I'm with Trebruchet on this one.

About the mesh, I honestly can't say if I remember it being there or not last time I put in countertops. It has been on most of the samples I've seen though.

I am not an expert on countertop fabrication so I can't advise you, except to say you have my sympathies and hugs with the frustrations of kitchen renovations. But what I really want to say is - WOW, that is some gorgeous stone and some gorgeous sink! Can't wait to see your finished kitchen. When you are ready, please tell us about that awesome sink. It looks custom. Have you decided on a faucet?

Edit: Oh, I just saw your other thread that it's a Rachiele sink and you've chosen a Waterstone faucet. Lovely!

This post was edited by Sahmmy on Wed, Jun 18, 14 at 8:04

I think it's interesting that the pros here consider the OPs comments "complaining" or "kvetching" whereas most of the homeowners see them as normal concerns and questions. I would be asking the same questions and I don't think she's out of line in doing so.

The edges of my counters that butt up against something that isn't covered are perfectly straight. It is certainly possible to cut a straight edge so who knows why they chose not to do so. I have a variance in the overhang where it is different on one side of the stove than on the other. I didn't "complain" or "kvetch" because I was pretty pleased with how the rest of it turned out, but it did cause a problem with the stove I'd chosen and I had to pick another. If I had that variance issue coupled with other issues as the OP does, I might be inclined to question if the fabricators had "cut corners" as well.

P.S. I really like those backsplash tiles you have picked out.

This post was edited by jellytoast on Wed, Jun 18, 14 at 10:50

Where it meets the side of the fridge cabinet, mine is smooth and tight as that edge is not supposed to be tiled or caulked.

I have typhoon bordeaux myself and I can tell you that it's a difficult stone to cut because of all the inclusions and crystals in it which have different levels of hardness and can also fall out. I believe you would have to cut the fabricators some slack because of the inherent nature of the stone. From where I sit it looks great - except for the chips which clearly need to be repaired. Your wall is not even so it would be miraculous if any fabricator could scribe the granite perfectly to the wall. Just cover it with your backsplash and you won't see a thing. But make them come back for the chips.

I feel your pain. I would be wondering too. We also have TB and all edges are perfectly straight and smooth.

It's very beautiful though! :)

Good luck

The chips are not uncommon and could/should be fixed/filled.

The mesh is normal although they should have removed and polished the underside back a few inches from the edge.

The wavy cuts at the walls should not even be mentioned, they are fine.

When this job is completed it will be gorgeous, don't nik-pik before it is completed.

Where it is a non-scribe end (butting the end panel) you would think that would have been shop cut perfectly straight and clean...other then that looks great!

Where it butts the end panel needs to be caulked and it will look great.

I am a fabricator.

The fit along your walls is nothing to complain about. These are countertops, not space shuttle parts. 1/8" variation is acceptable.

If the fabricator had adjusted the island edge to match the cabinet it probably would have been noticably crooked to your eye. I would have done it the same way he did.

The backside mesh is normal for that stone and many others and was certainly there when you looked at the slabs as the mesh is applied prior to polishing. In my shop we would have ground the mesh away in any exposed area and left a smooth to the touch honed finish but many shops, probably even the majority, do not do this as it adds hours to the shop fabricator labor.

your granite is beautiful. Be happy.

For the record, when homeowners are getting screwed by contractors I'm generally one of the first to say so. When a homeowner screwed a painter out of a countertop, I was the first and only to say so. I have admitted that I struggle with tact and tone. That said, I calls 'em as I seees 'em and will continue to do so.

First, the counters are beautiful. The only thing I don't "get" is the wavy edge next to the cabinet. Treb and oldryder, is there a reason that edge isn't perfectly straight?

Maybe the issue with the rough edge that is going to be covered up has to do with what it would cost to have it smoothed. That might not have been in the bid to install. Since it was going to be covered anyway seems like most people would rather spend that money on other finishes that would be visible.

Check your bid and see just what it included.

I just measured my granite on the left and right side of my sink. There is 1/4" difference and I've never noticed it until this thread came up. There are variances of about 1/8th of an inch in other areas. It all looks good to me and I have square edges. I wouldn't worry about it.

Get the chips fixed, back splash installed and enjoy your wonderful new kitchen!!

" ... the wavy edge next to the cabinet ... is there a reason that edge isn't perfectly straight?"

I question this as well. If other fabricators can manage to make this edge perfectly straight, why can't this one? Just because 1/8 inch variance is "acceptable" that doesn't mean they can't try to do better. For the areas that are to be hidden under a backsplash, I don't see a problem with the edges being uneven as it makes no difference, but in an area where it is very visible, why not put forth a bit of extra effort with an eye towards being aesthetically pleasing? It seems to me that making this cut straight would have been just as easy as making it crooked and would have gone a long way towards making the client happy.

The stone looks beautiful! I just had my Typhoon Bordeaux installed last week as well. I asked about the meshing underneath (why my moms granite had one and mine didn't) and was told that under my bar would have been at least partially removed and it wasn't necessary for me at least. So maybe it can be removed. Also the area next to my wall is not perfectly straight in all area and he said it was because of the nature of the stone (he told us that it wouldn't be when he measured the second time), it will be more then covered with my backslash or caulk.

Congrats on your counters they look lovely!

First of all, thanks for all of the comments. I haven't gone through a reno before and it can be hard to know what is fair expectations. Thankfully there haven't been any major disasters to date but little things, as you would expect, have happened, and all of them together have started to drive me crazy. By paying attention to the little details though my husband and I have been able to prevent some major issues from occurring. I know it will all work fine and be beautiful in the long run but we are spending a significant amount of money, and I want it to be as close to perfect as possible.

Cal - Thanks! The backsplash is Encore Crackle in Smoke. I think it is going to look great.

Romy - Thanks!

Snookums - Thanks. Everything isn't complete yet as they still need to drill holes for the faucets. I don't know if they thought they were done with repairing the chips as the GC told me that yesterday that at ~10 unrepaired chips there were still fewer chips than there were when it was first installed. We definitely didn't cheap out on the fabricator.

Christina - Thanks! You said what I was thinking that in general it seems just a little like sloppy workmanship. Thanks on the sink

Holly - I don't think I am incessantly whining about this job but you are seeing signs of reno fatigue creeping in. I can't wait until this kitchen is finished.

Sahmmy - Thanks for the sympathies and the compliments on the stone. Renos are frustrating. We did our pool at the same time, and the plaster company is coming back out to redo part of it because it wasn't done right the first time. The coping had to be redone three times too because the subcontractor wasn't doing it up to the pool company's standards. It seems like it has just been one small thing after another!

jellytoast - It is definitely the little things adding up which bothered me like you said. Thanks on the backsplash tiles - it is Encore Crackle in Smoke.

may_flowers - Good to know!

jerzee - Yes, I definitely realize that it isn't the easiest stone to cut, and don't expect complete perfection although some may think that. I do understand that it is a natural stone and you can't control everything. The sides were wavier in more places than I expected. Where you see the slab against the wall, that isn't where the backsplash is going. That is where the countertop dead ends into the wall. I know that the wall is not straight and didn't expect it to sit completely flush with the wall but thought the cut would be straighter. I definitely expect that they will be back to fix the chips.

sandesurf - Thanks! Good to know your experience.

Kev - I understand chips are part of the deal but just expected that would have been fixed initially instead of them installing it and leaving so many unrepaired chips in the island. The mesh is even on the bottom of the granite where there is only 1.5" overhang. Would you have expected them to removed that?

ajc - Thanks!

olddryder - I definitely understand that they aren't space shuttle parts. It is good to hear a fabricator's perspective that an 1/8" is acceptable. In a couple of places it is a little over that but in general it is not more than 1/8". In regards to the mesh, if I had realized that they would have left the mesh on the backside everywhere, I would have requested it be ground away as you do even if it cost additional money. Are you surprised they left the mesh on the backside of the granite even on the 1 1/2" overhangs everywhere? Thanks. I will be very happy once the kitchen is complete.

Treb - I don't think I am getting screwed. The fabricators didn't meet my expectations after the KD gave the rave reviews. I know that it was not shoddy work but there are little things that bother me.

sjhockeyfan - Thanks!

I was wondering about the stone inclusions too, which the first photo clearly shows the cut wavers there. But to ask is perfectly normal as we have all seen this *not* be the case, with the side cuts being tight, smooth, clean and straight as if they were finished. It is, afterall, a finished edge. The last shot of it looks unusually irregular, imo. Of course if caulk hides it it doesn't matter to anyone. She hasn't gotten to that point yet so cut her some slack for observing and asking about it. People being concerned about what they're purchasing is nothing unique that the construction industry has to deal with.

"When a homeowner screwed a painter out of a countertop, I was the first and only to say so."

Was that when they were climbing on it and it snapped?

I wonder if a customer had picked up your expensive tool to move it out of the way and accidentally dropped and broke it, if you would just write that off.

Funny how HO's are supposed to absorb everything, when there are contractor or project errors, while the pros complain and kvetch about customers for all sorts of things and saying the inconveniences or time waste clients cause or their mistakes and oversights will cost them extra. Large amounts of our time and money are also wasted by pros, and we often have to live with big, unneccessary blunders on their part. Maybe we should charge for all that. Discounts for everything that doesn't go smoothly.

MissAmelia - Thanks for sharing your recent experience. Did they leave the mesh on the regular overhangs? I am going to ask the fabricator about it but don't expect anything to be done about it. Thanks on the counters. I bet yours look great too!

The first set I had cut that's were mis-measured had mesh on all, except the bar the new ones none of them have it.

"The mesh is even on the bottom of the granite where there is only 1.5" overhang. Would you have expected them to removed that? "

Anywhere you can casually run your fingers along the bottom of the stone should feel smooth to the touch. Removing the mesh and smoothing the stone under the entire overhang is subject. I personally don't think it's necessary as no one typically sees or feels under there. Unless the customer request it then I may charge them extra.

I don't think I have ever had a counter installed with the mesh still intact....certainly not where it could be felt

kevdp4 - Thanks for your perspective. I can see having the mesh farther back under the overhang but not everywhere.

ajc - Thanks for sharing your experience.

I don't think you should have to *ask* for the mesh to be removed where it can be felt. I wonder if it could be cut off the 1.5" overhang. That could collect grime. I see no reason you shouldn't ask about it and have it removed where possible.

It would appear they were a bit rushed, imo. Or maybe they have someone new onboard?

Sounds like you've had your share of mishaps, which can really put you on guard. I guess I don't understand why we should need to watch over things. Very frustrating.

If I am reading this correctly this granite person seems to think the mesh is a good thing - his problem was with the fact that there were no supports under the overhang.

Here is a link that might be useful: Fiberglas mesh

""When a homeowner screwed a painter out of a countertop, I was the first and only to say so."

Was that when they were climbing on it and it snapped?

I wonder if a customer had picked up your expensive tool to move it out of the way and accidentally dropped and broke it, if you would just write that off."

snookums2:

A properly installed stone countertop should easily bear the weight of a painter without failure. I substantiated my conclusion with MIA documentation. No one rebutted my argument because they couldn't.

It is not unreasonable for a painter to expect a properly installed top to support his weight. It is unreasonable to expect a countertop to remain undamaged from dropping an expensive tool. They aren't comparable.

The fiberglas mesh on the back of fragile stones is structural in nature and can't be removed without compromising the stone.

Were I a fabricator, we could discuss cosmetic alternatives, however, removing the mesh is not negotiable on a job with my name on it.

Treb - is it fiberglass mesh on the back of my stone? I thought it was some type of resin.

"It is unreasonable to expect a countertop to remain undamaged from dropping an expensive tool. They aren't comparable."

I meant your tool was broken, not the counter.

Counters are not meant for walking. They take their chances that way.

Isixpacku - can't help with the technical, but it looks great.

Re: the mesh;

The mesh is there, along with the resin that holds it in place, to improve the structural integrity (i.e. resistance to breakage) of stone that is naturally weak. This is mostly an issue for the fabricator as once the stone is properly installed (meaning properly supported on overhangs and shimmed over cabinets) it should be very difficult to break or even crack it.

I do agree with Treb that kneeling or standing on a properly installed counter should not do any damage as long as there is no grit on the feet of whoever is on it AND that they are smart enough not to step on sink or cooktop rails or large overhangs.

Re: removing the mesh on the shorter overhangs; IMHO that should also be done but again many shops do not because it's extra labor.

I do not really understand the jaggedy edges along the cabinets. There are three primary ways a typical shop might cut the stone; a bridge saw, a CNC router bit, or a waterjet. Any of these would normally cut a very straight line. The only way I know to cut such an irregular line is with a hand saw which might have been the way this was done. Not necessarily bad but it would only be done that way in a VERY small or poorly equipped shop.

That's exactly what it looks like! A hand saw. Maybe he subbed the job out cheaply.

"I do agree with Treb that kneeling or standing on a properly installed counter should not do any damage as long as there is no grit on the feet of whoever is on it AND that they are smart enough not to step on sink or cooktop rails or large overhangs."

And that is exactly what happened there, at the front edge of the cooktop opening.

"must have somehow put some weight on the front edge of the cutout. "

On the other breakage thread, the overhang had snapped by someone sitting on it.

"A properly installed stone countertop should easily bear the weight of a painter without failure. I substantiated my conclusion with MIA documentation. No one rebutted my argument because they couldn't"

TB, your memory has revised that thread. There was a very good rebuttal to your argument there.

I don't have Typhoon Bordeaux, it is Typhoon Blue. Very beautiful. My understanding is that any "granite" with a grain is not really granite but a different stone. I am far from an expert, but "granite" with a grain is backed with a mesh to prevent cracking/splitting. I just checked, the backing was not removed from the overhang. Without this thread, I probably would never have noticed, and I still don't care. All the end cuts were polished and are very straight. The installers apologized that they couldn't do a better match at the rear of the sink joint. I think they did a great job with a busy stone. I love my Typhoon Blue in spite of the pattern problems. After all, it is a natural product from the early history of the planet Earth.

Oldryder/snookums - you hit the nail on the head with your handsaw comment. I found out today from the GC that they had brought out the pieces that had the wavy edges a little longer than necessary and then cut them down on site with a handsaw. He said that is how this fabricator typically does things. Is that normal?

I met with the KD and GC today to discuss the job in general. The KD is going to discuss the island chips and mesh with them. I know the chips will be fixed and don't know what will happen with the mesh.

My husband and I were standing around the kitchen this evening talking and I was leaning on the countertops. I discovered that I naturally wrap my fingers underneath the counter most of the time. I definitely do notice and am bothered by the texture of the mesh but if that is the biggest mistake in my new kitchen, I will be doing alright.

Oldryder - in the shop, what is the process to remove the mesh from the short overhangs? Is it something that could be done while the granite is installed?

" I found out today from the GC that they had brought out the pieces that had the wavy edges a little longer than necessary and then cut them down on site with a handsaw. He said that is how this fabricator typically does things. Is that normal?"

It may be normal and typical for "this fabricator" but I don't understand why he would have to do that if he did his templating correctly. To hand-cut an exposed edge like that just looks sloppy.

Why bother with templating if you're going to make the runs too long and then cut on site?

isixpacku: in the fab shop the mesh is removed either by the CNC (parts are typically processed upside down) or by hand with an angle grinder.

It would be very very difficult to do it on site; it would create a huge wet mess and require the worker to work upside down. If we had to do it we'd probably remove the tops and do it outside.

I have mesh under my light colored quartzite which was installed a few weeks ago. My fabricator did remove the mesh from under the counter top front overhang, just where I would be able to feel. I also have a 2 tier counter (bar height top) they removed and smoothed out about 4 inches of the overhang on the bottom front part and left the mesh on the rest. I can view it by looking under but I don't really look underneath all that often. It doesn't bother me knowing it's there at all and I am so picky about everything.

I wouldn't want to have that mess going on with trying to remove the mesh in place. I'd also be very nervous with them removing counters and doing it some where else. That all sounds like a nightmare. My luck they would end up cracking the stone or ruin the cabinets or both. I'd leave it as is. Your counters are beautiful.

Unless you spend a lot of time under the counter, I think you are whipping yourself into an unnecessary frenzy. Look at the beauty of the top of your granite and know that it has extra protection underneath because of the mesh.

I just wanted to update that the granite fabricator came out today. They drilled the holes for the faucets, soap dispenser, and air switch. They also ground off the mesh on the short overhangs and about 1 1/2" on the large overhang. I am happy with both of those outcomes.

They also worked on repairing the chips in the island but I came home tonight and found that there are still about 5 or 6 spots that didn't get fixed. So unfortunately that means that they will need to make a trip back out.

Also, they caulked the uneven edges where the granite butts up against the cabinets and side wall. They will need to come back to redo part of that as part of it is missing caulk. I am also waiting for the caulk to finish drying as right now it looks terrible because the caulk is white. I hope it looks significantly better when it is dry, as I am assuming they used a clear caulk.

At least we are headed in the correct direction with the countertops.

Whenever I use silicone (clear) caulk, it's clear even when it's wet ... it doesn't go on white and dry clear. IMO, they should have used a matching caulk, especially if they are trying to "disguise" their rough edges. Using a white caulk there is just going to make it look worse. Why do I feel like I am stating the obvious here? Can you post a picture of the countertop edge where it meets the cabinet? I'm curious to see what it looks like "finished."

I think I read here about clear starting out white but my plumber used clear silicone around the sink and it went in clear.

I think you are having some unnecessary problems on your job, with a lack of attention to detail. Is this the same company doing the tile?

I am not an expert, nor am I particularly experienced. But reading through this thread was enlightening, and I gotta say, I think those wavy edges that meet the wall are very unprofessional, way beyond tolerance for a wall that will not be tiled, and, like jellytoast, appalled that they would squeeze that much caulk in there clear or not.

It makes me more and more appreciative of the folks who did my counteryops, and they were contracted by Home Depot! I have a 26" slab of quartz on my last cab between the stove and wall and all edges are as professionally done as the rest of them, just as I expected.

If it were my kitchen I think I would ask for them to redo that end, even if it means splicing in a new piece maybe 18" wide or whatever. We spend good money on our counters and should be able to expect better than that. Of course that would mean another seam, not sure which is worse.

Of course that would mean another seam, not sure which is worse.

I'd much rather have good seam than a bad wavy edge!

^^ Yeah. Me too.

I will post pictures tonight after I get home from work. I glanced at the counters this morning, and the caulk was drying clear but the thicker caulk was not clear yet. We used caulk in the bathroom recently that went on white and dried clear. There were parts of the dried caulk where it looked like you could see the rough edges through the caulk. I just have to look at it in more detail tonight.

snookums - The granite fabricator is not the same company that is doing the floors. The floors were done by a sub through the GC. The granite fabricators were picked by the KD, and she's worked with them for several years. I am questioning her attention to detail as she said she had never really noticed before that granite could have chips in it like our island did. After I told her about ours she went home and discovered that she had them in the granite in her house and just never noticed.

I am hoping that the wavy edge looks tolerable once the caulk is all dried. Some of the fabricators on GW seem to indicate that the wavy edges were normal and shouldn't be something I should complain about.

"Some of the fabricators on GW seem to indicate that the wavy edges were normal and shouldn't be something I should complain about."

Personally, I'd complain about it. There is no good reason that an exposed edge should be so rough and uneven.

"Whenever I use silicone (clear) caulk, it's clear even when it's wet ... it doesn't go on white and dry clear."

jellytoast:

That's because you're using 100% clear silicone. These guys are using clear latex caulk which may or may not have silicone in it. It applies white and dries clear.They use it because if they get it on a surface to be painted, it is paintable, unlike 100% silicone.