Gol, you're clever! No layout help here but I'd like to sympathize with that tempting apple of tax credits--same thing here for incentives for geothermal system and insulation which launched a years-long big money not-yet-done project for the deluded heroine who thought she was young and ambitious and the aging hero who thought he could do everything and quickly.

I am not the layout guru, but wanted to welcome you and thanks for sharing your clever story! Love the backsplash window. Hope you keep us posted on your progress!

We can have a window as a backsplash???????????????

I want that!

Um, I mean, what a great idea.

I like the fridge on the not-window wall because it's sort of convenient to everything. Is the window openable? Will it give you any issues behind the stove? If it gets along with the stove, I sort of like it centered on that wall, but I assume there is a reason it isn't.

What's the room to the left of the kitchen? Is that an exterior door on wall A?

Can we have some dimensions and what HAS to stay?

I do love that window.

(By the way, your old cabinets are CUTE but are they as awful to use as they look like they are? That kitchen is screaming to be opened up!)

I like the last 2 L-shaped layouts best because you take stuff out of the fridge, move it right to the sink, move it right to prep, move it right to stove--very efficient, but I have some questions about them.

First, am I correct that the DR is through the door on the left side of the kitchen? How wide is that doorway?

Second, on the second to last L-shaped layout, it looks like the trash cupboard is on the end of the L? Is that correct? Where is it in the last L-shaped layout? Trash on the end isn't optimal since I assume you'll be prepping on the counter space between the sink and range. If you have the DW to left of sink, I'd put the trash to the right of the sink; that way it will be by the prep area.

Last, what will the island be used for besides a casual eating/hanging out area? Can't tell the aisle widths between island and wall runs; this is an important consideration for placement of the island.

It looks like the stove is more centered in the last L pic. I like that better. It looks like it gives you decent space on both sides of the stove.

I like the little shelves on the end of the L in the second to the last pic, but that's a final detail you don't really need now before you have your basic cab layout decided. Ditto on which cabs should be glass fronted.

If you really want layout advice, you'll need to post more detailed pics so we can see the size of the drawers and cupboards all the way around better. We just can't tell exactly what you're proposing from these, unfortunately. But as far as window placement, both of the bottom 2 L's use the same placement.

I like either of the last two (#3 or #4) where the range is centered on the right wall. The fridge looks as though it would be accessible to a doorway on the left. It would work fine to take food from the fridge to the sink (prep) to the range. Snackers could go to the fridge w/o coming between you and your sink/range corner triangle.

But that's me. I prefer to have counter space around the range to sit my 'stuff' (not on the island where someone might be reading the newspaper). I prefer a hood over my range. So #4 would be my top choice.

I would keep the island range-free as a multi-purpose flat surface. Good for spreading out to bake (need outlets), setting out a buffet, homework projects or gift wrapping or on and on and on.

HTH!

PLUS...can I also add that I like the DW placement in #4, near the fridge.

That way someone else can load or unload or get something out of it without coming between sink/me/range.

:)

JMOYMMV

How nice to come home from work to find replies. Thanks so much, everyone.

florantha - So glad I'm not the only deluded heroine! Funny how time looks so different pre-project than during project, yes?

calimama - Thanks for the welcome! Glad folks are enjoying the 'story' - let's hope for a happy ending. lol I'm excited about the window, too. Hope it looks as good as it does in my imagination and inspiration pics.

fori - You CAN have a window for a backsplash! The window doesn't open, it's a picture window. Though it can be made with awning windows, we opted against that to avoid the visual breaks in favor of a panoramic effect. When I researched it, the internets cautioned that it was against code to have a stove up against a window. It's not in my area - they just said make sure the manufacturer of the stove we buy doesn't preclude it. The stove could be centered on the backwall, but the sink keeps ending up there, too...

The room to the left of the kitchen is the dining room, and the exterior door on wall A is the soon-to-be-installed slider to the backyard. The DR area is 126" by 117" - the kitchen adjoins as basically one big room with a beam and little divider half-wall thingy. Kitchen dimensions are basically 200" by 119" with an additional 5" for the post depth at the end of the exterior wall run. Thanks for the complement on the 'cute' but inefficient cabinets. When we moved in they were 70's oak laminate. We painted them white and breathed new life into them but they are gasping again. I'm so sick of having my pantry goods in an upper cabinet, all of my glasses stuck in one little cupboard and a waterheater in my kitchen I can't tell you...I won't even get into the 2 inch wide tupperware cabinet. ;) SO glad to hear it is the kitchen screaming to be opened up, I thought that screaming was coming from me!

flwrs n co - I admit, I'm partial to those 2 layouts, too - which would mean taking the BS window to the corner. To answer your questions: yes, the DR is to the left of the ktichen. The doorway is 64" long, as there is a little short half-wall bumping out on the other side to divide the walkway from the DR. Plenty of room there to get around the fridge, I think? The trash cupboard is next to the sink. I put a second one for a kitty food station in that 2nd to last plan. It got removed in the last plan, replaced with an IKEA shoe holder mutated into cat food holder by the fridge. I'm totally with you on the trash-sink-DW thing. In terms of the island, I go back and forth. I like the idea of basically being able to sit and visit, read the paper, look out the BS window, drink coffee, eat casual meals, maybe even hang on the computer. I don't have kids. The aisle widths are 3'3" on each side currently, and 48" between exterior wall counter run and the island. Thanks for weighing in on window placement, that is THE key decision right now. I'll post more detailed pics somehow which show the cabinet sizes, etc. Right now, I am just focused on basic plans to figure out where to place this darn (hopefully eventually delightful) window.

biochem101 - I'm feeling partial to those layouts, too, though I've been shocking myself with how much vacillation I have been doing since I started this. I'm going to take that for another vote to push that BS window to the right. You make a good point about not having a barrier between stove and sink. I was thinking the DW would block access to the fridge from that side of the room and folks around here seem to fixate on opening up fridges....lol I like the single level island without sink or stove, though I was suprised at how non-aversive I was to the stove-on-island options once I saw it. The island just can't be very big. I think it would make it at least appear larger if nothing is on it and it is one flat surface.

Do you all think it's going to be hard/strange to have a tile backsplash on one part of the L and predominant window with minimal tile on the other part? The current plan is to have a few rows of tile (something relatively neutral like brick or subway in neutral tones) above the counters to hold outlets and I'm not sure how we would integrate that with the other wall if we have it as open and full of counter space as we have in these later drawings...

In my original plans, I was only putting floor to ceiling stuff on the L (fridge, pantry, microwave storage cabinet that looked like a buffet thingy). That removed the problem of integrating BS for the entire L, but was sort of closing in the space. I'll look for a pic of that.

Sort of like this, though this is an earlier plan with no seating at island, etc...

See how it closes in the L? Less counter space, too. But it does eliminate the problem of having to move into a very different BS on that wall.... Thoughts?

Thanks in advance!

PS - What the plans don't show is that there is a short hallway to the right of the kitchen/LR beginning where the beam is going. That leads to 2 bedrooms and a small bathroom. The furnace closet is in the hall, and a niche for the W/D is outside the bathroom.

PPS - Any thoughts about the banquette/pantries in the DR area?

I love everything about the last pic. #4.
For me I like to have some space around me when I am
cooking. And the range on that wall seems to be perfectly
balanced. You could have artistic tile around the range
on that wall only as a form of art.

If you have the space seating around the island is always
nice. I like the glass cabs above the window. I know this
is not in your last pic but you could incorporate this and
even add interior lighting to the glass cabs. This would
be lovely at night when you have darkness outside but
lighted cabs on the inside of your kitchen.

A few tasty appetizers along with a bottle of Zinfindel
for the summer nights with the laughter of friends
while you finish cooking would be dreamy.

Outlets can be placed under the upper cabs. Discreetly or
inside drawers. Some people use plugmold. Not sure if I
like plugmold but this is just me. Others love it.

The window as backsplash is clever. Do not worry about
making it work with simple tiles and merging it all into
the space you have. It can work nicely, especially if you
use the range on one wall as the center peice for tile.

I think storage of dishes etc in a dinning room is fine.
It can be tricky storing staples of food in the DR.
How many people are you feeding? How much space do you
need? I have a family of 5 and your kitchen would be
plenty of storage for my family.

~boxer

I like the galley layout with no L but I'd make the island wider and put the seating on the back side so that it faces out the windows and gets bodies away from a traffic zone.
We used Ikea upper cabs on the back side of our island because they are less deep. They covered the back side of the island which would have needed a cover panel and also allowed for more counter space. They are good for the pantry type items that are less often used (i.e. costco overflow).

I prefer to skip the L shape because I do not like corner cabs and it makes counter installation much easier (no seams in our plan). My previous kitchen had a corner sink with wasted space behind it and was a pain to keep clean. In our previous house, we had a lazy susan as the corner upper and a dead space cab below. Neither option was ideal. I know there are all sorts of gizmos and gadgets to try to reach the back corners, but they cost more money and take up usable interior space. We were able to use all drawer lowers (not counting the sink cab) because we have no corners. A galley layout is great for cooking because everything is within reach and if you design it to keep out traffic flow, it is very cook friendly.

You can put a mini bs behind the stove and still have seating behind that. I have seen nice ones done in the same material as the counters. If you google search multi level islands, you can see different ways to do it as well as looking at the finished kitchens blog here. This way, the seated people have the view of the yard and also can converse with the cook. No one has to worry about backing up their chair and hitting someone passing by. Your island would have more expanse for workspace and storage. Since you are open to the dr, you could make it a bit wider than you have shown.

One thing to consider is you could use the wall on the right for open shelving. It would be a great place for display pieces (top shelf) or even everyday stuff (bottom shelf). With the dw on that end of the run, you could unload quite easily. I'd do the lower shelf at the same height as the bottom of your upper cabs and do another shelf above that. If you start them just past where the dw door ends when opened, they won't crowd your upper cabs on the sink wall.

I like the fridge by the dining room because that gives people access from the yard or dining room without bothering the cook. It would make the dr side of the kitchen for traffic flow and leave the cooking area clear.

Boxer - Thanks so much for chiming in. Your words are leading me to visualize a fairy tale ending, complete with chalises overflowing with wine! We have many dragons to slay first, I fear. ;)

Another vote for #4! Wish I could take credit for that one, but it's an IKEAFANS contribution, replacing blind-corner cabinets with lazy susans. That does provide more storage room for foodstuff in the kitchen if I want to use it that way. What I know is that I am TIRED of digging through upper cabinets for cans, etc...

I was thinking I'd use one of the DR pantries for the rarely used dishware and appliances, i.e., blender, crockpot. The other might end up storing food, I don't know. I'm sick of cereal boxes on the top of the fridge! I agree that it can be tricky to have the pantries in the DR. In my case the small space is working for and against me. It's not exactly a HIKE to get to that wall from the kitchen. But, if I want any kind of table and chairs in there at all, it might mean having to navigate around stuff to get to stuff. Ugh.

In one of the plans, they put a pantry where the fridge is on the exterior wall and ended the other end of the L with the fridge. It was a fine plan, but I'm really liking the stove centered on that wall.

I like the glass cabinets on the exterior wall, also. However, I am getting consistent feedback that they might compete with the BS window, especially once I get 'stuff' in them. My plates, glasses, mugs, bowls and serving dishes are all white or clear so I know I could make it look neat, but it would still be busy. I like the glass uppers because of the traditional look they evoke and that they make the cabinetry look less heavy. More thoughts on that is very welcome.

I've seen those plugs in upper cabinets and using plugmold. We've agreed that would be an option if we find ourselves squeezed for space on the wall.

Here's an example of a BS window with the same dimensions as mine. It belongs to a family member and shows brick tiling to lift off the counter and finish off under the stove vent:

dianolo - For some reason, my long response to you was rejected. To recap...

I started out ambivalent about having a sink or stove on the island. Then, IKEAFANS eliminated the L and put the stove on the island and I was amazed at how much bigger my kitchen looked. I also liked the idea of a 2-tiered island suddenly. Then I discovered that IKEA's planner had modified my dimensions to make everything fit. While I was marveling at how much more spacious my room was and how much island I could get without the L, my room was virtually growing. Too bad that didn't translate to the real world... So, I spent the weekend fixing dimensions again and was disappointed with how it impacted the galley options, reverting back to an L. Who knows, though. If there's one thing I've learned so far it is how much I can vacillate in opposite directions week by week!

Because there is a little pony wall dividing the DR from the kitchen (and the den walls back up to that), there really isn't room to expand into the DR - which is tiny as it is.

Does anyone know how much of a walkway I need between wall and island if there is no cabinetry involved? I think I've forgotten that number... but there isn't much room to take it further right, either. Mostly I can go deeper, not so much wider, I think?

I actually think I -want- to take it deeper, or at least move it further out, because it seems like that beam is the natural place to hang lighting from and so it needs to be over the island at least at the overhang?

I appreciate the reasoning for the fridge being at the end of the run on the exterior wall. Another vote for the BS window pushing to the right corner. The central issue right now is that darn window. I have got to commit to the placement very soon here....

Any other thoughts about the height/location of BS window is particularly appreciated. Time is ticking on that decision. The rest, I have time to continue playing with.

I would ask the family member how easy/difficult it is too keep that glass clean when it is used as a stove backsplash....

I would not do glass doors over the window. I think you want either the glass front cabinets or windows to grab your attention. Having both will make that wall too busy. If you wanted to have glass doors, you can flank the range with glass doors to balance the window.

I am with boxer; I like #4 best. #4 has the DW and stove colliding when open.

You should have as tight fit/reveal as you can with the window, counter top, and the cabinets that you can manage. This will require meticulous design to 1/8th of inch. I have seen some several where the window was flush with the countertop and it looked fabulous. You need to install the window before anything else and you have to have everything worked out including the thickness of the flooring, countetops etc. This is what will make the kitchen glow like a custom well designed kitchen. Use plugmold so that the outlets go under the cabs. Unfortunately, this will be much more difficult to do compared to having a few layers of tile to act as a "measurement cushion"....

My least favorite is the stove on the island.

On 3 and 4, you can try to put in a narrow tall pantry to the left of ref so that the ref can open beyond 90 degrees AND have some food storage in that kitchen. If you are doing DR pantries, then you don't need the food pantries. I think it is a great idea to augment the storage by using cabs in another room.

I actually really like working in an L shaped kitchen. I don't mind corner cabinets. There are so many options out there now that allows you to get things in and out that it is not a big deal, IMHO. In order to make the corner efficient, you need to use the cabinet that has the biggest door as possible so you can get large items out easily. Ikea sells two different models of corner, I think. (it may be the upper corners that come in two different sizes.....)

I LOVE that window. Good luck. We have thought of doing an window like that but we would have looked directly at our neighbors wall and it was not a good view.

Thanks for chiming in, kaismom.

I did ask my aunt and uncle how they finding the BS glass in terms of cleaning. They cook a ton and their answer was the same as someone here on this board who has a similar window. For whatever reason, it doesn't seem to get dirty...

I do love glass doors, but your point is an excellent one. I don't mind just having a touch of glass uppers on the stove wall, really, so long as the exterior wall uppers don't look too heavy.

So, you vote for #4 - and #3 has the DW and stove colliding?

I totally hear what you are saying about designing the kitchen first and THEN placing the window. Unfortunately, I've been overruled and that is not what is happening here... I have to pick the window placement now so the header can go in and it can get installed before the siding goes up. Then, I design my kitchen. Eep, it is making me so nervous. My aunt's bump up right to the bottom of the uppers. Other examples start right at the counter. I'm not sure if should try to just hit one of those as best I can or what... I'm leaning towards taking them up, I guess. My carpenter said he can give me 1-2 inches of wiggle room by wrapping drywall around it so it curves. I haven't even chosen a cabinet company, not to mention flooring, counters, moulding, etc. The moulding and tile could both provide "measurement cushion", as you call it, depending on where I place the darn thing. I have to just make this work. Somehow. I know it is backwards. Thus the title of this thread...

Yes, BS windows are wonderful. Let's hope I can pull it off... *gulp*

My typo. #3 collides and I like #4 best.

I don't know what to offer you in terms of design.... There are places where you can cheat the measurements. Many cabinets come with feet so you can lower/raise 1/4 to 1 inch. (Ikea cabs to this) Standard toe kick is 4 inches but this would be where you cheat.... Countertops can be at different thicknesses.

There is no real standard for where you should hang the uppers. So it will be easier to hang the uppers so that the reveal between the bottom of the uppers and the top of the windows are exact: ie you just hang the uppers where the window top line is....

Standard countertops are at 36 inches from the top of the floor. This will be more difficult to come out exact, and this is where people will need a tolerance. The windows generally have a frame which can be covered slightly if you want to meet exactly at the countertop height.

One of the reasons why people do not build with 1/8 inch tolerance is because it would be WAY too expensive for carpenters to frame, dry wall people to hang dry wall, tilers to tile etc. This is a level of tolerance only the most meticulous workman can accomplish or someone with deep pockets that can afford to have them rip and do again!

Any rate, I would try to meet at least one of the lines with as close tolerance as possible. I would probably chose the countertop to window since that gives the illusion that the window/outside is at the other end of the counter. Unfortunately, this will be much more difficult than meeting the bottom of the uppers....

what your aunt has done will be much easier than meeting the countertop exactly!

If you go with this BS idea, I would try to do as plain/simple of cabinet doors and tile that you like that works with the house. This way the focus is the window. What do you see outside of the window? Do you need to plant a tree judiciously? In Alaska, birch trees with white bark would be rather amazing to look at, if birch trees do okay where you are. I have seen amazing designs of mountain cabins with large windows that look out to snow and birch bark.

Kaismon, thanks for the good feedback. I'm not sure which end we'll try to nail, top or bottom, but it's going to make my life more interesting than I would like either way. I, too, like the windows floating at counter height, but I'd still be happy with my aunt's look and it does provide a little mini-shelf at the window ledge, so that's not all bad.

With these old walls, my partner is more comfortable with the idea of having some tile come up from the countertop because he is not convinced a bead of caulking would take care of gaps along the edge of the wall. He's fine with doing the outlets in the cabinets, but I guess I'm not feeling we have to go to the trouble if we can make them otherwise work low on the wall.

The view will look into our backyard, which backs to greenbelt. We have flowerbeds and an arbor and a shop the size of a garage back there. I'll include a pic. My thinking is that we can add landscaping touches or expand the deck outside that wall and have some fun with deck with pots once we get the window in and kitchen done if we need to add anything to the view. In the winter, that would make a fun way to display little outdoor lighted trees or something.

I just looked and I don't have a pic of the backyard since we replaced the old side fencing. This is the left side of it. There's also an arbor tucked back behind the shop to the right. The backyard is a construction zone right now as the backwall is prepared for insulation and siding, so it will be a while before I can get current pics. We do have birch, but they are to the far right, bordering the shop and the fence.

Okay. I think you're moving MY remodel in certain directions but I'm not sure how to help YOU. :)

I imagine you'll be passing on the palms outside your kitchen window, but your view looks pretty darn good anyway.

There will be no problems mixing tile and window, however needed. I'm sure you've checked local code for outlet height and spacing requirements.

(I kinda like the tall wall of storage--with the island you don't need the counter but with that size house, you need the storage. PLus it looks kinda spiffy.)

I love love love the BS-window. No time to read more just to say how lovely it is. And a note about getting your posting rejected. Sometimes (not always ... huh???), GW software rejects your attempt to post if you've posted too frequently or recently (cause conversely, sometimes it rejects when you're not the last poster, but maybe it's a time-frame thing). Don't even bother (IMO), trying to figure out why, just when it happens, go back and change the title. Just even to a period. Then try again; it usually takes it.

One other caution - if it says something like 'computer busy; try again later' - something like that, I can't remember what it was exactly -- sometimes that means it has actually posted your message and attempts to try again result in multiple (embarrassing!) posts.

I look forward to reading this later on...

LOL @fori! So glad my angst is providing inspiration for someone. Seriously! At the least, "Don'ts" provide cautionary tales for people to learn from. Sometimes even in fairytale form. :)

Yes, my aunt's place is in Florida, so palms are a bit more suited there. It is interesting to note, though, that her palms are actually potted out on her patio, not in the ground. I wish I had current pics of the backyard, but oh well. It gives the idea, just think cedar wood tones instead of redwood and orange. Add an arbor and a big yellow structure. You are almost there. lol

I did some checking earlier on code for outlet heights and spacing, but I think I might have just looked at national code. I suppose I should add that to my list of things to confirm pre-header. Gads, this is so backwards! *swoon*

My original designs were going for that tall wall of storage with fridge, pantry and perhaps a microwave in the mix, but the dimensions ended up being really tight AND it made working with that corner of the L even more tricky. I really do love that look and envy those of you who are lucky enough to have it. I'm just not sure it's made for people with small kitchens like mine! It means having all of those other appliances crammed on one wall - or going back to a sink or stove on the small island.

And now that we are looking more and more at having the fridge or the pantry on the far left of the exterior run and I'm open to putting in pantry in the DR area, I'm just not sure it's the way to go. I do like the stove having its own wall and how the latest options do open up the L with counter space.

There's so many ways to go here. Hopefully that means I'll be happy with the option we eventually choose. It is just so incredibly difficult to lock in on the BS window location and height with all of these unknowns. I keep telling myself that pushing it into that corner will not lock me in and I'll have lots of options left if I want to tweak.

Right now, it's the BS window height that is giving me fits. How the heck I can lock in on that when we don't even have any material decisions made, I don't know. This is dicier than I think is prudent, but I can't seem to stop this train. That window is going in. Soon. And I'm going to need luck + clarity or magic blue pills. I have these images of me being back 3 months from now, posting to GW about how the heck to make (fill in the blank) work given the window. :D

Aliris, thanks for the information on posting. I was nervous to retitle for fear it would start a new thread. Good to know - along with how to avoid the dreaded double post!

I look forward to hearing from you when you have more time. Trying to keep this comedy from turning into a tragedy!

bumpity-bump
or is it my heart thumpity-thumping

I think today is the day I have to commit to the window location.

Any final thoughts welcome.

In the meantime, you can find me with my tape measure dividing up 90" of wall space every way you can slice it with an 120"W X 18"H window.

I'm mostly a lurker here but wanted to put in my 2 cents. =) I like the L shape with the window to the right and the stove on it's own wall. I personally wouldn't like the stove in front of the window or on the island. Good luck!!

Thanks, sassafras springs. I'm honoured you came out of lurking to put in your 2 cents - I'm trying to do that, too.

Thanks even more for the luck - every heroine in distress needs so much of that after treading into the forest and I have zero luck genetically so it's always a quest to find some. ;)