Terrible pun - thank you! Here's hoping you get the above worked out.

BUMP.

Aliris I posted on the link...

Check out what AZStoneconsulting had to say. I think you
will need to contact your installer.

Thinking of you.
~boxerpups

Here is a link that might be useful: Fabrication quality:

Thanks a lot, boxer - I saw that other posting and all the great photos.

Kinda depressed by all this. It's not a bad job, just ... it's so incredibly hard to find someone responsible to take your money. You try really hard just to get anyone even to do it and then they grudgingly grab the money and give little in exchange -- actually, that's too harsh; maybe not "little", just not commensurate amounts. Forums like this seem to have conscientious tradesmen around but they're very difficult to find IRL. Or maybe it's just difficult to afford them. Dunno.

These folks are very nice, trying hard, etc. But they have zero respect for anyone other than themselves or what they'll do. I feel pretty played-with.

Oh well. It's just a kitchen (and a house). This is just not a tragic problem. Time to move on....

aliris,
There are some conscientious contractors and installers out there, but for the life of me, it seems few if any on these forums can find them! :)
You should be able to get what you pay for, but that seldom happens.
It kinda goes back to what is generally accepted. My brother was showing me some houses he was working on in
Texas and it was amazing how crappy the craftsmanship was. When I pointed this out to him, he said that while it wouldn't fly back home, there, it was the best they would get because, the homeowner wanted it cheap and fast. So this one house had a beautiful library with walnut crown mold and base and just about everything else. There were huge gapers in the miters and it was embarrassing to look at. But the owner accepted it because that was what was accepted by other homeowners, so he didn't want to rock the boat and risk not having it completed.
So to everyone that is less than satisfied, rock the boat a little, if you dare! :)

Hey powertools -- I just don't know... there are a lot of different kinds of fish swimming in the sea, yet it's awfully difficult to see beyond your own little tiny eddy.

And what on earth is that supposed to mean????

I'm as confused as ... you. The first thing you say is: 'there are lots of good people for hire out there', and then you go on to recount shoddy workmanship. And then you suggest at least some of the problem is supply-demand; that demand isn't calling supply to task.

But this I agree with perhaps - in any event, there's a surplus of poor-quality supply flying around, for whatever reason. But this means it's really all the much harder to bring to heel the problem-contractors.

I don't really know what I'm saying except that it's at the least a vicious circle; it's not clear where it starts. I agree we on the demand-end of things bear some responsibility for not bringing a clearer clarion call to bear when the supply end of things is short. *But* - that's the thing, there's so very little that can be done from the supplicant's end.

And also -- why does it all have to be adversarial??? That's what gets me. There are so many calls here about withholding payment and scrutinizing, etc. But I don't want a system where someone's trying to sucker the other; I want a fair exchange: goods (money) for service (properly installed counters, say).

So I think you're implying (gently) that I'm part of the problem by not rocking the boat more, or more effectively.

But I don't want to rock the boat. I want to be a cooperative force in sailing it.

grump.

Then there's the story of the homeowner who called the plumber on mistakes and ended up with an abusive threatening menace in his house. But I digress...

(Mostly, I have had good experiences with craftsmanship and workers willingness to fix problems. And when I haven't, I've found new workers. I'm not "rock the boat" demanding, but it is my house and my money and I hire people to do things right. I can do most things about 80% right myself... If thats all i wanted, I wouldn't have hired a professional!)

We call these guys professionals. I guess the term has broadened its meaning. It used to be that anything that produced a physical result was a "trade", which required a knowledge of materials and practices with these materials. The person was "in the trade" and a tradesperson. Back then, white collar people produced results that were far more intangible, and their activities came to be grouped into field they "profess" to know, claim to know, can profess to know. Obviously, a tradesperson also has a lot of knowledge.

Ideally they receive a lot of supervised training. This is a strict requirement for plumbing and electricity.

Stone-cutting-polishing is not an organized profession.

--

In any field, profession or trade, there are bad methods that enable the practitioner to get off scot free with the cooperation of his/her coworkers. Some TV shows highlight this a lot and make you laugh while it's happening. (NCIS is one example).

aliris19, your OP's last question was "And when some or all of this didn't happen, then what? "

Like the last big line in the movie Casablanca, right after they apparently get told there is illegal gambling going on and they say "Really? Wow. Ok. " But they knew there was gambling going on. Then somebody gets killed and a guy says in an ordering voice "Go round up the usual suspects". In both situations they already knew it all. They knew who the right person was to arrest for the killing but they pretend to be dumb and they set out to go round up some "suspects".

You must be the more threatening entity. There has to be a hint of a threat. Not a real threat, which they can push back consciously and brush off.

You too can play dumb and let them sense that you will play smart once they act honestly.
Oh golly, did I write your last check from the right account? Let me see.
Oh, gee, I think you already got that payment.

This can be your means to be threatening. They must be motivated to act honestly.

If knowledgeable people are not using their knowledge to produce results, you cannot be merely asking technical questions. You must ALSO manage the motivation and honesty equation.

--
Assuming there is money still owing, someone might say
"well give us X thousand now and we'll come back for the remaining money ( " $Y " ) when we fix the outstanding problems"
To which you can say, if I can't get you to come back and fix things for a large amount like $ X+Y, then I know you won't come back and fix things for a much smaller amount.

If you EVER concede to pay anything partial along the way, you lose the argument. If you like losing arguments, losing your position, losing ground, go ahead and give them some more money for any reason. Go ahead and concede. Give in.

In the FAQ for first-time renovators, some of these strong tactics could be decribed. But a lot depends on the individual. Have you ever had to get medical bills reduced ?

Hth

Aliris, the granite installation you received is not up to generally accepted standards in the field.
I think that's clear from your pictures: this is laughably poor seam fabrication:

The question is: do you want to hold your installers to those accepted trade standards? And your answer is: you've tried, and they have refused. In which case you have a breach of contract scenario, which is indeed frustrating, and we all hate being in those shoes -- "why can't we all just get along?!" etc. And we women in particular really resent being placed into a conflictual role against our will. It's not a role we've been socialized to inhabit comfortably. But alas, that's where you are, baby.

So the question NOW is: do you hold their feet to the fire or not? And how much fire are you, personally (not anyone else on this board), willing to provide? It's really up to YOU where you'd like to let it drop, and there are no right or wrong answers.

UNSAT - IF you have NOT paid in full yet - DO NOT, I say again -

D O - N O T - P A Y - I N - F U L L - UNTIL your seams are done right - They can do it IF they know how - my gut tells me they CAN'T do it because they DO NOT KNOW HOW to dress seams and pull 'em tight...... This ALSO explains why the kitchen company says that "problem? what problem - everything looks gosh-darned good to us !!!"

As I have said before = Totally UNSAT =
they are a BOLO = They are a NO GO !!!!

oof. Thanks, all, for the bolstering.

The good news really is this isn't the end of the world, it isn't even the most egregious job ever. If I weren't sick of these guys, sick of being hounded for the money, sick of them dribbling out the job so long, and on and on - if there were something I knew I needed to hold their feet to the fire to *do*, I'd not pay them. But to all of the above, I'm not. I don't have the will to fight longer for what is, at the end of the day, essentially trivia. I appreciate that a true craftsman wouldn't have accepted this. And I hear the interesting caution that there are trades that are more and some that are less organized: this is a less-organized one. I should have caught on to that earlier. I did catch it, just not the consequences: it will take longer and be harder to figure out who to hire. Really hard. As if the rest weren't.

Anyway, you'll all kill me when I say that I have indeed paid in full. Some of the reason is truthfully, I don't think their willingness to return and try to fix stuff happens to depend so much on the payment. I could be wrong of course, and haven't the time to justify my hunch on this right now. But that is my bottom-line assessment - recall I called them mavericks. It's my opinion they march to a slightly different drum. While I do agree my withholding payment would get their attention, it's not lack of attention that's the problem. For them I think it's just a red flag of infuriation; actually potentially slightly counter-productive (no pun intended).

Please, don't yell at me about paying! Makes me feel really slumpy, which isn't helpful. I've heard yall loud and clear on that regard long ago, but in this case, I don't think it's critical.

Anyway, thanks *hugely* one and all for all the comments -- even the yelling. I'll keep you posted as I move out from here.

Boxer, you have the kindest way with words. About how I proceed I am hoping there aren't right or wrong answers. I think, given that it's done already, this is correct in this instance. It's helpful, however, to know what would have been right or wrong fabrication procedures. But the personal interaction-stuff is so very tricky and, as you say, ultimately hugely personal, intimate even.

IF you have NOT paid in Full - DO NOT

NOW is NOT The time to give up on this - NOW IS THE TIME TO GET DOWN and CHA-CHA !!!!

Your guys need to fix what's wrong, or hire another fabricator to rip out and replace. This is done all the time.

Here's the consequences of "just giving up and accepting a CRAP JOB" :

THE CRAP JOB WILL REMAIN CRAP - It WILL NOT MORPH into a work of art! after 36 months - IT WILL STAY AS CRAP - F O R E V E R !!!

You will be reminded of this fact - EVERY DAY that you look at the crappy seams and the crappy job that they did on your UMS - YOUR WORST DAYS will be when....

You have your home up for sale, and after EVERY SHOWING - Your Realtor will report to you that the prospective buyers "Loved the home, but they were "concerned" about the quality of the countertops"...... and you really needed to get an offer so you could sell your existing house so you could buy another one..............

And how about EVERY TIME you have company over and people want to see yout beatiful stone counters (with the incredibly CRAPPY SEAMS & UMS) - Yes... You'll hear all kinds of "comments" like......"Oh... good heavens - WHAT happened HERE?" "Who DID this install - Ray Charles or Stevie Wonder?" "Did YOU install these tops YOURSELF?" .....Get used to those ribbings and many more that'll make you feel like a TOTALL SCHMUCK for throwing your hands up now and just "going with the CRAP they have presented you with......

Still wanna give up???

Hate to see you in those scenarios - but this is where you'll be in the future.....

If You Give Up Now....... :-(

keep fighting

Aliris, tne reason not to give up quite yet is because the errors are actually functional, not just aesthetic. If it were just a color match, who cares? But it's not just that. You will be preparing food in this kitchen and this sub-par installation will make your life harder.

The 1/2" of filler in the incredibly uneven slabs at the sink edge will crack, discolor, be unsanitary and need constant replacement:

The chips on the top surface of the stone might shale away further under real use:

Your wiping sponges will forever get caught in these cracks. Bacteria has an excellent chance of festering in here:

If you've already paid in full, why not get a second opinion from another stone expert? Courage! hugs to you and do know that your granite is truly beautiful, come what may!

While there is very likely to be some 'pattern jump' with a stone like yours (no two pieces will match the patter in the stone exactly) the seam should be much more even and straight, with no chip out visible.

It is a terrible job.

offer more money, because it's only money.
Think of it as if the job costed more and you agreed to it initially.

Also, you can find someone with experience mixing epoxy of various colors. She or he will fill in the troughs, and do so with the right colors. They will smooth the epoxy as it sets. Everyone will be happy.