. You may have other priorities.

Oops, I meant far right. Long day. Just get that damn thing away from the sink. It's going to be in the way there, and way too visually prominent.

Rhome: You are right again, of course. At an angle, they won't line up even if they do line up, IFKWIM. Good thinking.

Marcolo: Thanks for the clarification after a long day.

Dear All: Thanks so much for your help. I don't know what I am going to do yet, but I have lots of ideas to play with.

I am going into about a week of "radio silence" as we drive back across the country. I likely won't be able to respond to anything until I return home. Sad to admit that I will miss my daily dose of GW!

Thanks always, A_D

A break away from thinking too much about one thing can be helpful. I've been thinking about a week of 'radio silence' myself, and I'm not even going anywhere. Enjoy the trip!

Angie- I can see that the upper cabinets would look better over the lower cabinets...when they're right above them, as shown in your illustrations. However, when you add the lower shelf, it breaks it up enough that I don't think you would notice the uppers and lowers not matching up.

Can you try drawing it with the shelf all the way around, uppers above, microwave all the way to the right (across from the pantry) and books/shelves above it. I think you might be pleasantly surprised :)

Dear everyone,
Well, I thought I would report on where we ended up. After mulling all the options, this is where we settled:

The hilarious thing is that this *IS* what Buehl first recommended, namely, a MW drawer next to the sink. I didn't want that at the time, mainly due to expense and having to give up half of a lower cab, but it really solves a lot of problems. Besides not finding a good upper in which to put the MW, we decided we really didn't want to be reaching into an upper, no matter which one, for the MW. And we did not want to give up the pantry. So we tortuously wound up at Buehl's first suggestion. Buehl: we are not worthy!

I started this thread to contemplate uppers, the topless look, and open shelves, and it wound up being a MW placement thread. It behooves me to at least report on our thoughts regarding the former. In short: we chickened out. We like the looks of open shelves, or one open shelf below normal uppers raised up a bit, but we were too conservative to actually do it.

Thanks, all!

great news. Everything about it is great news.

Looks great, I like the clean counter line. That MW is in a nice spot.

Looks like a very functional and balanced layout.

Our former kitchen was almost "topless".
Although I love the look -- especially the cool unfitted vibe --
you just can't beat tried-and-true wall cabinets
for functional "point of use" storage.

We also went through struggle
to find a functional/aesthetic location for the microwave --
amazing how much trouble that one appliance
can make when designing a kitchen.

Congrats on working it all out for a beautiful kitchen plan.

looks great...you've really looked at all the options..you can really live with yourself on that point, and now enjoy the kitchen you'll have. Amazing how you have to wrestle with yourself a bit to get a plan you can go forward with.

Thanks, D-ro, enduring, Francoise, and Herb. I am happy with this. I appreciate your comments.

I forgot to mention that, as part of the decision process, I constructed fake "uppers" from cardboard boxes, and hung them on the walls. I also used tables and sawhorses to simulate countertops. I could then swap upper locations around easily, going back and forth between the layouts posted, say, on Wed, Sep 28, 11 at 19:40 and Thu, Sep 29, 11 at 13:38. This made it easy to sort out issues like possible crowding of the big window, the overall airiness of the kitchen, lights in the sink area, and the difficulty of reaching above the shoulders into the upper cabs with a laden soup bowl. Therefore, I am more confident in this arrangement than I was when only relying on Sketchup.

Francoise, you are so right about how hard MW placement is. After this struggle, I have concluded that chest-high is the only really good placement; this either means in the middle of a tall cab (like CluelessinCo) or hanging below un upper (like someone posted recently... Dianalo? remodelFLA?). I didn't want to give up the pantry to do the former or effectively give up the counterspace to do the latter, so the drawer was the next-best alternative. Funny that I never really understood that about MWs before.

The uppers look great, much more balanced and they'll hold a lot of storage. I like it, with maybe one suggestion. It's just me, but are you sure you don't want to center your sink, under the big window and pendants? It seems like your best view will be standing between the sink and microwave.

Have you thought about sliding the sink to the left (centered under the window) moving the dishwasher over as well...and putting the microwave drawer on the other side? It would be closer to the pantry and that part of the counter would make an excellent snack center/baking area. This would leave the area between the sink and range as prep space, while you're cooking...rather than someone entering that area, trying to microwave something.

I know you like the lower cabinets balanced with the upper ones, but that won't really be the case with the dishwasher...and I think the pendants being balanced over the sink will be more important. Just my two cents :)

Dear Lavender,
You keep making nice suggestions, and, for one reason or another, I wind up not using them. I hope you don't start to feel me rude! I really do listen. I came close to using your MW-to-the-right idea, but didn't for the reasons stated above.

There are two principal reasons I don't want to center the sink. First, the window is actually a double casement; therefore, if I center the sink on the window, you wind up looking at the thick center stile. Second, I want a decent amount of prep space between range and sink. My arrangement gives 42" to the corner. If I centered the sink, I only get 27". If you mock these two up, even though they differ only by 15", they feel much different.

Here is the same picture with the casement put in:

and here is one with people (people more glamorous than us, sadly!):

I missed the casement windows...I thought it was all one big window. That makes a lot more sense :)

Now, for another question you've probably already answered...why three pendants, rather than two or one fixture with two globes/shades? Just wondered if it would be better to have light directly over the sink?

My goal was to have the sink flanked by two lights, so that work would never be in shadow. Since the sink is not centered on the window, I thought the best way to do that was 3 lights, one centered on window, one on right side of sink, the other symmetrical with that.

That makes sense...I didn't think about an overhead light causing a shadow :)