Oh no - is sink too low and is wall faucet too high? (!)

14 years ago

How could I research my brains out and then forget that the sink being undermount means it will sit even lower??! How does one forget such a thing! My husband and I both have tall torsos, darn it.

So here's my dilemma:

After my contractor put in the lower cabinet boxes today (the uppers were the only original cabs and are staying that way) - and he put the Shaws 30" wide farm sink on its cabinet, my first thought was that the bottom of the sink felt much lower than the bottom of our other sink which was just as deep. I wondered if it was just my imagination cause the new sink is a single-bowl so doesn't have the high center divider (or isn't a sink stacked high w/ dishes - haha). But then my husband came home and said "why does the new sink sit so low? That's going to break our backs." GREAT.

I was just thinking that maybe after the counter is put on, it will make the sink feel higher (?) but then I realized the wall-mounted faucet's levers (which are located at the lowest part of the faucet) seem too high on the wall now. It's a very tall faucet which I knew (15.5" tall), but...even after the counter's in, will the faucet seem or be too high on the wall? Brutal honesty preferred! ;)

Lastly, is it too late to raise the cabinets' heights (and consequently the sink's height), WITHOUT risking making the countertop itself looking too fat where it wraps around the edge? Does that makes sense? I wanted a standard thickness countertop if not slightly thinner looking stainless countertop (to have a period, almost zinc look) so if more plywood is added to raise the height of the cabs, I'm imagining that the front of the countertop (what you see when looking at the edge of it) will have to wrap around more so will look higher/thicker which would look too modern for my kitchen. Is the only solution to just add a strip of wood in front of it (like part of the face of the inset cabinets?) in order to hide the thickness so the stainless counter won't look so thick? Could something like that be done?

Please see the pics below in my Flickr acct. Thank you SO much!

Here is a link that might be useful: Here are a few pics (more in same album) of sink/faucet...

Featured Answer

cheri127

14 years ago

I agree that the sink looks low for a tall person. You don't have to make the countertop thicker to hide the plywood. Instead you could use a piece of trim under the countertop. Our cabinets are from Kennebec Company and included the trim. We used it even though we didn't have a plywood underlay because we like the way it looks. If you look closely at the picture below (not my kitchen, hahahahaha) you can see that there is a piece of dark wood trim under the counter which matches the crown molding and knobs. Ours isn't as beefy and if you installed trim that was painted to match the cabinets, it would be less noticable.

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Comments (21)

sabjimata
14 years ago
I just went through the same anxiety when my sink went in and I held up my faucet! Mine has a dramatic Victorian arc and I was like "oh no" even though I had the same faucet and same sink mounted at same levels in last house. Yesterday our countertops went in and it doesn't seem that drastic.

I think it is going to be okay. Really I do. I never had problems with splashing, like some GW posts will lead you to worry about. It is going to be okay. And when you are rinsing a 5 gallon bucket from the garden, you will be smiling.
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Ok... Davidro1 - Sorry dude for the neverending chatter. And I gave you all crappy and confusing pics to look at, so apologies again! When I get the chance, I"ll give you a much better pic, e.g. of some books set to actual counter height, right under the levers, while levers are pointed in the down position, and while faucet is being held flush against the wall and while pic is taken from the front. Of course you're sick of the issue either way (!) but I'll post it anyway just for a little clarity. I agree that it could "pass." The issue I have is that when one's hand turns the levers in the down position, the edge of the pink grazes the countertop. No big deal, unless one has big hands, I'm guessing. But the second factor is that regardless of the fact that most hands can turn the faucet off without a problem (perhaps Rachmaninoff's hands would have gotten pinched - haha), by the time the countertop goes in, the faucet will just visually appear on the unnecessarily low side, I'm guessing. While I could be wrong, the two factors combined lead me to believe that for all the money I spent on this faucet and the kitchen in general, I should just get it right and not be left slightly annoyed by it. Weedmeister and chicagoans - thank you both for that suggestion. I'd considered it myself, but then realized I like the form and function to be more traditional (horizontal is off, pointed down is on). Indeed, once the faucet's installed, it will sit back over the back part of the countertop, not over the sink. It may be that a little bit of it's over the sink but not much if any. Tresgirls - that's a great suggestion! I really like the look of the levers and the fact that you could turn off the water using the back of your hand if they were covered in something icky like raw hamburger meat (yuck!) so I have to rule that one out. I do love those wheels too though...uber cool IMO. Casey, um, thank you?! Having a hard time understanding what you're saying sarcasm aside (or humor aside?). You know that the counter you see in both pics is just underlayment right? When you wrote that any lower and the handles would be in conflict w/ the countertop, I agree in either case, though the faucet/nipples were never going to be lower. If you meant that were I to raise the actual countertop itself higher than the standard 36", then yes I would definitely agree with you now more than ever. Regardless, the conflict seems to be there regardless of the levers not actually hitting the countertop itself, because of how one's pinky still grazes the counter (though granted average-sized hands won't get pinched) and also because it looks awkwardly low I think (or will especially after the actual countertop's installed). I hope that made sense...it's all a bit confusing at this point, for which I suppose I am to blame. Wow - such proper English on my part! :-o Francy - thanks for making me feel better! ;) I actually lol'd! I wish I could have a sort of time-lapsed video of you edited down to just the clips in which you change your mind each time and explain to your contractors what you want - that would be a hoot! And to cut to their faces as you told them...that would be funny too! I agree w/ everything you said, from handles looking low to needing to wipe under the faucet to the grand scheme of things. Also I wanted to tell you that yes I had the sink raised an inch and then the underlayment raised to match, but my solution was to have the countertop (not yet installed) be only 1" high so that made it all even out in the end (will make it 36" high total and therefor won't have countertop appliance-fitting issues under the upper cabs). I feel much better about it and that silly little inch really makes a difference when leaning over, it seems! The other reason the handles look so low is that the faucet is so extremely high. Thanks everyone!!
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nishka
14 years ago
I just realized my apron front sink sits lower than my previous sink after it was installed yesterday. Our countertop should fit flush because the cabinet was modified to fit the sink and the sink sits at the top of the cabinet. I guess I just have to live with it.
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davidro1
14 years ago
Raise the cabinets' heights by lengthening the feet underneath them all.
Now is a great time to do this.
It keeps the countertop as thin as it is today.
It brings everything inside the cabinets up to a higher level, and that too is great ergonomically.
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willis13
14 years ago
Agree with David...
How high is your countertop going to be, currently?
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chicagoans
14 years ago
I also agree with David. DH and I are tall, and I would sometimes get a backache after a long day in the kitchen. We raised all our counters to 39" with our reno and we love it! Not saying you have to go to that height, but now IS the perfect time to raise those lower cabinets so all your counters are more comfortable.

In case you're wondering... I'm not worried about resale with our higher counters. First, because we have no plans to move, but second because even people much shorter than my 5'11" height have told me that they love the height of our counters.

It's not for everyone, but it would be great if you can make your new kitchen comfortable for you and your DH.
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John Liu
14 years ago
Various issues.

- Your ideal counter height. Lots of threads on this, someone will remember the ''test'', but basically stack boards on the cabinets to simulate the final height of your counter and pretend you are prepping, see how comfortable it is. If you use a raised cutting board, include that. My counter is just under 38'', I use a thick butcher block board with feet, and the height is right for me (6' w/ iffy back).

- Distance from counter to upper cabinets. Where do your appliances live, will you have enough height for your blender and mixer and coffeemaker (current and desired), will the space ''look'' cramped, will there be enough light?

- Height of sink bottom. Deep sinks can be tough on backs, also lots of threads on this. Some people compensate with a sink grid but I think it's better to get the height right.

In your case, would you consider raising just the sink, and having the lip of the sink flush with the countertop, or even raised 1'' above it, rather than being undermounted? It can be an appropriate look for an older house and the style of sink you have, in my opinion. That would let you adjust the sink height and the countertop height independently.
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John Liu
14 years ago
Oh, on the faucet, it does not seem too high to me. In fact, if you end up raising the sink, you may be glad to have chosen a tall faucet.

I found these pics of farmhouse sinks in built-up installations. It is a vintage, period look - to my eyes.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_PI9AgwaTqf4/SstwpxNMHGI/AAAAAAAAB60/DKJ4vmlqfb8/s400/farmhouse-sink.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_QYaYGSTUIDk/S6qT0Oyp6QI/AAAAAAAAGdQ/LmWDmGhwb8w/s1600/100_6046.JPG

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_aA8yTG1XloI/SOiyKLKz-gI/AAAAAAAAJAY/8SCY97r6WIU/s400/MTI_MCCOY_Farm_style_kitchen_sink.jpg
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theresse
Original Author
14 years ago
Thank you so much everyone! Due to having so little time before my contractor comes over, I'll just say this for now:

The cabinets' heights are supposedly standard, though I don't know what that is. I'll measure in a little bit here.

Our upper cabinets do indeed sit lower down than most, so there wouldn't be a whole lot of room for my somewhat tall coffee maker if we changed things too much. There is a little wiggle room though - after standard height countertop goes in.

If I were to ask him to raise all the cabinets a little (I'm not sure how I'd ever determine what that proper height for us would be but I could certainly try), and I were to raise them by the feet as a few of you suggested, how cumbersome would this be for my contractor considering he's already screwed the cabinets into the wall? Is it no big deal to unscrew them, do you know? I'm trying to visualize how you'd raise the feet (?).

I left him a voice mail just now, poor guy. :( I hate being this way! I asked him to hold off on more work until I get back from an errand I have to go on which will take 2 hours. Maybe I shouldn't care, but I hope he's not too annoyed w/ me at the thought of having to wait around a couple of hours and then possibly make changes.

Thank you thank you!
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davidro1
14 years ago
Answer: unscrewing is the easiest imaginable operation.

In fact, the whole operation, of having higher feet, will be easy, and
probably exciting for him since he gets to do something "custom"!!!

(That's humor) and I'm sure the industry people had a laugh at that one.
It's not customization in any significant way. Not at all.

hth
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cheri127
14 years ago
Don't feel too badly for the contractor. It's really no big deal to re-install the base cabinets as long as you don't mind paying for the extra labor. Our base cabinets were installed incorrectly, which was the straw that led to us firing our GC. I hired a carpenter to correct it and it took him a full day to take the cabinets out, cut half of them down and shim the other half up and re-install. His initial quote was $300 but I could tell it was a bit bigger job than he thought so I paid him $400. This was 5 cabinets all 36" or wider. HTH.
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nutherokie_gw
14 years ago
Theresse,

I can't speak to the functionality of your sink height, but I can say that the sink/faucet combination looks beautiful! The faucet is fabulous and doesn't look at all to high in my opinion.
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bayareafrancy
14 years ago
Oooh: I think I remember those gorgeous uppers from the old house forum (where I've only peeked around, but need to hang out more).

I have a similar set up with my 80 year old cabinets, plus a few new lowers designed to mimic the originals.

When I lean against my Shaws, the top lip is about 4" lower than my bellybutton. I'm 5'6" and wouldn't want it any lower.

It looks like your lowers will be painted? If yes, then raising the sink is pretty easy. My Shaws is sitting on shims to make it the right height and levelness. You could raise the sink a bit, and increase the height of the cabs by adding to the top of them. This would need to be covered with trim, or the thicker wrap of counter as you have described.

Experimenting with shims:

The gaps around my Shaws were then covered with Bondo (by me). The sink is completely snuggled into the opening now.

Bondo sink, before paint:

I love my undermount sink, and would never, ever want it upmounted. But upmounting would be an easy way to raise the sink (assuming you do have painted cabs.)

RE: the faucet height. It will probably be fine and very functional. However, if you don't like it later, can you change the spout part? I can't tell from your photo which faucet you have. Mine is by Chicago Faucets, and the spouts are all interchangeable. Mine is "flat" but if I wanted a gooseneck in the future, I could easily change it. Can you do that?

:-)

francy
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willis13
14 years ago
If I remember correctly, to determine counter height you measure from floor to your elbow, bent at 90 degrees, and subtract 6". Then you duke it out with your SO to see who compromises, and how much. :)

"Standard" is 36".
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kitchendetective
14 years ago
"Snuggled." The absolutely perfect description.

"Then you duke it out with your SO . . ." The other absolutely perfect description.
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theresse
Original Author
14 years ago
FYI everyone - the top of the sink is just short of 34 1/4". My contractor said the countertop will be another couple of inches. So it all sounds standard. Too bad I'm not!!

davidro1 - thanks for putting my mind at ease re. how difficult the work is!

Cheri127 - not sure I want to pay $300-$400.00 more. Hmmm...

Nutheroikie - thank you! :) I love the faucet, still (was so worried I wouldn't love it when I got it in person but it's grand).

bayareafrancy - I'm 5'6 too and my bellybutton is 5" above the lip of the sink. Haha. Darn! ;) Thanks for the shims idea. Yes it will be painted. Kind of a pity though cause due to a door that can be swung open to hit the cabinet doors/faces, I feel forced to go with a higher-quality/harder wood for the faces and doors (inset). That means more money...but it seems a pity since the they'll be painted! But I don't think unpainted wood would look good with painted uppers. I don't want an upmounted sink either (no way - I want to be able to clean more efficiently for the first time in my life!). As for the faucet parts, they are interchangeable (within the same company of course) and the company that makes it is Jaclo: http://www.jaclo.com/products/sub_category?cid=123

They do have a gooseneck that isn't quite so high, but it doesn't come with the built-in sprayer as this one does - and I really like having a sprayer but no holes in the countertop. :)

willis13 - interesting. I got my 8 year-old to measure the height from the floor to my elbow and while I'm not sure how well he measured, it ended up being 42" so after subtracting 6" it's at standard height! But the problem isn't the counter - the problem is how low the sink is. But the grid might help a little.

I think I'd be very happy if everything were up an inch or two. I'm not a tall person (though my husband is something like 6'1 1/2) but again, both my husband and I have tall torsos. I'd look really normal if I walked on my hands I think. ;)

I'm really stuck! I don't know what to do. Now's the time, and yet it will cost more and will postpone things more and maybe I'm being too picky. Or not. Shoot.
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weedmeister
14 years ago
uummm...and I'm not too bright about this stuff...but could you make the sink rim even with the countertop? That would add the inch or two you're looking for.
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theresse
Original Author
14 years ago
weedmeister -

I wondered about that but in the end, it would mean the sink were no longer undermounted (just flush) and that would - I imagine - mean there would be exposed calking?

Anyone know of any pics that show a sink like that?

Furthermore...I next have to decide how much sink to expose if any and what the pros/cons are. A friend of mine has the same sink and her undermount style has the sink edges totally hidden. She has a bad side (the side closest to the faucet, due to all that water splashing back there I guess) that looks grown and icky. While she needs to re-calk there obviously, the advantage is that guests don't have to see it. I do like that idea!

I've also seen a pic or two of others' Shaws sinks that people have chosen to show just a little bit of edge. I seem to recall reading that one person those that both for aesthetic reasons AND because the edge of her [soapstone?] was at risk of chipping without having some of the sink edge exposed to help buffer it. At any rate, that look is also nice. I'm wondering how the calking issue is there though and also if food ever catches there when cleaning off counters straight into the sink.

I spoke to my contractor (he's not coming today at this point) and he said it would be cheaper to just raise it from above and hide the plywood w/ bigger facing there. He's concerned about how it would look but said if it's only an inch or an inch 1/2 it shouldn't look bad. He thought it could cost me about $250.00. Not sure how I feel about that. Why is this decision such a PITA?!
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morgne
14 years ago
Theresa,

I only see 3 cabinets on that wall including the sink cabinet that would make it fairly easy to remove them, build a 2x4 fram below them that will increase the height of your cabinet 1.5".

It's difficult to tell with your photos but it looks like you are keeping the uppers now in place? What is the distance you have from the top of the cabinets to the bottom of the uppers? Any change you make that affects the height of the bottoms is going to make that smaller. Do you have that space to give?

What about exchanging the sink for one that is shallower? I know that it's a thought to cringe from but if that's a possibility it might be the easiest course.
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bayareafrancy
14 years ago
The top of my sink is 35.75 from floor. With counter, total is 37.

If it were me, I think I'd go with building up the cabs from the top, and covering the "build up" with trim. Once it is all painted, it won't really show, and then your counter can have the thinner look that you desire. (Well, ideally I guess you'd increase the height from the bottom. But I don't know about the cost, and I have to choose the cheap option. YMMV, of course.)

My sink has a negative reveal of 1/16" and I wouldn't have it any other way. I know a lot of folks here on GW have a positive reveal, b/c they like to show the pretty top lip of the sink. But I have a deep loathing of visible caulk, and I have just never seen a caulk job that made me think, "Ok. Sure. I can have that band of caulk showing." Especially a few years (and a few food stains) down the road. Again, I'm probably in the minority on this. But my eyes see caulk! You need to decide what your eyes see. :-) My cabinet guy tried to discourage the negative reveal b/c he argued that it gets dirty/gross under the edge where you can't see it. Um...I actually wipe down my whole sink every night (and throughout the day), and so I don't let the area get dirty. Problem solved! Finally, the soapstone chipping issue: After 3 years, my soapstone has some chips on the edges. But they blend right in to my vintage kitchen, and can even be easily sanded out. Chips on an exposed lip of a fireclay sink are much, much harder to reapair!

Just my opinionated opinion!

:-)

(Oh--don't forget, you also have to decide how far--"proud"--you want the sink to stick out, which relates to where the counter corners will sit on the sink.)

francy
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davidro1
14 years ago
theresse, you haven't given this thread the essential information needed for you to get good advice. What are the feet made of? If they are just large screws, you turn them by hand and it raises the cabinet.
Examples of screw-to-raise
http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/30076319 akurum
http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/20049538 capita - several lengths
http://www.ikea.com/ca/en/catalog/products/70128972 utby
They all have different ways of hiding the screw threads.
Many other options exist.
If the feet are made some other way, they can still be raised easily.

The post from cheri is not helpful to you right now, because it talked about a VERY different situation, where she had to hire a carpenter "to correct" real problems, i.e. take the cabinets out, AND cut half of them down AND shim the other half up. This is Not At All What Is Under Discussion here.
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Oh no - is sink too low and is wall faucet too high? (!)

cheri127

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