Colleen, she didn't say he did it in the sand. She said he did it on the playground. But you are right and most playgrounds these days don't have sand for that very reason. And yes, an animal may urinate and defecate anywhere they please. That's why we have leash laws, and pooper-scooper laws and for humans, we have indecent in public laws. To reduce the chance that unsanitary waste (and private parts) will come in contact with others.

I agree that "shame is one thing...concern over health is another" but don't see the relevance. You said having a pee is ok because clothes can be washed, and I brought up the health concern I have over that attitude. But I don't think Ashley was shaming her son. She was reinforcing that in our society it is not appropriate to do what he did. Were he an adult, he would have been arrested, charged with sexual abuse and branded for life. (In America, anyway) To Ashley, I think (I could be wrong) that the seriousness in this situation was in the choice that was made to pee inappropriately. To her, that is a serious enough offense to warrant discipline. Personally, I can see where she is coming from. I am not in her situation, with full background understanding of how they got to that point, so I don't know if a spanking was warranted or not. But I agree that it sounds like a serious enough infraction to warrant a serious punishment.

I got spanked and it didn't scar me for life. If the girls popped a squat on the playground and took a pee I guarantee you their father would spank them. That is HIS perrogative. Big and little has nothing to do with it. It's consequences he has deamed appropriate for a behavior of HIS children and I would totally support him.

It isn't illegal to "spank". There is a huge difference between spanking and beating. A spank is a consequence and a "strike" is an anger reflex. He never spanks the girls when he is mad...never. They do however, get spanked when they DESERVE it just like I or you would get arrested, written up or fired from a job if we , as adults, deserved it.

Spanking is and should be a parents choice.

I got whipped with a leather strop. Didn't bother me much until of course my little bother got it. THAT really upset me!

And I seriously hope you weren't refering to me as a germ...hahahaha. That also made me laugh.

I'm not trying to bust your balls here. I just think the entire "spankings ruins children" thing is a little over rated. Everyone and I do mean EVERYONE I know got spanked as children and we all turned out fine and we still love our parents.

I think it is personal. If you don't want to spank your kids that's fine. That's your choice. I wouldn't say you are a bad parent for not spanking your child but I think it should go the other way as well.

I can understand it being upsetting. I also think some people go too far. My mom's dad beat her brother and it upset her too. She never cared much for the fact that my dad spanked us so I can understand where you are coming from.

Me and both my siblings turned out fine and we love and respect our dad greatly. He kept us straight growing up and now that I am older I appreciate that he did.

I suppose that may turn out in an intact family. So tell me how did the whippings help you?

Intact or not...it doesn't matter. jonathan's parents were divorced and he got spanked as well.

We are both GLAD that our dads spanked us. I can speak for both of us, one from an intact family and one from a blended family, when I say this. We both feel that when we were little and had not yet grasped concepts (examples: sharing, biting hurts, it's wrong to tell an adult no, playing with fire is dangerous...etc.) that the spankings instilled a sense of right and wrong. You see, my dad could of sat and explained to the three year old me all day long why I shouldn't of kicked the cat but I would of heard the first two words and then it would of been BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH.

I would of learned nothing and went right about my business of kicking cats not realizing or even caring that it was wrong. By getting a pop on the rear for it I got an equal and opposite reaction from my negative behavior. It got my attention. I wouldn't kick the cat again because I would understand it is going to warrant me a pop. As I got older I started to associate the pops with bad choices. In short I begain to understand consequences.

Both of our fathers always explained why we got a spank beofre we got them. You did A. so now you have to get B. They also always told us afterwards that it was all over and they still loved us. It was done for disciplinary purposes and not out of frustration or anger.

We and most others we know who were spanked in this fashion understand the reasoning behind it and we are glad for it. J and I both feel it taught us early to respect rules and expect and more importantly EXCEPT consequences for our own actions.

There are far to many children and ADULTS in this world who get totally pissed if they get called out on their bad behavior. It is far to common in our society to point the finger and shift blame....for this reason I am glad that my dad taught me the meaning of "paying the piper" at a young age.

Colleen, how did the whippings hurt you?

Silver, they left huge red welts and scars on my back, and if I could have screamed out in pain I would have, but that was not allowed. So, I did not! Admission of pain was never permitted. That was an admission of weakness and weakness was not ever allowed.

My father's idea of recreation were fights in the rumpus room, where each of us would tightly wrap up newspapers and hit each other as hard as we could. Paper fights they were called.

Of course as a female I was allowed to NOT participate, but that seemed to me an admission of male dominance which of course I could not admit to.

Your father didn't whip you darlin'. He BEAT you. There is a difference there. No kid likes to get spankings. They smart...that's the point but there should never be welts left behind.

There's the difference in our two experiences with spankings.

Whatever girlfriend. Does that mean I love my father less than you love yours?

Colleen, I'm sorry, that sounds awful, and way beyond what (I think) most parents think is permissible. I also think the vernacular has a lot to do with the intrepretation. You call them "whippings" which is defined by New York Law as WHIPPING, punishment. The infliction of stripes.

2. This mode of punishment, which is still practiced in some of the states, is a relict of barbarism; it has yielded in most of the middle and northern states to the penitentiary system.

3. The punishment of whipping, so far as the same was provided by the laws of the United States, was abolished by the act of congress of February 28, 1839, s. 5. Vide 1 Chit. Cr. Law, 796; Dane's Ab. Index, h. t. www.new-york-lawyer.ws/law-dictionary/wheel.htm

A spanking is "A form of physical punishment in which a beating is applied to the buttocks" http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=define%3Aspanking

I think anyone who had been "beaten" or "whipped" would certainly have an aversion to physical correction of any kind, and I can understand that.

American law, although it varies state by state, generally agrees that discipline including spanking, administered in a reasonable manner, is not abuse. Breaking the skin and causing scars would be child abuse in this country. http://www.familyrightsassociation.com/info/spanking_laws.htm

My question was not so much how did whipping hurt you physically, but in the long run mentally. Spankings hurt. I had bruises and raised hand marks when I was a child from being spanked, but they went away and I don't feel I had any lasting damage, physically or mentally.

No..it doesn't mean you love your father any less but it does explain why you are against spanking in general and I am not.

You had a bad experience with it...I did not.

I was spanked. I had welts one time on my leg (that turned into a bruise) but I never considered it a beating or whipping. I honestly don't think my dad intended to leave marks, he didn't use excessive force, but I also bruise easily. I would never consider the spankings I got as a kid were in any way 'abuse'. The only time I was spanked was when I had done something wrong & I knew I shouldn't have done what I did, but did it anyways. Never got a spanking when I didn't deserve to be punished. Spankings were not common in our house but we knew they were a possibility so I think that had something to do with how I behaved. My recollection is that I could count my spankings on my fingers, not very many. However, my mom never spanked me as a little kid. That was dad's job. But, as a preteen & teen, she would say that we are never to old to spank. She punched my mouth when I was 13 & broke a tooth. I didn't think of that as a spanking, she did it out of anger because I was disrespectful toward her. I was a fresh mouthed teen and told her to shut up or something like that, and pow. It was effective in that I never talked to her like that again, but I would never use that approach with my kids. I do think that was abusive. Dad's spankings were not in anger EVER. I think that makes a big difference in whether it's perceived as abuse or discipline.

I have never spanked my SD but I am not opposed to it, if I felt it was necessary. DH and I have talked about it and we use other methods that seem to work fairly well, but if a situation presented itself, and I can't really think of any offhand, spanking is not off the table. Of course, if SD were to think that there is absolutely no possibility that she could or would ever get spanked my me or DH, she might disobey and test us even more because she knows that. My son did that when he was younger... actually got in my face and said 'whatchya gonna do???' when he didn't want to listen to me. Yeah, I smacked him. Not hard, but enough to get his attention. I told him that if I had to jail for it, fine. But he was not going to bully me or run amok because he is bigger than me. I am 5'2 and he's been taller than me since he was 9 years old. But, then again... spanking wasn't common in my household with my kids, so getting a smack really got his attention. If it had been commonplace, he might have brushed it off and not taken me seriously.

Well, I explained the effects that it had on me. Maybe I was the only "bad" kid here, but it seriously did nothing but make me sneakier and untrusting of my father and SM.

Another issue I see with touching someone without their consent and as a form of punishment is teaching the exact opposite of personal freedom over your own body, something I think is very important for kids (especially girls to understand) at a young age. This is your body, no one elses and its off limits to whoever you say so.

Doodle, I understand that you did not have a bad reaction to spankings. But say that your child did. Like me, I would outbest my parents at every other turn to avoid a spanking. Luckily I learned that lying was not a good thing, but I didn't learn it from my parents.

"Dad's spankings were not in anger EVER. I think that makes a big difference in whether it's perceived as abuse or discipline."

I think this is the key. Whether or not a spanking is actually a beating depends on the reasoning behind it. If the parent is frustrated, embarrassed or angry it is a beating. That parent is punishing that child for causing them emotional grief of some sort. If the parent is calm and simply correcting a negative behavior in the way my father did and J does then it is a spanking. Those parents are merely following through with a disciplinary consequence. There is no emotion involved.

There have been times the girls got away with a behavior what would normally earn them a spank because J was too pissed off to whip them. He instead walked away and had a talk with them a little later. He knows when to spank and when to walk away.

Nivea, what do you think would have been more effective in your situation?

This thread was really interesting, and funny at times lol. The age old debate.
To spank or not to spank?
I think that after a certain age a child is capable of being "reasoned" with and you should be able to talk to them or offer up some other consequence besides physical punishment.
I am not against spaking or swatting. I don't agree with hitting in the face or head etc.

I have never spanked any of my children, nor would I ever. I also was never spanked as a child.

I can , perhaps, understand a swat to a young child, toddler age, or preschool age. I can also understand a slap for something dangerous, ie, if toddler is going to touch stove, slapping her hand may be an appropriate lesson.

What I cannot understand is the use of spanking for a school age child. Children of that age can certainly be reasoned with, and respond very well to other forms of correction. A "swat" will not have the impact on a seven year old that it will on a two year old, so it would, of necessity resort to a full spanking rather than a single swat at that age. In my opinion, its lazy parenting to be spanking school age children.

As for children in the preteen and early teen years, spanking them is, in my opinion, abusive. ALl that is being taught by spanking someone in that age range, is that bigger and stronger wins. It destroys self esteem, teaches fear as a means of controlling behaviour,and ultimately results in angry kids. I think parents who spank kids in that age range have poor parenting skills and underlying anger issues of their own.

In the real world, people arent allowed to hit people. Why would we teach children who are old enough to reason, that its okay for THEM to be hit, but not for others?

Thats a good question Silversword.

I think with my father that he may have had actual reasons for spanking and he never spanked once I started first grade that I could remember. I'm trying to remember an example of what I may have done to get a spanking from him, but all I can come up with is that I probably kept on doing something when he said stop repeatedly. Nothing huge, maybe jumping on a couch. My father NEVER did time outs or actual talking to me about misbehavior and I'm sure that if he did it would've been a lot more effective with me and have strengthened our relationship.

Examples of my SM hitting or kicking or choking me were all over the place, from not wanting to wash my brother, to her "perceiving" I rolled my eyes at her, not answering a question fast enough...you get the point. I basically thought her reasons for "disciplining" me were hogwash. So, I mainly lost a lot of respect for her and no matter what she said really had no bearing on me.

And I wasn't a BAD younger kid. Very active and high energy, but wanted to connect with everyone and had a high need for anyone and everyone to like me. You could easily connect with me by talking. But by the time I was a teenager I really no longer cared what was coming out of her mouth or my fathers. Lost all respect and knew I was going to be in trouble for whatever at that point. No use in even trying.

In children too young to reason, at times when an immediate, attention getting reaction is neccessary, I have spanked all three kids - 2 bio and 1 step. I have never pulled one on to my lap and given them a 'good one' - just a swift, firm hand to the butt with a brief explaination as to why. I have also (lightly) bitten both boys when they bit another person while explaining biting was painful and I would show them what I meant. Just once - lessoned learned.

My brother and I were both spanked as kids - didn't phase me in the slightest, and didn't make me a child beater.

"There are far to many children and ADULTS in this world who get totally pissed if they get called out on their bad behavior. It is far to common in our society to point the finger and shift blame...."

Couldn't agree more, Doodle. There are too many people in this world that don't understand there are consequences for bad actions.

This has been debated time and time again on this site but... I think spanking is okay but to an extent and followed up or preceeded by the appropriate explanations... such as what doodle said.

I personally was spanked as a child. I know that ever single time we went out into public (four kids very close in age) my dad used to say "you better be on your best behavior or your A** is grass and I am the lawn mower" My siblings and I joke to this day we werent entirely sure what that meant but we sure were not going to test it. The very last 'spanking' I ever received was probably about 10ish probably a little younger....but we had come up with a game in our brothers room to see if we could go around the entire room without touching the ground ie:bounce from the bed to the dresser to the toy box back to the dresser etc ... in other words not the safest game in the world.... and lo and behold my youngest brother fell and busted his lip... my parents were livid and we all felt the sting of a sound spanking. But, I can gaurantee we never ever did anything like that again.

For myself, I have a hard time spanking. I do it when necessary but all in all spanking from me is few and very far between... (maybe once between all the kids) My Dh is very different. He was raised where violence was common place and not used as a disciplinary measure. He had a crappy childhood imo... and he was abused. There may have been a reason behind the corporal punishment but it was lost in anger and excessive force (Punching your child in the face... NEVER okay) As a result it is difficult for him to think of or even consider different ways of discipline especially where his boys are concerned. I recently vetoed spanking the oldest (11 yrs) I think he is plenty old enough to suffer other punishments that would get the point across more. And, dont misunderstand me my DH is the most loving thoughtful caring parent and father I have probably ever met... it is just what he knows.

I think the important thing that distingushes (sp) the difference between spankings (my childhood) and abuse (my Dh's childhood) is the degree of the physical punishment and the thought, follow up, and concern of the parent involved in the act. There is a world of difference. My parents didnt want me to get hurt and had to make a defining point... his dad wanted him to submit and wanted control and dominance... very different things.

Abuse follows you through life and effects every aspect of it... a spanking from a concerned parent does not.

Hi Nivea,
Sounds like your SM was abusive and that was the issue rather than the actual spankings (choking is never ok). If she were just verbally abusive it seems the end result would be the same...you "tuning out" to the punishment. I think momof4 said it well...

"There is a world of difference. My parents didnt want me to get hurt and had to make a defining point... his dad wanted him to submit and wanted control and dominance... very different things...

Abuse follows you through life and effects every aspect of it... a spanking from a concerned parent does not."

"Another issue I see with touching someone without their consent and as a form of punishment is teaching the exact opposite of personal freedom over your own body, something I think is very important for kids (especially girls to understand) at a young age. This is your body, no one elses and its off limits to whoever you say so."

I disagree with this statement in the context of this conversation (so no one give me a bunch of BS about child-molestation; I'm only speaking in context of this thread about spanking). There is a reason why children are considered "minors" until age 18 or 21. That's because they are not considered to have good judgement. So, no, minors don't have freedom over their body. ANYTHING my child says or does before the age of 18, I am accountable for. If he knocks some girl up, I'm accountable to get an attorney and go to court for statutory rape. He can't get a tattoo or body piercing without my consent. He can have freedom over his body when HE is responsible for his own actions.

Colleen - your father was abusive to you. Your aversion to spanking is understandable. But, by the same token, it's not like I was whipping him with a leather strap or even closing my eyes and swing my arms around wildly just to hit him. And I don't need anyone's acceptance on this board for the reason I did what I did. I know I did not "abuse" him and I know he got the picture pretty clearly.

honestly when people say that there are no consequences of being spanked and being humiliated (yes it is humilation) they are just fooling themselves. so many subsequent choices in life very possibly are consequences of being messed up by parents. making some really poor choices later in life might be due to poor parenting. yes spanking is poor parenting.

there might be soime harm in peeing in front of other children but there is as much harm in spanking a child. two wrongs don't make it right.

I totally disagree with people that say that while kids are minors, they do not deserve privacy and they do not have any control over their own lives or bodies. I think that is horrible parenting, and I think people that live by that rule run into huge problems with teenagers.

Its so easy to parent a six year old. Tell them what to do and they do it, or you can give them a time out. But if you dont build the relationship the right way as a six year old, you have a much harder time keeping it on track when they are teens. A parent who controls behaviour by spankings , if they dont shift into a different mode of discipline during the elementary years, is going to have absolutely no respect with a teen.

BTW, all three of my foster kids came to me as teens, from homes where the parents believed very strongly in spanking. The parents never learned that you cant have rules without relationship.

Maybe thats why some steps have such trouble. They came into it too late to establish that relationship at six, so they are suddenly thrust into it with a teen or preteen and they dont have a history to back them up. Even if they have kids who have lived through that age already, they dont have shared time together from an early age to ease the situation, and the way they try to run things may not be the way the kid is used to.

Having a stepfamily isnt easy. It has its easy moments, but its so important to realize that these stepkids are PEOPLE. They arent ours, but they are part of our lives , and they are part of the person that we pledged ourselves to. THey deserve respect. You cannot convince me that hitting a child over a certain age, shows respect for anyone. Its just a way of an angry parent showing his or her frustration.

so you were kicking cats and your parents kicked you to show that kicking is wrong? huh???

kicking cats is cruelty. children who abuse animals lack compassion. there are ways to teach compassion. how is physical action against you teaches that physical action against a cat is wrong? how spanking could teach compassion?

so kicking a cat is wrong but kicking a child (their own child) is OK?

Could it be that you were kicking cats because you got used to being spanked and inflicting phsycial pain on others (even a very mild one) wasn't a big deal for you? I undersand you have no control over your parents but you seem to endorse it!

this is just something else. you were talking about lisence to bread before. hmmm

"Another issue I see with touching someone without their consent and as a form of punishment is teaching the exact opposite of personal freedom over your own body, something I think is very important for kids (especially girls to understand) at a young age. This is your body, no one elses and its off limits to whoever you say so. "

excellent excellent words nivea, especially about girls respecting their bodies. just great.

FD, I agree with Niveas words and yours. Spanking is negative and doesnt accomplish anything positve.

Silversword, I disagree. My SM was not my parent and even if it was just spankings it wouldn't make a difference, I didn't want her touching me ever. Even with they first got married I resented being pushed into hugging and kissing her. Part of my nature, I do not like just randomly touching people. And legally it was not abuse, left no bruises. I don't bruise easily.

Ashley, I disagree quite strongly. Children are not property, they are children.

I have to disagree that being spanked a time or two as scarred me for life. I am EXTREMELY close to my parents, respect them 100% and love them to pieces. I am very successful and my step dad (dad to me) tells me often how proud he is of the person I became. There are many 'odd' things about my childhood - my mom was single until I was 10 - but I have yet to find any that have done me any damage. I'm certainly not perfect - I work too hard, volunteer too much and sleep too little just like my mom - but if that's the extent of my 'messed-upness' from my parents who occasionally spanked me I can deal with it.
In fact, I think I might call and thank them for it.

Nivea - You said:
"Ashley, I disagree quite strongly. Children are not property, they are children."

I never said they are "property". What I said was that they are MINORS for a reason. And I didn't say he couldn't touch is own penis. What I said was that he was punished for peeing on a playground. He has personal freedom to touch his own penis. But what he did was violated other people's rights. If he is doing something inappropriate with HIS OWN penis, it violates other people's rights. There has to be a line drawn. It's like the old saying "Where does my right to swing my fist stop at your right to not be hit?" So are you going to tell me that a man playing with himself in his own home and someone else sees it doesn't deserve punishment because of "personal freedom"?

So give me a break on the high-and-mighty crap. Your homes may be perfect and you may have the perfect kids. But most people don't live in Stepford with KKNY. Most people live in the real world where bad things happen to good people. And where good kids get messed up with bad kids and go down the wrong path. As long as I'm responsible for the actions of a MINOR, they do not have personal freedom over their bodies. And to say they do is bullsh*t.

Are you gonna tell your daughters they have personal freedom over their bodies so THEY can choose who they give permission to mess with their bodies? Guess what???? YOU are responsible for what happens to that body, no matter what fantasy world you live in. Sorry........but it's true. And if you think that if your daughter gets knocked up or your son knocks someone up before they are 18 and you won't be responsible, you have a seriously rude awakening!

Kathline - I resent your comment about "privacy". I said in my pervious post that I was only speaking in the cojntext of this thread and here you go bringing up other threads.....again. And then to insinuate that I am a "horrible" parent! You don't know sh*t about me! So keep your opinions about my parenting to yourself! I have not EVER insulted someone's parenting on this board and I deserve the same respect.

I am done..............with this board and all the holier-than-though people on it.

Ashley, I'm not telling you that you are a bad parent. I am disagreeing with your view on this subject.

ashley I disagree wiht physical punishment as a form of parenting but I do not think you are a bad parent. as about our own kids, mine is very far from perfect. I just think it is possible to raise children without abusing them. it is very hard, and at times it is tempting to exercise power over them...

Finedreams, "it is very hard, and at times it is tempting to exercise power over them..."

I exercise power over my child every day. Yes, you must brush your teeth. No, you may not stay home from school. No, you may not eat candy before dinner. I don't know if it is so much tempting as it is necessary. I control nearly every aspect of her life. What time she wakes up, what she can choose between for her meals (small, controlled choices), what school she goes to, what activities she may choose between (again, controlled choice between options I have selected), when she goes to bed, what books she may read, which websites she may visit. It is our job to maintain control over our children. Childhood is not a democracy. What if a child is screaming and throwing a full out tantrum in the grocery store? Do you pick them up or do you try to reason with them? I'll bet just about everyone here has picked up their child and removed them from a situation where they are behaving innappropriately. Is that bad? Because we have touched them, moved their bodies without their consent?

"I just think it is possible to raise children without abusing them"

I agree. But spanking is not defined as abuse. I understand that you consider it to be abuse and I can understand where you are coming from, but it's not abusive when used sparingly to correct behavior. Anymore than yelling, taking their toys away, sitting them in the corner is abuse. I honestly think my mother making me give my things away to other people was more abusive psycologically and had more of an impact on who I am today than the few times she spanked me. Honestly, I deserved every spanking I got. I never did those things again, and they were bad enough to warrant a wake up call.

I hardly think that Ashley is abusive towards her child, based on her postings. You said that spanking is "poor parenting". To say that you think that spanking is abuse and that even though Ashley "abuses" her son (under your definition of the word)you do not think she is a bad parent is very contradictory.

I can see how she would be upset. I don't think it was appropriate at all for her son to pee on the playground. If that were my son I would be correcting that behavior very quick. What he did was not an accident, it was on-purpose. In this day and age he could very well have been arrested and charged with sexual abuse and been sent to juvenile detention. Boys have gone for less infraction than showing a penis, they have been suspended for simply kissing a girl. I think in a rural environment taking a pee against a tree is just fine. But there is a time and a place for everything. Were he a toddler, I doubt she would have spanked him.

Ashley, are you really stressed out or something?

I didnt say you were a horrible parent. I said that denying privacy to anyone under 18, and hitting older children is horrible parenting. YOu have said in other posts that you do not snoop on your DS, and I doubt you hit your SD. So why do you see yourself in my post?

People here are at all different stages of parenting. I have successfully gotten 6 kids through adolesence into adulthood. I have three left, one DS and two steps, all in the preteen or teen years. I know about teens and what works, and doesnt work with them. Do I know everything? hell no. Every child, and every teen is a product of the influences around them. We cant control the other influences in our kids lives. SOmetimes kids from good parents turn out to be not so good. Sometimes kids from bad parents turn out great. BUt there are some things that definitely do help along the way.

I think its ALWAYS a mistake to punish a child for anything related to private parts on his or her body. There are better ways to handle that.

I can totally see how someone who swats a three year old on the arse for touching the stove, is not damaging them for life. Its not what I would do, but its not damaging. Once the kids get into school age, it causes more damage. By the time they are tweens, its horrible parenting, imo. Why should that bother you?

Also, an awful lot of young kids I see getting smacked, are in situations like the grocery store, where mom or dad is frustrated as hell and angry as a hornet. I dont think thats the best way to handle it either, but I dont think its permanently damaging at a young age.

I challenge someone to explain to me, firstly, how they would go about spanking a ten year old? One single slap on the behind isnt going to do anything to that age group, so it would of necessity become a spanking. There isnt a woman I know who could swat with their hand hard enough to get the attention of a ten year old, so does it become a dad thing? or a strap?

Secondly, someone explain to me, how they can justify spanking a , say 12 year old, when if that 12 year old were to turn around and hit someone else, that 12 year old would be, at best suspended from school. At worst, the police could be involved. And how do you hit a 12 year old? a slap on the face for a teen daughter? I have heard of it happening. If I saw it, I would call the police.

It is highly illogical to tell a school age child not to hit other people, and then hit them yourself because "they deserved it". Parenting older children by fear DOES NOT WORK. It may temporarily stop the behaviour, but kids, tweens and up, can pick up on hypocrisy faster than pigeons pick up bread crumbs.

THe best way to teach a preteen and teen is by modelling the behaviour you wish them to emulate, and to be fair and reasonable with them. Build trust, and build the relationship. I know, its hard, especially in a stepfamily. We cant always stop or moderate the message that our kids or stepkids are getting from their other family. But we certainly can do the right thing ourselves

YOu are correct. I dont know you. Its impossible to get a total picture of things from a few words on the message board. But what I think shouldnt bother you anyway. I am not a part of your life. Some of the things you do, I dont think highly of, but who the hell cares? Its not my children involved. You can raise your kids as you see fit. Just dont expect me to agree with what you do.

Kathline, I think this is why Ashley feels your post relates to her:

Posted by ashley1979 (My Page) on Mon, Nov 10, 08 at 18:14
"There is a reason why children are considered "minors" until age 18 or 21. That's because they are not considered to have good judgement. So, no, minors don't have freedom over their body."

ÂPosted by kathline (My Page) on Mon, Nov 10, 08 at 18:55
"I totally disagree with people that say that while kids are minors, they do not deserve privacy and they do not have any control over their own lives or bodies. I think that is horrible parentingÂ"

"I challenge someone to explain to me, firstly, how they would go about spanking a ten year old? One single slap on the behind isnt going to do anything to that age group, so it would of necessity become a spanking. There isnt a woman I know who could swat with their hand hard enough to get the attention of a ten year old, so does it become a dad thing? or a strap?"

A__ is 9, not 10.
But a swat DOES get his attention.
His brain doesn't always interpret what's happening from sounds or sights, but touch has more effect on his actions.

So, for example, he is not supposed to crouch on the furniture. You can tell him 20 times in 20 minutes "Sit on your bum, please - not your feet" or "Don't crouch on the couch. That is not treating the furniture properly" and it means nothing. He will go to his bum, but be back up on his feet less than a minute later.
But if you tap his toes - I don't mean hit, I mean tap like you might swat a toddlers hand away from something they aren't supposed to touch - he "listens" to that. He'll sit on his bum for a solid 10 minutes. Poking his feet, or pressing on his toes also works.

If he should be sitting in his seat (such as at a sporting event or a restaurant) but isn't, you can tell him to sit until you are blue in the face, and he will keep standing back up... He just doesn't process the words.
But if you hold him by the hands, hips or shoulders and physically put him in his seat, he stays there. I don't mean shove or yank, just physically put.

One day this summer, A__ was being awful to the cats (poking, teasing, waking them up, tickling their ears, etc) and had been sent his room twice. We had talked about how to treat them, the consequences of the cat not liking you, etc etc... And he continued bugging them.
So FDH swatted his hand away (hard enough to make a sound, but not hard enough to leave a red mark) from the cat the next time. It hurt his feelings, he cried, and he was nice to the poor cats for quite awhile.
This was not spanking as punishment, it was swat to get his attention. He smartened right up after a little swat.

So it doesn't have to be hard smacks, just light contact gets A__'s attention.
If you want him to listen to what you are saying, you have to touch him while you are speaking to him. Just taking his hand, or placing your hand on his knee, makes a world of difference.

So, yes, a light swat can get an older child's attention. Maybe not all children, but it can be effective to get some children to take notice of a situation.

I am sure Ashley saw herself in that, even though there are others that it would also apply to.

Something can be an example of horrible parenting, without the person in question being a horrible parent. In Ashleys case, I believe she has stated in previous posts that she does respect the privacy of her son and he is still within the age range where I wouldnt get too bent about spanking, even though I think he is getting older and it should end...soon. I dont think she is a horrible parent. I do think she is a pretty black and white person who has not yet had to cope with a teen...half child and half adult.

As for her SD, well, its not really her SD. She claims that the girl is sneaky, and its the BMs fault. But her boyfriend snoops in SD things as well, so both BIo mom and Biodad give no privacy to the girl. Is it horribly surprising that the girl does not respect their privacy?

Kids really do learn what they live, and if you want them to act a certain way, model that behaviour. Its not a case of do as I say, not as I do. If the other part of the stepfamily doesnt back you up, there is nothing you can do about that, and yes, it can cause problems. But you certainly can do the right thing in your own family.

Ironically I have never kicked a cat. I was just using that as a typical example as to something a child might do. I was taught compassion or I wouldn't work the job I work or be raising two children who arn't my own I assure you of that. If you had even an ounce of compassion(or common sense)yourself youd see that also.

It taught me consequences. I stand by that. I learned for every wrong action you commit there will be a punishment and it won't be pleasant. That's reality hon. If you screw up and step out of line you get dealt with. The earlier you can teach children this the sooner they will learn to take accountability. I didn't hear the psycho babble my mom threw at me as a child but boy I knew when my dad was making a point.

Accountability is something too many kids and adults are not taught. I think this is rather obvious by all the posts from Ex's refusing to take any credit in failed marriages and adult children who make repeat bad moves and expects to just mooch off of the parents instead of face the music. I was raised to buck up and handle business. I see nothing wrong in that. The world is ONE LESS cry baby as a result.

I say THANK YOU DADDY!

As far as the License to breed comment....get over it. I feel how I feel and I still feel some peole shouldn't be alloweed to "ruin" innocent children just because they can squirt them out like a Pez dispenser. You are a bleeding heart and bleeding hearts and I don't see eye to eye. So at this point I agree to disagree and I'm finished with this conversation. Have a great Thanksgiving.....I'm going to go kick a cat now. LOL.

"Have a great Thanksgiving.....I'm going to go kick a cat now."

Hahahaha! Doodle, thanks for the laugh. I'm still laughing a bit over that...

Ironically, I took your 'kick the cat' comment for the idiom 'kick the cat', which goes like this...

Jim is mad because the morning traffic has caused him to be very late to work. Shortly after getting to work he starts yelling at his assistant about a report he needs. Alice, the assistant, calls the manager who has not turned the report in on time. In a very forceful manner, Alice tells the manager to get the report over to her immediately. Jack, the manager, is very upset but complies. Jack is still mad when he walks into his house after work. Unfortunately, the unsuspecting cat walks by the front door just as Jack walks in. Kick! * The cat did not do anything wrong, but he took the brunt of the bad day that was passed on from Jim to Alice to Jack and, finally, to the cat.

I never thought you kicked cats!! But I also took your "license to breed" with a grain of salt. I think we've all thought something similar at one point or another. I was just saying (half tongue-in-cheek) to my dh that there should be a test people have to take before being allowed to vote (because of the idiotic emails I have been receiving).

Ashley said:
"I am accountable for. If he knocks some girl up, I'm accountable to get an attorney and go to court for statutory rape. He can't get a tattoo or body piercing without my consent. He can have freedom over his body when HE is responsible for his own actions."

That is so true. Children DON'T have freedom over their own bodies until they are 18 and parent's do have responsibility for them until they are 18. When you have a promiscuous girl that is 16 or 17 and sleeping around, the first question asked is "where are her parents!?!", "How can they allow this?". What would happen if the parents said, "well, it's HER body, she can do what she wants with it." Does that mean if she wants to be a stripper, she can? (besides the laws requiring her to be 18)

In my state, there was talk about a law to hold the parents responsible if their minor son impregnates a girl to make the parents support the baby until he is 18 and can legally be held responsible. Not sure if it actually became law, but the State was frustrated with the teen pregnancy rate & most of the teen girls end up on assistance as single parents while the minor fathers cannot be held responsible to pay support until they are 18.

Whether spanking is right or wrong, it's a stupid debate! Of course those that think they are perfect and have perfect children would NEVER even think of spanking... why would they need to? They have perfect children because they are perfect parents... but then what are they doing on a forum like this??? Hmmm. Oh yeah, they are so perfect, they are here to share their perfect advice and their perfect wisdom so we all can be as perfect as they are.... Perfect!

Spanking is a subjective issue since we all have our own interpretation of what spanking is. My sister will tell you she was beaten. All I remember is her running away if she thought she deserved a swat and crying so in my memory bank, she was NEVER caught, let alone spanked. I was spanked a few times, once or twice the belt left welts & turned to a bruise, but I would disagree with anyone that considered it abuse. By today's standards, it probably was abuse. But, I knew I had done something wrong, I had ignored my parents repeatedly and as a final resort, dad got his point across & I learned from it. I have to agree with doodle... THANK YOU DADDY!!! My dad taught me to take personal responsibility which is lacking in today's society.

My daughter went to court about a month ago because we were stopped at a stoplight & a lady slammed into the back of our car. There is no question that it was her fault and her attempt to get out of paying anything to my daughter was to deny my daughter was in the car. She claimed, despite the medical records that showed my daughter went to the doctor right away, that we concocted this story a year later when I didn't get much money from them. Basically, I got just enough to pay my medical bills. It would have been really nice to hear her say "sorry I hit you, are you okay?" We were suing her to pay my daughter's medical bills. There just isn't much personal responsibility anymore.

of course 16 or 17 year old girl needs to be taught to respect her own body, so she does not sleep around. I am not sure how one can teach respecting their body by spanking. in fact it teaches the opposite. like their body has little value.

and certainly personal responsibility needs to be taught, but how do you teach that by spanking? i just do not know.
i am glad nobody kicks the cat LOL but I still think that teaching kids not hitting animals by spanking just is not productive.

doodle my comment was that if you insist on lisence to breed, I would not want people to have children if they spank them. I would not have a law like that but it is tempting.

ceph your FSS has ADHD, maybe that's why he cannot sit still not because he is not listening to you?

haha DD was always a pretty big girl, she is skinny now but she was not this way, plus she was taller than me at age 11 and she had the same weight as me. i cannot imagine spanking such a big girl.

and yes don't be surprised if some big 10 year old turns around and smacks you back. lol that would be funny.

"ceph your FSS has ADHD, maybe that's why he cannot sit still not because he is not listening to you?"

Exactly - that was my point.
Words don't seem to make it to his brain enough to affect his actions... Touching usually does.
Kathline said she didn't know a woman who could hit hard enough to get a 10yo's attention, so I was pointing out that a physical interaction, be it putting a hand on his knee while giving him an instruction, or swatting his hand for repeatedly pestering the cats, gets this particular 9yo's attention quite well.

Ceph, that's an interesting outlook on it. Physical interaction, rather than spanking. I "physically interact" with my daughter a lot. Grab her in parking lots, stick out my arm to stop her (my arm works faster than my mouth a lot of times!) and other non painful but very abrupt motions.

If spanking is done correctly,it should NOT hurt at all...but simply shock the child and get their attention.I have "swatted" my child before,mainly in the toddler years when just saying No a hundred times was not enough to stop them from further injury like jumping off a chair,or when they decided to torment the dog and bite his tail.

Now older,I find using logic works much better and I dont have to swat.I certainly dont begrudge any parent who does it either.
Spanking/swatting on the rear end once or twice or tapping the hand is NOT abuse.Smacking in face and/or leaving marks IS abusive...in my opinion.

According to super nanny, a highly recommended method of directing kids is to put hands on their shoulders and guide them gently. It is also an excellent idea to put a hand on a kids shoulder, or knee, or head, to get him to focus on you. This works for adults too, btw.

Touching isnt the same as spanking or slapping. Spanking and slapping is parenting by fear and humiliation, and that simply does not work long term.

No, its not abuse to spank. As I have said before, for a younger kid who is going to do something dangerous, its even understandable. But it is poor parenting for older children and its emotionally abusive to teens. It indicates a parent who has no control over his or herself, and bad parenting skills, in that age group.

Yes I agree with you there.In fact,anyone who smacked an older child might get smacked back,lol.My mom tried to whoop me with a belt when I was 13 over something silly and left welts on my legs.I grabbed the belt from her and hit her back and asked her how she liked it.