If someone is loading or unloading, or one then the other, the dishwasher is open for quite awhile, right in your way. It is very often that I am cooking dinner and I have the kids unloading the dishwasher to set the table and/or loading the predinner dishes so that there's not such a big job to do after the meal. Not having these 2 things conflict would be VERY important in our house.

It's a problem...Trust Me.

If you're going to expense of building or renovating, don't do something that won't work for everyone to be in your kitchen together at the same time. My husband often cleans up for me while I'm cooking. There's a reason you're getting the feedback you've received. This is the time to reorganize your layout (and your thinking) before you do something that will absolutely drive you crazy in the end.

In our case it is imperative that we be able to open the DW/Refrigerator/Oven at the same time.

I cook, my DH cleans up (and kids if homework allows). He's pretty good at clearing the table and scraping/rinsing dishes. in the evening and about half the time he loads & runs the DW that evening...more often he does it the next morning.

Emptying the DW (by DH or kids) is usually done while I'm cooking dinner...plus I'm often getting things out of the DW to use while prepping/cooking.

If you live alone or are someone who is very disciplined about getting dishes done & put away after meals, then it may not matter. However, if you have children and/or a DH/DW/SO who may be using the DW (loading/unloading/picking & choosing!), then I strongly recommend you be careful about placement of the DW. I actually expand that recommendation to anything that opens into an aisle...DW, Oven, Refrigerator, Trash Pullout, MW, etc.

JMHO & HTH!

OTOH, I live alone and NEVER need the oven door open while the dw is open.

If there are many members of your household or even 2 that do things at the same time in the kitchen it can be a big problem. If you cook and clean alone, not so much. For example my sister will do the cooking, hubby will clean up after dinner while she goes elsewhere. No problems. If you plan to sell the house in a few years, could turn others off, but if you are doing this just for your own long term use, do what is best for you. If it is the only way to fit in a dw, definitely go for it! Not having one would be a much bigger turn off!

Sue

Huge problem. I do dishes while waiting for water to boil or unload in-between stirring what I'm cooking. I almost always have the dishwasher open while cooking. Otherwise, you're wasting time standing at the stove.

I was one of the ones on the other thread cautioning you, so I won't repeat myself.

I did almost add onto my response what Sue points out above. It is much less of an isssue if there is only one person using the kitchen at a time. But consider that who uses the kitchen may change (a lot) over 10 or 20 years.

Even with just one user, multitasking could make competing activities more complicated. It is not unusual to find myself starting dinner and emptying the DW at the same time. That would be easier if the DW were out of the way - I have banged my shin on the open DW way too many times!

anna,

I just went and looked at your layout. You definitely have room for a dw without putting it in the way of the oven. That is just really poor design, I think. But moving it might require starting almost from scratch design wise because so much would have to be changed, including location of main sink and plumbing, since the dw needs to be plumbed to the sink. That main sink on the island kind of dictates where a lot of other things can go. Personally, I would have requested the stove where it is and the main sink under the window along the wall and the dw next to it and mabe a prep sink on the island, but again, NOT directly opposite the stove.

Sue

It would be a deal breaker for me. We are always cleaning up at the same time we are cooking, and the DW is open for most of that.

I agree with not putting DW in front of the range. Unfortunately, the "best" place for my DW to be in terms of where and how I want to store my dishes would be with the sink/DW in the island directly across from the range. But...I just can't go down that road, again! Right now my ragne is in the island and my DW opens up into it. While I don't usually have someone loading/unloading the DW while I'm cooking, I'm hoping that if I separate the 2 appliances, I will be able to get more help and have both areas functioning at the same time. I would try and avoid it if at all possible.

we entertain frequently and tend to serve several courses, each with their own wine glass, plates, silver etc. while i don't clean up during a meal when guests are present, we do often load the fist couple of courses right into the dw just to get them out of the way. dh is normally very busy with prep on the next course, so if the dw was across from the stove...well it could get ugly :)

even if you thinkk it isn't an issue for you...think about resale. big mistakes like that can cost you in the long run...far more than tweeking the design now.

Anna,

Did you by any chance request that the sink be in the island and even that the stove be where it is so that you could be looking out into the family room while you work? If so, I would seriously rethink this. If not, your kd does not seem to be doing a great job for you. While I can certainly understand why someone with a very small kitchen, esp a one person household might elect to place the dw opposite the stove ratherthan have no dw at all, I definitely would not do it in the size kitchen you will have with so many other options. IF that is the case, consider picking whatever you spend the most time at, either the stove or sink/dw and placing that front and center so can be part of the activity in the rest of the area, and placing the other appliance along the other wall. It can sink/dw or cooktop/oven or slide in range. Maybe pick the center of the back wall OR the center of the island for it, which ever one you choose. I think the kitchen would be much more fuctional.

Sue

I have heard in the past that some galley kitchens are the best designs because they are so efficient.
Your design of your kitchen is great and similar to the efficiency of a galley. You are correct that the DW needs to be moved away from the range door and because you have plenty of room move it down further on the island.

Sink in your island? yes. I personally never recommend putting a range or cooktop on an island. There are venting issues and child safety issues especially if you are considering resale.
Without seeing your whole kitchen space it's hard to recommend another design but it looks like maybe the island could have been configured with the sink nearer to the refrigerator, maybe an L shape with an angle at the corner to mimic the oven cab angle
Maybe you could post the plan?

sunnyd,

Her plan is posted, that is why I changed my opinion and realized she had plenty of room. I included a link to her post, below.

Sue

Here is a link that might be useful: annab's post about layout

I'm seeing some elevations/perpectives but no actual floorplan?
The entire space would be helpful to judge the room available
thanks

May be it would help if I post the floor plan. Here it is (but missing some windows in the FR and LR which should be ok for this purpose):

Sue, I tried putting the main sink on the other wall but even with the hutch reduced to 24", the sink would be off center in order to accomodate the dishwasher. There would be 12" cabinet, 30" sink cabinet. 24" dishwasher and a 24" hutch. Something like this (please excuse the messy drawing):

I could center the sink if I removed the hutch completely but we have the basement door there so it wouldn't be a good option either.

Think about the zones in your kitchen and how your family operates
Is wall oven still in corner? Where's your microwave?
I would move the sink and DW (Move to right of sink instead)down away from Ref and Ovens
Give yourself a little more room in aisle by REF
Move island down a bit (if you can do 6" do it) see if you can give yourself 48" as an aisle by ref.
You may even want to clip the corner on the island end by the wall oven just to give you more working room.
Also I would put the undercounter Ref under the appliance
garage: create a coffee/snack/cereal area. This will keep people away from your work triangle.
Don't like the "new" location for the main Ref. it creates a wall to the view to your family room. Leave it where it is. (you won't like it as a wall when your cooking)
Do you have any room to add a small auxillary sink by the snack area? Could you do 24" ref? Can you encroach a little by the cab to the left of the range?
Your micro should be close to your snack area if possible.

I know I am late to the game with answering, but yes placement is important. I could never put anything in while dh was at the stove. I am a clean as you go kind of person.

Last night was our first night back in a full working kitchen and it was awesome to be able to get into the dishwasher. I looked up and dh was loading from the other side which was a first. We moved the dishwasher 19" to the right and was one of many smart decisions we made.

Why do you need to center the sink? It's not like there is a window there for you to center it below. It doesn't have to be centered on the wall imo. As long as you have enough counter space on either side of it you should be OK. However if you put the sink on the hutch wall I'd suggest putting in a prep sink in the island.

To respond to some of the earlier posts, we are a family of four, two school-age kids, working parents, different schedules, multiple activities in the kitchen etc. And this is exactly why I am trying to make this work for everyone but I am the main cook so it has to work for me too. DH can't stand any more layout arguments so I am glad to be back here.

Sunnyd, you are right about the refrigerator, if we move it to the "new" location, it definitely would create a wall, this is why we put it on the other side. But I want to still keep it as an option in case the layout turns out to be so much better that it can be looked at as a good compromise.

If we keep the refrigerator where it is, we can move the sink and DW like you said and move the small refrigerator under the appliance garage. I wouldn't want to reduce the garage to less than 30" so that size would stay. But then I have some questions.

If the DW is on the left end of the island, the dishes have to be across from the DW next to the undercounter refrigerator. This presents me with two problems. Problem #1 (big). Pots and pans would have to go to the right of the stove but I have a 24" cabinet there so that wouldn't be enough. Problem #2 (not so big but important): the DW and the dishes would be on one end while the oven/MW would be on the other end so getting a plate and warming something up involves walking through the whole kitchen. I know you suggested moving the MW to the left as well but with the main fridge on the other side, would it help?

annab

Ah, compromises...

You are facing a classic form vs function challenge. I am concluding that the 'form' aspect is very important for you, hence the range hood, side panels, hutch, fridge-not-blocking-light, and centered sink/DW considerations. That is fine. You get to choose the balance because it is your kitchen. No matter how much we all yammer at you!

That said, both form and function would be the best. Especially in a busy household with teenagers.

RE: the cleanup zone on the right side. Sounds like you are thinking of the upper hutch and lower DW as needing to line up exactly. Think outside that box via prioritizing a custom panel for your DW. Make the 24' cabinetry face of the DW fit whatever cabinetry face rhythm works for your upper hutch piece. The DW itself doesn't need to line up, just the cabinetry face elements .

Really. You can put whatever you want on the face of the DW. 2 12 inch 'doors', an 18 inch 'door' and a 6 inch hutch 'leg', fake drawer fronts, whatever...for instance, in your last drawing, the end upper hutch could widen to 36, and below that could be a 24BC by the basement door, then the 24 DW fronted with a pair of 12 inch doors. The seam between the DW "doors" would line up fine. Or do 12 BC then the DW.

(My bias is toward optimal function. I would sooo love to have your island fully devoted to prep and your cleanup out of the way on the perimeter run. But I get it that form is critical too.)

One last thought. The 'fridge-blocking-light issue: I see your bay window and patio door on the bottom left. Is there light from that direction as well as from the side, making the fridge placement maybe less of an issue?? (or is that a north wall?). Also, despite my kitchen being flooded with daylight from east, south and west, I still ALWAYS put on the halogen lights over the range to cook. Like hitting the footights on a stage I guess. So with your layout I'm not so worried about the fridge bulk next to the range run. I'll wager whenever you use the range, you will augment with artificial light there anyway. Especially if your hood is fitted with great lighting!

Keep at it. You are close.

I can't open my DW and the oven at the same time.

not a problem.

I won't allow anyone near me when I'm opening the oven anyway, and it's not like the oven is opened repeatedly. (that's only during cookie-baking time, which is not a time that other people are using the kitchen)

Plus, the oven gets opened at cooking time, not at cleanup time.

So, when someone is standing at the cooktop (or range, in my case), that's the only conflict.

I can open the DW then, and it's nice to be able to, bcs during that cooking time, we also might be putting the prep utensils & dishes in the dishwasher.

But I don't need to open it all the way, usually.

What would be a deal-breaker for me would be fridge/dishwasher clashes. That's when the two are open at the same time.