Thanks for ranting. I love it when someone challenges "the rules", if only to start conversations.

I am not a designer, but my response to your comment that a fireplace is background noise is to say two things.

1 -- I think every person must decide for themselves which item(s) should get the most attention in regards to placement, colour, design, etc.)

and

2 -- the focal point *is* the focal point. Meaning, whatever you have given attention to, intentionally or not, will draw the viewer's eye, especially to a newcomer in the room. So if you don't want to decorate around the fireplace, *don't*... but you may have to go as far as to decorate *away from* the fireplace (subtle colour and move other furnishings away from it, etc.)

Most TVs aren't particularly attractive or stylish, so that's probably why most designers don't like them as focal points, but if that's how you function and are comfortable... *shrug*

Suero, you are so right about the TV over the fireplace!

Prairiedawn is also right that the focal point is what it is. And grouping around the fire is an old program deep inside most of us...we are naturally drawn together around the safety of the campfire; its heat, and its light. It is soothing and relaxing, and joins us as a family and a tribe.

I have a frequent rant about lighting in restaurants, based on that way we draw in around the fire. Low ambient light is fine, but for heaven's sake, give me a pool of light in the middle of the table so that I can, one, see my (expensive) food; two, feel pulled in with my dinner companions; and three, hear what everyone is saying, and see how they are reacting, because I can see their faces. Have you ever noticed how much louder dark restaurants are? You can't hear when you can't see, and you can't sustain a lively conversation without being able to interpret facial expression and body language.

The best illustration I've experienced of this was a big party we threw in the back yard years ago for a young couple getting married. We did an Italian picnic (they were So Bored with the same cocktail party over and over!); we had tables strewn around the yard with big baskets of grapes and peaches and ivy in the center, and when it began to get dark, most of the young people left to hit the clubs, we sent our helpers home, and lit pillar candles in glass hurricanes in the center of each table. The grownups poured another glass of wine and settled in around the warm firelight at the tables until nearly midnight. I was exhausted (the party was supposed to be 4 to 8), but it was lovely and memorable, and I learned another big lesson about the elements of hospitality.

Growing up, my parents refused to have the TV in the living room. So at night, if we lit a fire, we did tend to sit around it and look at it, at least part of the time. The TV was usually in the rec room in the basement and there was no fireplace. And I've lived in houses where there the wood stove was used to heat the downstairs, so not a total decoration but part of the heating system. It's also handy to have a fireplace in the winter in case the power goes out, so you can heat at least one room and do some basic cooking (like baking potatoes wrapped in foil in the ashes).

I have seen living rooms where there were chairs or a sofa set with their backs to the fireplace, usually in a room where the view out the windows was the focal point.

We don't even have a TV in the living room, let alone as a focal point.

But humans have been crouching around fires for thousands of years. I think a fireplace or a stove says "home" and "security" to many people, and that's the attraction as well as the look.

You think the purpose of a FP is only for a photo-op? Am I understanding this correctly?

Our FP is the focal point but we didn't build it specifically to be the focal point. It just is because it's massive because we actually use it often and cook in it.

I understand about the TVs being on the mantel, it drives me bonkers, but I don't understand your intense dislike of fireplaces.

And I don't have a TV at all, but if I did, it would be in the living room. In fact, it would be IN the fireplace, since it's non-working anyway. Dueling-focal-points problem solved. As the great decorator Bunny Williams says, "If you want people to use your living room, put a TV in it!"

Magnaverde Rule No. 16:
Decorate for the life you really have, not the life you wish you had.

Yes, I have a fireplace, but no, there's no fire in it. Not when it's 95 degrees outside.
I suppose people do like to look at fires. Why else would the WPIX-TV Yule Log be such a hit?
I do have romantic dinners by candlelight, though. But my focal point then is DH.

Suero, Once I get that TV, I plan on playing that Yule Log loop six months of the year. No fuss, no muss, no Jersey Housewives.

My DH and I are both borderline pyromaniacs, so we really can't live without the FP. In the summer, we'll have a backyard fire when it's too warm inside. I agree about no TV over the fireplace (I have a large manzanita branch there). I had to beat off a designer and the contractor on that issue when we remodeled. Our TV is next to the FP, and too large for it's spot, but what we do on cool evenings is have a fire and watch TV or read so we are definitely decorated for the life we have, which is also the life we wish we had!

And yes, we both watch the fire. It's very soothing, like watching a stream. There's something very engaging about having a force of nature alive in our LR.

We have two fireplaces and the one in what most people would call the family room is massive and lovely has a great insert that puts out some good heat. It could be the focal point. On another wall we have a big TV. It could be the focal point too because when you sit down, you're facing it. But when you walk into the room you don't see either of those right away because you see all the books instead. :)

For us the books are soothing and the roar of the fireplace is a bonus.

Magnaverde, I haven't been around here long enough - perhaps I've missed them somewhere along the line but I would love to hear Rules 1 to 15. :)

Suero, not even on a cold, rainy or snowy day? Curled up with a good book and a cup of coffee?
I removed my wood burning fireplace on the main floor and replaced it with a gas one in another room (only because I figured it would lower the resale value someday to NOT have a fireplace on the main floor, otherwise I could have lived without it). I miss the crackling sound the most, and I admit I would find myself staring at the flames, totally lost in thought. Same thing happens with candlelight. Maybe there's something primal about it...

Aesthetically, a room needs a focal point. Often it's an architectural element, like the fireplace, that's seen as you enter or pass by. There can be more than one. A primary and a secondary room feature. For example, a fireplace and bank of windows or a spectacular view.

If there are multiple architectural features, one might be or should be made more dominant or important than the other. Sometimes there is no architectural feature so a decorative focal point is created.

When actually using a room, maybe the tv or the view becomes more important or a secondary focal point comes into play. But when you enter, having a focal point organizes and introduces the room, maybe states its function. Often the bed is placed and used for this in the bedroom. It's great when passing by, as the room's primary focal point is framed at the entrance, maybe stating its function.

Aesthetically speaking, would you want to walk into a room and not really see anything stand out? No visual focus or organization?

It's a good organizational tool that can be used both visually and functionally.

Our fireplace is a really old wood stove and it's lovely, we use it to heat the home in the winter and it is just naturally an eye catch. The tv is also in the room and it just sits there minding it's own business and not drawing attention unless it is on. The "focal" points in our home are the folks that are in the room, the rest of the stuff is just decoration or serves a purpose =)

The Victorians and the modernists often moved them to non-primary focal-point positions.

Where they were used for heating, particularly when they started to have that glowing gas element (or whatever it was) in the firebox, they started to be tucked into corners often adjacent to a doorway, so in this location they were not a primary focal point. Same in secondary rooms like bedrooms. By the time you hit the fourth floor in my 1840 building the firebox is way off center in the room because of the more-centered flues coming up from the more "important" rooms.

The modernists often built low wraparound fireboxes off in the corner or in a central location that was highly visible but not necessarily in a location where a seating group can be arranged around it.

However, people don't seem to warm up to fireplaces in out of the way locations, people tend to like symmetry, and what a fireplace symbolizes.

There are three fireplaces in the house I grew up in. In the formal living room (no TV) it is the primary focal point although it is not the primary seating group. In the library, it is opposite the door so it is a focal point but the TV is to your direct right as you enter (opposite the fireplace) and most of the furniture faces the TV, (or the view) but somehow the fireplace doesn't feel "ignored".

The basement has a big fireplace and there is a smallish TV on an old fashioned TV stand kind off to the side in front of it. Basic, honest and unapologetic. I haven't looked at a lot of European design magazines lately but when I did, it always seemed like they had the TV plunked wherever it made for the best viewing even if it was in front of some spectacular architectural element in a Venetian palazzo.

Magnaverde...I've often thought that a TV in the fireplace would be better than over the fireplace too...easier on the neck.

Adding insult to injury here...I think my family room has 2 focal points...the TV in the armoire and the gas fireplace. If I am not looking at the TV and especially if I have the armoire closed, then I look at the fireplace and the grandfather clock next to it. I don't think you have to have just one focal point and think the activity in the room can direct what draws the eye.

I've never considered a TV OR fireplace to be the focal point in a room. IMO, whoever conceptualized that idea was trying way too hard in bringing something unique to the 'decorating table', and many people/designers bought into it. Invariably i'll notice a beautiful piece of furniture, an area rug, or even the furniture placement, w/o giving even a first glance to the fireplace. Let's face it, not all fireplaces are extraordinary works of art.

As for a TV *above* the fireplace, that's the *worst* 'decorating trend' that could ever 'grace' a room. What is so important about a TV that it should have such prominence in an otherwise beautiful room? Are we so absorbed in being entertained that it's become a god-like decorating icon? I'm all for keeping every TV in a home behind closed doors~out of sight, out of mind. ;o)

Patty, I'm like you, I don't notice focal points either. I've been in nice homes where the whole room is a focal point and I like it.

I don't even like the word "focal point." It's as if we must think of a focal point first when we put pen to paper in designing a living room. Who does that?

Magnaverde's Rule #16 is the best, that's what I've always done. I decorate for me, not for company.

We have a wood burning fireplace in our living room and have two wing chairs flanking it. Across from it is the sofa and two club chairs. It IS the focal point of that seating group and it IS used for the cozy feeling it evokes. We do not have a TV in that room. The room is used for conversation, reading and playing piano. We're in New England and could not live without our fireplaces. Our chimney is a massive center-of-house style, with the main opening in the LR and then it branches off to allow for a corner fireplace in the kitchen.

In the FR we have a gas stove in the corner that's hooked up to a thermostat. Voila...instant heat and ambiance.

Perhaps much of the discussion depends on where you live and what your lifestyle is.

As for TV over FP--never quite understood that concept. As has been mentioned it's bad ergonomics, but to each his/her own.

I don't see that anyone here has "an intense dislike of fireplaces". Suero simply stated her opinion.

"Aesthetically speaking, would you want to walk into a room and not really see anything stand out? No visual focus or organization?" I agree, and like it or not, a room is going to have a focal point. I'd much rather that focal point be a pretty fireplace, a beautiful view, etc. than a tv.

Patty - I so agree with you on this "What is so important about a TV that it should have such prominence in an otherwise beautiful room? Are we so absorbed in being entertained that it's become a god-like decorating icon? I'm all for keeping every TV in a home behind closed doors~out of sight, out of mind. ;o)"

Nothing wrong with a tv, but let's face it, they are not very attractive.

We're in the south and have mild winters, and even though we don't actually use our fireplace alot, we have one. I enjoy the ambience of a fire and besides, you need some place to hang the stockings! ;-)

tina

I dunno, I can see deemphasizing a TV, but trying to completely hide the TV in a room where that is one of the major activities is like trying to hide the bathtub in the bathroom. People watch TV. That said, I have "small TVs" compared to most people, so maybe having them sit there in plain view isn't overpowering.

Oh I know where you are coming from Pal. It depends on the household. We don't watch alot of tv in our house. The tv in our great room and also in our bedroom are both in old armoires and the doors are generally closed when the tv is not in use.

Also, the greatroom is also used for entertaining, etc. and at those times I do not want the tv to "intrude" (for lack of a better word LOL). But mainly, for us, tv is not a major activity, more like a minor one. Hope that makes sense!

tina

As far as focal points in general go--and the supposed necessity of having them--the great Nancy Lancaster said it best, even though she didn't exactly use the term: "You never want to have only one mouvement thing--like the Savonnerie rug--that would stand out. You must have mouvement everywhere."

That's the advice I followed at my old apartment. No bossy focal point, but lots of stuff everywhere and a major symmetrical arragngement (or as close to one as I could get, considering off-center doors & such) on every wall. That way the eye keeps moving around the room. I loved the way the writer who wrote up my place for Oprah's magazine O at Home put it:

Magnaverde "embraces [decorator John] Fowler's lack of pretense and scoffs at the idea of a color scheme. Nor does he cotton to the idea of focal points. 'Let people focus on whatever they want', [MV] advises."

I refer often to "The Old Way of Seeing" by J. Hale, where he discusses how modern architecture has lost its innate sense of proportion as other priorities in design/building have taken over.

In the houses that form my complex (1840s, mostly) there is not a particular focal point in any of the rooms. Almost every room had a fireplace--or two--; the first floor rooms were connected by elaborate pocket doors, the windows are spectacular, there are medallions on the ceiling. Even my bedrooms, which were maids rooms or box rooms at one time, and very plain have the entrance across from the windows, so although the room does not have a particular "focal" point, your viewpoint is really directed beyond the room itself.

In a lot of more modern construction, the layout seems to place doors at 90 degrees to the windows (say the LR and DR entered from the front hall) and the first thing one sees, when looking in the empty room is a blank corner.
So there has been a shift from no particular focal point with lots to look at, to no focal point with nothing to look at, from an architectural standpoint. Understand that the house I live in has No side windows at all, as a row house, and they same problem could have occurred: a point of entry into the room that faced a blank corner. It doesn't because they thought about where to put the door.
(Granted these houses are very large and door placement has a bit of wiggle room. But how many designers today would have you walk past most of the room and put the door toward the end that turned you back and gave you the best viewpoint...not many).

The easiest way for a builder to give an important public room like a living room or den an architectural focal point on a wall that would otherwise be blank is to plonk a fireplace in the middle of it. Since TVs have become so important this has created a lot of problems in some houses. But in some ways, it gives people a reference point. And a fireplace gives people a sense of---comfort, or something more ineffable than that--hard to verbalize.

Not everyone has the ability, or the amount of "things" to take a complete blank box and do the Nancy Lancaster treatment with it, like MV has done. A lot of rooms with no architectural feature, still look like rooms with no architectural feature after they are furnished. It can take piles of stuff to create that "effortless" scape that the eye travels across.

" I don't even like the word "focal point." It's as if we must think of a focal point first when we put pen to paper in designing a living room. Who does that?"

Professional decorators and designers do. They do it because it works. To organize and to create an organized looking and aesthetically pleasing space.

Using multiple focal points, with different degrees of emphasis works well. Kind of like highs and lows in the landscape. They direct and hold your interest around the room. That doesn't mean all the other stuff doesn't get seen and enjoyed along the way. If a room is small, maybe only one feature is more prominent. Could be just decorative, like the dining room table area in a space without a window. Whether you play it up or not, the dining room table in that space will still be the focal point (unless you hang a huge piece of art or something to visually dominate it ;) It just is.

I agree with whoever above said that, "like it or not, there will be a focal point in the room." Even if it wasn't planned by an architect or whoever decorated, there will likely be an element or center of activity that gets people's attention first. Why not dress it up a bit for beauty or effect?

Now if you've got an ugly fireplace that isn't so large that it will just always visually dominate, maybe you can shift the focus off or away from it. That would also be a good application of using a focal point to de-emphasize other areas.

To each his own, visually and functionally. It really isn't done for company (although certainly some people are concerned with that, or that too). Design is about function first. Creating what's useful and right for the people who use the space. Guidelines (aka 'rules') are only that. A guide for what typically works or to help identify and correct what isn't working. Past experience to draw on. We all have and use them for the various things we do. Sometimes they're ours, sometimes they're acquired through education. They're tools used to create something you'll like. The space can still look informal, casual, homey, and un-decorated in the end if you like. Even if it is using its focal points.

Amen on the TV over the fireplace ... I've been scratching my head over that since I first saw that becoming a trend. What an uncomfortable way to watch tv ... and an awful focal point.

3 of the 4 walls in my family room have their own focal point, depending on what you are looking at. The right wall has french doors looking out to the 3/4 acre pond. The large wall along the side is custom built cherry bookcases, wood burning fireplace, with a tv sitting on top of one of the waist high cupboards. The left wall has a beautiful bay window filled with orchids ... choose your own focal point.

pamghatten, what do you see as you enter? Which wall faces the entry?

You've got, and are lucky to have, multiple focal points. On a scale of importance, the primary, dominant one is the long wall of bookcases and fireplace. That's a pretty massive unit and makes a big statement in the room. Wouldn't it be a lot less interesting without it? Would you want to, or could you, de-emphasize it in relation to the other elements? And so that they were all equal? You could paint it all out the color of the wall and it would be less obvious or toned down but would still be a dominant feature given its relative mass and scale, as well as textural quality.

Often that wall is placed directly across from the main entry where it's on full display. A greeter, so to speak. That's the focal point for your room and you'd be hard pressed to have something else take visual precedence. As the dominant architectural feature, you likely plan your main seating area around it and facing it because its function is handy, it's structurally beautiful to look at, and it contains a warm fire if you use the fireplace. (Personally, a fireplace is a beautiful view for me whether it's lit or not.) It also provides storage for the tv, ever so important in today's world. Wouldn't it be odd to turn your back on it? Or not pay much attention to adorning it?

Being prominent, you'd want to put some effort into making sure it looks good 'cause it's going to be standing out whether you like it or not. (A lot of people really don't care about what things actually look like, but those people probably wouldn't be reading a decor board.) Something like that is also a backdrop for your seating area.

The French doors with a view to a pond sounds like your secondary focal point having more visual dominance than the bay window. You might accent it with beautiful drapes (or not for some). Capitalizing on its view from the seating area would also be a high priority for me.

Then there's the bay area, likely less dominant overall than the French doors.

In terms of not paying attention to focal points, color, for example, is often used around a focal point to highlight it. You wouldn't, however, do something dramatic like paint the French door wall (your secondary focal point) in an accent color. It would compete strongly with the main wall and wouldn't feel or look right. Why is that wall red? And it keeps grabbing your attention in an uncomfortable way. Not much flow. You could, of course, but it doesn't really make visual sense or feel right, does it.

Color choices can be scaled to the focal areas, also, as some colors are more predominant than others. If you used red heavily to highlight all your focal points because you love them, it might be a bit overwhelming and confusing. Scaling the use of color, thinking about where you want some emphasis and its overall effect, would work better.

For the overall space, scaling the focus throughout feels/flows better, looks better, and is more balanced, orderly, and interesting to look at and to experience. Whether you're aware of it or not, you're probably doing it or seeing it, and it probably affects whether you like or don't like a room or something in a room. All attention being proportioned equally would be pretty flat and confusing. Don't you try for that sort of variety on a small scale, when creating a mantel or tablescape?

Focal points and emphasis really do make a lot of effective sense.

Pal and Springmeadow - thanks for taking the time and effort to explain. I've learned a good bit from your responses! Springmeadow - I know Pal is in the design business, I'm curious as you are also? Whatever, you are certainly educated in design.

tina

BINGO~~right on the money, spring'md! I see it as a decorator shortcut to 'now-what-in-the-world-do-I-do-with-the-tv? not in thinking/feeling it's a way of'creating an aesthetically pleasing space'. Do *you* really believe that?

Your last paragraph says it all:'for the overall space, scaling the focus throughout feels/flows better, looks better, and is more balanced, orderly, and interesting to look at and to experience. Whether you're aware of it or not, you're probably doing it or seeing it, and it probably affects whether you like or don't like a room or something in a room. All attention being proportioned equally would be pretty flat and confusing. Don't you try for that sort of variety on a small scale, when creating a mantel or tablescape?'

If you're not a designer/decorator spring m'd, your viewpoints are right on target, at least IMO. ;o)