Where does DH do his BBQing... another words, where is the outdoor space the BBQ is in, in relation to this layout

DH will BBQ out the sliding door on the right of the plan. There is a patio there.

I would want my main sink closer to my cooktop. That was a good point brought up to me. When I cook, I like to be able to easily place things in the sink. Do you have a separate pantry or are the tall cabs by the frig for pantry use?

Salal, for the inner dining area, instead of a standard table and chairs you won't use most of the time, how about a comfy upholstered seating area close to the cook? With maybe a handy lower table for nibbles, too. We had a thread on this not too long ago, and it turned out a number of people were doing that.

Remodelfla, I was hoping for a set of fridge/freezer drawers just to the left of the sink, otherwise I would set it to the left more. I want the fridge drawer to hold salad items and the freezer drawer to hold cooking ingredients like chicken stock and leftover bits of tomato sauce, and all the other things I freeze for future use that get lost in the regular fridge's freezer.

Thanks for the suggestion Rosie, I think it's a good one and it has me thinking. Do you remember the subject of the thread so I could have a look?

Thanks for your replies, I really appreciate it.

I forgot to mention that it seems to me, the way the counter is broken up and the water supply being the cleanup sink to the right of the stove, in all likelihood most work would take place between the stove and main sink, not behind you at the chopping block. You have a great deal of experience in how you like to work, but that's the way it would work for me, which would be a shame with all that space potentially available.

The handwashing sink sounds intriguing, and it's nice to see somebody doing something different, but, again depending on how you guys work, if you stay with this general layout it occurs to me it might be better even farther from the chopping block to discourage any tendency for someone to use it for cleaning veggies, filling mixing cups, et cetera.

I don't think it'll work with the dainty little sink. No guy is going to use that when a perfectly good kitchen sink is nearby.

Plus the distance from the ref to the sink used for food preparation is a bit long. The ref doors and the oven or the run of cabinets have (can't tell which way the ref opens) can all run into each other.

The new dining area at the top is a little small (7.5 feet wide) for a full dining set..

I am wondering if you have tried a version with the back "L" of storage and range with an double sided island in place of the two peninsulas? Like five feet by nine feet? Larger bar/hand washing sink/alternate prep area. Can do maybe 5x3 wood block top on one end. Perhaps build the shelving around the outside perimeter and do two comfy upholstered chairs and a larger bistro table instead of seating for 4 to 6.

If you try this, suggest you try moving your oven to the outer edge (like the side of the tall, narrow cabinet next to the ref) to help eliminate door circus. There are several variations available for placement of the oven.

I forgot to reply to Remodela's 2nd question, I don't have a pantry.

Rosie, the butcher block counter won't be for chopping, just kneading yeast and pasta doughs. And, it's a great area for unloading groceries. It will be two feet longer than it is now and all the bags should fit on top for unloading into the fridge and pantry shelves.

You're right Rosie, I do use the area between the stove and sink for prep work, I find it perfect for mise en place. I have my eye on a very large chopping block that's so gorgeous I can leave it out all the time. And, that area will be two feet bigger as well!

Thanks for the double sided island suggestion Bmorepanic, it's the first thing the KD suggested. However, it allows two great views of the kitchen, one from each of the dining areas and DH doesn't like dinner guests to see the mess I've made in the kitchen while they are eating. We rarely entertain, 3-4 times a year and almost always family and I've tried pointing out I wouldn't invite anyone to dinner who minded a messy kitchen but he's pretty firm on this one. I'd like to have dinner guests more often as it would give me bigger chances to cook but DH is pretty much a hermit.

The fridge/stove/sink triangle is withing the suggested total but you're right about the fridge being a bit of a hike from the sink. And, at 11' it exceeds the recommended max for any of the triangle legs. That's why I'd love to have the fridge/freezer drawers right at the sink.

Thank you very much for mentioning the Door circus, I hadn't thought of that. It's not a problem with the fridge (it has right hinges) but I hadn't thought of the wall oven potentially clashing with the pantry doors. I will definitely check to make sure the corner cupboard is out far enough. The top of that corner cabinet I want to have a lazy susan where the door pushes into the cupboard so tha shouldn't interfere with the oven.

thanks again!

I wouldn't want the sink any closer to the cooktop...if it's too close, the person at the sink will bump into the person at the cooktop. As to being close enough to the sink for dirty dishes...since the cooktop & sink are on a connected cabinet run & they really aren't that far apart, I think you're fine.

I also question whether that small sink will ever get used... How will you handle the need for soap & a towel at the sink?

Just a few thoughts...

I'd consider moving the dishwasher to the left of the sink. Where it is, the door will block the entry into the kitchen and could pose a potential hazard when the door is open. You could put your fridge/freezer drawers to the right of the sink instead. They won't be open as much or as long at a time, so they wouldn't be in the way.

I'd put bench seating against the window in the nook. That area is very small for a regular table and chairs, so eliminating the need for space to push out chairs on one side could buy you some much needed space. I think it could also look quite charming.

Also, the little sink is cute, but a regular old prep sink there would seem a lot more useful. It could be accessible from the end for hand washing or the other side for your baking, and you could include a soap dispenser in the counter. You would also have a bit more cabinet space.

I don't know what kind of environment you're in, but would maybe adding a sink outside to go with the barbecue help resolve the handwashing thing along with easily rinse other things right there and not have to drag it back and forth?

Thanks very much for the replies. Buehl I'll give the link below for the sink that's currently in the running. It has a small countertop for soap and a towel rail. Not exactly the "feature" or object de art I was going for but should be functional. I would much rather incorporate it into the countertop there but don't want the hassel of constantly having to protect the butcher block from the water.

You are right Holligator, the dishwasher where it is does prove to be a hazard, I have the perpetual bruises on my shins to prove it. But the new entrance will be wider than it is now and I hope that will help. Can't really put it to the left of the sink because the dishes go in the wall cabinets on either side of the cooktop and the open DW door would block access to the one on the right. I think bench seating on the window side of the nook is a great idea, thanks very much!

Lyfia, I'm hoping (if we survive this reno) to do a minimalist outdoor kitchen, just a step up from a hot plate and a hose as accessories to the BBQ. But that won't be for another year probably. Although we BBQ year round it does get cold enough here for the outside taps to have to be turned off each winter.

Thanks again for the replies, I really appreciate it.

Here is a link that might be useful: Hand washing sink

The handwashing sink is an interesting idea. I'd want it tucked back so it doesn't extend out past the bookshelves, or I'd always be tripping on it or bumping into it.

Bmore mentioned my big concern...the 7 1/2 ft breakfast area. Looks too narrow for a table with adequate chair pullout and sitting room. It's even too small for the table you show, which is only 30"...pretty narrow for a table.

How about swapping the fridge and oven...Tightening the 'triangle' while putting the ovens closer to the butcherblock, which sounds like the baking project area.

Guess I'm not liking the handwashing sink idea so much. Functionally it makes sense, but no matter how cool it still makes me think of a bathroom.

Do you ever plan on selling your home? If so maybe do a prep type sink at the corner of the baking area and use that for handwashing although turn it in towards the kitchen. Or maybe a bar sink. If an undermount sink it would make clean-up easy of your baking area, just sweep left over flour into the sink.

Are you sure you want to use butcher block for baking? I much prefer something that is nice and flat for baking myself.

Rhome, I spoke to a KD today who said if we were going to go to the expense to put the nook area in I should make it bigger or it wouldn't appeal to future buyers who don't have skinny tables. So, since so many of you mentioned it too I am convinced it would be better to make it a bit bigger.

I can't swap the fridge and oven, the fridge we chose needs two feet for the door swing so you can get the produce drawers open and I would have to extend that cabinet to the left of the oven two feet which I can't afford to do.

Lyfia, I am worried about the bathroom look too that's why I asked here, I figured someone would come up with something ingenious. I'll probably end up just putting in a cabinet there with a prep sink but wanted to see if I could manage something different that was workable. I haven't ever had a butcher block counter but I thought they were flat. I want it for yeast and pasta doughs which both work better on wood. I guess both for the texture and warmth.

thanks very much for your replies, I really appreciate them.

salal_08 - I guess with flat I meant the texture and really meant smooth. I did not like butcher block that I was stuck with in an apartment for baking. Dough tended to stick to it even with flour underneat in little pieces. I have to say I really like my granite now for baking vs. the laminate I had last as it also had a tad bit of texture, but that is probably the only thing I prefer the granite for.

Hello Everyone,

I really appreciate the replies to my posting as well as the amazing advice available on this forum, so many of the threads have helped with important decisions.

I was reading the replies to a plan posted by remodelfla and she mentioned an Advantium. Didn't know what it was so I searched for it here and was amazed that such an appliance exists. I had wanted a warming drawer but couldn't justify the cost for such a single featured item. The Advantium sounds like just the ticket.

I tried making the new dining area fatter but didn't like how it looked and I realized the cost would be prohibitive. The replies to the thread posted by hollyh (limbo and discouraged) helped me remember what it was I wanted in the first place. A new wall oven. It's easy to get carried away, no?

So, I have scaled back the plan to just be a larger kitchen so I can have more storage, more counter space and a wall oven.

Thanks to lyfia and Holligator who encouraged a regular prep sink instead of something maybe interesting but pretty much useless.

I have moved the dishwasher to the left where I'm hoping to not trip on it anymore.

And, I was so stuck on using butcher block for that counter that I couldn't see the advantages of not. I finally realized Richlite is made of recycled paper (i.e. wood) and will probably have many of the same qualities as butcher block with regard to yeast doughs. Also, using the counter by the window has got to be a better option while patiently kneading breads. And, giving up on the butcher block allowed me to use an undermount sink and leave that counter shorter. I'm planning on putting a drop leaf on the end of the prep sink counter so I can put it up for unloading groceries and any other time that area could use more countertop. That will save me $$$ on the length of bookshelves and makes the Richlite come in just under a single sheet.

thanks again!

{{!gwi}}
{{!gwi}}

i was going to say i really don't like the sink idea at all... it would make me wonder where the toilet was!

It really takes all kinds, doesn't it? Now I like the sink idea because you want it and because it's an expression of individual choice. This kitchen's looking like a rather gorgeous place to work, and I like it very much overall. But--it a pretty large kitchen and a rather tight dining area. Can you balance out the needs of the functions just a bit more equitably? Although you obviously enjoy cooking and deserve all the space you want, that other area is where your end products'll be enjoyed.

Rosie we haven't been able to figure out a better way to divide the area. The dining area is at the top of the stair case and, although it's not a great thing to see when you enter a home, I figure it's better than having the main entrance come into the kitchen. The living room is on the other side of the 8' wall.

I am wondering too if it's too big. That 16' stretch of counter has me concerned but it was hard to fit everything in. I'm even wondering where the measuring cups will go.

Does it help to know the dining room table only gets used about 4 times a year? All meals with just DH and me are eaten in the recliner in front of the TV. Sad but true. They are really great meals though.

Great job in trying to decide how your kitchen should be. It has to be tough to make all the millions of decisions.

That said, I am questioning the sink/hand washing area. I think the area by the prep sink (hand washing sink) needs to have an upper cab or shelves or something to balance it out with the rest of the kitchen. The extra storage wouldn't be bad either. I am one of those believers that too much cabinet space isn't enough.

Also, I was wondering if you would use your kitchen desk? Most folks don't. Putting the prep/handwashing sink where the desk is might be good and the plumbing would be on one wall. Then you could use the area where the prep/handwashing sink is for download space since it would be straight countertop. Again, I would put an upper cab or shelves against that one wall to balance it out.

Best of luck and I am curious as to what you will actually end up with for your kitchen. Want to see pictures during the construction phase and after it is all done. Should be very pretty!

Thanks for the advice Mustbnuts, much appreciated. That prep sink is just on a pennisula, not a wall. It's only 4' high with a raised bar-type shelf above the counter. This shelf wraps around the other side to join to the tall skinny cabinet there so it looks nicer than it does on the plan, I just didn't know how to draw the shelf etc. in the BH&G software. There are bookshelves on the other side. The ceiling is vaulted so suspending cabinets there isn't really an option. That area is pretty much the only thing I'm leaving as it is, except for adding the prep sink.

That isn't a desk, it's a place for me to read the paper and have breakfast and lunch while enjoying looking out the windows. DH doesn't do breakfast or lunch. I will also use it to sit and consult a recipe. And, my nephew can sit there and chat with me the 4 times a year we have family for dinner. The area that the chair is in is currently a very small nook that I'm stretching out the kitchen wall to meet. I use it for breakfast/lunch/recipes now. The new area won't be as nice but I think it's a better use of the space than the nook.

Thanks for saying you think it will be pretty, sure hope so.

Since you have so much floor space. How about re-configure it so you have an island in the middle with counterstools. You can sit there and look out the window and have breakfast and lunch and then also use it for another work area. Put the prep sink on the end of it so it still keeps somebody from coming into your cooking space, but would also allow another cook to help if you ever wanted it.

I think it's going to be a wonderful place for you to enjoy your cooking, and I love that wall of windows every time I see it. So funny, and fortuitous, about your remembering that you really just wanted a wall oven and more counter space.

I like the openness too much for a solid island, but since Lyfia raises the possiblity, would some sort of a pull-out/roll-around unit be of use? Perhaps stored under the snack counter? Or, have you considered installing a pull-out cutting board someplace where it would come in handy?

Presumably you have a reason why you want the dishwasher under your main workspace instead of to the right of the sink, right?

Thanks for the suggestions Lyfia and encouraging comments Rosie. I did have an island in an earlier version of the plan but decided by the time I put in the recommended 42" aisles it would just be in my way. I like wide, open spaces. And I love sitting right at the window. We have a family of quail, hummingbirds, lots of other birds, and some rascal squirrels that provide lots of entertainment. I thought about a pull-out/roll-around Boos block but figured I'd rather use the large counter and look out the window. And, I only need the one seat for me, my nephew can sit there when he visits.

Someone here told me to move the DW or it would be a hazard so near the entrance. Not sure it still would be with this plan though. Also I read somewhere that right handed people should have the DW on the left. I will still pile the dirty dishes up on the right though. Maybe I should move it back to the right as that's where DH would prefer it and he does at least 2/3 of the dishes.

Thanks again, much appreciated.

I understand. It looks like you could easily have 48" all around and an island.

I do think the point about the DW is good. It's nice to be able to have it open and stick things in while cooking. I don't think with as much open space that you have that the DW would be an issue at all as far as traffic goes. You need a small and tighter space for it to be one.

Could you swap the fridge and oven? It is a long haul to get anything from the fridge when doing anything. 11ft and no where to land things along the way to where your work area is.

Thanks Lyfia, I will move the DW back.

Can't swap the fridge and oven. I originally had them that way but the Fisher & Paykel fridge I selected needs 2' on the hinge side to be able to get the produce drawers open. I had wanted the Thermador 24" fresh food column but that would have required purchasing a set of Fridge/Freezer drawers whereas now they are just on the wish list. Thermadors don't have door swing issues but the F&P is about 1/3 the price. 1/5 if you include the Fridge/Freezer drawers. I'm still mooning about it though...

Window wall people unite! I don't think 16' of window and counter top is too much. I have a 15' stretch and it gets filled up pretty easily. Here's a recent photo showing the window wall.

Thanks for the input Abbycat, I love your kitchen, the red wall and chairs are so gorgeous with the light cabinets. Do you have two seating areas? One with the red chairs and one with the black? What is that to the left of the fridge? Sorry to be nosy.

thanks very much!

New stools (black) in same location. The door to the left of the fridge will eventually receive additional coats of magnetic paint and the charcoal topcoat. It leads to the old kitchen, which is not the new laundry room/pantry.