It is not necessary that people be "in"decent or not trustworthy for there to be a disagreement, so I agree with you.

As much detail as possible.

Agreed. As much detail as possible. Anything that is not in the contract specifically can conceivably be-- and likely will be-- considered an extra charge. Best to have it all spelled out up front.

Make him spell it out. If YOU can't remember it all (and you're TKO, am I right?), how can he?

We added so much detail in our contract/spec sheet, and I am so glad I took the time not to leave it on an oral agreement. There were so many things our GC could not remember when it came down to it and all I had to do was show him in black and white. Our GC is a pretty stand up person but with so many other projects going on he forgot a few items. Better to just explain how detail oriented you are and have him laugh with you about it now, because later on down the road, you will feel so glad to have handy dandy contract in hand!

My Mennonite cabmaker provided me with photocopies of scale drawings meticulously done by hand by his wife. He said it was just easier than using his computer. The cabs were perfect and exactly as ordered. (Mennonites use power tools. Do Amish do it all with hand planes and hand saws?)

My GC, who did everything except cabs and granite, did not give me a particularly detailed contract, more like a list, and it was a problem. Like kamkar's GC, he forgot things I said. And it did not have enough detail to serve as proof of purchase for warranties, and he wouldn't give me receipts because he didn't want me to see how much he upcharged me. I didn't realize how detailed it should have been. Live and learn. So I'd say you have the right to expect detailed drawings showing everything about the cabs, and details written about everything else the GC will do, too. If the Amish guy can't provide them because of his religion, and your GC is the one who got the Amish guy, then the GC should provide detailed drawings.

As much detail as possible. I had an issue with my cabinetmaker and if it was not for a detailed agreement I would have been in a world of hurt.

Thanks everyone. We were supposed to sign the contract with the GC this past Sunday. I asked him to send over the contract in advance (we DO, in fact, read the contracts we sign...they loved us when we bought our house!) He sent it over to us on Sunday morning. We had plans and didn't get home until shortly before we were supposed to meet.

He called before he came over and I asked if he was going to bring along the rest of the contract (i.e. exhibits) when he came over. And he said "That's all there is. You talked with the cabinet maker and the price is based on what you talked about."

(Ginny - you already know some of this story, so skip this if you're reading it! haha) We've already had some areas where he's said something and then something else winds up happening. In our initial talk, I told him we wanted frameless, full-overlay cabinets. His initial quote didn't have either. And, it turns out that the Amish cabinet maker doesn't do frameless, period. So, we got through that and decided we could minimize the frame portion and still be okay.

Next, we talked to the GC and asked about a cash discount. Which he said he offered and that it was "x" % of the total. So, we factored that in when deciding who we were going with. Turns out that he now says that our kitchen is too high in price to offer the discount. WHAT??? In my own business, if someone is buying more, it gives me more of an opportunity to offer a discount.

Also, while we were meeting on Sunday, we asked about him painting the walls after the cabinets were in place because the room will reflect light differently once all the cabinets and lighting is in. He agreed that he could do that. He now emailed and said that he doesn't feel comfortable doing that.

Ginny - when we visited with the cabinet-maker, it wasn't really supposed to be our final plan but instead to get a fairly accurate quote. I had what I've drawn up and was still perfecting (it's posted on the forum here)...not to mention that I'm certain my dimensions aren't exactly perfect.

As to the Amish, there's a sticky area there for them in regard to powered tools, etc. Each sect is governed by similar but different rules. Most of them will talk on cell phones, but they won't have them in their home. They will ride in vehicles, but don't drive them. But, the religious leaders from each community set the rules and those within the community abide by them and don't question them.

The GC said that we will get a detailed drawing when we get closer to the date that the cabinet maker will start. But, in the meantime, we need to give $1,000 with a very rough detail of what is and isn't included. My worries are that things will be forgotten or disputed. And I admit, there are a ton of details in our kitchen...I can't keep them straight myself sometimes!

Honestly, I don't know what we're going to do. We're back in touch with our "runner up" and I'm still trying to work on a friendly letter to the guy that we thought was going to do our kitchen, but may not be now.

Ah, my head is hurting and we haven't even started yet!

What contract? :)

I know what you mean about the different rules for the sects. I've read that apparently there's a sect of Mennonites called "Black Car Mennonites" because they are allowed to drive cars if they aren't too fancy - i.e., black cars.

You are right to be worried about not having things detailed in writing, especially after the misunderstanding about frameless. My initial estimate was based on my measurements and drawings, too. I made a lot of changes all along the way, and at every stage I had a drawing - sometimes with handwritten changes on it - and a price. Couldn't they give you as detailed a list as possible at the time of the deposit? If "the price is based on what you talked about with the cabmaker," then doesn't that suggest that someone wrote down "what you talked about" in order to arrive at that price?

The thing about the discount is just wrong. Of course there's more room when you're making more money.

All in all, I agree you might want to find someone else. I worry abut absent-mindedness and misunderstandings, because those were the problems I had with my GC. Stand-up-edness doesn't help if they forget what you tell them. Is there anyone else who works with Amish craftsmen?

Did I tell you how I found the guy who is fixing the mistakes my GC made? I asked my daughter's Technology teacher (used to be Shop or IA) if there are any retired IA teachers who remodel. He gave me a name, and this guy is great. He knows way more than my GC.

if he is changing his mind on commitments he made to you already and he has not even started yet - run, don't walk.

you might consider looking at firms that are a bit bigger. I went with a GC who employs about 5 or 6 guys full time. They had an excellent contract template that was pre-made including arbibration clauses and all the other important details. their prices were same as the smaller 1 or 2 man operations and i felt better about it. while no project is issue free it went pretty well.

my big lesson wirh the cabinetmaker fool i hired: trust your gut. he demonstrated some warning signs and i ignored them. good luck!

Our contract had quite a bit of detail about lots of things, but we hadn't picked cabinets or light fixtures or anything so those were more vague. We had "allowances" for those kinds of things, and also if we decided we wanted more recessed cans or outlets, or authorized an unexpected expense (for example, "you need a new foundation" and "yes, we authorize you to demolish and remove the existing crappy foundation and pour an entire new one...for $Z K"), it was all documented in change orders that everyone signed. DH and I are very happy with that.

If you do go with Amish cabinet makers, these or others, and are concerned about their writing things down but not being able to photocopy them for you, you could always take a picture of their notes with your camera or camera phone. That would help you remember as well as documenting to whatever GC you use "what you talked about." I am always taking pictures of furniture, appliances, light fixtures, etc. in stores along with specs/prices on the tags for those items. It usually takes to long to write those things down and is too tiring, for me anyway, to try to remember what we looked at and to keep things straight.

I wonder if there is any such thing as "too much documentation." So far, not in my world!

Good luck!

bean