Palimpset - Go for B - If you cannor find another door for the oven - replacing it with a rental/builder/apartment grade stove would tide you through - until you are ready to tackle a bigger project. Good luck!

I've been following your house quest (is it the old house thread or the remodeling thread?) and I thought you were leaning towards "A" until I saw this post. The way you've asked and the pictures, well, they make me think you're leaning towards "B." House "A" has some beautiful original details elsewhere, am I right? (But boy, the kitchen is bleak.) Looks like you could function in B for a while, but not easily...I suspect you'd be gutting pretty soon. Can you give us an idea of the square footage of one kitchen vs the other?

Hmmm, "A" has mold (could be bugs in there too), signs of bad electric (which often means plumbing too) and signs of roof or other leaksÂdoors, windows If this is an example of the rest of the home you would have to get it at a steal and still coming out ahead after the 120,000 to 155,000 or more that you put in.
"B" looks good but why would someone spiff up the kitchen but not bother to put micro plug in proper location unless the whole spiff is a quick presentable botch hiding other horrors. At 100,000 more this house may need closer inspection.
My choice would come down to the numbers after the estimated overhauls, which one would you come out ahead? Are these picks in family neighborhoods and does one have a better school district then the other?

A is probably 11' x 8' to the archway. Eat-in area leading to this (88 sq.)

B is 15' x 6'(or slightly under)(90 sq)...so about the same, really.

A was sold, but something happened, so the owner moved out and cleaned up and recently put it back on. (it has been on market coming on 2 years)

B has been a rental for 30 of its 40 year life, is the worst house in a *nice* area, and has a neighboring house that has some legal issues that are soon to be resolved but have kept this one from selling. (They are attached)

It's extremely hard to pass judgement without seeing any more of the house(s) in question, but personally I'd go with A all the way -- it has salvage-worthy architectural details like the door, transom, window molding, etc. What is its floor?

If you need a place to LIVE after the purchase, obviously B would be the only reasonable option -- but without seeing any more of it, that kitchen is 100% bland tract house and seemingly has no charming architectural details whatsoever; it's a drywall box.

Are the kitchens in your area generally that small? Neither of them would appeal to me....but if I had to choose, I would pick A. Kitchen B has the sink, DW, range and Ref all squished into one area....definitely a one cook kitchen. That would be a dealbreaker for me.

And I agree with circuspeanut, A has more architectural interest.

On the other hand, it's always best to buy the worst house in the best neighborhood. So B might be a better investment.

Location, location, location!! That's what would make up my mind.

Kitchens in this area tend to be small, yes. My current one is about 55 sq ft. True expansion of the kitchen, except by encroaching into other spaces is not possible in either case (no addition).

House A is 100+ y.o., last substantially renovated in 1940s. The kitchen can be enlarged by extending into the eating area, but I think the partial wall around where the microwave sits is masonry underneath, the original back of house. The bathrooms are...worse. (c. 1900 with midcentury toilets). House A lists for more than $200K less than a renovated house in the area. The neighborhood is mixed, there is a $6M neo-Palazzo a block away.

House B is 42 y.o. and the kitchen is *by far* the worst room in the house. It is part of an urban infill development, and I have not seen a single other kitchen in the development that has not been fully renovated and opened into the adjacent space. This house is the last holdout rental in a very nice neighborhood.

House B lists for about 60% of the average price in the zipcodes but this is misleading because the range for this square footage is from the High $200Ks to about $1M and there are four properties in the $5M range in the neighborhood on the market. This skews the numbers. Its listed for $70K less than a slightly smaller renovated sibling.

Kitchen B is more immediately usable, if that is important to you. But either kitchen would be considered a gut in most estimations. So I wouldn't let the kitchen be the determinative factor -- let the rest of the house determine your choice.

School system = better resale. So that is #1. Then consider how much is needed for the structural and hidden parts of each home. (I haven't seen the other threads, so I don't know the merits of the houses, otherwise).

There are people who would gladly take those steel cabinets off your hands. And the sink. The old beat up kitchen gets my vote. I need that white door in the dirty kitchen. I have one and I need a second one. Not easy to find around here.

palimpsest,

Both are good investments. It seems you have done
your hw. And with your creativity and intelligence you can
turn each one into an amazing home.

Which one speaks to you?

When you close your eyes which one can you picture
changing in the easiest way?

Which one do you feel you can tackle? I know you could
do both but since you have to pick one, which one feels
like more fun to tackle?

My instinct says A will reap more financial rewards but B
might be easier to reno since the Kitchen is the worst room.

So much to think about. A or B????
Can you post pics of the outside or is that just going
to complicate it all for me. : )

Go for A. It will be a HUGE challenge. Just looking
at the fifth scares me but it will be stunning when you
are done. You have the natural talents to make it
all work and make money off of it. Go for it.

~boxer

A leprechaun failing out of the sky would have as good advice as I would. I wish you better luck with your decisions that a flying fleet of leprechauns would bring.

I am looking at both of these houses again tomorrow. In October 09, I was psychologically ready to make an offer on the old house, which then sold. Untouched houses like this often get picked up and turned into drywall boxes inside.

The newer house is a three minute walk from where I live now. Its a rarity in my neighborhood for me--an unremodeled house with acceptable square footage at a price I can afford to remodel (properly). It just happens to be mid 20th century rather than mid 19th.

Whatever you do, I hope the cat mobile (or is it a windchime?) gets to stay in house A. ;-)

Good luck palimpsest,
I send cyber wishes that this
will all work out the
way you wish.
~boxer

Personally I'd go for B. Location is paramount. What neighborhood do you really want to live in, take walks in, maybe raise kids? You could remodel the kitchen at your leisure (if you want or need to wait) since it is at least functional now. When the market turns around, you will more than recoup your investment if you want to sell, and then can look for a wonderful older project home that you really like. There is an old movie i remember, I think called"The Money Pit". Be careful. Of course if I could find a gracious home from the '20s I'd probably throw caution to the wild too.

Emotionally, I love kitchen A. Even with all the yuck. Very cool details. But isn't conventional real estate wisdom to buy the smallest, worst house in the best neighborhood? So in that sense, B would be the better buy. Oh beats the heck out of me! I echo bmorepanic. May you enjoy the blessings and wisdom of a thousand falling leprechauns (and all their pots of gold as well).

A 40 year old home is still going to have mostly curently up to code wiring (no knob and tube) and the plumbing will also still be in good shape (probably no cast iron or galvanized getting ready to collapse). It will actually have some insulation in the walls and in the attic. It will have central heat and air already installed, and even though the furnace may be near the end of it's life, the ductwork will be of a large enough size and with enough returns that it will be a like for like replacement.

Architectural interest has it's bonuses, but unless those bonuses come substantially cheaper than you're talking about, House A will need more investment than you've really thought about to equal the creature comforts that already exist in House B. Architectural interest can be added to House B a lot easier than adding all modern wiring and plumbing and insulation to House A. Probably cheaper too, even if the house itself costs more. It'll be easier to fix up a room at a time, because, well, you're not dealing with everything at once needing to be ripped out or rehabbed. All that kitchen needs is a Craig's List range to be functional for quite some time. If the bathrooms are in similar slightly damaged but ugly shape, then it would be a no brainer to me. But then, I actually enjoy lower heating bills and no fear of an electrical fire starting behind my walls! LOL!

Looking from the outside at these two houses, as we are, makes for an interesting exercise.

House A needs to have a lot of infrastructure update. (New electrical, HVAC, and plumbing)but is house with handsome proportions and sturdy detailing. (If nothing fancy).

House B needs minimal infrastructure updating, and it has a pleasant floorplan. However it is a half-baked modernist house with minimal or unpleasant detailing--all of which I would like to change.

In some regards they are similar, both have functioning but aged roofs, both need new windows.

The old house is 100K+ cheaper and a larger gap than that to meet the renovated house worth in the neighborhood (200K+ or more). House B could easily take $75K of work but you would be approaching a point of diminishing returns if you spend too much.

The old house is in one of the few zipcodes in the US with distinctly rising real estate values...for now.

I'm going to vote for the old house. An 8 foot wide kitchen is infinitely better as far as I'm concerned than a 6 foot wide kitchen for my needs. I'd have to assume that I'd be able to really expand B right away to consider it.

My vote... older house. MOre return on your money and more interesting project to me.

First one. Wash it, paint it, reuse it. Some of it. Way classy.

I would vote for location. You can't go wrong with that. The one thing I noticed about the second kitchen that I didn't see with the first kitchen was the air vent indicating that the soffit was probably there to stay. I don't know that if that matters or whether that was also a problem with the first kitchen. Not a problem though if you don't want to get rid of the soffits.

Thanks for your opinions and thoughts. I looked at both of these properties again today and I will let you know what I think.

This is "B" in another house that is a close sibling: (its slightly smaller in square footage). So you can see these houses have some potential. Its interesting that people are concerned about the distance between counters, but it is as wide (or slightly wider) than the aisle space many people have between perimeter and island. Of course with an island there is full circulation, not a dead end.
{{!gwi}}

I also like B because of its location. You can always sell a small house in a better location (I presume this is an eventual flip). It's also not dire, which gives you some breathing space.

I think the narrow comments are because it's a U, especially with the range in the base. Even the opened up one has that narrow feeling with the range in the base of the U. There's no way to step to the side of the stove, and one has to turn to make use of the counter. Additionally, the style is so much for "opening up" that a lot of people feel cramped in a galley, especailly without a window, even though it's very convenient as a workspace.

A lot of people are picking up B as the better location, but several things you have said about A make it sound like the better location -- rising real estate values, $100K below the price of B but $200K less than the price of a similar renovated house in the area and an odd ball in terms of not having been renovated while the other is an oddball because it is "half-baked modernist." You can get into some serious money if you start trying to do a facelift on the exterior. I'd want to know I could give it better curb appeal as well as update the kitchen -- and both can get expensive.

I do like the architectural details in A -- the transom, the window -- can't see a lot else. From what I've seen and heard here, I'd probably like the overall house and get more satisfaction out of doing it. I'm not clear from what I'm reading here whether you would be living in the home while the work is done. I wouldn't be able to use that kitchen at all -- I'd get a wash tub and use a camp stove out back until it was done. Better now than in January.

The adjoined houses don't appeal to me as much -- maybe it's a Texas thang -- wide open spaces and all. ;-) Make sure the legal issues are fully resolved (final orders, appeal times have run, titles cleared -- everything).

Do you know why A came back on the market? If it has to do with property condition, wouldn't that need to have been disclosed? Did someone buy it and decide they didn't have the time, money or patience to redo it or did the original sale fall through? I'd want to know all I could there. You may get a honey of a deal. Houses that re-list tend to not do as well the second time around, and this house has been looking for a special person from the start -- one with patience and TLC or a big budget for a teardown and the desire to add another multi-million dollar home to the neighborhood -- which is more likely with the market rising there.

It's an interesting problem to have -- will be interested to see what happens.

I vote for C!

Seriously, I keep thinking about all these issues for whatever might be my "next" house. I hate to remodel, I like nice floorplans and spaces, and I hate to spend $500 k at the get-go. So go figure!

I'd have to have my contractor-friend with me when going through the house. All that above--about whether stuff needs taking down to studs, but not have to re-wire and re-plumb the house, or kitchen B being superficially prettier but not at all a dream kitchen in terms of space and relation to the rest of the house (it seems). About whether a certain neighborhood is so cool and houses come on the market infrequently so that you buy to get into it and then fix the house to suit. And we haven't heard about the lots! Meaning, if the lot size, juxtaposition to neighboring houses, views, drainage, mature landscaping (meaning perfect trees, not ho-hum shrubs), hardscape and all are important to you, then sometimes it's easier to fix the house if you love the outside and the siting of the house.

It IS really hard to figure the benefits and trade-offs in finding the "best" house, because most will need something done, and your question about what to tackle--do you "buy" your great kitchen and fix up all the rest of a house, or vice versa, for example--is really great. Good luck!

I don't have any advice on either, but I am just mouth-agape astounded that kitchen A actually shows evidence of being still in use! I have never seen a kitchen that filthy and run-down. I am honestly curious how it got in that condition - is that what happens when you don't wash a single surface for 20 years straight? Simple washing would have kept it clean, right? If I had to picture Oscar the Grouch's kitchen down in his garbage can, this would definately be it.

But what a fun journey you will be embarking on, taking something old and run down beyond belief (just think of before and after pics!!!) and making it pretty and useable again. The worse the start, the more impressive the end.

I'm a sucker for the old house! It sounds to me like your heart isnt in house B either.

Yes, a house is the largest purchase most of us will make, so you cant' let your heart rule alone. But neither should you invest all your energy and talent and time into something that doesnt speak to you ...

I looked at both of these houses again last week.

I was really looking for philosophical answers about the kitchen itself kind of divorced from the other variables --essentially the location of these houses is almost equal, and the public school system is awful regardless.

However the reality of House A, now that I have seen it completely unoccupied, is that it is too far gone to be tackled with the resources I would be comfortable committing to it. It has every issue Live Wire Oak mentioned: knob and tube wiring, galvanized water supply lines, and the upstairs wood floors are covered with tile that is old enough to have asbestos in it.

I am relatively adventurous and resilient, and if there were Two rooms in the house that could be occupied, and a bathroom that could be cleaned up enough to use for a few weeks while one was being renovated I could deal with that. However, the latest roof (These are flat tarpaper things basically) was put on over bad sheathing and there is tar dripping down through the ceilings like stalactites. The entire roof has to come off.

One could easily gut and convert the house to a series of drywall boxes, but the budget to peel away and retain plaster, original floors and other details is just too high for my comfort.

Are you on to looking for that house C then?

You are making the right choice here. While it is rewarding to gut and remodel an old houseÂthere is a domino affect that seems to not end. I did a house like that in I think 1990 and it came out sweetÂbut oh the MONEY. My husband and I drove past the house a few years after I sold it and the new owner had let it go to heck. It was so sad to see after all that work, and he was so anal about everything when he bought it too. A few years later after a townhouse buy I couldnÂt seem to find the deal I wanted in a family house in good school district so I bypassed the realtors that werenÂt helping and put an ad in the paper describing the house I wanted and the price I wanted to pay, I put the ad in the classified houses for sale section in the town I wanted. I got one reply from an owner and it was exactly what I wanted. That house just needed a face lift and brought me the largest profit. That was in the late 90Âs so you would probably have more replies if you tried that route now.
Best of luck!

Boo hoo. I was silently rooting for House A. In my younger days when I had considerably more energy and strength I renovated a similar house. The house I worked on had last been occupied by 25 Moonies (the people that sell roses in the airport). Mold covered everything. They had been such slobs. You would not believe what elbow grease and Chlorox can do. Once it was cleaned, I got the electric updated, then I painted. It was such fun watching the beautiful plaster regain its face, and seeing the grime laden wooden floors gleaming after the refinisher did his work.

All this said, only you, with the help of a knowledgeable contractor, can make the decision. You have to feel comfortable with the investment.

I am currently building a new home. I purchased a "B" 11 years ago. It is 55 yrs old now. The home was in good, but original, condition. I have put about $200,000 into its restoration. I dearly love this house and would not be moving except my husband (who came along 8 yrs ago) insists on a larger home. My only regret with this house is that it has very little architectural interest on the exterior. Like an earlier poster said, that is an issue that is very expensive to change.

I think that a couple people missed a few aspects of both properties. As urban properties they are ALL attached to something on either side. Both houses are on 16' lots and both houses are 16' wide. The old house took up the entire lot, the newer house has a patio-sized yard.

I am pretty experienced at making a silk purse out of a sow's ear. The interesting thing about B, is that its neighor (and mirror image originally) now has the kitchen on the Living Room floor and in the front of the house rather than the back. (If you have a plumbing stack nearby--not a big deal). While I have moved kitchens across the house for Other people, I have never done it for myself, because I have lived in condos with restrictions. The idea that the rooms can be juggled opens up myriad possibilities.

I called B a half-backed modernist, and that made it sound like I didnt like it. Get the right details in place and it could be fully realized. I would rather have a bigger budget for architectural detailing than to be spending it on new plumbing, electrical, HVAC, and roof.