You've got the whole thing backwards and are over analyzing the details that you won't need to know 2 years after your project is over with. Pick your KD first, and they can guide you to the right cabinet line for your needs and budget. If the line passes KCMA certification, it will stand up to abuse in your kitchen, no matter what the construction level might be. Most lines tout overkill specs for snob appeal rather than for adding any additional durability of functionality to your kitchen.

You're not going to 100% know the answer to some of your questions about a KD until you get a lot further into the project than just the first date. Most won't do scads of work for you without some form of engagement. What you're trying to do on the first couple of dates is to just get a feel for if you click with the designer and if the designer feels that they can give you what you want at your budget point. Assuming that your budget point is actually realistic, that is.

you might be surprised how much customization can actually be achieved with stock cabinets these days...called upgrades and will virtually land you in the semi custom camp and especially if your style and finish is very basic, should not be ruled out as opposed to starting at semi custom.Watch out for low level stock, but say Diamond cabs or Schuler at Lowes have yielded wonderful end products for many people. Why do you think the cost of custom is something you must entertain? Custom will be more pricey by leaps and bounds and the questions about integrity of the product are pretty much answered by the fact of it being "custom". You might try the spread sheet with comparing semi custom with local cabinetmaker-I think that would be more worthwhile.....and I would personally do comparison of RTA with stock, myself-but I have a small kitchen.What is the scope of your project-you are very methodical and organized but start by comparing the right things. Many people start by finding the doorstyle and finish they seek-then pick 2 companys that offer it and compare the whole package itemization once given a quote.You can't rate a designer like that IMO-some will let you down when you initially liked them, and some who might seem "not switched on" may actually possess the perfect skill set/ideas for your space. Must get into the weeds bit by bit before this is revealed. Are you dependent on a designer for the inspiration and nuances and all details for your space? Again-what is the scope of the project?

Thank you both! First, the scope of the reno is basically the entire kitchen. We have to redo the layout since the stovetop is on the island and I have small kids and we don't like the existing countertop/cabinets. It is a very large kitchen. I don't have the exact dimensions but I would guess 17' x 19'.

You both raise chicken and egg issues. On the one hand Holly is saying pick the designer. On the other hand, Herb is saying, I won't be able to rate them on the attributes I listed until I get into the thick of it. We are considering 2 local cabinet makers (which I considered "custom"), however, I am concerned about warranties (should the cabinet maker retire)/ not having a catalyzed, durable finish, etc. We are also considering 3 designers - one only sells Woodmode/brookhaven, the other only sells Rutt and the third brand we liked was Plain and Fancy (but we haven't landed on a designer yet). So it seems to me that the KD will only pick and choose within the brand that they sell vs. out of a broader portfolio, The stores that sold P&F also sold Ultracraft and maybe one other brand but we liked the P&F displays. I think Ultracraft might have been better for frameless so again, we have a KD that is selling a given brand vs. choosing the best brand for us.

So do you understand my dilemma now? HAve I not been going to the right stores? I do think I will get a better sense of the KDs as they work towards giving us an estimate. Two are measuring and will provide an exact layout complimentary. One of the local cabinet makers will give me a range of estimate but not via exact layout/measurement but she has been in the house and had several discussions with us and seen photos of what we like. I'm not sure if the other local cabinet maker will measure or just give me an estimate by viewing the kitchen. And I'm still trying to find a P&F dealer who will measure and do a layout for free. Otherwise I will consider the ball park estimate by that KD (based on dimensions of the kitchen that I give her.) I don't think she will give me a layout but all of that makes me feel like she will be less thorough and less likely to go the distance.

Please advise given the above more detailed info.

Thank you!

Herb, I forgot to add that I am keeping the existing refrigerator and double ovens but am getting new and more appliances for the other stuff. Hope that helps

What's your budget for the project? You can pretty much get any "look" at any budget. That's what I'm trying to tell you here. Above a certain level, the brand of the cabinet and it's actual construction is a contest of diminishing returns. You can get what you want pretty much in any brand unless you want something very specific like a gray stained walnut. If you want something so very unusually specific as that, then you start your search finding out who carries that. That would be a case of the brand being more important than the designer. If you want something like "white shaker cabinets" then there isn't a single cabinet line anywhere that doesn't offer that. In that case, the designer is more important than which line you pick as any line will give you what you want.

17 by 19 is indeed large.....I would be looking for that special something-whether I produce the inspiration and a designer immediately dovetails on the concept or the designer suggests right away a beautiful interesting approach to that large of a space and something is mentioned that I like and hadn't thought of. This is where the rubber hits the road as far as I'm concerned. Any designer, within the brands you list can pick and choose cab sizes and get the specs for your drawers and pantry cab /etc just right...but it's that extra something-BECAUSE of the large space where you want to trust you are working with someone with vision and experience and provide More from the space than just lining up cabinet runs and inserting appliances.Bring in some pics from Houzz and see what happens. I really would not worry about which designer sells which cabs and how they spec out the brand.....the brands you list are all fine.....move to what you can "do" with your large space. I agree with what Holly said about designers. The role of a designer will vary depending on the project I do believe. I'm not sure if you have the inspiration part yet....I do think a homeowner and the space and their inspiration is better at the driving seat of a kitchen reno as opposed to the designer driving the process completely. I do know that some people are not inclined/don't educate themselves/don't have the time. I still think the homeowner educating him/herself and grasping the home and the space and having clear goals is always preferable to any other position at the outset. Some flexibility is of course necessary. How about show a pic of your space....what ideas do you have?

I understand the need to get down to the specs, I'm built that way. You want to be "responsible" in how you spend the money.
It won't work. You won't have enough info even with your spreadsheet- which factories lost the most workers during the recession, who has changed suppliers, which one pushes workers so not enough glue is put on....At some point you have to rely on who is selling it to you.

The 3 brands are well above average- non the best but certainly in the top tier. Price should go Rutt, WM, PF. You can't go wrong.

We've established you can't go wrong with the cabinets your looking for.

You could go wrong with the designer if you continue to shop for cabinets and not a person. Here is a view into the mind of a KD...

Every client I have had would tell you I "go the extra mile" both figuratively and physically. I won't give you a plan until you sign a retainer. I value what I do, design service is included NOT free. I do spend a lot of time with clients before getting a retainer, just no plans handed out. BUT-

Not everyone that walks in my door will have the same experience. I try ...but there are realities and limits.

I always assume, even encourage, folks to shop. But your priorities can determine how I approach a job. . If it appears your main criteria are either price or brand you may get less attention than someone else. Why?...

Each of us has a finite amount of time to expend on clients and must gauge effort expended versus likely return. IOW we have to decide just how badly we want your business- especially if your looking at higher end. KD's are simply human.

Some broad generalizations since everyone has to weigh all parts- price, value, quality, service, design, fit.

Client shopping price- I'm aiming for an apples to apples comparison. That usually means sticking with the layout you start with. IF I do too much I will be more expensive and won't get the job. IF I don't really care if I get the job there is no reason to put in extra effort. ( IOW unless I really like them)

Shopping brand/color/door style- these people often make the decision based on some single detail. I may have a better product, service, and value but don't have that one thing that has settled in their mind. In my experience these have the lowest closing rate of all types of shoppers- I'm only getting paid if I hit the lottery. (I track prospects in a database)

Shopping for a kitchen- these are my people, regardless of budget. Hi end, low end, middle- If it appears I can make the budget I stand a good chance of getting the job. That means I get paid. Hi input of effort to land the job. The only question "are we a good fit, will we work well together?" If we click well....

Get the idea? To get the best result try to change your mindset. I'm not saying ignore all the details, that would be impossible for me and I bet for you too. Just shift focus.

The most important parts of design go unseen when done properly.

Make a list of what the "perfect" designer would be for you. Then find one that carries a suitable brand within your budget. I often liken it to dating- we each have an ideal in mind, once we realize that does not exist we can focus on what is important in a relationship. At some point the answer comes to us, often from left field. This should be easier since you really don't want to marry the KD :)

Finally I have to say that not all KD's think like me- some only want folks that shop price, others...
Good luck

Rutt and P&F are really good bets. I agree you are over-analyzing but that's one way to try to digest this choice which admittedly is very complex.

I put in a P&F kitchen about 10 years ago. Painted finish. It's semi-custom and they were able to make all the pieces I wanted. It's held up really well. I seriously doubt they are going anywhere for a long time. It isn't the least expensive but not the most either. I wasn't going with mdf or wrapped doors -- might as well buy Ikea IMO.

If you are going for a high end reno, then I'd focus on P&F, Rutt and perhaps explore Crown Point. Between those three manufacturers you should be able to get high quality, style that you want and perhaps even a good KD. Prices will sort themselves out.

For myself, I didn't like the quality of most of the cabinets I saw, including some very high end brands with fine reputations. A lot of that has to do with the finishes and door styles.

If modern is an option then there is another whole grouping of places to look.

Having read the other thread, I see a few more details on what you are seeking. I understand the type of questions you are asking -- some people are built that way, while others have other buying/searching/decision criteria, such as emotional ones. Here's my 2 cents, having just completed a similar search as a consumer....

Having said that, I think when you complete your analysis you will find the lines you selected will all offer similar features, at varying upcharges and spec limitations (e.g, max door width without a stile). As the experts noted, you won't find this out until you are further along in a design. You might find some differences between your local custom shops and the major lines (inset bead type, paint finish variety, etc). Some things are just tougher to replicate in a smaller shop, but from what you've described from your wishlist these differences may be very small. And, I believe, anything on a wishlist is generally available, at a cost (with limitations as noted above -- some custom guys would not do beaded inset, for example. This is skill, expense and time related, however).

For my final choice, I actually did check out both local dealers of a line of cabinetry I liked and chose to get a quote from the one that had the working/operational style I liked best.

BTW, I think you forgot references and prior work examples to your list of KD. If you have a firm design vision in mind (like many of us here on GW), check out their references and see their work. Also, your GC is just as critical. Have you picked one? Having a good working relationship between the two is important as well.

Thank you all for your helpful advice. First of all, let me clarify, that I do value the kitchen designers and meeting with them a few times to gain more insight into their approach, the chemistry, any wow ideas, etc. At the same time, I do have some definite thoughts on what I want to do so I'm hoping the KD can enhance my vision and point out things that could be better done in a different way more efficiently. I am also asking for references.

I posted my list because that's the part I am having trouble with since I really want to understand the cabinets and what makes one more expensive or better quality than another. I also would like to know out of curiousity, what is different about the truly highend $250K kitchen and their cabinets vs. the brands I am looking at. Is it an exotic wood? Is it a lot of custom detailing, etc.? The extra money can't all go to the KD. It would also just confirm that I'm doing the right thing given my simple tastes even though the reno budget is less than the 15%-20% of the house but could reach six figures. I like to learn and want to understand the terms e.g., "max door without a stile" is foreign to me but I want to know what the KD is talking about to make an informed decision or to have more influence. For example, I discovered that Woodmode/Brookhaven said they used particle board for the frame and I read about MDF being higher quality than that and plywood even better. So I know that if I go with WM./BH, I will need to factor in an upgrade to plywood. This makes me wonder about all the other things on my list that I sort of know but not really and maybe things that haven't even made the list. Point well taken that there are things beyond the list that I might not know about. However, we did hear about Rutt going into bankruptcy and emerging a different company. However, that doesn't mean that I want to ignore the things I can learn about.

The comments about all of the brands, particularly P&F and Rutt being good brands is VERY reassuring and helpful. I will try to focus on them a little more. I happened to look at the Woodmode options for pulls/handles and really didn't like any and figured we would just have to buy those separate. Not sure if that would be the case for the other two. While this wouldn't be a make or break decision on any brand, if I see a trend of a bunch of things that in total are a deal breaker that would be useful to me. Maybe something like the thickness of the drawers or shelves doesn't really matter.

Iakuval, first, I hope I've clarified to you that I am looking at the kitchen designer. I did find your segmentation of buyers interesting and am not sure where I fall. Price is important but not the driving thing at least not yet. On shopping for a kitchen, Sure, we have a range of the budget but it's a pretty wide one. Once I see how the costs come in based on my "outcomes" approach of what I want in the kitchen and adding up costs, I can see where I want to cut if it seems unreasonable. On shopping brand/color/door, I think every mfgr has the style I am looking for. Therefore, I do want to compare the quality of the cabinets themselves. But true, If KD and all other things are equal, then a small thing can sway our decision,

Roco: I will check out Crown Point, though it is a late entrant. I don't want modern. We like transitional or contemporary but sometimes I've seen what I would call "modern" called contemporary. Maybe it's updated traditional? :)

Goosler thank you for the net net of what you think I will find. I operate under those assumptions until I see otherwise. We haven't chosen the GC yet. We are meeting 3 on Tues and hopefully 1 the following week a fifth seems AOL and maybe not up to the job - we want licensed and insured contractors familiar with the permits for our town

I will stat another thread when I have time and can find photos. I will call it something like "White Cabinet Kitchen Remodel Follow Up"

Thank you all for your comments! I feel so fortunate to have stumbled upon this wealth of minds/knowledge. Plus, everyone seems very welcoming.

I should add that one of the GCs has a local cabinet making arm (his wife) and the other is really a cabinet maker that added on a GC business. I really like her a lot but am worried she will retire before we sell the house and that she has perfected inset with the hinges on the outside and we want them on the inside and that we might be better off with a factory stain or finish for our trouble loving toddlers. We also think she will come in way more expensive but we'll see from the estimates.

"out of curiousity, what is different about the truly highend $250K kitchen and their cabinets vs. the brands I am looking at. Is it an exotic wood? Is it a lot of custom detailing, ..."

If by detailing you mean modifications to make it all look great then no, not detailing. Even in a good semi custom brand great detailing is possible. Good mods can add a small percentage in semi, less in better brands. Detail makes a big difference in the end; often saving installation costs. Detail is up to the KD.

Perhaps the biggest change is less of a "line" mentality and more of a kitchen as a whole. Workers will have higher skill levels and work history. There will be a section of the factory that is a group of small shops with individual cabinetmakers each completely building some part or parts of a specific kitchen. They may avail themselves of another specialist in the plant- the person doing turnings, marquetry, filigree, molding, etc.
There is greater effort to ensure the total project meets standards. A tech assigned to the job, checks drawings, offers suggestions. Sample doors are required for every job, cut in half and used to check the finish at the factory. In some cases the entire kitchen is built and finished together. Quality is checked along the way, not just at the door before loading the truck.

There will be stricter wood grading and control of moisture content, suppliers are selected for quality over price, emphasis on quality over production, superior consistency.
Delivery of higher end cabinets will be individualized-blanket wrapped, loaded on the truck and delivered by someone dedicated to that. Service from the factory and the KD should be in line with price. IF there is an issue it will be dealt with promptly and easily with a say so from the KD. (even had a fridge panel replaced gratis that was the clients fault)

In some cases "Name" is a factor.

What is possible to do does increase. While all of the brands I work with will make a cabinet based on a drawing (even my semi custom), how far they will venture from the norm varies.
At some point the catalog is only a starting point. ...any wood, custom stains, specialty finishes, custom doorstyles, any style can have any width rails, custom moldings, I have a pdf with upwards of 150 legs, another with hoods...

As price goes up brands will add "niceties" to justify the price increase- luxuries not necessities- rare earth magnets, 1" frames, past wax finish, NAUF ply standard...

The brands you are considering ALL have some of those aspects to one degree or another as do many others in that class. A lot of things have trickled down over the years due to competition.

BTW- WM framed (inset) cabinets are plywood standard, frameless are particle- BH are particle standard across the board (I sold them for years).
also..
Almost no one gets hardware from any of the mfgs. Some will offer some as included so we see that on budget jobs but there is always a credit for not using it.

Better brands will either: get whatever I ask for, install what I send or drill for it where I tell them to.

If you're going for high end I'd forget particle board and MDF. Stick with wood cabinets. If you like P&F you might like Crown Point even better. I happen to like modern because of the interior lighting and customizations. But if I was redoing my kitchen and didn't go modern, I'd only be looking at P&F (because of my good experience) and Crown Point.

I also don't care for exterior hinges showing -- one reason I liked my P&F inset door style so much.

Pirula has Crown Point cabinets as does an older poster ericanh. Pirula is around and I'm sure she would be happy to answer questions for you. Believe CP has their own design staff.

I've linked Pirula's kitchen below as it's a favorite around here.

Here is a link that might be useful: Ivette's Cherry Counter Kitchen

I'll second or third the Crown Point suggestion. Given how particular you seem to be about the details (and I totally respect that!) I'm not sure why you haven't considered them. They make lovely cabinets and are easy to work with. And you might even live close enough to visit their factory and/ or have one of their designers visit you. In my case, Crown Point came out much, much, much less expensive the P&F. No idea how this happened but they did... the one issue of course is that you have to find your own installer.

THank you both. I hadn't heard of them before. I also glanced at the site and thought that the designer help was just virtual. I like to see the actual cabinets vs. buying site unseen direct and like the fact that the other companies have a KD that can run interference for me, check the cabinets, etc. I really know almost nothing about kitchen cabinets and renos. I just googled and they are over 3 hrs away from us so it's too far for multiple trips and even hard for one trip with the kids. Maybe if this were my second big kitchen reno, I would chance them but for now, it seems too risky/complex. But thank you for the idea.

I'm still working on posting the old kitchen. I thought I did it but I don't see the thread so maybe I didn't hit submit. So frustrating, I've done that twice now.