Its hard to read your graph paper. Perhaps go over the lines with a pen or a fine line sharpie.

Hm. The printed plan you post is workable, Jennifer. You gave yourself a nice workspace, and 9" deep shelves down that long wall (you could use the depth of the wall for it) would hold an amazing amount.

1. To get the issue out of the way, I guess, what are the functional problems in moving the powder room to the other end, opposite the basement stair? Not tearing out the dining room wall--just getting the interior traffic confined to one end? And then devoting the entire rest of the space to cooking?

2. In either case, why not put a door to the back where you say there should always have been one? Would it open to the play area? Would access to the play area affect where the best place for the powder room was? I.e., lots of visits from the children playing outside? Or would it be more efficiently located at the other end of the room anyway?

Answers on that first one now might save you from repeated suggestions to move it through the life of the thread.

Making the narrow cabinet by the refrigerator would be one of those custom irregularities that, hopefully, their owners love even though others advise against. My usual suggestion--mock it up in real size, cut-down refrigerator box looming to your left, etc, etc, and see for yourself what you would gain. I like the "private" look to the corner, but I'm short and would not be able to access much above without some such device. That lower cabinet might be a good place for vertical storage, baking sheets, etc.

Sorry. The second hand drawn plan is the same as the architect drawing. The only difference is the shallow cab perpindicular to the frig.

We cannot afford the major structural changes involved with moving the powder room and taking down the drm wall.

We are taking out the existing kitchen becuase 1. the 21" clearance to the basement/side door is unworkable and unsafe (nt to code). 2. the powder room opening has proven no longer workable as the kids have gotten older and everyone wants privacy and it interupts the kitchen 3. The electricity supply is nonfunctioning (not to code). Since the current kitchen has to be ripped out to do these things, we want to reorganise the kitchen to improve function and flow.

Thanks for feed back on shallow pantry.

Rosie, the only play space outside is on the driveway side of the house. The current side door leads to a 9' deep side yard with garbage cans, grill etc. Then you walk around the back of the house to the play set, table, and out to the driveway. We have 24' on the driveway side of the house, including the driveway. it is where the kids do bubbles, chalk, ride bikes and scooters. We also find a lot of "emergency" runs into the house after long car rides. So the bathroom where it is currently located actually works well for our overall set up when we can eventually replace the side window with a side door. Also, the pr is "away" from the drm doorway. In the other corner, it would be more visible from the drm.

By keeping the current pr location we do not have to pay to move the pr and we do not have to pay to make major gas/plumbing changes to the kitchen.

Here is the view from my sink.

I just want to flip the doorway to the other side of the pr and make better use of the no man's island alcove.

Yes, that is where we keep the pogo stick!

I can't really determine where your side door outside is? Can you move the basement stairway entrance to open into the hallway to the living/dining room. Given that is an internal wall, it is likely not load bearing. If the basement isn't finished the satirs can easily be reconfigured.

Here is where all the cooking magic happens. Note the pogo stick storage to the left and then the pr doorway.

And the range run

The left corner is the sink run and to the right is 21" to the basement stairwell.

Lannegreene, that is a great suggestion. Unfortunately, that will not work. Our house is set up like an old row house, set above grade by about 4' and with a railcar set up of the interior rooms. The stairwells are stacked on the side. The stairs to the upstairs are above the basement stairs. There is no interior hallway on the first floor. The front door opens into the lvrm which has a wide opening into the drm which then opens through a 30" doorway into the kitchen.

The side door is down 4 stairs from the kitchen. So you walk in the side door to a very small landing, then walk up 4 stairs into the kitchen, and turn the corner and you are in my drm. My dinning room is only about 12-13' wide because the stairway to the 2nd floor is in the drm, above the basement stairwell.

21" opening to pass to the basement stairwell. (see drm through the drm doorway with a glimpse of the 2nd flr stairwell to the right)

6'4" 200lb DH carried my DD2 who just broke her arm up through this narrow passage way.

This is the view from the kitchen through to the front of my house. The stairwell to the 2nd floor starts just past the plant.

Nice pictures...lovely home :)

I think what you've done will work well, with your existing constraints. It gives you a nice U-shape work area and more (but shallow) pantry storage. It also gives you the possibility of a door to the outside, at some point.

However, if you decide to move the powder room (unexpected issues during remodel, etc.) here's another idea. This would give you more space at the top of the stairs and allow for a bigger doorway. {{gwi:1932743}}From Farmhouse plans

Something like this for the sink (with range on other side)... {{gwi:1924170}}From Farmhouse plans

Bringing the current powder room up to code may be more expensive than you think. At that point, you're not talking much more to just move it and start fresh. If you've got a basement, moving plumbing isn't nearly as expensive and difficult as if you are on a slab. I'd get a contractor to quote you bringing the current one up to code vs. just moving it before I proceeded with any more planning. And you have to look at the gain vs. the expense. I think it'd be worth it for sure, because it gives you everything you need, including the door to the exterior.

Lavender_lass that is a nice layout. I love picts of beautiful kitchens. We would consider something like that. Putting the bathroom in that corner stacks the bathrooms. It creates a nice landing at the top of the stairs.

But, the architect told us that our current pr seems up to code. We also had a contractor friend look at the job and he thought the pr is fine. So unless we have to do major work on the pr, we are going to leave it and just redo the pr door. But you never know what you discover when you start to do work in an old house.

Hollysprings, that is exactly our biggest concern. Once you start doing some work, other work and expenses crop up. We do believe our current pr is up to code. The obvious problems are in our kitchen. But you are right: you just never know what you will find. We expect to spend far more on plumbing, electrical, and "surprise" costs than the kitchen finishes.

If we leave the pr where it is we should/ hope to still be ale to add a driveway side door where the side window is. We just cant afford to do it now. Because we are about 3-4' above grade we would have to add a side deck and that requires special approval because as of two years ago we are now in a special storm water zone.... $$$

Jennifer- I can see why you're hesitant to change too much...once you find an issue, you have to fix it! If it's going to be that difficult to get the side door, what if you do a mini-remodel, for now?

Get the wiring upgraded, maybe replace the kitchen window and make a few small cabinetry changes...and move the powder room door. If you leave the fridge in pretty much the same place, you could put the microwave on the other side and add some pantry storage. Maybe a shallow pantry or bookcases for cookbooks, on side closest to the dining room. {{gwi:1932744}}From Farmhouse plans

Sorry, long day! LOL I meant shallow pantry or shelves on the side of the fridge, closest to the dining room doorway.

I know it's a small kitchen, but if it's not too expensive, what about a little bar/prep sink on the end of the fridge run, by the little window? Great place for kids to make lunches and with the microwave, little sink and small trash under...they'd have their own little snack/lunch area :)

Lavender_lass. Thank you! Your plan illustrated what I have been trying to explain to my husband for 7 yrs. Without water and electric, a counter over there will just look like:

Would you prefer this latest plan to the shallow pantries and u kitchen with the frig in the spot where the current pr doorway is?

I love the idea of a prep space like in your plan, with a real spot for the mw. That is a huge plus! My concerns are: 1. if we were able to add that side door would I then have to just reconfigure this space again because then that hallway becomes too congested with entrance traffic etc? 2. I am concerned about replicating food prep in front of the pr. My husband's big pet peeve is the pr open into the kitchen. 3. I am concerned about kids running to the potty and hitting the open frig door. I can actually picture my 4 yr old running to the potty, screaming I gotta go, just as someone opens the frig door. Splat! "Mom it was an accident," double entendre intended.

I very much appreciate this input. Its a small kitchen. We have a limited budget. There are compromises. I just have to figure out which ones to make.

Jennifer- They have soft wall technology in Nascar now...maybe soft door technology, for the fridge? :)

Seriously, I think the door to the side would be nice, but with the fridge wall (in your earlier plan) and pantry wall...I think it would be pretty tight.

If it were me (and I don't have kids, just nieces/nephews) I'd like the second area for snacks. This would keep them out of my way, when I'm cooking and give them a space for their stuff. The kids love to help (when they come out to the farm) but we have a galley kitchen and there really isn't a good spot for them. That's one thing I want to change, when/if I remodel!

Maybe plan on a five year remodel, for now...and then when/if you have more money...you could do a more extensive remodel and add the door, deck, etc. at the same time.

I don't think it's a big deal with prep by the powder room. It's a secondary prep...and you've had the doorway into your main kitchen area for some time. At least this would be a little more private.

Are you planning to replace all the cabinets with this remodel? Can you work with what you have and upgrade the electrical? Sorry, if I missed this above, but I think your kitchen is really cute...very charming. If you could move the microwave, powder room door and add the little prep sink...would you be able to work with the main work area 'as is' with some upgrades?

I do really like the idea of the 2d prep area. And I agree that the proximity to the pr is less in your face than as the pr is currently configured. I just want the pr to be "out" of my kitchen as much as possible. And having the frig on the other side of the potty higway is a worry. We have that situation now. It really impeads our flow. Sorry. Its late here. The jokes are just horrible.

Anyway, we are approaching this overall project as you suggest. One functional upgrade now, which we can't really put off much longer. And in the near future we'll do a second upgrade.

I had 3 main reasons/ goals for the u shaped kitchen plan. Though I agree the u kitchen is a tight plan. 1. bring the frig into the working part of the kitchen. With us 5 and lots of visitors our pr sees a lot of action. If we add a driveway side door, that little walkway past the pr will see even more action. That door would become the primary door that the family will use. That is a lot of traffic to dodge to get to the frig. All that traffic needs to dodge the frig, which also sees a lot of action. 2. Gain kid assessable storage along the drm/ kitch wall for back packs, lunch boxes, school supplies, kid snacks, etc in shallow pantries. 3. Create "separation" for pr from the kitchen.

The biggest downside to the u shaped kitchen plan compared to your plan is it doesn't have a lot of counter space or a second prep spot. mCould we have an 18"x18" butcher block in the center of the kitchen? (your plan also has a nice mw spot. we aren't heavy mw users. That too could change as kids do more in the kitchen.)

I like the look of my kicthen. It is cute. It feels homey. But the cabinets in the main part of the kitchen dont work well in the space. I have to replace them anyway. For example, there is a 33" sink base w a 20" sink. The plumbing comes up on one side, jogs across the center, and the sink hangs down on the other side. This leaves very little room for storage. The bottom corner cab, between the dw and the range run, has only a 9" - 9" opening. The old dw does not sit right in its space anymore and it sticks out a bit crooked so that corner cab swing open door doesnt open easily. With no gadget to help get the stuff out of the cab, I have to send a wee little one down and in to retrieve stuff. And my wee ones are getting bigger so that solution will not last. It is like a comedy of errors so at least we are laughing!

We actually prep okay with our limited counter space right now, if its DH and I or one of us with a kid or 2 helping. (the 2 dogs under foot are another story.) Of course that will all change when all 3 kids try to make lunch at the same time. Right now we have about 3' between the sink and the corner of the range run and then about 20" of counter from corner to range. This has to change a bit. The end of the range run leaves only 21" to pass through to reach the basement stairwell. I can't just take out the end cab bc the range doesnt leave a 36" clearance. Laughing all the way!

Fyi we hope to donate the cabs and granite.

Rosie, I am not tall either. But, my DH is a big guy. I was hoping to create some space for him by the frig w a shallow cab. We did a real life mock up before I drew it up. I have to see and feel things in 3d. It worked for us.

My big concern is exactly what you said: we would find it useful and everyone else would find it odd. We will test some more to see if its useful enough to be okay being odd. Thanks again for the input.

Small kitchens with cross traffic are always an opportunity for "creativity", aren't they! Here's a different thought:

Turn the PR door as planned. Put a door opposite into the DR.

Now you can use the space all the way to the DR wall for cabinets, cooking, fridge. It could be open to the new little "hallway", or closed off. Since the PR is down a little hallway, it's not so visible from the DR (esp if you put a spring-loaded door on it giggle!)

Eventually you can replace the little window with a door, so the whole house has better access to the outside without tromping through the kitchen.

I thought of this on 3 cups of coffee, so the brain is probably swirling in impossible directions, but maybe?

Might have already been addressed. Put the hinge for the PR door near the sink. Then when the door is part open less chance of viewing the toilet.

Seeing the pictures, I am concerned the new entry way will be too tight if the fridge remains in it's current location, although if it works I like Lavender's plan.

I'm going to say what I know you already know and probably don't want to hear. And no judgement, I've totally been there.

Clean up the junk. Your kitchen will never be big and moving things around and then moving the clutter back into it will only make you frustrated that you spent the money and didn't really improve anything. And I know it is hard with the kids and their stuff. I'm a total clutter bug. There are still parts of my home that look like that - the desk I am currently sitting at in our office, for example. But my new kitchen is relatively clutter free.

Get ALL of that stuff off those counters, off the floor and off the walls. In fact, I suggest taking everything out of the cabinets and deciding what must be kept and find a new place for it now.

Then go ahead and take those cabs out of there. See what you've got. Try and move into that space. Imagine a door to the bathroom there. Imagine a door to the outside there. Maybe even hang a few hooks on the wall for the kids to hang jackets. Is it feasible? How is it with the fridge there? Does the fridge need to be moved in order for the space to be functional?

If you absolutely can't move that bathroom, I agree that you do need to move that door. It's hard to tell by looking at what you've currently got how much of a log jam it will be with the door switched. Going in steps and stages might be the best idea with this space.

Controlfreakecs. That is lol hilarious! I agree. I told my DH that someone was gong to look at the photos and call one of those hoarding intervention shows. I am depsarate for help so I snapped photos mid-clean out. We are doing exactly what you suggest, taking all the stuff out of the ktchen and doing a massive clean out. That is why the kicthen is a total and complete wreck. We are cleaning out so we can see about getting our cabs donated. They are in nice shape and its such a waste if they are not repurposed.

The wall-to-wall space in the alcove is 5'. I fear keeping the frig in its current location and moving the pr door into the alcove creates a new problem,mthough I too liked Lavender's plan. We struggle now with traffic past the frig and into the alcove. The open door frig will stop traffic into and out of the pr after we move the pr door.mThe traffic in that little spot would get more jammed if/when we replace the window with an exterior door. Also, according to my architect, even if we don't add a door, that short passage past the frig would count as a hallway and we need 36" clearance. They probably wouldnt count the handles in the frig, but with the handles my frig is 27" deep.... We thought of framing a door or pocket door there to get by the 36" requirement. But that created other headaches and was not viable.

That is why I thought about tall shallow pantry cabinets along the wall. I have seen so many nice kitchens here that have made great use of similar space.

Debrak2008: brillant! It is a simple but fantastic idea. Thank you. That could help. We are going to add a pr fan too.

Bpathome: thanks for the idea. I am meeting with more contractors this week to see what is possible. We have an approx 2 1/2- 3" height dfference from the kitchen and the drm/living room. The kitchen floor is raised a few inches by a thick concrete base for a tile floor. This adds a twist to dealing with the kitchen openings. Luckily my 92 yr old gran can manage the curb with her walker.

If you are getting a fan, I recommend a movement sensor fan. When we had a switch fan no one used it. No one thought their visit to the bathroom required its use. Now we have a sensor activated fan in each bathroom and it does its job.

While the fan are fairly quiet they do add a little background noise that can be a good thing.

I have a bathroom off my kitchen so I can relate.

Are you getting a new refrigerator? Would a counter depth help?

Edited to add: Great idea from LL. I have a trio and love it.

This post was edited by debrak2008 on Sat, Aug 3, 13 at 14:30

I just realized...your current fridge is the problem, but I drew (if you can tell on that little picture LOL) an armoire style fridge. If you could replace the fridge with an armoire style, there would be half as wide a door, blocking your traffic.

Also, find out exactly how and when you can put that side door in. Will it ever be possible or is it going to be a relatively easy swap? If you don't think this is going to happen in the next five years, plan for it in the next remodel. I would do what works best for you, right now :)

Jennifer- I'm really not trying to talk you into one idea or the other...they both have good points. I just wanted to point out the shortcomings of my own kitchen. I do not have a good second area for people to work. So, no place for people to make a salad or chop veggies, without being in my way, while I cook.

So, we usually have family dinners at my Mom's house...but if we are able to get a more functional kitchen and larger dining area, I'd like to start having parties at our place :)

Lavender_lass, i very much appreciate your input. There is no right answer, as you know. I am trying to find the best solution with how my household (dis)functions, within our budget, within reason for eventual resale.

I would try to find another ding and dent special (thats how i got my current frig) if the new frig solved all of my issues (kitchen issues)! But even with that small space saving on the open door depth I still have to think about the person standing in front of the frig looking for cheese sticks, or was it carrots, or yogurt or something .... And its only 5' deep space. I guess it also comes down to my experience now. Currently, I have the traffic to the potty interupting my frig access and its not ideal. Add in traffic from an exterior door eventually .... I just dont know if the gain is worth it for how we cook/live etc.

We had a 36" 2dr, cd frig. It didnt work well for us ( and then it just didnt work). The frig is installed more than a foot away from the drm drwy bc of our fat old trim and light switches. As a result, the 36" frig was in the alcove area more than our current 30" frig. It was about 29" deep with handles (and about 27" w/o handles.) You felt that perpindicular wall in your back when you stood you in front of the frig even with the door closed. With the door open it did take up less space than our current frig. With the door open, the current frig, its about 52" deep. The other was about 44" deep with the door open. Yes, 8" is a lot I agree. But we were 6" more into that tight alcove space so it didnt feel like 8" of space. My 6'4 DH took up more space in front of the old frig too bc he would lean back on the wall. Fyi, our current 30" frig holds more stuff than the old frig. Go figure!

Fyi, I loved making raviolis with my grandparents when i was a kid. They had less than 2' of counter space between the sink and their range top (the only counternspace). And they had tiny kitchen table jammed in the kitchen with 3 chairs around. If you sat in a chair you blocked the frig or their 1 cabinet from opening all the way. But, it was always warm and smelled delicious.

The reason I am trying to be thoughtful about my kitchen redo is that I want a simple space that will allow me to have those memories with my kids: laughing, learning, getting messy, being close, and making good food together. I know its so corny. But I bet thats what your nieces/nephews like about helping you too.

Fyi: the window to exterior door change is functionally rather easy (unless of course there is a disaster hiding in the wall below the window which is possible). When we purchased our house, 7 yrs ago, we got approval from the archtectural review board. So we believe we would get approval from the town again. And we previously bid the job. It was rather straight forward. We just couldn't afford it 7 years ago. And we still can't. The door is expensive to do because of the added expense of the deck/porch that we need since we are 3-4' above grade. Recently, the town created a new special storm water zone and we just found out that we are in it. There are added regulatory concerns and expenses as a result. It is a project that we would like to do. My poor DH hates getting into and out of our house. Luckily, he is happy after he gets in and out.

debrak2008: motion sensor fan. Exactly. Thanks for the tip.

Jennifer, exactly how long is the wall the fridge is currently on? I can't make out all the measurements. Don't include the moldings, that is part of the doorway. I also see there is a light switch there that I assume cannot be covered by the fridge. How far from the molding is it?

Honestly, I think your plan is pretty good. I think I would only put the shallow pantry in the kitchen proper - not in front of the new PR door. I couldn't tell where you planned to start them in you previous comments. Across from the PR, I'd put hooks on the wall and make it a bit of a mudroom space. You'll be glad for it later.

Controlfreakecs: thanks for your input. We were hoping/planning on tall shallow cabs in the main kitchen area. I hope to add at least 3' of storage. We would leave the wall opposite the pr empty other than hooks for budget reason. Then we will live with the space and give ourselves time to work on a side door plan/budget. In the current architects plan, the entire wall is blank. I think he was skeptical of my shallow pantry idea.

The kicth/drm wall is 94", exclusive of trim. To clear the light switch, things need to be 4" from the doorway. That leaves 90." We have a 30" frig against the switch plate now. The pr wall opposite is 57" long. So right now the pr wall is not behind/in front of the frig. The pr wall was in front/behind of the 36" frig and that really jammed the space.

If I wanted to reclaim the 4" by moving the light switch, I do have a 11" wide wall between the drm entry and the basement stair entry into the kicthen. But, there is no wiring for the kitchen in that small wall. So I would have to open another wall etc. if the electrician tells me that the move is no trouble and relatvely inexpensive, then we will gain 4".

Did that make sense?

Lavender_lass: Just like you, no one (including us) wanted us to host the big family events bc we have the smallest place. By far! But I am the only person who really cooks! So after years of preping and cooking everything here, transporting it there, and then cooking and reheating.... I finally had enough. I am just a SAHM, not a chef or caterer.

Last year we bought a big old dinning room table at an auction. With the leaves in its almost 10' long! So now we've hosted a couple of 20+ people gatherings. We push into the lvrm. We add folding tables and chairs. People have to double up on the piano bench, etc. As long as I keep all 6 of my big and growing bigger nephews well fed, it all works out.