"no longer have a drawer I have to whack with my hip to close." - does this mean you broke the drawer?

My first suggestion on how to avoid disaster is to live more in the dining room. This is my own idea. I read that the house is generally dark, you use the bkfst area (nook) a lot, have no big budget for serious changes, want to keep the DR, and have a mirror in the nook.

I think there is not much you can do to change the kitchen.

LOL... davidrol ... no I didn't break the drawer! It's so ancient (50 years) that it's been shaving wood off the sliders and is hard to close. More like it is breaking ME.

I am no good when it comes to looking at possible layouts, my mind does not work that way =) but I like your idea's to make the existing space better. A set of drawers near the cooking area would be great especially if you get full extension drawers. Recessing the fridge seems like a good way to gain more room too.

What way are you leaning for cabinets? Ikea Adel is pretty and somewhat cottagey and they have a lot of the features you want, tall cabinets, pullouts, and a great rail system that makes installation a breeze or so I read! =)

Being on a budget IMHO is a good thing because it forces you to think outside the box and helps you narrow choices. I'm sure you know all about craigslist so just know your measurements and don't be afraid of DIY. As you know a can of paint is magic and can transform all sorts of things.

At one time when I was in the crazy cabinet configuration process I had thought of those bookshelves on either side of my fridge too. Lowes had a 12" x 78"? shelving tower in their closet section that I considered using since it was about $30 bucks! I wanted them narrow to keep traffic flow moving. It would've needed a coat of paint to match my cabinet choice but hey- less than what the cabinet company would charge. Your breakfast area is tight so narrow depth stacked wall cabinets might work best too.

I think you have a great start of what you want and look forward to seeing the changes.

Thanks Neverending -
re: cabinets - I have two cabinet makers/builders bidding on putting in customer cabinets. I started at Home Depot but the odd spaces in the kitchen meant I would have lots of filler space. And I dont need to waste my limited space on fillers. KWIM?
I wonder if a cabinet builder let me use prefab bits in conjunction with their build? (like the lowe's cabinet you found)

hi Karen - I really like your colors and the changes you have already made - your home looks warm and cottage-y. I had drawers that deposited sawdust on the dishes below, so I feel your pain. I guess the good news is you don't have to question the wisdom of buying new!

I have nothing to offer re:layout, not my talent, but I will offer that the ventilation thing has been important in our remodel - I love the new level of fresh air return we have and wish we had done it sooner! Good luck - I would think a cabinet builder would do whatever you want if you want to integrate prefab stuff, though I find that shelves etc. are things they LIKE to do and some will do for a song, esp. if you finish them yourself. Ask them - we once had a GC build a custom built-in oak shelving unit in the bathroom for $100 because he had a lot of leftover oak.

Anyway, best of luck to you!

Very smart to go custom. I went that route too and am doing my own finishing. I was able to get exactly what I wanted all along the way just by asking if it was possible, and lo and behold - yes! It wouldn't hurt to ask.
I have an existing floor to ceiling pantry cabinet I asked if it could be cut down from 24" deep to 6-9"deep and repurposed and turned sideways on the other side of my fridge surround. Yesterday after thinking about it he said yes, no problem. =)

To expand upon davidro1's suggestion, have you considered just making the breakfast area part of the kitchen and then using the dining room more for daily life? You'd gain a lot more space for kitchen cabinets that way. You could even have the door to the dining room made larger so it doesn't feel so separated.

Another thought is to add an overhang and seating to the back side of the peninsula. You'd have to sacrifice some space in the den but we didn't get a shot of how the den was laid out. You'd gain full use of the breakfast area for storage that way.

And finally, here's my unusual suggestion. My mother lives in a fairly small house with a kitchen/eat-in/family room laid out very similar to yours (minus your dining and living rooms in front). She regularly has guests but rarely needs space for more than one or two in the living room and frequently needs space for six to eight in the dining area. The two rooms were proportionally the opposite of what she needed. She would often set up a dining table in the living room and then tear it down later. I suggested to her that she permanently swap them. Now she leaves the dining table set up in the living with plenty of space for guests and she has a small cozy lounge area in the former dining space. It's big enough for two or three comfy chairs. SHE LOVES IT! So, my suggestion is that you consider repurposing the spaces you have to see if they fit your lifestyle better.

Thanks for the posts, all.
Grumpy Dave - it has been suggested to me to enlarge the kitchen into the breakfast area and use the dining for our eating area. And I suppose that IS the LOGICAL thing to do. Except that the dining room is very formal and open also to the formal LR. Which we do use, if not as often. And I like the change of pace from casual to formal, especially at the holidays. And on sunny mornings when I relax in the LR to escape kids and read. Plus, it would really separate the people eating from the people who are lounging in the den playing games or watching tv. The rectangle of den, kitchen, breakfast is really the heartbeat of the house.
More stubborness from me - so sorry - the kitchen actually DID have a small bar when I first bought the house. But the den is only 14-15 feet across AND the only place I have a wall (stupid house) is directly across from the kitchen. Meaning that's the only place for the TV. Meaning the sofa ended up pushed underneath the bar. After worrying friends would sue me from banging their heads on the bar ... I took it out. (Thoroughly enjoyed whacking that sucker too, my rare DYI moment).
Yes. It seems I have forced myself into using the same floor plan. Just trying to figure out how to avoid screwing it up more than it already is.

will that be enough counter and cabinet space for the 2 of you? have you weeded out duplicates and stuff unused yet? (dishes, pots/pans, utensils)

if you push the fridge back (how much would you put into the garage area?) you could put shelves/cabs along either side of it. books on one side and a pantry area on the other. they don't have to be wide or deep (sized like the pic of bk shelves you posted). you could even probably run a shelf across the top of the fridge area for more storage. if you don't think you need the whole height of one side for books, have a door put on the lower half (or third) for more pantry area.

Is your fridge big enough? too big? if you think you might want a bigger one someday be sure to allow space for it during this change (cover with a filler strip).

that would really open the center of your kitchen up - and from sink area to table area. that'd be great!

for me, that be plenty big enough for a family of 2 (but that's me - I seldom cook). I understand the want of the kitchen table where it is - view into den, eye and voice contact (w/o yelling) with dd and friends etc. I'd prefer it just for me - where I could sit at the table and have my breakfast and still eye the TV news...

If there's space in the garage this would be the time to have some inexpensive cabs put in out there (laundry area?) for pots/pans etc seldom used and extra pantry area. reuse some from the kitchen maybe?

For your amusement, here are some other things I've considered...

1. Have a solatube installed that to bring natural light in through the wall of the breakfast room. It can only be circular, so it would look like a porthole of light.
2. Replace the ceiling soffit between the kitchen and den with short cabinets for those holiday dishes that rarely get used. On the kitchen side install glass doors so they look like windows. On the den side, keep it painted yellow so it looks like it does now and helps frame the view of the kitchen.
3. Put a slightly higher cabinet to the right of the cooktop to hold the wall oven so that we don't have to lean down like we would with the oven under the cooktop. But then the pan handles would have nowhere to go.
4. Extend the peninsula cabinets 12" past the beam. On the bottom build a side-facing cookbook bookbase. On top of the bookcase, from countertop to ceiling, build a double-sided glass cabinet with a light in it using the beam as a part of the side wall so that it is camoflagued without blocking natural light from the patio window.
5. In the cabinets that I imagine lining the breakfast room wall to the recessed fridge, add an opening for the microwave. Then when the item is warm, it's close to the table for serving!
6. Have a breakfast table custom built that is narrower, less feeling squished, that also has a hidden extension panel we can pull out to make the table longer when more kids are over.
7. Embrace the cavelike feeling of the breakfast area and install a wall fireplace there.

Ok. Better stop before you think I'm really crazy.

I think you sound more creative than crazy! Without wanting to think too deeply at night, I'm not sure how most of those would work (some sound tricky), but what's wrong with #1? I'd love to have a solatube in my kitchen!

Desertsteph - good questions. Thank you.

Regarding how the space works for a family of two.... what's funny is I have some friends who live in this same kitchen with a family of SIX. Yes - their SxS hangs over into the breakfast area a LOT but they still squeeze everyone at the table somehow. It's crazy, but it works. Mom complains like me tho. :)

That said, I think the fridge could push into the garage 15-20" and still be able to park the car. My current fridge is 21 cf, but I've thot about getting slightly bigger, mostly thinking of future resale, esp if I build the fridge into the space. I've been looking at french, but they seem to cost a lot more for sometimes less storage. The SxS models are a LOT cheaper than the french - I've just heard bad things about them. Plus we DO eat frozen pizza and I want it to fit. I've been thinking a counterdepth would be best tho because if I can only recess about 15", then only about 12" would extend into the kitchen. Based on things people have posted, I'm starting to wonder if a bottom freezer with a single door on top would be better. Esp if it opens towards the table, where the food and drinks usually end up. Not sure on this yet.

I agree re: garage cabinets. If I can afford it, I would like to put cabinets in the garage. At a minimum, replacing the plastic shelves just outside the kitchen door. It's a good place to store my small appliances that are not often used or the paper goods.

I really hope no one will mind all the brain dump I may do here. I've been thinking about all of this for SO long (years) and no one to talk about it with. For some reason teen boys dont really care!

In other words... THANKS

I like what you have done and your other suggestions you posted.
My thoughts:
1. We love our solatube. It seems "on" all the time, so it takes a while not to try to shut it off when you leave the room. It adds a lot of light... If you have the room, a skylight that opens is even better...
2. You seem to dedicate a decent amount of space to cookbooks in your plan, when you may not use them all or at least don't need more than one at a time out. I'd relegate them elsewhere if possible. Perhaps, if you do a shelf up high over your pass through, (or along any of the soffits) that would be a good place for them to not be in the way and for a reasonable price. Shelves cost little.
3. I like the idea of a smaller table with room to expand. I'd round off the corners just a little though.

dianalo - I can't put a skylight (or the solatube) through the ceiling as my son's bedroom is right above the space. This is a 1.5 story home. Only option is for the solatube to come in through the attic space above the garage and then curve into the wall of the breakfast niche. I can't figure out how to make the circle of light blend well and not look like a flashlight shining into our faces tho! Maybe if it broke into the wall about table top level instead of high up? Hmmm. Since you have one and are more familiar with how they look/work, your ideas would be very appreciated.

I like your thoughts re: the cookbooks. I don't use them all that frequently - they are just an obsession which for now is taking up space in my hall closet and I want to reclaim it! I will def keep your idea in mind. If I added extra cabinet space on the end of the peninsula, it might be more practical as a spice rack or something else we frequently use.

thanks thanks thanks.

ok. I kept thinking about davidro1 and grumpydave's attempts to use my dining room more. And the thing is, I have been thinking about updating the look of formal rooms to a cross of formal and contemporary. My biggest craving is to paint wide horizontal brown stripes across the large wall of the DR that is visible from the LR. Kind of like this:
{{gwi:1719079}}

The DR is only 10x9 so there isn't much space for more than the table. BUT -- I could have floor to ceiling cabinets put in the CORNERS of the room and use those to offload some of my more rarely used kitchen items at the same time I update the look. I could use glass front doors and extend the stripes into the back of the cabinets. Or I could have solid doors to hide my JUNK and paint them white...or white with stripes! lol Either way it would use the dining space a bit more efficiently and give me more storage. Yes! Keep me thinking even when I sound stubborn.

Is that a window between the living room and family room?

Judging by the floor plan you could put cabinets or bookshelves on that wall and still have plenty of space to walk by. You could cover the whole wall between the two doors and frame around the window. Or just place a freestanding unit like an armoire between the window and the door to the dining room. That would solve your cookbook storage problem and give some extra space for lesser used items too within easy reach of the kitchen.

Hi, Karen,
I just discovered your new posting from the other one and am glad you posted up photos.

We also have a modest size kitchen and it is always tradeoffs, isn't it? We are also removing soffits to pick up some of that less-used storage.

I would think you could decorate your dining room so that it could be used daily but then dressed up for the holidays with linens and accessories to make it special. But that is a personal decision.

using the DR is good for your children. Later in life they don't begrudge you for only using the DR for more important people.

I'm no layout guru, but here's my 2 cents about using the dining room...

I have a similar layout: eat-in kitchen but the eat-in space is honestly a little too cramped, and a separate "formal" dining room off the kitchen. When we moved to this house 3 years ago, we planned to eat our everyday meals in the kitchen, but ultimately decided that we really liked using the dining room on a daily basis. Our dining room is somewhere in between casual and formal, I feel like it can go either way. Holidays and parties are still special because we decorate and use a special tablecloth, dishes, etc. So I definitely recommend thinking about it!

Karen, You'll figure it out. Is that wall in between the DR & LR large enough to place the kitchen table? You could pull it out for more people, then push it against the wall when not using it. Then you could continue cabinets all along the left wall in the kitchen. Right now you have the advantage that you could try it, before doing anything. Maybe even a narrow dropleaf table would work to not block traffic. The cookbooks could go on shelves over the W/D?

In a space challenged home, it makes little sense to dedicate space to rooms that are only used 5% of the time. If you only use your living and dining rooms for holiday events, then you are paying a whole lot of mortgage and utilities for only 75% of your home's square footage. You might as well buy a smaller home and go to restaurants a couple of timrs a year. It'd be cheaper than paying for space you don't use. :)

Or else you decide you are going to use all of your home year round. Start using that dining room for every day meals right now. It will get you used to the idea and let you see how reclaiming the space could open up your cramped kitchen.

And while you are at it, think of some other type of room that you wish you had, and think about repurposing that living room also. We made ours a library/office with tons of bookshelves and a couple of comfy reading chairs.

Reclaim you unused spaces is the first step in any home rethink.

BTW, you cannot use a bathroom fan above a range. Any fan used above a range has to have a grease capture method and some way of cleaning that grease. It's a fire safety issue, and you don't want to have a fire ruin your brand new kitchen.

One more thing about the exhaust fan. Broan makes two bathroom type fans for kitchen use. One is the L300 KMG. The "K" stand for kitchen. You need to purchase a $10- grease filter made for it.

My thoughts on the DR stripped pattern you've shown above, I think your room would be too small to carry this off. It is a beautiful picture though. In my brief experience with my kitchen remodel I found that any boldness was too much for the space. I felt like I had to get some distance from intense and bold, but in the small space it was always there, too close for me. That is why I chose not to paint my trim a white. I love seeing white trim with a beautifully painted room. In my small kitchen it created too much contrast. But, I love contrast. I guess another way for me to describe how it works for me visually, is that I don't get enough breathing space with high contrast or boldness in a small space. Very good thread, keep it up.

thanks for all the wonderful feedback.
@ljwrar - VERY helpful info on the exhaust fan. I looked that up right away. And how inexpensive too! Glad this is in option in our local building code.

Regarding the formal dining - I understand the logic and appreciate the encouragement, but we really prefer to have an eating space in the den/kitchen area. The dining room is too separate from the family room and kitchen. Besides, we really LIKE have an eating area that looks more dressed up. I cant explain it. just like it. We sometimes do eat in there ourselves on regular days, but hey, didn't you ever do things in your own house that other people thot weren't logical but made you happy? :)
(And yes, I could probably live in a smaller house but I'm USED to this one! And selling / buying seems too scary.)

@enduring - good points re: boldness. The stripes would be in the dining room, not the kitchen. Was thinking of how to use the dining room (build in more cabinets for the stuff I dont use much) and I just got carried away, so sorry I confused anyone. The kitchen I agree, should be more simple, esp since it's so close to the family living area.

Re: use of den space for tables and storage - when sofa/chairs are not under the den/LR window (which I love), then they are pulled up to form a walkway. I do have bookcases there sometimes, even though it does make the walkspace tight for us chubbies. :) It's a horribly designed house. Not sure why I like it. But I guess I've lived here so long I'm used to it's flaws.

Another idea I thot of today was to replace the garage door with an opaque window door (they make them fireproof, I checked). That might catch a bit of the light from the garage space (which has an exterior door with windows) and make the space FEEL bigger. Anyone ever done that?

BTW, for those not too annoyed with me yet (for refusing to dump the breakfast space), one of the cabinet builders is coming tomorrow. Says he has a few ideas. Can't wait to hear them.

I'm chiming in to say hello, and perhaps offer some naughty advice...

I love the tall funky cookbook bookcase *cough* It just has a ton of character and is way fun. It'll also be nice to get your closet back, one way or another. If it is a choice between cookbooks and spices, though, I'd have to prioritize the spices. Storage space for spices is one of the things that makes me crazy in my kitchen.

I have a tiny house, complete with tiny kitchen and something I call the DR but you might call the breakfast room. I'm seriously considering a banquette with pantries in that space in my remodel to unify it with the kitchen space and provide more storage. Sort of on the fence with it, though, as it would really lock in decorating in that room for eternity, but here's a fun inspiration pic to go with yours:

I totally agree with GreenDesigns about finding ways to really utilize all of your space. In a small home, it's really a sacrifise to create the luxury of seldom used rooms. I don't think that has to mean sacrifising the breakfast room or the formal DR/LR but it's an important question to ask. What could change in those spaces that would make them inviting, livable spaces for you and your son throughout the year? Though maybe small is relative - I can't imagine having a formal LR and DR in my small house.

Steph2000 - lol - my house is 1700-1900 sq ft total and that includes 4 beds/2 baths. All the rooms are fairly small. My "formal dining" is about 10x9. FL is, I think, 15x11?
That said, please realize that we DO use the FL. Not as much as the den tho cuz that's where the tv and xbox live. The dining room, ok, not used as much. But I love having one!

As for the photo, I saw this elsewhere in the forum and really liked it. It is similar to what I am thinking of doing in the bkfst nook. But because the space is shaped differently, I am toying with having the table jutting out from between the cabinets, with bench seating on one wall and moveable chairs on the other. Guess I've been practicing that look in my current space (sans cabinets) and compared to other layouts I tried before it seems to work well.

My son and his friends sometimes plop there to talk while I'm in the kitchen (if it's not their turn on the xbox!)I like that the arrangement makes them feel comfortable talking to "just the mom".

I feel like you all will perceive me as just closed minded and be annoyed. But I do appreciate your thoughts and the input.

Over the years I've considered
- moving the family room to the FL space and putting larger dining into the den so that the kitchen/bkfst could be all kitchen.
- losing one of the two car spaces in the garage and expand the kitchen out there.
- moving the door to the DR over a bit and building a galley kitchen
- flipping the bkfst and kitchen spaces
-removing the peninsula and using the den as a LARGE family/eating area
- removing the peninsula, losing the bkfst area, and put a table where the peninsula used to be and the den furniture besides/in front of it to indicate a separate space.

One issue is the cost because a lot of those ideas really need that stupid beam removed to not look stupid. And I simply am not that rich, do not have friends/relatives who are GCs, and am no good at DYI. sigh.

Now I'm depressing myself. Maybe I should just sell this house and move.

Karen, I think there are really two questions people are asking.

One, is would you consider using your table in the dining room more, or even daily.

The other is, must it be a regular table that you sit at in the breakfast room, and with the configuration you have now. I am hearing suggestions of a banquette with built-in cupboards around it. Also, there have been some pretty innovative "islands" with seating on this site. Islands are expensive if you need to plumb them for a sink or put electric on them, but less so if it is straight prep space.

colorfast - a table with seating surrounded by built in cupboards could def fit in my plans.

If you turned the breakfast table 90 degrees and put your mirror on the wall to the left and made two backless benches (or use a different table set), could you open up the space on former mirror wall for plunk space + narrow open shelving? Put that interesting cabinet and display space throughout that wall. You could even make a long banquette along that wall with display cabs above. You can tuck the hall-side bench under the table when not in use and it will be out of the walkpath to dining room unless in use and pulled out into the walkpath. Put a one person seat at open end of table but perhaps pull up a second seat stored elsewhere if kids are sitting there.

Karen, you don't seem closed-minded to me, it sounds like you have considered lots of creative ideas. If using your dining room for everyday meals is just not what you want to do, good for you that you are already sure about that. When I posed about it, I did not realize that you had considered and rejected that idea.

So for your eating space in the kitchen, how do you usually serve your food? What I mean is, do you bring bowls/platters to the table and then serve family style there, or do you plate in the kitchen and just bring the plates to the table? I ask because I think that if this were my space, I would consider a smaller table along with built-ins, but that might not work well if you prefer to have serving at your table.

I also like the idea that a previous poster mentioned of an island with seating. You could gain storage space in the island plus more countertop prep space when no one is eating there. Is that sort of thing in the realm of possibility?

Karen, What about converting from an "L" to a galley? I don't have exact dimensions but gleaning what I could from your drawings I made the attached mock-up. A few things to keep in mind:

1 - In this layout the "height" of the kitchen gets pulled in which makes the former breakfast area larger. The mock-up shows a 60 inch walkway through the kitchen which buys you 1 foot in the new den. You may be able to go with a 48 inch walkway and get 2 feet in the den which would be huge!

2 - You are not constrained by where the post is. In the mockup the post is no longer part of the cabinet run and it gives you an idea of how much space you gained in both the kitchen and the new den. You can build the post out a little bigger(!) to make it more decorative.

3 - The cabinet runs extend to the right a few feet beyond where the peninsula is now because you have the wallspace before hitting the window/door in the current den. You're gaining kitchen space there.

4 - The new eat-in area will be much brighter near the big window in the former den.

5 - The new den will be darker, save for good lighting, but that's not all bad if watching TV is a primary activity.

6 - Flat panel TVs make for for more flexible layouts that weren't possible a few years ago. Less room is needed for the TV area now. I *think* I see that you already have one so you're set. You can still watch while cooking too!

7 - The glaring concern is the cooktop so near the sofa, but I think you're already dealing with that today so details need to be worked out.

8 - You could incorporate the galley idea with keeping the current den/eat-in configuration, but this layout does help with the brightness problem you complained of.

9 - DON'T LET THE PERFECT (getting rid of the post and beam) GET IN THE WAY OF THE GOOD (having a much better kitchen). You might think a lot of your previous ideas won't look right with that beam and post left in there, but I guarantee that a better kitchen is a better kitchen even with a few quirks.

{{gwi:1906991}}

grumpydave - Wow! Interesting!!! That's an idea I and numerous KD types had not come up with. SOMETHING NEW TO THINK ABOUT! Very creative! Let me ponder on that for a bit. (Can you see my head nodding in appreciative thought?) :)

BUT while I ponder I'm going to ask a question about the best cabinet design for the last cabinet in the window/sink wall that extends over the peninsula. Current design. Since there is room for a double cabinet on the upper, it seems the rightmost cab will be hard to access over a peninsula. Would it be goofy to put a corner unit there instead? Or some other configuration?

florantha - is this kind of the idea you had?
{{gwi:1906992}}

I've turned my BR table 90 degrees and placed the bench against the main BR wall. Imagine cabs over the top. I dont think I could put floor to ceiling cabs beside a bench as the space is only about 80". Only the skinny kids could sit in the space leftover for seating then! :)
But is this the idea?

ok... cabinet guy just left.

He felt the best option was to keep the same basic footprint and extend cabinets across the breakfast room wall. He also felt the idea of recessing the fridge into the garage was a reasonable option that wouldn't eat up too much of my meager budget. Actually, I think he was just relieved that I no longer wanted to build out into the garage space.

Now I have to figure out the cabinet / drawer arrangements and such. Like the old saying... the devil is in the details.

I did like his idea that I push the cooktop further to the right so that I have more countertop to work on between sink and stove. Didn't think about that.

Karen, I've been reading your replies on the "drawer" thread and it brings up point #10 which I didn't mention above...

#10 - In that galley kitchen layout there's not a single inch of wasted or hard-to-get-at space. You don't need tricky and expensive cabinets because there are no corners.

FWIW, I tried moving the lower line of cabinets up another foot in the mock-up and it really makes the current eat-in area large. Right now you have a 10x10 kitchen and a 7' wide eat-in minus some space stolen by the fridge. With the galley you could wind up with approximately an 8x13 kitchen and a 9' wide eat-in. It basically redistributes some of the space from the den to the eat-in while the kitchen stays roughly the same square footage but far more usable.

I would also point out that the flow from the garage door to the stairs in the upper right area is better, although I don't know if that's a primary traffic area or not. The only downside is that the flow from the kitchen to the formal dining room is worse but since you only use it on occasion it's not a big deal.