Reading this post these were my first thoughts.

When I first married my SC's father they were upset .... this was their thinking:

You shouldn't get married because if you and daddy divorce we have to go to 3 homes ... daddy's mommy's and yours.

I believe that when step parents become involved in the children's lives, because of their own sense of entitlement to life as they need it to be, and the unavoidable need for the other attachment, of new hus or wife, to compromise in their roles of attachment as they always knew it.

This is met with fear, this is met with resistance, because it seems unfair for the ones who were present much longer to have to change for a new one, who is rarely welcome by all attachments.

Things sometimes begin to go downhill, when the new step reacts badly to this often inevitable first response to their presence, and sometimes the situation could really snowball from there.

Things could go badly if the enitial attachments just make up their minds that no matter what the new step will never be welcome.

sometimes there is respect for the longer attached attachments, and even though the welcome of the new step is less than warm, the presence of respect relieves the burden of fear and allows things to run smoothly alot quicker. But this takes wisdom and the step picking their battles and drawing boundary lines carefully, as well as the existing attachments being willing to be inclusive and get to know the new step.

But i disagree with the part about all love being considered the same way, to really good bio parents who are devoted to their children and continue to want the best for their kids after divorce, a step can never love their kids like they do.

This brings up the subject of natural inclusion. I remember when my dad remaried, there was talk of me and my brother beign included when with bio mom our inclusion was never discussed, our place or space is naturally considered, and always there for us. So to us the new talk of being considered for inclusion in activities was quite condescending.

The same for financial demands, the vacation would not come infront of the kids need for braces or extra classes, to the devoted bio parent, when to the step there is sometimes an expressed sence of being denied for the SKs needs, or even having the kids natural needs in childhood be weighed in the family budget against, new vehicle this year or this vacation or other, when to good bio parent the kids needs come first naturally, this doesn;t have to be considered or weighed.

And I can only speak from my experience, I am not bashing anyone here. Just saying...

Lots of issues about the levels of love, not enough space to post it all.

I'll apologize Aisha for not entirely following your reply to my post.

I actually agree with you that the love a stepparent has for a child differs from that of the child's biological parent. I know my love for my DH's children is different from his love for them. I know the intensity of his love for them is different from mine. I could say the same thing about my sister's children. I love them with all my heart and they love me, too. That said, I know the love I have for them is very different from the love my sister has for them. She gave birth to them. I know the love they have for me is different, less intense. What I was trying to say is those differences do not make the attachments invalid. The attachments are very real.

This was the point in my post. Friends of mine who have children and remain in intact families have times when they want to pull their hair out over the antics of their children. They vent to one another about how exhausting it all is and can be. Sometimes they resent the fact that their kids do not seem to appreciate all the sacrifices made on their behalf. How many of us as adults only begin to appreciate all our parents did for us until we have children of our own? Sometimes in private moments between friends, even biological parents complain about their kids, maybe even resent that their kids do not appreciate all that they do...

If a stepparent complains about their stepchildren because they are feeling unappreciated, they are crucified. If I, as a stepparent, have moments where I want to pull my hair out over the day to day frustrations of trying to raise a family that happens to include children to whom I have no biological or legal attachment, why is it automatically assumed that I do not love or care for those stepchildren?

What I was trying to point out is biological and legal attachments are only two of several dimensions upon which we become joined to one another. Folks are absolutely correct when they point out I have no legal rights when it comes to my DH's granddaughter. I have no biological tie to her. And, when we are in the kitchen together baking cookies or making waffles and she is licking the batter off the spoon and looks over to me and spontaneously says, "I love you, Wrychoice," I challenge anyone who would deny the genuineness of my love for her & hers for me. Because I do love her, with all my heart, and I am committed to supporting DH in anyway I can in helpng him support his child in making a safe and secure life for that little girl. And I do this knowing that the love I have for her is different from that of DH's love for her; different from that of her mother's love for her; different from that of DH's XW's love for her.

And just as valid.

wrychoice , I am sorry that you, being devoted to your family for all of these years, and yes being part of the upbringing of kids that aren't your own, feel invalidated for your own imput and effort in their lives.

It seems hard for me to write this, but this is one of the consequences of being a step parent, especially when both bio parents are present, and active in the lives of their children, grown or not.

They will always seem to 'trump' the step, even if your love is just as real and tangible.

Do you have your own kids?

Are you respected fro your imput, acknowledged?

I mean, do you really need the bio parents to validate you, or even the step kids to validate you, when you obviously know that the love you give is real, and the selfless love of any parent?

Stop looking to external means of validation, be satisfied with what you know of what you have and continue to give, for now anyway.

I hope you regularly receive tokens of appreciation from your family. You are not invalid, but with the bio parents in full action, you may not be considered as equal.

I agree that parents can be frustrated with their children, but I dont get frustated with my DD for lack of appreciation, and I dont think TOS does either. I dont expect appreciation. I may get frustrated with school work not getting done or rooms not getting cleaned, but I dont expect appreciation. I dont think children understand what a parents job is until they are parents.

Aisha,

I wasn't writing so much for my validation per se. It seems to me that many threads on this board result in conflict between BMs & SMs regarding each other's status & contributions to their respective families and the children in those families. The BMs seem to fall back on their biological and legal status complaining that SMs are goldiggers who overstep boundaries; they seem to ignore or willfully refuse to validate the legitimate attachments, the warmth, affection & love that grows and develops between SMs and the children of the man they married. They refuse to acknowledge that at times even BMs may be frustrated with their children and feel unappreciated for the sacrifices they make for the sake of their children.

On the other hand, it seems SMs don't recognize the attachments that exist and remain between BMs and the children to whom they gave birth. Even those mothers who may have abandoned their children. These attachments exist and should be respected.

I was just trying to find some way to present relationships that would allow all of us to have empathy for one another and the ways in which each of our respective experiences may be challenging and painful. I was hoping to offer something that might help us be kind to one another.

TOS and I, two of the most vocal moms here, did a lot more than give birth. We are the primary caregivers, with little time from Dad. I think it is hard to judge how much time SMs spend with children. Every survey I have read says that Dads with full custody are between 5 and 10% of custody situations. Dads frequently have more money, which can make for unfair fights.

I think the need for appreciation is a major difference between even the best stepparent and a biological parent. Over and over on this forum I read complaints by stepparents that the stepchildren don't appreciate them. This is a complaint that I rarely hear from biological parents. Until I read this forum, I rarely if ever even considered the concept. I don't expect my children to be thankful for anything I do for them - not cooking, taking them places, helping them with homework, etc. Sure it is nice when they tell me that dinner was good, but even then it is more because it more that is nice to receive praise for something that at which I do not always succeed (cooking is not my forte), rather than appreciation for the effort involved. It doesn't bother me in the least if they don't thank me for helping them with their math homework or driving them to their lessons. All the thanks I need is for them to grow up to be decent people and to be loving parents to their own children.

"It doesn't bother me in the least if they don't thank me for helping them with their math homework or driving them to their lessons. All the thanks I need is for them to grow up to be decent people and to be loving parents to their own children."

I agree that this is the ultimate reward for the years of effort put in to raising our children. BUT - what is wrong with raising children who appreciate when anyone does something for them? I raise my children to be sensitive to the fact that they are not owed the world on a platter, so when someone gives of themselves to the child's benefit, it is to be appreciated. That doesn't mean I expect them to fall all over themselves when dad or I help them with their homework, but I expect them to recognize that we gave them our time to do so when we could have done something else.

I think to appreciate effort is very important. If your child gives you a home made gift for Christmas, do you not appreciate it even more than a store bought gift because of the effort they put into it?

Of course I appreciate their Christmas gifts, but that has nothing to do with my expectations of them.

"but I expect them to recognize that we gave them our time to do so when we could have done something else."

I don't expect them to appreciate that I gave them my time. I don't expect them to even think about it. There is nothing more important that I could do with my time than spend it with my children. I would hope that they would feel the same way about their children when they have them.

Perhaps the issue is that I believe that children are entitled to far more than merely food and shelter. They are entitled to love, and time, and an education, as well as the opportunity for lessons, vacations, and other opportunities to the best of their parents' financial ability. I don't expect them to appreciate any of that. Sure, they would be appreciative if I took them on a three week Disney vacation, but I believe they are entitled to occasional vacations, and feel bad that I can't afford them. (I overheard a sales clerk complaining about how her ANNUAL Disneyworld vacations with her kids were getting old - that may be a bit over the top.)

I also believe that children are entitled to grow up in an intact biological family.

JNM,

I think the difference is the focus. Yes, everyone wants to raise their children to be polite, gracious etc., but that has to do with the people they are. There is a big, big difference between a parent not feeling appreciated and the person we want the child to be. I live in a great school district, and I have heard conversations between mothers that the child doesnt appreciate the education he/she is receiving. Not that the child doesnt appreciate that parent is making sacrifices to live in this expensive district. I just think the focus is different.

My DH spent many years raising his two children alone while his X was a workaholic, not participating with the family whatsoever. DH was a professor and could arrange his schedule accordingly to be available for his kids.

He did everything for the kids while not expecting anything from them in return except the accomplishment of a few weekly chores when they were teenagers and good school grades.

When the kids were younger, he accompanied them to school functions, lessons, coached soccer for years, planned birthday dinners, cooked for them every night, shopped for them, and took them on annual vacations. They were bought cars to drive. Gas, insurance, and repairs were paid for them. School grades were emphasized and part-time jobs were not required until they became college-age.

His regrets come in the form of realizing that now that these kids are grown and out on their own, DH is not proud of his parenting accomplishments. These young adults do not respect nor care about other people around them, including their father. They have grown into entitled and selfish people.

DH says he erroneously believed that since he is a respectful & mannerly person, he believed the kids would follow his lead and learn from him to be respectful and responsible adults. He did not hold them accountable to himself nor others.

There is something to be said for teaching children that when others do things for them, they need to show their appreciation for that person - whether the person is a bio-parent or a stranger. Otherwise, children (takers by nature) have the potential to remain takers (as adults).

DH says by doing so much for his children and never expecting any appreciation to be shown on their behalf for his efforts, they do not respect him today and he is deeply saddened by this. It certainly was not his intention for this to happen - he thought he was doing his best for them and that he was being a great parent at the time.

I have said all this to say that sometimes we need to expect more from children than they are willing, by nature, to give. In this way, they will have an opportunity to learn how wonderful it is to be a giver rather than a taker - even with parents :))

Apologizing in advance for the length of this post.

Hypothetical scenario:

Two very young adolescents meet. They begin dating. Adolescent, hormonal-driven passion takes over and the young couple (say 15 -16 y/o) has sex. Say this occurred 40 years ago when, for a young girl, giving up her virginity was a significant event (not saying losing one's virginity should not be significant today). So, now the unspoken agreement is the boy, in return for the girl's virginity, is now expected to be responsible for her happiness in perpetuity....only he has not been told this.

So, a couple years pass, and he is set to go off to college. He wants to break off the relationship. He communiciates this to his girlfriend. He has no animosity toward the girl. He is fond of her; he cares about her; and he wants to end the relationship. She threatens suicide. The young man panics. He does not want to feel responsible if she were to hurt herself. So, he backs off; tells her all will be OK. The relationship is on.

A couple more years pass. Once again, the young man tries to end the relationship. This time, he has met someone else he would like to date. Once again, the girl threatens to do harm to herself. She acts on these feelings. Once again, he cares for her; he is fond of her; he does not want to hurt her. And, he does not want to date her anymore. However, he feels responsible; he does not want her to harm herself. They have dated for four years now. They come from a very small town. Their families and friends have taken it for granted that one day this young couple will marry. Not only does the young man not want to hurt the girl, he does not want to disappoint other people who mean a great deal to him. So, he tells the young woman not to worry; they do not have to break up; everything will be OK. In fact, he leaves the school he was attending. He moves back home and commutes to the local college. Before he graduates two years later, he and the girlfriend get married --- afterall, it is what their families expected. It is what their friends were doing. It is what the girlfriend wanted. And the young man had convinced himself it was the right thing to do.

He had his doubts. He felt something was missing. He wasn't sure what that something was. But, he convinced himself, after long talks with an older mentor, that maybe what was missing was marriage itself. Maybe what was missing was the act of commitment. So, in order not to disappoint his or her parents; in order to keep in step with their friends; and, in order not to hurt this young woman he was fond of and cared for, he got married --- knowing something was missing.

The first years of their married life were uneventful and not completely fulfilling. He kept putting her off about having kids...he was uneasy about that sense he had that something was missing...but, their families were after them about grandkids; their friends were having children so, he began to think that maybe what was missing was a "family;" maybe what was missing was children. So, they got pregnant. And, when their first child was born, the young man finally KNEW what had been missing all along....

Because, with the birth of his first child, the young man had, for the first time in his life, the experience of a deep and profound love for another human being. Never before had he felt some thing so completely as what he felt for his child....and he finally knew what was missing in his relationship with the young woman he had been with since he was a young teenager. While he cared for her; while he was fond of her; while he would never want to deliberately hurt her or cause her harm, he did not LOVE her --- he did not love her as a husband should love a wife......and, now they had a child together.

He kept hoping maybe something would change. Maybe something would be different. Maybe with time, his feelings would grow and change. He and the woman he married had more children together. The birth of each child only reinforced that while he cared for her, he did not love her deeply or profoundly.

As a couple, they discussed separation; he felt, knowing her the way he did (and given his previous experiences in trying to end a relationship with her), that if he left, in her hurt and anger, she would try to keep his children from him. In conversations they had about separating, she had threatened as much, when she asked him, "Is this worth losing your family over?" Note: "family" for her was code word for "your children." The young man, now in his mid-30s, thought about separating. His thoughts were not, "I really love this woman and if we just work at this hard enough, we can be happy and stronger." His thoughts were, "If I leave this marriage, I will not be there in the evening to put my kids to bed and kiss them 'good night' every night. I cannot stand the thought of being separated from them." So, he stayed in the marriage. He even went to counseling, trying to figure out why he was not happy; why he even considered leaving. With the help of the therapist, he learned that part of the problem is he had not been communicating things he is not happy about to his wife; that some of the responsibility for his unhappiness lies with him not being more candid, avoiding confrontation and arguments. So, his wife was invited to the therapy sessions in order to establish a more productive coomunication process between them....only problem was, once the man began to be candid with his wife about some of the things with which he was not happy, her response was, "Sorry, but you are not going to blame me for your unhappiness. If you are unhappy, it is your problem, not mine. You need to get yourself fixed." The wife declined any further participation. So, the man continued in therapy in an effort to get himself fixed so he could save his marriage.

What he learned from his therapy was that if things were going to remain as they were between him and his wife, he did not want to stay married. He was also very clear, he was not willing to risk being separated from his children. So, he decided he would stay in the marriage until his youngest child reached the age of 18. His hope was that maybe, in the interim, something would change that would lead him to change his mind. Either something within himself would change and he would want to stay in the marriage to the mother of his children or maybe something would change with her, leading to the same outcome --- that he would want to stay. Choosing to leave was not something he wanted to do...he knew if he left it would be painful for everyone --- his wife, his children, him, and their respective families. It was not a choice he ever wanted to make.

A decade went by. His oldest child went off to college; his parents died within months of one another; his second child went off to school, too. With each event, the man became more clear that staying in the marriage was not how he wanted to spend the remainder of his life. His feelings had not changed. Time passing had not changed anything else, either.

His wife voiced her concern to family members that she feared he would ask for a divorce once their youngest graduated high school. She was not unaware of the depth of his discontent.

And yet, when he did indeed leave, when he found his own apartment, her response was just as he feared it would be ten years earlier. Her response was not "your father & I love you deeply. While he & I may no longer be together as husband and wife, we will always be your parents. Nothing will ever change or interfere with that. We both love you with all our heart."

This was not her response. Her response was, "Your father has left us. All we have is each other. You are my life now." She did what he had so long feared. She attempted to alientate his children from him. She spent herself into bankruptcy buying the now adult children things she never would have in the past --- things they as parents never would have bought --- all in a misdirected effort to demonstrate to these adult children she is the one who really loves them. Initially, his children, in their own hurt and anger, seemed to go along with this. Ultimately, through patient perseverance, his relationship with his children was restored.

Much in made in many different threads on this board of boundaries being violated. That SMs overstep their bounds. I wonder though, in what way are boundaries violated at the time of the dissolution of the parental marriage?

Is it made clear to the children that while the marriage is ending, the parental attachment remains intact? Or is the message communicated to the child, "Daddy is leaving US," with the implication not that the adults will no longer be husband and wife; the message is not only "I no longer have a husband but also you no longer have a father." Is communicating this message not a violation of boundaries? Is this not a blurring of the lines that exist between the marital relationship and the parental relationship?

Others have posted they encourage their children's father to be involved; yet the father cannot get their children's grades, they cannot pick up their children from school; they cannot know of school problems with their children unless their former wife grants permission for this to occur. The father can see and visit his children as long as his former wife controls the drop off and pick up. They can have a relationship with their children as long as the former wife is the gate keeper of the relationship. Is this not a violation of boundaries? At what point do former husbands who have made the decision to end their marriage finally throw up their hands and say "uncle?" At what point do they decide, "I will not subject myself to her efforts to control my relationship with my children --- even if it means withdrawing temporarily from those relationships --- with the full intent to resume connections once the relationship can be made directly, unencumbered by the ex-wife's insistence to be a go-between?

Where does this scenario fit in the topic of boundaries being overstepped? What about the damage done when one marital partner insists on including the children in the population of those who have been left....and then, in their own hurt and anger, set about constructing an environment that essentially becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy? Does this not damage attachments? Is this not a violation of boundaries?

"His oldest child went off to college; his parents died within months of one another; his second child went off to school, too. With each event, the man became more clear that staying in the marriage was not how he wanted to spend the remainder of his life."

This is such a stereotypical description of midlife crisis AKA clinical depression resulting from extremely stressful life events associated with growing older. No sensible person would believe that a man in this situation left the marriage because of long term unhappiness. If you wanted to come up with a semi-believable hypothetical situation, the least you could have done was leave out the parents dying within months of each other.

And, while you are at it, leave out the suicidal teenage girlfriend. Men (and women) who leave their families at midlife almost always rewrite the marital history - but, you know what, almost all of these guys actually WANTED to marry their wife and actually WANTED to have children with her. If he says anything else and you believe him, you are fooling yourself.

And then to blame the wife for his withdrawing from the children is adding insult to injury. I suppose it is MY fault my H called the children (actually only one of them) ONCE during the first week after he left one morning for work and decided never to come home again. A couple weeks later, at the counselor's urging, he called them again. And that was it. I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times he has called them since for other than logistical reasons.

For the first couple of years I personally notified him of every school event, and he refused to go to almost all of them. He CAN get all that school information you claim he can't - he just has to fill out a very simple form - which he has done three times in almost 10 years - and one of those times was because I asked him to talk to the school administration about something. In order for me to stop him from getting school records, I would have to submit evidence of a restraining order or similar - and he knows I am fine with him getting copies.

I am the one who tells him about meetings when the school forgets. I am the one who tells the school that they can't hold a team meeting without him.

He is the one who didn't give a d*** when our child had a serious illness for weeks that could potentially have been fatal. Who didn't call her or me (since she was very young) to ask how she was doing. He is the one who wouldn't go with me when she had general anesthesia on a different occasion, so he wasn't there when she had a bad reaction.

Oh yeah, and he was the one who told our oldest that he had waited until the children were grown to leave. Unfortunately, at the time we still had FIVE children under 18, including a three year old.

People who leave for another woman/man lie about EVERYTHING, even when they are obviously lying, on the theory that if they say it enough it will become true. They are just like the little kid with cookie crumbs on his face who swears he didn't eat the cookie.

"Never before had he felt some thing so completely as what he felt for his child....and he finally knew what was missing in his relationship with the young woman he had been with since he was a young teenager. While he cared for her; while he was fond of her; while he would never want to deliberately hurt her or cause her harm, he did not LOVE her --"

The love a parent has for a child is qualitatively different from that he or she has for a spouse. The love I felt for each of my children was overwhelming and like nothing else I had felt before. That did not mean I did not love my husband, because I did. Only an idiot would jump to the conclusion that because the love he felt for his child was so intense, that there was something missing in his relationship with his wife.

Let's say you take a bite of chocolate chip cheesecake for the first time, and it is fantastic. Do you then decide there was something missing before, and you never really loved steak? Wouldn't a sensible person realize that different taste buds were being stimulated? Or in the new father's case, that different parts of his brain were being stimulated?

I think most disinterested persons question many Dad's accounts of things like why marriage failed, when it failed, the school not providing him with grades, the mom not allowing visitation. Not all Dads are fabricating stories, but except in very unusual situations, Dad can have access to grades, etc. And I think much more common than Dad wanting visitation, is Dad not using the visitation he has.

It seems like the SMs here have two situations, one where Dad has custody, one where Dad wants more visitation. Different extremes. I do think there is a basic disagreement though, that most moms think that only Dad and Mom should have custody/visitation. I dont think visitation is for SMs (except in very unusual situations). I am not saying that SM may not love child, I am saying that except in unusual situations, persons other than parents (biological or adoptive) do not have custody/visitation rights.

Funny, I thought wrychoice did a pretty good job of setting up that this man was unhappy from the get go in this relationship, and didn't take it as a midlife at all. I took it as a young, naive man growing into an older, more experienced man realizing that his feelings as a young man had not changed, but that his responsibilities had.

Where is the response to the wife's behavior - her refusal to accept her husband's unhappiness and work for the betterment of her family by helping get to the bottom of it and possibly turn it around? Her decision to take this otherwise loving and involved father and make him the enemy?

TOS, no one is arguing that your ex deserves the Worst Father of the Year award. But let's examine this post without turning the hypothetical husband into your ex. Remember, every situation is different.

TOS,

The pain in your post is palpable and I am sorry you have been hurt and so profoundly betrayed. I hope your child is healthy now.

Actually, it might surprise you to learn that I am pretty conservative when it comes to marriage and divorce. In the faith tradition in which I was raised, marriage is a sacrement and divorce is an absolute taboo. If you pick up the book I suggested folks read, "Between Two Worlds," you might get a sense of some of my genuine concerns. There is no doubt in my mind that divorce damages people, especially children. The book, through research and anecdote, details this damage, even for kids whose parents allegedly have a "good" divorce.

So how do we, as a society, limit, if not prevent, this damage? Personal responsibility seems a good place to start. I was thinking about the story that "feelssoalone" posted --- the young woman who is involved with a previously married man, with whom she has a child & with whom she has bought a house. What a mess is that! That poor baby who is at the mercy of the adults...

How is a situation like this avoided? My first thought is "For heaven's sake, use birth control! Have all the sex you want, just don't have children." But one cannot have sex without pregnancy as a possibility, can one?

So how to make better choices in our own personal behavior; how to make better judgments in the partners we choose; how to be more thoughtful about the process of relating intimately with another human being; how to realize that a wedding is more than a stage show.....

I do believe adolescents can mistake intense sexual passion for "love." I do think young adults can make this same error. I do believe that sexual attachments can distort and be confused with emotional and spiritual attachments --- that one can be mistaken for the other...and, in that confusion, other attachments are made that entangle us even further...marriages are entered into creating legal attachments; homes are purchased creating geographical and financial attachments; children are born creating biological/parental attachments....only to discover one morning, months or years later that your spouse's/partner's farts stink. They squeeze the toothpaste tube from the bottom; they leave their dirty clothes on the floor and won't walk three extra feet to put them in the laundry basket. You like to save & he likes to spend; you're soft-hearted & he's a task-master. Your mythical mate does not exist.

How do we help our young people be more enlightened regarding intimacy? I am not sure any amount of education can compete with raging hormones, but maybe some seeds for thought can be planted...maybe if kids were made aware that connections to other people are made on many levels, only one of which is sexual passion, & how not to confuse this with deeper connections of emotion and spirit, especially when misguided passion could very well result in the conception of another human being, whose well-being you will be responsible for the rest of your life and who will connect you to your partner forever?

TOS, my hypothetical was an amalgam of not only my DH but also friends and family. By the way, my DH's parents did pass away within months of each other. It was devastating for him and his siblings. I did not learn of the suicidal GF from DH. His sister, to whom she was close at the time, shared that bit of information with me. DH has not once in the years we have been together ever uttered a critical word about his XW. He has always taken full and complete responsibility for ending the marriage. His only explanation? "I just did not love her the way a husband should love a wife." While your post about school issues inspired my comments about limiting/controlling access, I did not mean that as a personal attack on you. I was actually thinking about the situations of three people close to me: my brother, a nephew, and a male cousin. I hurt for them and I hurt for their children because, as is documented in the book I referenced earlier, divorce is incredibly damaging to kids even under the best circumstances. I cannot and sometimes do not want to even try to imagine how devasting their parents divorce and subsequent wars have been on the lives of my nieces and the children of my nephew and cousin.

How do we help folks make better choices about intimate relationships? And, once joined, how do we help folks foster healthy growth and development?

I appreciate the dialogue.

TOS,

When DH told me about the discovery he made when his first child was born --- that he was capable of experiencing deep love for another human being, I do not think he was comparing marital love to parental love. He just meant it was a revelation that he was capable of such intense emotion and that the emotion he felt was in the context of connection/attachment for another human being.

He was not without emotional connection to his then wife. According to him, his emotional connection was one of fondness and affection. For him, the connection lacked intensity and he was not aware of that lack until his first child was born. It was only then that he realized his capacity to be intensely emotionally attached to another.

Wrychoice

"How do we help folks make better choices about intimate relationships? And, once joined, how do we help folks foster healthy growth and development? "

Wry, I think that there may be many different stories here, but to say that the incompentent or indifferent mom is the more common one is a mistake. Not that it doesnt ever happen, just not as common as men who walk away, if not financially, emotionally. I think that if the mother is genuninely unfeeling, it may be difficult to move a relationship forward. And if DH has been telling you only one version of a story, then it is likely that there will be resentment.

wrychoice,

Thanks, my daughter recovered fully and doesn't really remember being ill. It is just her mother who was traumatized.

""I just did not love her the way a husband should love a wife."

I have been reading on another board that deals with infidelity for going on 10 years now, and virtually every single cheating husband or wife says some version of that quote above - even in cases where they have said the exact opposite to their spouses not long before. There is a running joke about there being a cheating spouse's handbook which they all have read. Are you absolutely 100% certain that your husband was not involved, either physically or emotionally, with another woman (I am not implying it was you) when he left his wife? Also, are you absolutely certain he wasn't suffering from depression? Actually, there is no way for you to know the answer to that question, since you presumably weren't there. No one should make any life altering decisions for quite awhile after something as traumatic as losing both parents within a few months has happened. I know how if feels to lose both parents within a short space of time.

There is NOTHING as intense as the love of a mother for her newborn child. I can't speak for paternal love, but I think his expectations were unreasonable, especially considering he would have passed the 2-year mark - which is pretty much the limit for how long the chemical changes in the brain characteristic of the newly "in-love" phase last.

"Your mythical mate does not exist."

This is true. Certainly you should think carefully before becoming seriously, and especially sexually, involved with another person, but there are many thousands, possibly hundreds of thousands, of people in this country alone who would make adequate mate for you. When you marry, you make the decision to love your spouse for the rest of your life.

None of the reasons you mentioned are sufficient reasons for getting married, and anyone with an ounce of sense would realize that. My teenager could tell you that. They also ALL sound like the rewriting of history to me.

Every decision you make precludes other decisions. Sometimes these decisions, such as decisions that result in the birth of a child, produce results that change your life permanently. There are rarely do-overs in life.

"...but to say that the incompentent or indifferent mom is the more common one is a mistake. Not that it doesnt ever happen, just not as common as men who walk away, if not financially, emotionally."

I absolutely agree. Despite the fact that my husband has custody of my stepdaughters, I am continually amazed when I hear of another father who has custody. My own father dumped me and my brother. That's the "typical" scenerio: deadbeat dad and the amazing strength of the single mom. My mom is my hero!!!

Unfortunately, I think because of the prevalence of the "deadbeat dad" scenario in our society (and my own experience), when I do come across a dad who has custody I automatically think that the mom must be a pretty bad mom. Definitely not fair!!! I try hard to change that perception but its going to take some time...

wrychoice- I thought a lot about what you said about making cookies with your granddaughter and it makes me want to cry because I know that love is so pure that unless someone taints it with their own agenda your granddaughter (biologically or not) will not ever love you any differently than any grandchild loves their grandparent regardless of blood. Don't children deserve all the love that people want to give them regardless of whether they are related by blood or marriage or not related at all??

You seem to have a gentle spirit and loving heart.
My MIL has been the most wonderful Grammy to my two children- if you met her with the four kids you wouldn't possibly be able to tell which two were bio and which two were step. She just about eats them up!

Grammies ROCK!