I'm not from that part of the country but $4K seems like a whopping fee compared to your overall cabinet budget. Is she the only game in town? I believe most cabinet places will draw up kitchen plans for you at no charge, and only charge you if you want to take those plans somewhere else... so is there another place where you can get a competing quote/design?

No experience on the Kahle vs. Christiana question...

I live in your general area and have also been cabinet shopping. To know if your $25,000 budget is adequate I would need to know your design to see how much cabinetry you need. Also you probably will not be able to get too fancy with the finish- antiquing or glazing might put you over the top. I found every place I went did their own design at no charge. If you like the design she did I am sure you could give another company a verbal description of her design and go from there. If you got involved with someone who says up front you owe me a design fee if you don;t go with my cabinets she's got you. I have not seen that from any kitchen/bath shop. I have seen that with landscape design at nurseries.

I'm not sure if I understand where you are right now -- it sounds like you are deciding whether to have this person draw up a design for you and have not agreed to anything. I have to agree that my experiences were that any place I talked to would draw up an initial design concept without charge. In my case at least, that was done off of measurements I provided and might or might not reflect most of the things we talked about wanting or needing. It will not be your final kitchen plan --it's just a working concept, something you can both point to and make sure you are talking in the same language. If you like what you see or feel you have enough that you want to proceed (typically meaning this person will also supply or work with the builder of the cabinets you want), then you pay a fee for a design you will own.

Most of the fees I encountered were $500-1000-1500, and these were dealing with cabinets bids in the range you are looking at to double that. I've heard of them in the $2000-2500 range, but that seems out of whack with tour cabinet budget. I got a number of free drawings (4, I think) but only paid for one set of final drawings. Our fee was less than 2% of our cabinet order and you're talking 12-16%. Maybe you would get more than I did, but just for a design it sounds like a lot.

I have never heard of either brand of cabinets, so I can't help you there. You will have access to some brands I didn't down here, as well as local custom builders. I went with a mix of Brookhaven and Woodmode and you could certainly get the quality you want with them. I'd suggest looking at as much as you can and try to get some of those free concept drawings to see not only if the designer has the same kind of vision you do but how well you work together when you talk about them. I would only pay a fee for further plans when you are certain or at least pretty sure you are ready to lock in with a person and at least a rough plan. I would not pay $3-4000 for a first idea.

I agree that fee sounds very high. Where in CNJ are you? I'm in Hunterdon County & was able to get custom from a PA cabinetmaker. We paid $11k including install for 18 cabs, including a pantry cab. We didn't go crazy on extras or finishes, but $25k would get you a lot. They also did free design.
I've never heard of the 2 cabinet brands you mention.

Good luck!

I would not be paying a $4000 fee for kitchen design unless your kitchen designer is some famous and wonderful KD and even then that seems high. The design fees for blue prints for our whole house from a residential design firm didn't cost that much!

As far as cabinets, there is no question that if I were you, I would get custom cabinets since you are close enough to PA to do it. My cabinet maker is great and will go to Central NJ. His cabinets are absolutely gorgeous (solid wood, dove tail construction, etc.) and his CAD drawings are wonderful (and don't cost extra) and his price was extremely reasonable- your $25,000 will go very far. I know at least a few other people on here have used them and been happy.

Dutch Wood Kitchens
1317 Hilltop Road
Myerstown, PA 17067-1760
(717) 933-5133

Christiana is very high end, if I remember correctly.

Personally, I think the FINISH is the most important and what sets apart the manufacturers. You can upgrade construction in most lines! And also what sets apart factory finish from cabinetmakers. There are very few small shops that can compare to a Christiana or P&F finish.

Unless you have a small kitchen, Christiana will put you over the $12K budget, I would guess. A small kitchen in P&F that I recently quoted was $12K....Wood-Mode was $18K from another dealer...and I think Christiana quotes out closer to Wood-Mode if not higher.

In order to speculate, we'd need to know more info: kitchen size (or number of cabinets), door style and if it's either stain or paint.

If you love this designer's work....will the design fee go towards the cabinets? For that amount, I would assume so.

Is there any way she can ballpark the two lines for you? Then you can decide if you want to pay the design fee.

I am looking at Christiana too...and the designer fee is free if you buy their line.....I'm considering the Eco line.

For the link below I have 18 cabinets, quoted at $24k for Christiana. Not sure if all of my quotes includes inserts, and molding, etc, so comparing is tough. Rest of my quotes are similar...Teddy Wood, KountryKraft.

Looking at a few other companies, but yes, I think the finish on manufactured cabinets holds up longer....not so with custom local.

Here is a link that might be useful: Kitchen with 18 cabinets

I think finish, build quality and durability varies with the company, and custom locals can and do produce very high end cabinetry for less than mass produced sometimes. I would not hesitate to include local craftsmen in my research, though I would not go with "shade tree" cabinet makers for my kitchen. Don't know beagles's cabinet maker as I'm not in her area, but I have read through many of her posts so would get a quote. No matter who you go with, check their installations in person.

I would not pay that KD fee, unless it included project management. Even then, I'd pass.

Good luck!

Kahles' is in Pa and fairly high end. I looked at them too. The place linked above in Myerstown does not seem to have many door styles. Since I am still taking bids I checked out that brochure and don't see my door so they wouldn't be an option.

I live on Long Island and I think $4,000 is quite high for design. If its not credited towards a cabinet purchase, I would not consider paying that fee. I have been dealing with several KD in an effort to get prices, and generally, its hit or miss on whether they can do something better than you came up with on your own. In fact, I find that from reading GW, I am more knowledgeable about aisle widths and seating space than some KD's. And they don't want to endorse GW ideas of mostly drawers because they make alot of $ on roll outs.

I'd put that money towards cabinets and forget the high end designer who gets a fee and probably gets a commission as well, so you pay double. Instead, find someone good who is motivated by commission alone. I've found it difficult to get prices (even price ranges) from cabinet shops, so it is certainly frustrating to "shop around." Good Luck.

The fee is not out of line for a medium high end kitchen. Really. A high end kitchen would be much more. 10K & upwards. But it does not match your stated budget. For heirloom furniture quality cabinets you will be looking at a pretty high cabinet budget and 25K doesn't go very far. I think you may need to upgrade your budget or downgrade your requirements. And that is the message that this designer is trying to tell you without coming right out and telling you that you're not being realistic.

GreenAcresAli, they will do any door you want. They are custom. My door is not one of the ones on the brochure, I designed and told them exactly what I wanted, combining pieces and edge styles and features from like 4 different doors and they made up a sample door for me with my paint color selection (also a custom color) so I could see exactly what I would get.

It sounds like your choices are to either pay the fee & move on OR go with your KD & her cabinets. I.e., even if another cabinetmaker/salesperson draws you up a (free) design, you will still have to pay your current KD her fee (which, IMHO, is very, very high...unless she's spent a lot of hours (>100?) on your design). If you go with the current KD, her "fee" is waived (or deducted from your cabinet order).

You do not have the option of not paying her fee and moving on...

Is this correct?

May I suggest you at least post your layout here to see if you're getting a good layout from her? If not, will your KD continue to draw up plans for you?

The layout will give us an idea of how many cabinets you're getting (as well as a "sanity check" of your KD's design).

Cabinets...I cannot give an opinion on the two lines as this is the first time I've heard of either of them. However, I think a $25K budget for cabinets would probably be sufficient for at least a medium-sized kitchen and semi-custom (as opposed to custom) cabinets. IIRC, mine were 27K with a mix of Omega Dynasty (most) & Omega Custom, quite a bit of customization, and both a wood (cherry) and finish (glaze) upgrade. This was in late-2007/early-2008 when remodeling was still at its peak.

BTW...you're probably not receiving emails of follow-up postings, even though you checked the box requesting them. This is b/c you don't have the email option turned on in your profile. See the "Read Me" thread for more information. Scroll down to the post with the subject "Getting Emails Sent To You...3-step Process".

(This thread also contains information on how to post pictures and how to ask for layout help...see the relevant topics on the thread.)

Here is a link that might be useful: New To Kitchens? Posting Pics? Read Me!

call design line kitchens in sea girt. ask for tony, tell him what you want and he will draw up a plan for you. for free. tell him your concerns with price and see what he can do. i know many people who have had kitchens done by them and have heard no complaints.

do your KDs manufactured cabs include drawer and cabinet inserts? your quote from design line will. there will be no hidden costs. i often wonder why anyone would go with a manufacturers line over custom. there is simply no better resource. GL!

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Thanks everyone and also buehl, email has been turned on. The quote of cabinets from Kuhle and Christiana, ranged from $21K-25K, this included the designers fee. However, the KD will not give me a designer's fee just yet - KD has to calculate time spend on the detailed drawings, etc. So, in the meantime, I have contacted local GC who has his own wood shop and have been carousing this forum, from "Crowne Point" to Best Cabinets, Chicago, to even an Amish workshop, my mother in law used to make a kitchen table to the local PA dutchfarm market who sold us our shed last week.

The KD took all three design proposals with her. So with the design in my head, I learned EXCEL today with the help of our friends on the forum. Took 2 hours to figure out how to change cell size, but once I got into the hang of it, I was able to make a 2D drawing. Figuring scale was a pain since I am NO MATH genius and the drawing printed out small ( 1/2 a page )

Please keep the suggestions coming. We are learning more and more each day.

BTW, planned total budget to include new appliances,(buying a second 30 " stove, and a dishwasher) and doing all the GC work ourselves hopefully around $35K. Leaving backsplash till later, but will have to figure in cost of counter tops (granite vs. soapstone ) and using linoleum on the floor ( soft on the feet ).

Size of Kitchen is 9 ft x 14 ft with a nook area of 68" x 60" and total counter space 32 sq feet ( or 16 linear feet) , Hopefully, once my hubby fine tunes my excel drawings on Excel, then I can post the plans

Thanks!

I used Dutch Wood and was extremely happy with the entire experience and would not hesitate to use them again. As beagles has said they can do ANYTHING you want. Given them a photo/drawing and they will make it. During the entire process they never said NO. This is a family run business and they take care to do is so you are happy. The installation crew (son of the owner)are craftsmen, the attention to detail was just amazing.

I can not say enough good things about our experience with Dutch Wood. No voice mail, they returned calls, when they said they would have something to me they did.

Hi, i am now considering Crystal Cabinets [checked Design Line in Sea Girt, but that is NJ, and I am in MD]. The Design Line cabinets are gorgeous!

Crystal has a promotion until October 2011--and they are my second choice after Christiana. Also, they have a new Lux finish that I am going to try to see in person this week. If it is all that the advertising is about, then I might be working with Crystal. The Christiana finish was top notch, so that was my first choice.

PROMOTION DETAILS.
◦Free Highlight or Glazing on all Crystal product lines (Crystal, Quest, Encore and Keyline). Excludes Rub-thru, Brushing and CPS.
◦Free upgrade to Inset styling in Crystal and Keyline.
◦Free upgrade Cherry wood all Crystal product lines. Excludes FSC cherry.

Happy Labor Day.

After meeting with 2 architecture firms, one contruction company, one exclusive KD, and a KD with our local building supply company, I have one kitchen design to show for it all. EVERYONE WANTS $$$$ FOR A KITCHEN DESIGN or to sign a binding contract before there is a design.

Thanks to all the previous advise to my original post. I will be heading out to Dutchwood, in the middle of the month.

So now that I have figured out Photobucket, here are my pictures of my current kitchen and the ONE plan I have.

So far, we are keeping our current range and refrigerator, a 30 inch propane gas Frigidaire Gallery range, and our 36" side by side GE Profile fridge.

New purchases, 1. 27 " electric single wall oven that will sit in a 30 " base cabinet
2. 30 " over the range microwave , that will sit in a cabinet above the single wall oven
3. Vent hood
4. Dishwasher _ Miele

Our current kitchen does not have a vent. So we will move the range to other side of the kitchen where there appears to have been a wall vent many moons ago.

We are restricted in space and budget, so we are not moving any walls ( we want to respect the original design of the home ).

We currently have a breakfast nook that hubbie SO wants to keep - but I feel that it closes off the kitchen. So there is a bit of hefty debate where and how to design this "nook". The built in china cabinet will stay.

We also have two radiators currently in corner cabinets as you can see in the pictures ( cab doors are open ) and one radiator ( hot water heated by oil ) underneath nook table. We will replace the two radiators with toe kick fan heating things ( I forget the name )

Floors will be hardwood and counter tops will be granite.
Sink will be farmer's sink most likely stainless steel.

Style of cabinet is shaker, with some type of beading and the color is light grey or a creamy white.

Again, we a family of 4 ( two teenagers who Love to cook ).
So a second oven is a must. We tried to fit the 48" duel fuel WOLF, but it would be a monstronsity in the little kitchen. Oh, did I forget to mention, we have no central air on the first floor.

Pantry space will be beside the refrigerator. We are lacking drawer space with this design.

We would appreciate any advise on our plan.

I don't know layouts at all really so can't help you there, but I am very glad you are going out to see Dutch Wood. I think you are going to be delighted with the showroom and with their prices! We visited this weekend and saw all of our (many) cabinets finished and ready to install and they were so much more beautiful than I even anticipated they would be!

I'm not sure if you saw my other thread, but they also started the process of installing my cabinets. Here's an in-progress picture. They really did an amazing job getting the stain perfect and I guess it is quite a challenge to get an even and vibrant stain like this one:

Dear beagledoitbetter, thanks for pictures. We had to reschedule our appointment with Jason last weekend due to Hurricane Irene. Your cabinets are gorgeous and the detail/color is one of a kind.

Well, you'll be happy when you get down to see Jason I'm sure.
Good luck w/ the layout. I'll be eager to hear if you decide to go w/ Dutch Wood and to see the finished project!

Hey Beagles... when are we going to see more pictures??!!

My fiance went over to Jason's today to check some paint colors w/ the cabinets. I asked him to take some pictures of the cabinets, and I am hoping he'll be able to snap some. If he does, I'll post them :)

Dutch Wood link does not come up. Can you fax them drawings and get a quote?

Thanks Beagles!

joaniepoanie, they do have a fax. I'd give them a call first and see.

1317 Hilltop Rd
Myerstown, PA,
17067-1760

Phone: 717-933-5133
Fax: 717-933-1191

They are a small mennonite family run company, no website. Here's an online brochure in PDF form, not sure if this was the link you tried that did not come up. If you want to see more cabinets, you can check out my other thread I just posted with some sneak peaks

Thanks beagles! Maybe it's my iPad, but brochure did not come up. I will call them tomorrow....thanks again..

Beagles,

They look great! Aren't Elmer and Kevin real craftsmen? I can not wait to see all of your cabinets installed.

Tom

Thanks Tom! They definitely are so skilled at what they do. It's amazing, really, that they can take simple sheets of wood and make such beautiful things! I'm so glad they worked out for you too :)

BEAGLES/TOM(NYYANKEEFAN)- i have been reading the kitchen forum for over a year now, while awiting doing my kitchen hopefully by March, I am def. going to see Dutchwood, also tom, i remember we live very close, are your cabinets from them installed? sounds like you are also very happy with them? Please advise, thanks, Michelle

For those of you complaining that a design professional wants to get paid for their work, I'd say they are providing a service to you that you can't do yourself, and they are entitled to be paid. What they get paid is obviously negotiated, but frankly, at minimum, a junior design professional should be paid $100 per hour for their work. Senior talent goes much much higher. It makes sense that the fee is credited if your designer is attached to selling a product. But if you don't buy their goods, they certainly should be compensated.

Of course, never make the assumption when you go to the kitchen store that they are giving you the design services for nothing. Ask first before you start. No one gets hurt then.