Definitely fridge would have to move in Plan b...and the prep sink isn't in a very useful location. I don't feel it meets your needs/desires as well regarding sharing the kitchen with the kids doing tasks without getting in your workspace.

Plan B has tons of counterspace, but I don't feel it's divided into helpful and efficient work areas, like plan A is. It comes under the saying, that 'bigger/more isn't always better.' My impression is that, functionally, I think Plan B is OK/average (if fridge gets moved), but Plan A is really well thought out and specifically meets your needs.

In plan B the island seating gets to see out the windows...But the person prepping at the island doesn't...so that's a hard choice.

I do like the mudroom/laundry set up in Plan B, but sounds like it might be much more construction expense?

One last thing, that really makes me lean away from Plan B without it having more work...The range is right in what looks like it could become a main the path into the kitchen. My rangetop is situated at the end of our island, and if I was starting over, I'd make sure the long side of any island faced the stove for a broader prep/work area, and for better protection from traffic. I don't need the broad island counter across from the sink, but could make better use of it across from the stove...Especially if it was a range, like you have, and it'd be nice to have that big area for setting things out of the oven to cool.

At first glance I like A better but the more I look at counter space and traffic flow the more I like B. I'm not real fond of the stove placement in either but B is a bit better. I think I'd put a/the prep sink on the smallish counter with the fridge if I did plan B, though. That and shift the stove closer to the "L" so that you're not bumping up against the island.

How many cooks / helpers do you plan to have?

I do guess that construction of Plan B will be more and the addition to the side of the garage may require some clever permitting proposal due to property line , plus extending the driveway over there. We have done more work on Plan A so there are some layout issues that would need to be addressed on plan B (as you mention:prep sink and stove)

I do like the laundry/mudroom in Plan B-maybe that's what has me doubting myself.

Re. cooks/helpers: I am the primary cook. My husband cooked for the 1st time in a long time and said he enjoyed it and wants to do more in our one day new kitchen! Also have boys age 3-9, they like to help prep things so I would think that would continue /increase with larger work space.

I would hope with the size kitchen we have to work with that space, flow, etc should not be a problem when/if we get the right layout.
Hope to hear more and fine tune things and get moving on one of these :)

I don't have anything to add that rhome didn't already say. But I so understand what you are going through! I've gone through dozens of ideas, eliminated most but can't decide for sure which way to go. Perhaps you should check into the property line issue and the construction costs of B. Maybe that would make the decision for you -lol. Good luck!

I love plan B. I'm not totally convinced about the placement of the fridge but the rest of it makes up for it. And scoot the stove over a few inches unless your isle is super wide.

I like plan A. In addition to what rhome said, to me it looks like the house "flows" better in A.

Plan A, hands down! Plan A works beautifully! A wonderful compact prep and cooking zone with a huge island to work on, protected range and separate clean-up zone. A clear path to the fridge for visitors, nicely separated 'work' and 'visiting' areas, well balanced walls of appliances, ample pantry space. Enough room for a second cook or helper working in the clean-up area.

So what is it about A that you're not loving?

I'm trying to see what even makes Plan B appealing... (Other than the skylights and curved island seating area.) The fridge is way out of the way. The range is unprotected in the main aisle. The pantry is a hike. There's only one sink, which pretty much means one cook.

No contest - Plan A!

In general terms I really like them both and can see why you're torn.

Plan B provides the cook a much stronger relationship to the back yard, where it looks like a lot of family life takes place, and gives the cook that lovely right view. For that matter, with B the whole house relates strongly to the back patio and garden with the long center hall view inviting people out (and channeling incoming traffic happily directly into the center hall). Very nice for pretty days, and a synergy that makes a home feel, as well as live, larger.

Plan A, on the other hand, places the cook more cozily into the center of the house and stops the hall view at the hutch. Particularly nice for evenings and delightful when sleet's beating at the windows. The play in the rear is supervised, but the cook has a little separation and is not always right on top of it.

For the cook, as well as the home, they really offer very different moods. I'm a split personality myself, so they both suit, but would one fit you emotionally better than the other?

I have read parts of the other threads on your layout with interest, but I never really commented.

A lot of this really depends on your personal needs and style, as mentioned above, but for me, I would go with Plan B without a second thought.

The only two things I would change is the fridge location (at the end of the range wall probably?) and then I would make the island more like a quarter round (not sure what the term would be - almost like a triangle with the long side being curved for seating) so you have more prep space by the stove and have the prep sink there.

As far as traffic goes, just by looking at the plan, I don't know why anyone would walk past the stove in B? It would seem that the easiest way to get around would be walk through the kitchen at the bottom of the plan, by the stools...

I'm also a bit biased because I don't like sinks on walls...that would kill me. This is something I'm grappling with now, as all my requirements for our new home means that I'll have to place the sink on the peninsula, which I didn't want. I love the fact that your sink would look out over the yard, and anyone who sits at the island would have that view as well.

I also much prefer the mud room/pantry/powder room set up in B...

Of course, I haven't invested as much time in this plan as everybody else did, and I know I trust these guys a lot...these were just my initial observations! Either way, best of luck! Lucy

Everything Sweeby said. Plan A. You do not really spend much time at a cleanup sink visiting with people and you probable have a nice view out of that window too. It is such a hike to the fridge in B and the range/traffic lane thing would really bug me. I also like the laundry/mud room set up, again traffic flow.

Phew... I am glad at least it's not that I am crazy! My DH thinks I am. It is nice to see others can see the pros/cons of each plan and that the answer isn't so easy!

Any chance I can combine what you all have commented on and create the best of both? :). I think we have explored so many options at this time that I my brain is not working anymore.

I am going thru each now to try to absorb and answer your questions.
Thanks for the reassurance that this is the hard part! My DH is not looking forward to cabinet and counter selection but with everyone's beautiful photos I have seen , that seems like the easy part now (I know I will fret over that decision too when the time comes).

Thanks so much for all the great comments, points ,etc! Such great people on the GW! Keep the ideas coming and in the meantime I will get my thoughts together and get back to you!

I too can see why you could like either plan. But in the end, I personally think the best plan is plan A. It makes better use of the space that you have, and I think overall it's more visually appealing to the eye. I'd worry about what you are going to do with all that counterspace to the right of the range in Plan B. It's a lot of counter almost in the wrong place. You're not going to prep there, cook there, clean up there or eat there, so what would you do there? If you look at all the spaces in Plan A, they all have a purpose.

I COMPLETELY understand about going back and forth over new and old plans. I've been at this for over a year. What many have said to me is think about how you use a kitchen and better yet how you want to use it. In Plan A, you have separate zones for almost everything! Many people would kill to have that. I'd love to have separate spaces for coffee, snacks, clean up and cooking. I really think you have a great plan there.

I can also relate about doing most of the design work yourself. I have a great KD who functionally does great plans, but when it comes to the design layer is really lacking. My advice is keep looking at magazines and any websites you can find. I can't say that most of my design is "my own creation". I've stolen bits and pieces from many different places. Now I'm just gonna pray that it all comes together.

Good luck!! You did find a great place here at Garden Web!!

I like plan b best. Sorry, not much help. ;P

I do agree the fridge needs to be accessible-- that may need some tweaking. I like that the powder room seems a little roomier in plan b, and I like the layout of the mudroom/laundry room too....... tough decision you have!

good luck!

Another option....a variation on Plan B:

Move refrigerator to East wall so it's more accessible + still accessible for snackers...It opens into an aisle, but will only block for a very short time.

42" Counter depth refrigerator

Move range North so it's out of main traffic flow

Move prep sink to other side of island so it's usable for prep and cooking

Convert South wall to pantry wall

OR

Make it a beverage center or other "nice to have" If budget allows, you could even put a prep sink on this wall w/Beverage Center

OR

Make it a Snack Center with prep sink + under counter refrigerator + small MW

Overall...better zones and work flow:

Garage w/groceries to Refrigerator and Pantry

Refrigerator and Pantry to Island or wall for prep w/prep sink

Prep to cooking w/range

Cooked food to DR/Island/etc. OR dirty dishes to cleanup sink

Dirty Dishes from DR/Island/etc. to Cleanup sink

buehl - If I ever get to design my own kitchen I want you to help with the floor plan. The changes you made to plan b were just about what I was thinking (only better).

When we printed this all out to review it this evening, Plan A was winning 5 to 3.
Now it is tied 5 to 5 with one undecided!
We are just amazed at how much thought you all have put into our kitchen-all you comments on both plans are so helpful!

The main question that came up was "What is it about A that I don't LOVE"?
I guess it is a few things:
1)simply that it is not a design that you see often in magazines ,making it harder to visualize. Most photos I have are of L shaped kitchens or similar and at least have the kitchen sink at the back window. This is not a negative, but simply makes it harder to envision.And in turn causes more doubt!
2)That the sink is not at a window -this is the sacrifice we are considering for having an open floor plan to the yard /patio. Orignially the AD had it in the island but I finally decided I needed a clutter free/dish free island. A window may be built into the wet bar so I would have a side view from the sink to the yard.And the AD would like to make the wall sink more attractive somehow (recessed wall behind sink, wall faucet, attrative backsplash or something)
3) I do like the Plan B entrance from the garage into the family foyer/mudroom better and access to the laundry room.

It was mentioned it may just come down to emotions/style. It seems like both plans are or can be designed to have proper zones (thanks to Buehl's tweaks on PlanB) so maybe it does just come down to that-style. If I was going with plan B I would definitely consider Buehl's 2nd drawing-that is really great. As a bonus , we don't need that coat closet across from the basement steps so that could be a pantry as well.

Buehl: just curious-if Plan A was decided on, would you change anything there as well? Or is it just not feeling right at all for you?

As far as cooking style-in the nice weather I grill outside a lot. Other times I feel I use the oven as much as or maybe more than the stove top. I don't find that I am at the stove top for lengthy times so having my back to the rest of the kitchen isn't too concerning. I think the island will get lots of use.
We truly appreciate all the comments still coming in. And all the reassurance that this is normal! I can not believe how much thought people here on GW give to other people's kitchens! THANK YOU!
My DH thinks I am going to go flip a coin now!

Thanks for the compliment Pbrisjar!

Ravmd,

Plan A just didn't feel right to me...that's why I didn't tweak it.

I immediately liked Plan B best even though I saw some issues. I think one of the things I like about Plan B is that it gives you some "protected" space to work in without completely isolating you in the kitchen. I think it's still open enough to give you the open feel--especially with the big window on the north wall. I also like the fact that both the people seated at the island and someone working at the cleanup sink have a view of the outside. I also like the Powder, Mud, and Laundry Rooms better. If you turn the coat closet into a pantry opening into the kitchen you make Plan B even better.

Plan A, I think, is too open...doorways everywhere with traffic all over the kitchen.

JMHO!

Concerns with the new Plan B:

Where is the work space and the area to spread out the food around the prep sink? Will it be washed, then moved over by the stove to prep? I really like prep area beside the sink. I wouldn't want to use it from the window side and be back to back with the other sink.

The fridge door opens into the entrance to the kitchen from the family foyer.

Only one dishwasher in either plan? Seems like we discussed that before, but I don't remember the outcome.

Anyone care that the island end extends past the sink wall cabinet run? I like things that line up, but maybe it's just me.

Will that bar area work as well for you with the entertaining that you do? I think I'd want the beverage portion toward the breakfast room end of that wall for easier access to/from the patio area. Oh, wait...That was your coat closet, which I wouldn't want to give up, especially when you have the larger pantry already.

I still see a lot of counter space in areas it's not needed, while you lose the bar space and more dedicated work spaces. It's my experience that extra counter in areas where it's not used for specific tasks (not close to high use areas) collects junk and dust. I want counter where I'll use it...Otherwise it's just more to clean while my family piles on top of each other in the crucial spots. This is just my opinion, and I know I have more workers on a regular basis to worry about.

When I first read this post, I immediately liked Plan B better. The reason being is that I just have to have a window above the sink. But I know that's just me and not everyone cares so much about that. I've gone back and read your post and all the comments over and over, looked at the plans again and again. What has really swayed me to Plan A and the vision you've had the last 2 years was going and reading your post regarding the hutches.

I think you've come up with a good idea of what you want for your home and the way you entertain and live. You have such a beautiful back yard and I think with the french doors going to the back and the hutches flanking the french doors that it will look lovely.

The layout/design decisions are very important and time consuming. I think once you make a commitment to these plans that you won't be second guessing yourself so much. There will be so many other things to make decisions about! :)

I like Plan A much, much better. For all the reasons Sweeby mentioned plus I love the neutral space over on the porch side. The centered set of doors is going to be wonderful and dramatic.

You all have some really good points on each plan-Buehl thanks again for taking the time on Plan B and explaining what didin't feel right to you on Plan A.
Rhome-thanks for really keeping up with all of this! My DH is pulling for you and wishes I could make a decision like you!
I wish I felt so strongly about one of these-obviously we had been (are?) leaning towards A and you can tell by all my other posts that I am trying to alleviate some of my concerns re. the cleanup sink.

As far as light in , we may implement the skylights in whatever plan we go with. We discussed vaulted ceilings vs recessed sections and the recessed sections will work best in Plan A. The AD has 3 recessed panels (not shown in this drawing) across the length of the kitchen to give it some height in those areas. Could be skylights if we wanted but wasn't sure about that. When he tried to vault it, the peak was going to be just to the left of the sink in Plan A so it didn't really add anything to it and it is such a short run to the back wall where it would end at 8ft high it looked funny. Either ceiling could be done in Plan B.
We also think we can pull the ceiling up in the breakfast room and screened porch (this was a previously done addition to the house by prior owner) so that will add some nice height to the plan.

Wascollette-thanks for taking the time to read the other post as well re. the back wall of plan A. It's a lot to keep up with!

I am glad to see some of the helpers on my previous layout posts back here again to keep reassuring us. And really happy to see some new names!Thank you!

Rhome-forgot to answer the DW question. There is one in plan A -he shows it under the prep sink (says there is some sort of full size DW that has a cut out to allow it to go under the sink). I haven't seen it and not sure if I care for it, but at a minimum we will have a DW or DW drawer to the right of the prep sink.
We never got that far with the Plan B to go into the missing details so not sure where it would go.
Re. the location of the beverage bar, yes it is in a great location in plan A. In plan B, it is further from the patio but for everyday use it is in a good location.And I guess for entertaining people will go wherever the bar is but I do like the back hutches in Plan A for that better.
The coat closet could go as the wall between the Family room and kitchen will not be coming down since that would just open the view up to the powder room! So that strange shaped wall can be shaped in a decent size closet/extra storage once some duct work is taken out.

I agree the prep sink/space is a little awkward in plan b and I like the prep/island view of plan A.

Aaggghhh!

Plan B for me. It offers better views of the outdoors, and a sink on the wall is a deal breaker for me. It's also similar to my layout which works very well for me. I would move the fridge to the oven wall. I also LIKE the long counter on the back wall of plan B with a pantry on that wall. I use that space in my home to keep the toaster and fruit bowl, and line up wine glasses, ice bucket, snack plates etc when we entertain. It's close to my guests sitting at the island but dosen't clutter up the island. They can help and have access to the fridge & pantry without moving into my zone. The fridge on the stove wall makes it a good snack center. Guests can get in and out of the fridge without coming into my zone. For me, plan B works better for my life style, and the view is much better.

The prep sink was really just moved to the other end...it's orientation can be whatever you want it to be. It also does not have to be on the end, it could be moved 18" or more in. I understand that having 2 sinks close to each other may seem wasted, but it gives the range better access to a water/drain source w/o cutting across to the main sink (aisle + walking steps). The refrigerator could be moved North more, but I was trying to give Ravmd more prep space b/w the range & refrigerator. However, I think that the chances of the refrigerator being open for an extended length of time while someone simultaneously is trying to get by are small. During parties, guests will most likely be going to & fro via the sliding door to the Patio (nicely outside the Kitchen altogether!) and will be going directly to the Beverage/Snack Center, island seating, or FR/DR. The alternate location of the closet appears to give you much better room and a better location for guests...but that would be true of either plan.

All that being said, it sounds like you really want Plan A despite some reservations. If that's the case, then why not just focus on Plan A and lets work on it to see if it can be made any better...

I know this will be hard to understand... but just looking on paper at the 2 plans I think Plan B does look like it fits nicely-nice walls, openings ,flow ,etc. If I was looking at 2 plans for a NEW home, for some reason I believe I would pick plan B. Seems more 'safe' as well.
But I guess Plan A is intriguing since I have been living in this house it seems like the connection to the backyard and patio will be really used frequently and fits how we use our kitchen/outdoors.

Yes there are some reservations-some mentioned above in 'what I don't LOVE about it". One of them was my concern in making that back wall with doors and wet bar "wonderful and dramatic" as cilantro says. My fear is we will try this and not get there. I posted the 3d drawing we got from a kitchen /cabinet place and it was quite underwhelming.But with crown ,trim work , proper colors hopefully it could get there.
I do think I need a back window in the wet bar-we would love to use this as a 'staging area' for grilling with a pass thru and this is my 'side view ' of the yard from the clean up sink.
In previous posts we tried using a walk in pantry to eliminate the 'butler type pantry hallway leading to the office, but we preferred that space open (there is a window in the office and thought that may also help keep things a little 'brighter at that side sink'.

If there were additional changes to be made to improve PLAN A I would love to hear more - I know Rhome and bmorepanic helped a bit with that already.

I think I would consider taking some space from the laundry room and making the mudroom a bit larger. 3 growing boys that play every sport imaginable could use lots of hooks,cubbies,etc

Other things we are considering is
1)either wrapping the oven counter around into the pantry space or 2) having some framing /trim work to transition into the 'butler pantry area' so it doesn't seem like one really long hallway where you are trapped between floor to ceiling pantries on each side. On the left side we may make this a counter with cabs/drawers underneath rather than a floor to ceiling 15" pantry so we have a 'landing spot ' to either load the pantry or for our cell phones or something.

Just some ideas...would love to explore more of getting plan A perfected if possible. Thanks....Sorry for the length!

If you go with plan A, I would either shrink the hutches or get rid the the hutch near the breakfast room and then expand the doorway. If you get rid to the hutch near the breakfast room you'll keep the view to the outside from the front door. And then you could expand the hutch by the mudroom and frame out a bigger window.

I really think it would look great to have a wide expanse of doors off the back of your house and it would really connect to the outside more.

While in my other post I did say I wanted a hutch along that wall and to include a window to the left and right of the french doors. I got some advice that I really can't have both (a furniture looking hutch like piece AND a window) . I do think the more I look at photos I would rather not give up the window and just design the counter space and cabinets possibly to contrast the kitchen cabinets to make it a focal point coming in the front door.
We did play around with having just one longer wet bar type station to the right of the doors and it did seem to throw the kitchen a little off balance /right heavy, but maybe there is a happy medium somewhere.

It does seem like the various arguments are maybe firming up a preference for Plan A? I didn't want to say before because I didn't want a "vote" to have any weight, but that layout does seem to create a rather special room (it's really mainly the through hall that pulls me to the other; I love those). Of course, only someone actually experiencing the space can consult her tummy for that visceral feedback on which space she wants to greet the day in each morning.

If Plan A, though, personally I'd definitely keep both windows and their views and wrap them around with built-in units. Whether called sideboard/hutches or bookcases with doors and cabinets below doesn't matter. They would certainly be a traditional bow to the past, look inevitable and very charming, and be nicely functional. Their depth set between the cook's interior domain and the outdoors would create a nice sense of shelter, and of course add to the privacy.

For that strong visual effect, symmetry seems like a valuable element to retain, and in my mind it seems important that they not look like work counters. There's no particular wow in a pair of them dropped on the far side of a kitchen, and work counters won't enclose and frame that view outside in an important way. "Hutches" would also relate nicely to the living room they're open to, too.

If it worked with the doors and windows, perhaps those doors could be widened by some inches on each side, (could the windows go smaller?), for a space that's still pleasantly enclosed but has a nice relation to the outdoors.

And giving that pantry wall on the left a counter sounds like a good idea, but still retaining a nice sense of separation and transition between the rooms seems right to me on the screen.

I would prefer working in Plan A. Good luck.

If you're not getting the design assistance you're looking for from the current kitchen place can you try somewhere else? Maybe someone else will have some ideas that will push you to Plan A or B. It's not easy....I completely understand.

Do some imaginary cooking in both kitchens. Write down the last couple of dinners you prepared. Breakfasts too. Then with your floorplans, trace your steps as you prepare these meals in your imagination. How easy is it? How convenient? What parts are sub-optimal? Now do the clean-up - load the DW and do your hand-washables. Mentally unload the DW and put away your dishes. What works beautifully? What doesn't? Put away the groceries. Imagine working with your kids on their science fair projects. Serve a casual buffet party for close friends and family. Still good?

Rosie-thanks for all your thoughts-now if I could just take all of your creative ideas and get a picture of what that would look like it sounds exactly what i would like to have -windows with built-ins around theme rather than a work counter (but keeping counter space open for serving things on)

Malghold -I am going someplace this afternoon so will see if they have any creative ideas.More than just plugging in cabinets without giving it much thought.

Sweeby-I have definitely imagined Plan A out and seems like everything goes really well . The only negative I can come up with is small but still important...where to put a TV so the kids can watch something from the island. It was drawn in for above the fridge but it seems that will be so high and their little necks will be looking straight up! But a minor problem relative to everything! I do feel I may use the prep sink a little more than I should for rinsing knives , cutting boards, etc just because it is SO convenient at the island but I suppose as long as it isn't used for raw meat clean-up that it won't be a problem. I do like the clean up area so someone loading the DW isn't bumping into the person returning items to the fridge.Overall the flow seems really good. I have not thought thru Plan B nearly as much so will have to give that some thought.At first glance I may not use the island space nearly as much as I would in Plan A -would likely do more at the counters.
PS -love the rebellion post-it is making me feel a little better!

Thanks for the continued voting!! I could barely sleep last night. I had a dream that there were 235 more votes to be read this morning (why that # I don't know! :))