My sympathy to this poor young girl;
please give her all the unconditional support & love that you can.

Orthodontics isn't just cosmetic.

Crooked teeth are more prone to trap bacteria, resulting in inflammation of the gums, nasty breath, & tooth decay.

They need to be straightened, & it's far better & far easier on the patient if it's done in the teen years rather than later.

When I got braces at 30, it was much more difficult for me than it would have been had my mother permitted it when I was in school (my mother was a narcissist among other things).

When I whined about the blinding headaches, raw mouth, & aching jawbones I had for 2 to 3 days after every visit, while the kids in the office acted like it was a day at the park, the dental tech told me that teens have 2 advantages:

1. a higher threshold of pain;
as we get older, everything really does hurt more.

2. softer bones;
it's easier to move the teeth through younger jawbones than through older, more calcified jawbones.

Also, moving teeth later in life is more traumatic to the teeth themselves, & the roots shrink more in older orthodontic patients.

result: when we get even older, & our jawbones shrink along with all our other bones, & we already have shallow roots....we're more likely to lose teeth.

This girl's mother doesn't even make sense;
maybe she' jealous of her daughter or maybe she's contrarian with her ex, but her refusal doesn't make sense & her "reasons" are rationalizations.

When my mother grew up, her family didn't have a car.

When I grew up, I didn't take dance (not available) or sports (girls just didn't) or try out for cheerleader (I was painfully shy & totally klutzy).

so should I not have a car?

should girls today not dance or play soccer or act silly at football games?

& crooked teeth have nothing to do with physical or human character, they're just crooked teeth.

I suppose this woman thinks a broken window lends character to her home?
A dent gives her car its unique character?

Sorry, I seem to have strayed from the question;

Parents (or spouses or anybody) withholding needed help & saying, in effect, "it's for your own good" is a big soapbox subject for me.

I don't know the answer;
If her mother won't agree, her father undoubtedly needs to talk to an attorney, & maybe a child advocate if there is such a thing in a situation like yours.

but if there's a way to get her braces, I say go for it.

Maybe your DH could ask teh dentist to talk to the mom, and emphasize the health issues?

Has DH spokent to the stepdaughter?

Yes to all the above. It is a health issue that gets worse with age. Teeth not tended to can cause heart disease, blood poisoning, headaches and a bunch more.

You will get the short answer from me. This mother is either uninformed or way off base or both.

it was much more difficult for me than it would have been had my mother permitted it when I was in school (my mother was a narcissist among other things).

Those of you who understand NPD Â this confuses me. I do believe my sdÂs mom suffers from NPD. Yet I canÂt puzzle how this situation fits with that belief. WouldnÂt an NPD want her child to be "perfect" to reflect well on her???

Has DH spoken to the stepdaughter?

Yes. She doesnÂt want braces  but what kid does? She needs them and it would be easier now than later. I think she is simply too young to appreciate that right now. Also, sd plays the trumpet in the high school band and is worried about how it will affect her there. She is 5th chair (meaning she is far from dedicated to this activity) and although I have not researched it  I have to believe it is still possible to play wind instruments when wearing braces.

Teeth not tended to can cause heart disease, blood poisoning, headaches and a bunch more.

Can anyone point me to info on the net to support this? Perhaps if DH was armed with solid facts it would help. DH is on the fence about fighting this. SD doesnÂt want braces and her mother doesnÂt either. I think he should fight it. SD is a beautiful girl with overlapping front teeth one notices right away when she smiles. Braces are not just for cosmetics but they do have that benefit as well. Her dad can afford to give her a beautiful, healthy smile that I bet she will one day appreciate. He just really hates going against his NPD exÂ

I wanted to clarify what I mean when I said sd doesnÂt want bracesÂ

IMO - ItÂs pretty much what you would expect from a 14 y.o. ItÂs not "IÂll HATE it! IÂll HATE you!" Â Nothing like that. More like "but I donÂt want to go to bed right now - even though itÂs a school night". :-)

Also  something IÂve learned about sd in the 3 years IÂve known her When there is something she wants and doesnÂt think she can have (for what ever reason)  she will "say" she doesnÂt want it. Probably call it "stupid" too. :-) She knows her mom "forbids" the braces. Most of her friends and peers have braces right now  I believe that would help a lot and I would like to take advantage of that - - for her.

I think being 5th chair at 14 is still pretty good. I dont disagree with you on braces, but I think most parents would be happy with band.

I think DH should talk to SD again, emphasize that it is usually better to have braces when everyone esle does.

Decaying teeth can cause lots of health problems. I have never heard that having "crooked" teeth would have anything to do with infection.

The important thing is whether the bite is abnormal. Sometimes braces are purely for cosmetic reasons, and there is no problem with the bite.

Although I don't think "building character" is a good reason not to get braces, there are many cases where the necessity for braces is questionable. A second opinion never hurts. One of my kids was seen by two ortodontists, one of whom said that braces were not really necessary, but if she did have them, he would put them only on the top and do A, B, and C. The other orthodontist suggested a COMPLETELY different plan, involving upper and lower teeth. The two orthodontists completely disagreed on what, if anything, was wrong and what should be fixed.

I had braces as a child because of a single tooth in the wrong place and it completely ruined my bite - it is a long story but I wish I had never had them. The dentist should have just removed the tooth. I understand that my parents thought they were doing the right thing, but I will never forget the excruciating pain every time I went to the orthodontist, and it was all for nothing. I am fairly pain tolerant - I gave birth six times without any drugs, to pretty large babies, and I recently had a crown done without novacaine - but my two years of orthodontic work were absolute agony.

After my experiences and those of my kids, I would recommend getting an absolute minimum of 3 opinions - as well as opinions from dentists who do not have orthodontists working in their office.

Narcissists have to be the star of every show.

For them, other people exist only as backdrops, scenery in the drama that is their lives, & they're particularly brutal to daughters because of the sexual jealousy aspect.

The narcissist *has* to be the queen bee, the femme fatale in the cast of her show, & she'll sabotage anyone who threatens her position as such.

Someone here put it well, something like, to a narcissist, you are what you can do for her.

If you aren't doing something for her, you're just in the way at best & an impediment to be destroyed at worst.

Example of narcissism:

There was a post about a distraught & depressed teen-aged boy who was hospitalized after he cut himself.

His dad called the ex, the son's mom, to tell her that their son was being released from the hospital.

Her response: "I'm just not ready to have him here at home right now."

The stepmother was incredulous to say the least.

but this is the way the narcissistic mind works.

Her son was not reflecting glory on her, indeed he was deflecting the spotlight off her wonderfulness, his behavior might even raise questions about her devotion as a mother...
& she was having a better time without him.

Another example (I think):

Michael Jackson is very enchanted with his own image of himself, with the *idea* of having a lot of children all adoring him, with the *idea* of himself playing the role of father.

You remember Michael Jackson:
he's the one who dangled a baby over a balcony.

no concept of the baby as a person (or even as a sentient being-what normal person would hold a puppy over a balcony?), just the image of himself as the star playing the role of father.

Maybe a more to-the-point example (I've told this here before, sorry if I sound like one of those people who tell the same story all the time, but this is just such a classic!):

My bridal shower was given in the late afternoon as a "come as you are after work" affair by my dear aunts.

My mother appeared in a white crepe after-five pantsuit, wearing an orchid corsage.

Everybody took her picture, & she basked in the limelight.

Needless to say, I was the poor Cinderella-mouse in my grocery-store work pants & plain blouse.

I was so worried that she'd show up at my wedding in that pantsuit (she had worn a white evening gown to her sister's wedding 20 years before), that I asked one of my aunts to talk to her about it.

A narcissistic mother might dress her baby in adorable outfits, since the mother would bask in the glow of approving observers & since the attention that the baby got would be incidental, *but she would never voluntarily agree to anything that would make a teen-aged daughter more attractive*.

Kkny  We are thrilled with her involvement with her music and the various bands at school. We do support that 1000% percent  in every way possible. I mentioned 5th chair because if she were dedicated, she would practice a lot more than she does. We donÂt push her in this area because we want it to be all hers. As I said  we totally support (go to every Friday night game to watch half-time, go to every weekend competition, attend all festivals, pay what ever cost is required), but we do not push. However, since she is not giving her music more than she does, I see little reason why that should prevent braces. Since this was an argument given against braces, I needed to address it. I still need to research this. There must be some hard evidence to show that braces will not prevent a student trumpet player from playing.

TheOtherSide  I completely agree with getting more than one opinion. IÂm just not sure of the best way to proceed. SdÂs dentist has already said that he thinks braces are necessary and BM is aware of this. Does DH take sd to appts for opinions even though BM has "forbidden" braces??? Or do we talk to a lawyer first. DH still needs to decide if he is going to fight this one. I think he should.

SylviaTexas  That all makes sense. I suppose your last line is most applicable in this case and the reason I couldnÂt understand it: but she would never voluntarily agree to anything that would make a teen-aged daughter more attractive NPD people are highly self disciplined and motivated. SdÂs mom is no exception. She spends a lot of time (and money) on her body and appearance. I have to give credit where credit is due There is not one ounce of fat on that woman and she spares no expense with the clothes she wears. I hate the fact that her taste in clothes is my taste! If I could afford it that is Of course, I would never admit this to anyone but you guys. :-)

try

www.braceguard.com

LOL! Thanks kkny! :-D

Regarding the NPD mother --
There's also the implication that by "fixing" the daughter's teeth, that her own 'character' teeth aren't really perfect. So by admitting there's a 'flaw' (that's "the F word" to a narcissist) in the daughter, there's a flaw by extension in the mother.

My own NPD Ex refused to allow treatment for our son's dyslexia because he couldn't allow himself to admit that he had it. HIS son with learning disabilities? Unthinkable

I'd ask your DH to read the fine print on his divorce decree. It may say that either parent has the right to consent to medical treatment, it may allow eiher parent to consent for emergencies, or it might say that the parties need to agree. Or, something entirely different. Once you know exactly what the decree says, you'll have a better idea what your options are.

Would the 'invisible' braces be an option? Could be NPD Mom would allow those because there wouldn't be anything visible to anyone else.

Hi Sweeby!

There's also the implication that by "fixing" the daughter's teeth, that her own 'character' teeth aren't really perfect. So by admitting there's a 'flaw' (that's "the F word" to a narcissist) in the daughter, there's a flaw by extension in the mother.

But everyone can see that her teeth are not straight. This is why I couldnÂt noodle it out. When you see a child with crooked teeth  donÂt you wonder? I expected that she would never want people to "wonder" why she has not taken care of her child adequately. Especially where they live - lots of money. This is why I worried she would demand them back when it would have put a financial strain on us. I never dreamed she would fight it when we are offering to pay!

I'd ask your DH to read the fine print on his divorce decree.

Excellent idea! Now why didnÂt I think of that??? Yes  it may indeed hold the answer. Thanks. :-)

Would the 'invisible' braces be an option?

DH asked about these too  in regards to sdÂs trumpet playing. I really think this would be setting everyone up for a very rough time. Sd is not very good at taking care of herself or her things. She would always find reasons to remove the braces. She would not be diligent about brushing after every meal and replacing the braces. She would likely loose them  she looses everything. I can see nothing but arguments where these are concerned. Better, IMO, to have them in place  non removable  and a non issue. Nothing to argue over :-)

It is harder to brush your teeth effectively with regular braces, so if she is not diligent about brushing her teeth, she could end up with lots of cavities.

Be sure to ask the orthodontist about how long she will have to wear a retainer after the braces come off. Those are really easy to use - I have a friend whose son has lost 3 of them. One of the orthodontists whom we saw for an opinion about my child said that she would have to wear a retainer at night all the time until her wisdom teeth come in (during her early twenties in my family) and at least periodically FOR THE REST OF HER LIFE or her teeth would move back to their original positions. That may vary depending on what is wrong with the teeth to begin with, but I think that a lifetime of retainer wearing is totally unacceptable.

I think that a lifetime of retainer wearing is totally unacceptable.

I had braces when I was little  probably one of the reasons IÂm more "expecting" of this than perhaps DH was without my input (he never had braces either). My bottom teeth did shift as I aged. :-( I totally kick myself for letting this happen - it just happens so slowly that I donÂt think I noticed until it was way offÂ

I just "assumed" that technology of today has improved where this would not happen. I mean  why put kids through this if it isnÂt permanent??? Is the entire population (or most of it) simply sold an expensive bill of goods???

Sounds like some serious research is in orderÂ.

I found this (from wikipedia) interesting:

Typical cost of braces is about $5,000 in the US, but can be much lower in other countries. In India, the cost is usually around $600 to $1,000. In CIS countries for example, the cost is $200 to $500 per jaw.

In some European countries, e.g. Sweden, orthodontic treatment is available without charge to patients under 16 (or for treatment to start at 16, such as Ireland), as benefits for orthodontic treatment are provided under government-run health care systems.

Jeri,

I had braces as a teenager, and now have a terrible bite. I will ask my dentist how this could be.

I had braces as a teenager, and now have a terrible bite. I will ask my dentist how this could be.

Yea I donÂt get this at all ItÂs one thing for teeth to shift, but your bite? Do you still have your wisdom teeth? Did they come in after you had braces??? Mine were pulled, so they never affected my dental work.

No, I dont still have my wisdom teeth.

My teeth shifted within a couple of years after the orthodontist said I could throw away the retainer. My wisdom teeth didn't come in until several years later. The orthodontist offered the option of putting the braces back on, for more money, of course. I said no way. The shifting probably got a bit worse after my wisdom teeth came in, but then stabilized. I still have three of my wisdom teeth, and just had the other one out recently.

I find it strange a judge would sign a dissolution of marriage with joint custody with no primary declared. In our state less than 1% of all cases are done this way to prevent situations just like this.

Really, I think, unfortunately the joint custody with no primary is a trend, especially where Dad has more money and bettter lawyer. It can put him in a better position to minimize costs without having child live with him.

Funny, I remember a few years back BM wanting a 50/50 with no primary declared and the judge told her absolutely not as declaring no one with 'final say' just causes further litigation in the event of an inevitable stalemate.

"It can put him in a better position to minimize costs without having child live with him."

How so?

Allows control without responsiblity

In possible defense of mom, I tend to agree that we should not all just buy in to this notion that everyone with crooked teeth "needs" braces. Yes, if they are bad enough to make it difficult to brush and floss, I can see the point. If it is primarily cosmetic, I really don't see how it's particularly different from a nose job or a boob job; a not-insignificant amount of pain for the purpose of making you physically closer to "perfect" in appearance. You may not agree, but accepting your physical "imperfections" as "having character" rather than "fixing" them is a perfectly legitimate value for a parent to try to impart to their teenage child.

If it matters (judge my motivation as you will), yes I have crooked teeth, braces were financially not an option as a teenager although I really didn't want them anyway, I chose against them as an adult when they became financially an option, and I don't in the slightest regret not having them either time. All things being equal, sure I'd rather have straight teeth, but not badly enough to put myself through two years of braces in order to get them. And since I wouldn't do it to myself, I'd have a hard time justifying doing it to a child in my care who was saying she didn't want them.

Joint physical with primary is different than joint legal  or at least that was my understanding.

Quirk  In this particular situation  I know for a fact that bm has had liposuction and BriteSmile treatments. So itÂs not a matter of her teaching her daughter to like who she isÂ

Hi Jeri -

My SS's teeth WERE hideous, he had one that was so crooked it grew in side ways. I insisted, over DH and BM objections, that he get braces and his teeth are beautiful now. Of course DH & I paid about 4,000 out of pocket for this and will we ever see a penny from BM? No, but I knew that to begin with and I would still do it again...it was in his best interest...

Of course every person is different and maybe your SD teeth aren't as bad as my SS's teeth were. There are some BM on here who will tell you oh well don't worry about it, not your kid and since BP don't care why should you - but you have to do what you think is right and what you can live with - I have made many mistakes as SM but noone can ever accuse me of doing something for my BC that I wouldn't do for my SS.

Thanks mlly  ThatÂs exactly where IÂm coming from. :-)

Here is an update. SD had a minor accident and broke 1/3 of her front tooth off. DH was with her and took her to the Dentist immediately. Luckily, the Dentist was able to do a beautiful bonding job that looks like it never happened. DH asked the Dentist to e-mail the pictures of SDÂs teeth before and after the repair  which the Dentist did promptly. DH saw these pictures and is now convinced that SD needs braces regardless of what BM says. I donÂt know why he couldnÂt just look at his daughter (like I have done) to see this, but after seeing the close up shots of her teeth he is going to make this happen. :-)