The pics say a thousand words. Stand your ground here and you'll come out on the right side of this!

What a freakin' nightmare. I wish a pox on that "contractor" for that crap work and for giving you such stress. Sheesh.

Sadly, the figure I gave was just what we paid them. They did not install our cabs, kitchen or den floors, or supply materials. They only included sheetrock, siding, roofing, most windows, some doors, moldings... and those kinds of things. We even had to pay extra (post-contract) for plywood to be put on our new floors so they could be even enough that new floors can be installed over it.

Have you contracted the contractor's license board? We were having a problem with the company that re-roofed our house and filed a complaint with the license board. It got their attention and they cleared the matter up. (It was a financial issue, their work was great, but after the work was done, we got notice of a lien because they hadn't paid for the roofing material - they told us that they had clients that didn't pay them due to the financial downturn and they used our money to pay for materials on earlier jobs which they shouldn't have.) We messed up by paying them the final payment without them producing proof that they had paid their suppliers. My husband had asked and been given some form before we paid, but it turns out that it wasn't the right thing to prove that the supplier had been paid. And we trusted them because they had checked out well before we chose them. One lesson was that even a company that's been in business a long time and has a good record can get into trouble during a difficult economy.

I'm a bit surprised that you have only $1800 left to pay when there is an inspection that hasn't been passed. I'm sorry that it doesn't help you, but I thought that it was usual to have a substantial payment (e.g. 30%) that is due after final inspection.

dianalo, I am so sorry for all the aggravation and financial and emotional stress that GC is causing you. The pictures speak the truth so continue to strand up and fight! We are all here for you.

I am embarrassed by how trusting/stupid I was to pay them so much when there was still so much that needed doing. At the time, dh told me I messed up and said they would not be back. I defended them thinking he was being cynical, but sadly, he was right.... We have also had time to really scrutinize everything since then. It was still cold outside when I made our last payment,and our porch had been filled with building supplies and a lot of debris. We noticed a lot more details as things got cleaned up and our views were clear.
That reminds me.... did anyone else have crews that left the house a mess at the end of every day? They did minimal clean up and so it was left to me to throw out material packaging, scraps, their old paper coffee cups, instruction manuals, etc.... Was I being a chump about that too? I used to be annoyed by it, but wanted to stay on their good side, so did not speak up about it. I guess I could have been a b*&^% and not had much worse of an outcome, lol.... The sawdust and fine powder were on every surface without even a minimal attempt to keep it in check. They used table saws inside our house because it was cold out and later on used them in the screened in porch. It took a lot of work to keep it from spreading (which some of it did) and the final cleanups of each area were rough. Our house's interior looked like it had a light dusting of snow.

One of the first things I will ask my atty is if I can put a sign on my lawn stating that we were not happy with Ogilvie Contracting. They had their lawn signs up for months touting their business and I would hate for any of my neighbors to think we endorse them. I would use a similar size sign as theirs but mentioning that we were not satisifed customers. Our house looks ok from a distance but if you are on my property the problems get noticeable. If it does not hurt my case, I want to do it.

I think everything I wanted to say has been said by others. Your GC makes my dealings with fireplace installer Mr. Jerk seem like a tiny little blip.

I knew you were having problems with them, but this is much worse than I imagined. I think I would have lost it months ago if I was in your shoes.

Go get 'em!!!!

I often lurk on this site dreaming of the day when we can move forward on our kitchen. I am sorry to hear about the trouble you are having with this company. That's really sloppy work for sure. Hope you are able to get a resolution in your favor.

I am on Long Island too and thank you for naming the company.! One of our neighbors used them to build a second floor on their ranch-it looks fine on the outside but I haven't seen the inside. We were thinking of calling them for a quote-so glad that we didn't. Is LI the only place where contractors can charge outrageous prices for substandard work..it never ceases to amaze me!

Anyway, hope your attorney's letter gets their attention-and realize you are not going to be a pushover.

Good Luck!

Just keep in mind you are spending money you may never recover.

Many GCs are 'suite prrof' since they company they run has few if any assets.

Some of the photos look like inspection photos of a resale things that need to be repaired and some that need clean up. It's hard to tell the degree of the problems on some of them, but the door or window in the second photo! No one should hold themselves out to do work for others -- paid or unpaid, if they can't do better than that.

And yes, with your profession, they should be going the extra measure to impress you and garner future work, not taking it the other direction. Not a very smart move.....

Oh Dianlo, this is terrible. Their work is shoddy. It is simply unacceptable. I cant believe someone purporting to be a contractor could do such poor workmanship. Honestly, if this is the quality of their work, they should not be in business.

I know 2 friends who used this company. One used them approx 6 years ago and the other about 3. Neither had problems. I can only speak to how they treated us now. If I only judged them by how they did those jobs, I'd say they know what they are doing. If you walked through and around my house, you'd wonder how it can be the same company. It is the same ownership, so it can't be blamed on changing management. I just have no clue why they did such poor work for us.... I know the economy stinks, but one would think they'd work extra hard to get referrals and repeat business. We have a family bathroom that needs redoing some day and you can bet they won't get the call, lol!

My old GC walked away in the middle of the job in January, about the same time he did this to more than a half dozen other clients, one of them a prosecutor for the US government. I took over as GC to pay the subs, get lien releases, and get the house dried in while I looked for someone else to finish the job. The architect had worked with this builder for over 25 years.

The new GC is getting it done but it's not cheap. The project has cost me almost 2X the original price but that's another story.

I wish you the best in finishing this project. I totally understand your desire to sue the GC and architect but carefully look at the cost and payback. I've considered doing the same but my old GC filed for bankruptcy, I did attend the creditors meeting in his bankruptcy (over 60 creditors and 8 pending lawsuits) and it was very satitsfying to see him writhing when he was caught in lie after lie, especially when he told the hearing examiner that he "couldn't remember" if his company filed tax returns for 2010. Oops!! Sometime blood is better than money (for the emotions) but sometimes it's good for the heart and soul to just move on.

I wish you the best of luck in finishing your project! the photos are horrendous, and I'm sorry about that. I had some similar things happening at our house.

Billy

We ran into the contractor that we used 5 years ago. We sent our regards to their excellent crew and learned that they had laid off just about everyone during the downturn. One that had done a lot of our job moved back across the country to be closer to family and in a lower cost of living area so they won't even have the option of hiring him back when things get better. Any one who uses them now will have a different set of workers than we did. Perhaps that has happened a lot of places.

Our roofing company that got into financial difficulty had been around for decades and had no complaints or history of problems. It does make hiring someone today a bit scary.

brickeye, even if a GC is suit proof, they may care about retaining their license. Filing a complaint with the license board may give them incentive to work things out. It worked in our case (though the situation was very different). At this point, trying all avenues, especially those without sunk cost is worthwhile.

dianalo,

(((((HUGS))))))

this is terrible. So much great advice has been given to you. You should contact the local consumer reporter on TV news channels. I love those reporters in the trench coats knocking on doors only to have someone open the door and then slam it.

I can't see why you cannot post a billboard on your front lawn with the company's name and a big red X through it, or something like that. What about a sign on your roof (if you are in a landing pattern for an airport). Someone in Philly did that once when they weren't happy with the proposed change in landing patterns at the airport....caught the local news' attention!

I wish you were able to get in touch with Mike Holmes, or someone in your area who does that sort of thing. You need a bulldog. I'm sure you are not the first person who this guy has screwed.

New York's State Attorney General's office has the forms online. Go get 'em tiger.

-Bee

PS--Was just poking around on the web before I hit the submit button. I did see your reviews. Good work. I did see on their website that they link themselves to Nassau County Consumers Affairs and they claim they have no complaints....here is the link to the complaint page:

http://www.nassaucountyny.gov/vendor_lookupWeb/Complaint_fillup.jsp

And Suffolk County:
http://www.co.suffolk.ny.us/departments/CountyExec/consumeraffairs.aspx

Here is a link that might be useful: NYSAG

I thought I posted a reply to the photos earlier, but it didn't show up here. I wasn't clear if you were living in the home or not and couldn't remember hearing one way or the other before. The mention of a CO made me thing you might not be.

Anyway, I was agreeing with the statement that these look more like "before" photos than "after." I don't see how anyone who would do the door or window in the second photo could hold themselves out to do that kink of work for others period. Not even as a volunteer.

Some of the photos are sloppy or look like photos from an inspection of an older home -- not new work. It's hard to tell on the screen just how big a problem there is, but overall, this is not what anyone should expect from new construction, including reno work. They need to make it right or find something else to pay the bills. I hope this really is their only big problem so that they can afford to make it right. If they are starting down a problem path, they could wind up in bankruptcy and you won't get them to be responsible for it. You probably don't want them to do the work now, but you do want them accountable for it. Best of luck.

Ooh... thank you so much Bee! Those links saved me some research on Tues.... I will get on it asap!
I am just madder by the minute because they live in their well done houses (one I know for sure is quite expensive) and we live with stress and mess. We did not go with them because of any bargain basement pricing. I truly believed we were paying for quality. I put so much time and effort into researching materials, layouts and every detail. I shopped for price where I could and made every penny count. What galls me is that with all that effort, I ended up with a bad outcome (so far). Everything I could do on my end, I did. I busted my butt painting the parts that could be painted because all the upcharges left nothing in the budget to pay for pro painters and I have so much more to do.
It was so much effort to go through this process for me and our whole family. It is a real job to plan, pack up a house, live in a bsmt, try to keep things organized, try to keep things clean, feed the family with no kitchen and no real size sink, etc... all while working and trying to keep the kids on track with homework, activities, play dates, etc... We put up with so much to get to this point and there is still so much hassle to go.
Our floor people messed up our floors and they need to be redone.
The counter guy still have not completed his job (over 2 months since we have seen him).
The cab guys have to fix their mess on the back of our island (3 mos, and counting).
Our yard was ruined by the gc's subs' trucks.
The delivery company for our cabs delivered less than half our order and acted like I was nuts for thinking it looked lighter than it should have been (they missed 13 cabinets on first try!). Then, there were the cabs that were the wrong finish, missing parts, etc... It took an extra week or so and stopped our project in its tracks.
The bill for almost everything came in higher than contracted, by a lot.
We got rejected for the propane and don't know how to proceed from here about that.
The process to get the permits and variance was a nightmare because of our incompetent architect and all his errors. It took months longer than it should have. They made us tear down a 3ft cyclone fence because it was 1" over our property line on the survey (despite being short of the sidewalk). We had to replace a perfectly good window in our son's room because of a code issue. They did not pick up on that the last time we got the variance (on our more elaborate plan before our prior gc/cousin finally told us the plans were $120k over budget).
The architect's screw up about drawing the beams wrong cost us both money and time (although we plan on suing to get the money back).
We had a warped door that could not be used. We still can't find one of our light fixtures.
Our expensive Jado faucet (got a great bargain on ebay) could not be used because it was not tall enough to fit over our new vessel sink. We will have trouble selling it because someone (the gc's people) threw out the box that had the parts and instructions in it. It was a special box by Jado and was actually impressive. Considering the crew did not do much cleaning at all, it is odd that that is something they tossed. I had to clean their soft drink bottles and coffee cups each day and we still find butts around our property. My dh would not have tossed that box as it was one of the few things he was familiar with.
It seems like we were cursed at times. I know everyone hits bumps in the road, but ours just don't stop.
We are in the process of refinancing the home equity line with our first mortgage, but the appraisal came in $50k less last month than it did last Aug BEFORE we did the work! Our new payment would be $550 less a month and we have a perfect payment record, but the new appraisal is messing us up big time. We needed it to just say the same amount it did less than a year ago, before we extended and renovated. I don't think that is too much to ask! Our total cost in the project is in the ballpark of almost $200k when you count the materials and all the contractors we had to hire to cover what the gc did not want to do prior to leaving the project and all the fees to the town and the architect to do the plans and get the variance, TWICE! I am not even counting what it will cost to fix the mess it is now and bring it to the finish line... It just seems like nothing goes smoothly. Not a single stinking thing.... Even our scheduled 3 day ski trip for our son's bday, planned to get us out of the barely heated house at the time, was cancelled by a blizzard!
Ok... pity party is concluded and I will try to stop whining. I just get so overwhelmed by how much has gone wrong and what continues to go wrong.... I tried my best and can't imagine how it must be for people to gc their own project, although at times, I feel like I have gc-ed a fair portion of it myself since the hired gc is content to leave it all like it is and worse (worse was what he already had to fix along the way, which had to be insisted on by me, usually after they would say something is fine as if saying that made it so).
I know they think they are a big company and can roll right over us, but they will find out differently. We have a contract and they did not live up to their end. Most people let things go, but we won't and they will pay. If they won't do what is right on their own, they will have to pay others to do it for us. I hope my lawyer finds me a lawyer that really knows his or her stuff. This is the one person who better not let us down.... Something needs to go in our favor as we are due a break by now...

Dianalo ((((hugs)))) from here, too. I am really sorry that this is happening to you. Clearly you are so knowledgeable about houses and also people and, well "reality". Somehow it feels doubly unjust that this is happening to someone so open and free with all of that good advice, too.

Obviously it's silly to imagine that good deeds and knowledge provide any immunity from unscrupulousness. I think all the research in the world only improves your *chances* of finding good work and workers, but bad luck can happen all the same. And that means that people who seemed quite wonderful and credibly recommended, still might not be.

I think you behaved like a decent, reasonable human being, giving them the benefit of the doubt and more money than clearly they deserved. But I think it is bad luck this has come out so badly at the end....what I'm trying to say is that I think it is admirable that you behaved so decently for so long. I'm very sorry these creeps got away with such nonsense. And I hope you find a way to feel better about all of this, whether it involves suing or walking or whatever. ycch.

And by the way, as horrible as this is -- and it is horrible -- I'm going right back to my clippings and finding rosieo's exact words: "If you don't have to go visit your husband or child in the hospital, jail, or rehab - get down on your knees and thank your lucky stars that a stupid kitchen is your biggest problem in life."

OK, so this is more than a stupid kitchen - a lot more. But it's still a lot less than hospital, jail, rehab, the morgue .... this, too shall pass. I'll admire your generous sharings then, too. Thank you for all your contributions. Good luck with these schmucks.

Dianalo,
Those pics speak volumes! All I can say is WOW! How can anyone think they are doing quality work when they leave things that poorly done? Apparently your gc hired some of the cheapest subs he could find and didn't care what they did as long as they were cheap and he could make the big bucks off them. My guess he is paying them so little that they don't care when or how they get the job done.
I have done many remodels and have never left the job until the homeowner was satisfied. Some were impatient but finally realized that sometimes quality takes a little longer. Also, they never had to clean up behind me! Always cleaned up the best I could at the end of each day.

I have never met an architect I could trust. All they know is what looks good on paper and most have not concept of reality. No offense to the architects here, just my experience. Same way with engineers. They will swear up and down something will work because it looks good on CAD. When practically applied it is a different matter. Hope you black listed your architect as well. After you get your money out of him.

Hopefully others will learn from this and always question what they are being told. Always cover your a$$ in the contract. Never assume. If something doesn't seem right, stop them until the issue is resolved. Never let them know you are satisfied til the job is done. Always ask about their subs and check up on them. Many other things to look out for, but those are a start.
One other thing, most good carpenters live in homes that need more work than what they are working on! :) If the contractor or carpenter has a better house than you, then skepticism is warranted!

Hope you get some of your money back and the problems are fixed as best they can. It is so sad to hear about so many having to deal with unscrupulous contractors. It is suprisingly easy to do a good quality job that a homeowner is satisfied with that it is hard to understand why one would do shoddy work and be able to sleep at nite.

dianalo, if there is any way to repair the relationship with this GC (and I'm using this term loosely based on your pictures), do so. For the sake of your pocketbook and sanity.

Bringing in someone else at this point will be costly-contractors do not like cleaning up someone else's mess. Hiring a lawyer is costly and results will be based on how detailed your contract is. If at all possible, try to have a sit down with this man.

Give him a call Tuesday morning, see if he will take your call and go from there. Wishing you the best!

OMGoodness I am so sorry! That is just awful.
We are in a similar situation on a smaller scale with our general contractor. So many things messed up, mostly cosmetic but two larger issues that our home inspector pointed out. We went ahead and contacted a home inspector (the one that did our house prior to our purchasing/closing) to have him inspect the work that was done by our gc. Our gc had done GREAT work for our neighbors but the work that we are seeing is subpar especially cosmetically. He said it would take 2-3 weeks (bathroom remodel, install gas fireplace/stone and custom mantle, new kitchen window and slider). Well we are 3.5 mos later and still far from done with issues. At this point, we know we are going to lose $ but we have had enough. We plan to have a lawyer (through my husbands legal plan at work) look at the contract and then contact our contractor (who makes an appearance every two weeks or something to fix something @@) and tell him we want to walk away. He did great work for our other neighbors but for us we just aren't getting the same quality at all. Our neighbor said he has different people working for him than worked on her house. We think he is over extended and financially struggling. he just put his house on the market and comes over as fast as fast can be when it is time to collect a payment based upon the schedule. We haven't paid him near the full amount nor will we. We plan to have someone come out and fix everything and deduct it from the total. My Mother in law and husband had to install our bathroom lights b/c 3 mos later they weren't done and we were having company. I told my husband I plan subtract 10% of the total too for acting as the GC instead of him when work was being done - I have to check and inspect these guys work, go behind them and point out the fixes as they go. He never came by to check work after it was completed instead I would have to send him texts/pics of things that were done incorrectly each time the guys were here. It has been such a headache. This is hard earned $ we are pissing down the drain on a crappy contractor. So discouraging.

I definitely feel your pain even though yours seems much worse than ours :( I am sorry and I hope you can get it all fixed. :(

"even if a GC is suit proof, they may care about retaining their license."

That depends on locality and how the license is issued.

If the license is issued to a corporation it may have no impact on the underlying people.

Dianalo, I just read your comments on the My budget remodel post and I wanted to cry for you. You are so giving when it comes to others trials, tribulations and elations. No one would suspect what you are going through. I have thought about you often these past couple of months as I have read your various comments to others. I had no idea that you were going through this. I found this forum about a year ago and remember your posts. You were indeed so well prepared. I remember the picture you posted when they broke ground. You were so excited. What a difference a year makes. I am so sorry you have had to go through this. I really can't add to what everyone else has already said. You've received some really good advice. It sounds as though you've hit rock bottom with this reno and I only hope that from here on things will start to improve for you. Stand your ground. You deserve some good luck! I hope that these issues will soon be resolved for you and that there will be a happy ending to this story. I look forward to seeing your new space.

Dianolo,

Wow, wow, wow! My jaw hit the floor looking at those photos. My husband and I are DIY'ers who learn as we go and NOTHING in our house or on our house looks like that. They should be so ashamed of themselves. Of course, they aren't.

I am so glad you are pursuing this matter to the fullest. I agree with posting something on your front lawn. I'd somehow want to compensate for advertising their work also! I think contacting a TV station with a consumer help person would be wonderful. It may just make them move and it would definitely give others pause about using them.

Heck, I want to spread the word on MY facebook so if friends of friends are in the area they will know!

Good luck, dianolo. I hope you draw strength and solace from the support bank you've got here!

dianalo, I'm usually pretty quiet around here but just want to express my sympathy. I hope you find a resolution quickly.

Dianalo, ditto what dee850 just said.

Nancy

Hi, As someone who is local, I feel your pain an frustrations of dealing with Long Island contractors and towns. I'm in Wantagh.

It seems that on LI, contractors have very little accountability. Some are great and everything works out fine. the ones that aren't, seem to get by with ignoring their customers, denying anything went wrong, and threatening to hold up the contrsuction process, the town building permit process etc. It seems that everyone is connected enough in the towns that they feel they can do this.

We're contracting our own second floor additon here and have seen the issues first hand. Thankfully the main issue was 1 trade, however, he managed to delay the job months, lies, theatens etc. unfortunately, we're stuck with him to complete his portion of the job.

Either or, I feel for you, I hope things work out. However, my advice is, get them to fix things, and move on.

it will cost you a lot of money to sue them. it will be messy, there may be a countersuit etc. Realize that it was a mistake to hire these guys, force them to fix what you can and move on.

I have been livid and seeing red about my contractor, and thinking I want to show him! but I realized something, it will create even more drama, more pain, more collateral damage. is it right? no, but I'd rather get on with my life.

incidently, I have heard Ogilve recommended, around the area, but contractors change, the guys working for them change, and things can get better or worse in a year.

good luck..

Dianalo,

Those pics of the substandard work are pretty amazing. I truly hope that you can get this resolved to your satisfaction.

Oh, Dianalo, I am so sorry! That is incredibly shoddy work, and I cannot believe that any so-called professional would even want to claim this kind of work is satisfactory, much less call it finished! UGH!

((((Dianalo))))

I know it's not what you want to hear, but if they've chosen to end the relationship and forfeit the last payment, then let them go. Spend your energy trying to find someone good who will be willing to take over and fix your issues. You'll spend the same amount to fix it as you would on a lawyer to sue, but you'll at least be able to comfortably live in your home with confidence.

Now if you have an in house lawyer willing to do all of the legal work for free, that's another story!

It's a holiday, so let the wine flow and picture your contractor's head exploding in every one of the fireworks rockets. :)

Oh, Dianalo, I am so sorry! That is incredibly shoddy work, and I cannot believe that any so-called professional would even want to claim this kind of work is satisfactory, much less call it finished! UGH!

((((Dianalo))))

We have decided to sue them for several reasons.
1. Giving them a lot of time to come back at their leisure has not worked. No one from that company has been to my house in over 2 months.... yet we did not threaten or do anything other than ask them to come back and finish. They ignored that or disputed that there was anything left undone or anything that needed repair was their fault, yet the people I spoke to had either never stepped foot in our house or had not been to our place in months. The people who had been doing the work were not who we could speak to.

2. We have had so many problems along the way and the gc knew how poorly this whole process had gone along, from the horrendous architect, the trouble the town gave us, the propane companies who dropped the ball, the floor fiasco, the delivery problems of our cabs, the cab installers who messed up (and are still coming back to fix another mistake), and even the countertop guy who has not finished our counters after several months. It is beyond cruel that the gcs would add to the list.

3. They cost us more than they should have due to all the "change orders" that should have been factored into the initial estimate. They could have picked up on others' errors sooner and saved us time and/or money. They knew going in that money would be tight but that we did not have the luxury of waiting to save up more because our house could not get through another winter without real damage. Our house had taken a big hit with the spring storm a year ago and we needed to do the structural work. It almost looked like we had to do the exterior work and could not afford the extension/reno now, but Ogilvie worked out how we could make it work by changing the plans here and there and making ends meet that way. Then, once we were underway and there was no going back, we got hit with extra bills from them on a regular basis, not counting the unforeseen things that popped up. They took advantage of us because we were in a vulnerable position with our house ripped apart.
I think they are counting on us not going after them because they probably think we can't hire an atty. I am hoping to find one that can work part on retainer but part on contingency. If the atty believes in our case and that he/she will get paid in the end, they are likely to be willing to take us on that way. If not, we will save up longer to hire an atty and take it from there (if the atty thinks we have a strong likelihood of recovering). If they had not refused to finish our house in a reasonable manner, they would have gotten away with all the extra charges and not having prevented some of the problems along the way. Since they got greedy and think the finishing would cost more than the balance owed, that gave us reason to go after them for the up-charging as well.

4. If the other people they have done this to had stood up to them, they either would have been gun shy about doing this again or could have been on probation with their license (or whatever you call it). All it takes for evil to triumph is good people to do nothing (to paraphrase a famous line). If we have to go through some more hassle to get things right, then so be it. In the end, we deserve a functioning well done house and to know we did not roll over when someone pushed us. I'd forever regret not standing up for what was right.

5. We had been on the fence about pursuing the architect for his charging to fix his major mistake and for all of his other incompetence and how that cost us time and money. If we are hiring an atty to pursue the gc, we may as well also go after the architect as planned. We had been wavering because we were worn out, but this has energized us to action. If others had done so with the architect prior to us, we may have had a different story to tell now.

6. (probably biggest) We are facing what could be a huge tab to complete our house. We don't have the cash to do so right now. We have enough to pay the gc's balance but this could run thousands more depending on how extensive some of the issues turn out to be. They may be a lot of simple fixes, but we won't know that until it is all done. For example, they messed up our vent hood, which would cost approx $2k to replace and then it would need to be installed. That would be after someone had to spend time trying to get it to work again and un-install it. That is a worse case scenario, but there is a chance it cold go that way. It may be correctable with an hour's labor or it could run thousands more. There are other unknowns, so we are afraid to think that the $1,800+ balance is only the start. If we start to do stuff, they may dispute how it was done and it could get harder to prove who was at fault. As it is, they are the only people who have touched our house and therefore, blame is easy.

We have the contractor we trust coming over in the next few days to assess how bad it is and could be. If by some chance, he thinks he can get it done for approx what we owe, we could skip suing. We would still file complaints, but not take them to court. They would still be wrong for leaving us hanging and doing poor work. They also wasted months extra because we expected them back.
If anyone is on LI and would like to see it in person, I'd be happy to show just how bad it is. I'd hate to see anyone use them because of their reputation from the past (like we had believed). The people working for them seem to have been with them for a very long time and they only had 2 employees and 2 gcs, plus the office manager. The rest were subs they hired (that they seem to usually hire and seem like it is a long term arrangement). This appears to be deliberate and I don't doubt that they CAN do good work. I just know that they DIDN'T on our house ..... which is a current issue.

Dianalo, I'm really sorry that you're going through this and I agree with you totally in principal about pursuing the contractor. You want his head on a plate and I don't blame you.

However, I've never seen a construction lawyer that will work on contingency. Most I've known want at least a 10K retainer up front, and that's just for writing some nasty notes to the contractor. If you file suit, that's automatically 50K. If they contest the suit in an actual trial rather than settle, that's 100K+.

And the reason they won't do contingency is it's easier to get blood from a turnip than it is any settlement money from a contractor. They'll just declare bankruptcy, and declare all of their assets belong to a relative as security for a fictional loan. There's a local builder right now who has several millions in debt and whose creditors are completely unable to touch him because of shady moves like that. His 3M vacaton home belongs to his wife. His ranch belongs to his father. And no one is getting paid. The creditors are the losers in this.

That's why I'll caution you about taking this to any court. It will expensive, lengthy, and you may end up with nothing. And that's the bestcase scenario if you win and are awarded an unenforcible settlement and attorney's fees. If your contract is at all vague or poorly written, it can come down to who interprets it, and you could possibly lose. Yes, it's a possibility tht you wouldn't prevail. Are you willing to risk that?

I'm not saying that you shouldn't feel the way you do, nor that you shouldn't seek to post all kinds of reviews, or contact government offices. Just that to take it any further requires a great deal of money and time on your part. You say you were naive going into this project so I'm just trying to open your eyes on the reality of a lawsuit. Don't be naive enough to think that the aggrieved party always wins, or that you couldn't end up being forced to sell all of your assets in order to afford the attorney's bills. That's one possible outcome of a lawsuit that you should be prepared for.

Definately fight for what you believe in, but the reality is that there comes a point of diminishing returns in any fight and you need to decide what that is.

Too bad Mike Holmes only does stuff in Canada...

oy.

Dianalo, check your email inbox.. . . or your junk/spam folder. I sent you a very lengthy email on this subject and a shorter folo message after your last post. Essentially, I am in step with all those who have shared expressions of support of encouragement. However, as to specific advice on strategy, I'm especially nodding to those suggestions offered up by Chrisk327, live_wire_oak and GreenDesigns. So very sorry to hear of this horrible situation but just don't want to see you become further entangled in an ugly, very much uphill and costly battle. Whatever you do, please know that I'm sending you my very best wishes and lots of ((HUGS!))

Wow, at first I was thinking that maybe you were going to be overly picky just after reading that you are suing the architect, and now the gc. But then I saw those pictures. That is UNBELIEVABLE. The work is awful, shoddy, unacceptable, and I honestly think I could do better with no experience. What a nightmare, I am so sorry you have to go through this, and honestly your pictures speak a thousand words. You have the proof, and you are so not being picky, that is unbelievable!

Dianalo, I understand, I applaud you and sympathize and empathize. Etc. I want to just further GreenDesigns smart cautions, properly couched. Sorry if I'm not couching enough because I am *totally* on your side.

This is a parable of sorts. Several years ago now my kid scratched two pickups trucks in a parking lot practicing on her new bike. She was pursued by someone who doesn't even own either pickup, was just borrowing one of them (maybe), he chased her screaming and yelling; then I was threatened by them in the parking lot and had to call the police for escort home. Subsequently they sent a bill for over 10K for two *scratch and spit* scrapes.

I really, really, really sweated what to do. Quite obviously this guy is a total creep (the kid who was very traumatized was 8 at the time); the damage minimal. Etc. Clearly fraud. Buuuut.... I spoke with a neighbor whose job it is to pursue criminal automobile fraud cases (evidently there actually are people who wander around looking for expensive cars to hit; I thought that was just an urban myth). Her words of wisdom to me were: Give It To The Insurance Company. It's why you've been paying insurance all these years ... yadayaydayada. I wanted blood. Buuuuut... then she said: do you like your kids? Do you want to see them grow up? this is what will happen. This will take a minimum of two years. You will become a lay-expert on the matter, spending thousands of hours learning how to pursue these guys. You will not have time to see your family grow up. You will miss it. You will become obsessed with getting these punks. And in the end, here cut to the scenario GreenDesign describes with them declaring bankruptcy or just not paying, or whatever. The point is, you pay, so many times over, in so many ways, and are highly unlikely to get anything at all in the end. Even if you're one hundred percent in the right. Which you probably are. (I believe you are; just being careful with my words: who am I?)

It also impressed me to hear this from a lawyer whose full time job is pursuing such fraud cases who then told me about a ridiculous case in which she was sued - also clearly not fraud, but just absurd. She gave it to her insurance company too, that is, walked away from it. Even though she was clearly in the right. Her point was: she wanted her life. Pursuing the right thing would have deprived her of her life.

Not sure I'm conveying this properly. My point is, you seem so nice, so generous, so helping .... so wronged. I am afraid you will be compounding wrongs by pursuing too strongly, sucked into the vortex of vengeance without regard for your own safety. Take care.

I'm not saying you shouldn't. I'm definitely not saying you don't deserve to seek satisfaction, compensation, etc. Just that sometimes it is counter-intuitive how to do the right thing for you yourself.

BTW, the insurance people *paid those f-ing creeps*. I am still so incredibly mad about it. I wanted them to throw the whole weight of their full-time lawyer staff after these crooks. They didn't, which may or may not be reflective of their professional assessment of their chances of winning. But it is over. And I have not morphed into a legal expert on suing. And I'm glad of it; just isn't one of those things I need to know everything about before I die (like kitchens wasn't either. But that's another story....).

Take care.

Powertoolpatriot. If the contractor or carpenter has a better house than you, then skepticism is warranted! Really, my husband is a GC, with a excellent reputation and our house is very nice. If a person has real pride it will not stop at his door step. Work may be slower, but if he, has real pride it is bred in him. What are people now to do run around town looking at the GC house.

Anyone that has hung around for a long time may recall another gwebber's unfortunate experience and court date

Here is a link that might be useful: Cabfiascoguy

What happens if they countersue? I'm no lawyer, but have heard a few horror stories.

Best of luck with your new GC and I hope you finally get your home finished!

Just a minor update - I had the trusted contractor here and he agreed that work remaining is far more than the balance owed. He also said that he found the work done to be shoddy (no shock!), and sadly enough, found more issues that I had missed (very clear, once he pointed them out, i.e almost twice as many nail pops as I had noticed among other things). He also explained how a few things need to be fixed properly and I was surprised at how much more would be involved than I had guessed (that is why I am not a pro or DIYing more than I am able to).
I don't have figures yet, but will in a few days. I am holding off doing anything until I have that in hand. I need more information before making big decisions. I would imagine a potential lawyer would need that info as well. I am sure that if a case is not winnable, the lawyer is not going to bother taking it on. We don't have deep pockets, so it is not like they can bill us for hours on end... It might be that they respond to being served or a warning shot from an atty. Not everything goes to court these days. We just want the work completed, and by somebody other than them at this point. We are not asking for the moon and stars, but if it involves more time and money on our part, what we ask for will be going up. It may turn out to be a small claims court case. They may not want to spend their time and gamble on the outcome of going to even small claims court. I'd say my case is the much stronger one because the physical evidence is clear.

This company seems to be in good financial shape, and any potential lawsuit by us would not put them out of business. If it messes with their license, then they should have thought of that sooner before leaving this mess behind. Hopefully, they have errors and omissions insurance of some sort of coverage (such as I have at work). If we did get a judgement, even including for our inconvenience/pain and suffering and with interest, I doubt it would be a huge number. I do think that once we have both photos and a written estimate (we may get several) from licensed contractor/s, we will have a pretty solid case that they could not have expected final payment with the condition they left our house. If any judge has ever owned a home and sees these photos, I doubt there would be a lot of gray area. It is clear that we hired them to do a professional job and got an incomplete, poorly done one. Their argument is that they have the right to have left our project for not having been paid the final payment. It is easy to see that the work was not "final" so that any reasonable person would not have paid. Besides, they had not even billed us for it or made an attempt to be paid that last part. They knew that it would never happen because the job was not done, so did not even bother. If their argument was lack of payment, I imagine they need to show they tried to get paid. They did not even ask verbally. They pressured me for the prior payment, which is why there is such a small balance. I was worn out at the time and they laid on the guilt that our project had gone long and they were entitled to be paid that amount. I was incredibly stupid and naive to have given them as much as I did (over $7k). I hope if nothing else is gained from this, at least people here will heed this warning! By the time they were asking for it, I "knew" them and was seeing them every day. I wanted to make sure they did not get mad at me and would keep coming to finish. I thought if I held any back, they would slow down the work. Obviously, that basically stopped the work, so I did the wrong thing by paying so much. When you get closer to the finish line, it is easy to get sloppy with decisions and just wanting it to be over. I trusted them and was wrong. What is worse, is dh was absolutely right and he knew, after the fact, that they'd never return once he heard how much I paid. That alone is unforgivable, lol!

I have been busy the past few days trying to make it look better where I can without involving the stuff they needed to do. I scrubbed the garage door and the north side of our house where we had some green mold on our siding from the trees and the wet spring. Today, I put primer on the garage door and will paint tomorrow. It feels good to get the stuff I can do, done. There is so much that is waiting on the resolution of the problem areas. I feel like I need to keep moving the ball forward so that the only undone stuff is their responsibility. I can't control what they did not do or did not do right, but I can work on my list. Hopefully, I can make some things look more normal bit by bit....

OK. Had enough here.

I think it's time to stop taking legal advice from an Internet message board, especially from people who don't know the difference between a contract lawyer and a litigator, or believe the "best case scenario" is an unenforceable judgment, or think it matters to a corporation if the owner's wife has the house in her name. In any conflict, some people just enjoy stopping the victim from fighting back. It's a really common pattern, I don't understand it, but I don't really care why people do it--and neither should you.

A professional--i.e., an attorney can give a useful assessment of the merits of your case. But the idea that nobody every succeeds suing a contractor is just plain nuts.

I linked to a local story below that is currently happening. He was a local homebuilder and developer whom the economy took down. Quite a few of the last homes he built have big issues, but the homeowners have to get in line behind the banks. And the banks aren't winning against this guy. He has political connections. His is not the ony case to have (successfully) used that tactic, it's just one of the largest and most recent.

There have also been many many local stories about smaller contractors and builders doing shoddy work, getting complaints and judgements then declaring bankruptcy, changing their names and emerging to do more substandard work and repeat the cycle. This isn't fiction. This is a bad reality show here in the sunny South. And it would be a disservice to not bring such possible outcomes to dianalo's attention and to pretend that mounting a lawsuit is nothing but kittens and moonbeams. All you have to do is be right about the issue and things will magically go your way. That's not the truth.

I do agree that it would be best to talk to a lawyer that is licensed in her local jurisdicton because local laws and remedies vary. Most firms will give a prospective client a free short appointment. Beyond that though, you have to promise to pay them. Dianalo has already indicated that this remodel has made finances tight for her. Choosing to proceed with a suit will make the financials even tighter. How she spends her money is none of my business, but a heads up on potential costs is something many folks appreciate.

I'm all about standing up for yourself, but sometimes the expedient thing to do is to walk away. In a perfect world, of course right would prevail, but in this world, you get all of the justice you can afford. I'm sure we all want to support her, but at the same time, it doesn't do any good to inflame the passions when cool headed thoughts are needed. I'm sure she'll make the decision that's right for her regardless of any postings here, and we support whatever path she chooses to walk.

Here is a link that might be useful: Developer shifts assets to daddy to avoid paying debt

GreenDesigns- Well said.

I agree with marcolo, and while I understand your desire to vent, this is not the venue for that, which I am sure your attorney would tell you. Take great pictures, try to document conversations etc before you sit down with him(her). Most attorneys will tell you not to say anything publically until you speak with them. In other words - don't tip your hand.

For all the things that you have mentioned you are disatisfied about, you have now given him the ability to make his excuses. Not what you want I am sure.

Good luck and I feel your pain, believe me.

And it would be a disservice to not bring such possible outcomes to dianalo's attention and to pretend that mounting a lawsuit is nothing but kittens and moonbeams. All you have to do is be right about the issue and things will magically go your way. That's not the truth.

What are you talking about? Who said any such thing? You're just making up fictional strawmen to attack.

Dianolo is dealing with a well-known design/build firm--they advertise on TV--but you bring up "smaller contractors and builders." You talk about the way it is in the South--but she's in New York State. You say you don't know about her finances, and then tell her she probably can't afford a lawsuit. Dianolo has not even met with an attorney yet, and here you are dispensing advice that a lawsuit is pointless? Shouldn't that be for the lawyer to decide?

As I said, I've seen this before. As soon as victim finally raises a hand to defend herself, some people love to rush in and hold down her arms. Thankfully, dianolo is smart enough to shake them off.

But at this point, she also needs to stop discussing the ins and outs of her legal dispute online. Those conversations are now for the lawyers. I hope she'll keep us updated on her other projects and issues.

Dianalo...DH and I met with our builder/contractor today, about our
new house build. Before we got started, I filled him in on your situation.
I whipped out my iPad, brought up your posting and showed him the
photos. He saw right away that the keystone is crooked. The screen
door blew him away.

I'm glad you've found a contractor you have confidence in. However,
if you'd like a second opinion, he said to give you his #. He's probably
no more than 10-15 mins from you.

If you're interested, contact me via email from my page.

Thanks again all for your continued support and advice. I won't know for sure how we will proceed until I speak with a qualified lawyer who does this kind of thing regularly. When I am involved in a r.e. deal, the lawyers who do r.e. day in and day out, know the ropes and can easily cut to the chase. When you get one who is operating outside of their field of expertise (often for a relative or friend) the level of representation drops. I want to speak to someone who knows this type of lawsuit, both the pitfalls and the upside. Maybe there is a chance to settle without going to court. I bet the gc would rather not pay their atty's hourly wage to fight a battle that they know there is a good chance of losing. I don't need strategies on my side, as referred to above, because the physical condition of my house speaks volumes. I am going to be careful and not touch any of the stuff that we are having problems with because I don't want to hear afterward that the new contractor or we have any blame. Right now, the work done to the house was done by the gcs and their subs. It is available for a home inspector if we are advised to get one or for more contractors to write up estimates. We will proceed cautiously, but ultimately, we want our house to be finished nicely and not live with stuff that looks like we tried to do it and failed (and then gave up). So much is done poorly and half done.
I'd rather err on the side of sticking up for ourselves than to wonder and feel victimized years later.... Of course, I won;t chase windmills, if that is what the atty advises we'd be doing. It's still early to figure this all out.

For most people, their home is thie largest financial investment, and a large emotional investment, too.

We all start out excited by the fruits of renovation. Then we start to feel guilty and/or stupid because it costs more then we'd hoped, and sometimes more than is justified. Next we feel frustrated and powerless because it takes longer than it should. Then we lose confidence because we see so many mistakes. The coup de gras comes when someone tries to cheat us, like your GC.

As guilty pleasures go, renovations come with so much baggage. Its rare that we get the pleasure we deserve from the funds and energy we put into them.

Since your GC appears to be a substantial established concern, I am hopeful someone there will come to their senses and treat you right. I don't know how big a firm it is, but I can't imagine the owners think it is ok for a staff person to call a customer a pita!

Good luck D. Like the others, I want you to get proper resolution without going too far! Easier said than done, of course, so get to that atty ASAP.

Some day you'll be able to tell your grandkids the legend of the crooked remodel and how your house was briefly haunted by something evil that made everything lopsided.