> Or is a "step family" a can of worms?

Yes. Yes it is. But that's beside the point.

I'd say you have to worry about 2 things -- any sort of real threat posed to your daughter by her father (drugs, dangerous situations, etc); and teaching your daughter to be able to think for herself, and to know that adults may actually be big fat liars (not specific adults, but any adults).

If you're both doing the Good Parent thing, the liking will take care of itself, although I always try to remind myself not to expect gratitude. :)

I see 2 parents that are nothing but bad examples for a little girl. Don't mean to hurt your feelings, but I see 2 morally bankrupt people that have made this child. I guess you all know me by now and where I stand on this type of behavior. A marriage could only be an improvement.

I was in the exact same circumstance, I moved in with a woman who had a five year old daughter with a father still very much in the picture. It was rough and heartbreaking when it started. I felt left out and it hurt me when she would scream "I want my Daddy!"
Fortunately this phase only lasted about 6 months to a year. It's always hard in the beginning but it gets better over time. Here are a few rules that have worked for me and will work for your husband:

1. Do not create unrealistic expectations of what your relationship will be with the stepchild. Life is not Norman Rockwell. Understand that this child may NEVER look at you as being her "Daddy". However their is the very real possibility that the child will grow to love you and reserve a special place in her heart for you, and eventually you may find yourself sharing a step on the "food chain" with Bio-Dad.

2. NEVER enter into competition with the Bio-Dad, it is a fight you are destined to lose. Even a deceased father can wield unimaginable power in the mind of the child as she idealizes her father into a standard noone can live up to.
NEVER say things like. "Daddy's not here, I'm the Dad in this family now." Let the child know in no uncertain terms that you are not trying to replace her father in her life, but that you are trying to fill the role of a father in the household. If you can stomach it, even go so far as to compliment her bio-dad in a small way. Like if she gets a gift from him say "He's got good taste in stuffed animals." That goes a long way in a child's eyes.

3. Do not discipline the child until 2 years after the marriage. Children understand when bio-parents discipline them, they know that they are loved no matter what. Stepchildren tend to think that a stepparent hates them when they are disciplined until they have become attached.
However you (MOM) must instill respect for adults in your daughter YOU reprimand her each time she is disrespectful to your husband. Tell her "I don't care if he isn't your Dad, you will treat ALL adults with respect."

4. Love her with all of your heart.

P.S. None of this will work until you are married. Marriage gives the child security, and sends her the message that your boyfriend is in it for the long haul.

Rosie - so you are saying living together is a big mistake?

- darkeyedgirl

When adults are doing their thing - its their own situation at stake, but yes Darkeye, I think its a horrible example for a small child. I suppose it is more common in some areas and some economic groups than others. Quite uncommon here. I would never even consider allowing my children to play in such a home. Has nothing to do with religion. Has to do with moral values. Its easy to choose the comfy, feel good thing. Much harder to do what is right. There will be many here to defend the shacking up thing, because I suspect that they subjected their children to the same. Do we teach our children to always make the right choice except when it feels good??

Rosie: they way you talk, people without a little piece of paper go about their lives different than people with the little piece of paper. I knew a couple who told everyone they got married in Hawaii, but in fact did not. No one knew the difference and you couldn't tell by looking a them. They don't raise their children any different than people who are married. They are both very successful people and they have great kids, no one is the wiser. Do you make your kids ask all their friends if their parents are really married before you let them talk to them? How do you really know what is going on in someone's life? People who are not married go about their lives just like everyone else. Try not to be so prejudice, the world is made up of all kinds of people and to surround yourself with only the ones that are like you is just plain snobby.

Just to add to the discussion: I live in the UK. UK law (and I think some if not all of the commonwealth states -- dunno about Canada) does not allow divorce except under extenuating circumstances (physical abuse, etc) until after 2 years of separation.

Seems a bit longish.

What you get from marriage are (plus side) penalties for leaving and (down side) loss of certain tax breaks and other monetary concerns.

IMHO, marriage "per se" doesn't impinge on the morality of a situation. (Although I'm sure this particular topic has been beaten into the ground. (Cheating, on the other hand, I have objections to.) )

The thing is, I think you have to evaluate the circumstances yourself to see how good a situation is for your kid(s) -- is your boyfriend nice to your and yours? Does he proactively contribute to the good of your family? Is there a revoling door bedroom? Etc and so forth.

IMHO, marriage as an institution comes from seeing the world through 'authority' lenses -- ie did I fill out the form correctly, 'cops didn't see it, I didn't do it' etc. Whereas if you switch your gestalt and think of things from a 'physics' point of view -- is my boyfriend providing a stable (very necessary for small kids), safe, and morally upright (whatever that means) example to my child? Is he solving problems instead of causing them? Are *you solving probs, not causing them? If so, well there you go.

That's why you get into relationships in the first place -- have somebody else to help you solve problems.

Marriage helps contribute to stability because it imposes penalities, both financial, societal, and to a certain extent psychological, on leaving. If the two of you, you and your boyfriend, don't need those penalities, then it wouldn't seem to me to matter so much.

Joe - well said.

Marriage is a great institution, but if you choose to live with your partner without the "magic piece of paper" than I think when done properly, it is also perfectly acceptable. Rosie, I agree with you that living together is not a good thing if you just hop from person to person with no thought to how it affects your kids lives, but I don't think that always the situation. You stated that your children would not be allowed to play with children whose parents weren't married. What are you afraid that they will catch or see. These kids are no different, these household are no different!! I think the most important thing here is how the kids are treated. If they are old enough to discuss it with, than I think that is the thing to do. If they are very young (5 like Darkeyed Girl's daughter) than they don't know the difference. As long as the household is run properly than a piece of paper doesn't make a bit of difference.

He WANTS TO GET MARRIED. I believe I put that in up there. It is all he is talking about. So YES he has the stability in mind and he wants to provide, he DOES provide!

I didn't live with my exhusband before we were married. We got married, went on the honeymoon, then a week later moved in together. What a whopping huge mistake. I didn't know he had a drug problem until after we shared an address. I didn't know lots of things about him; like, he was very lazy, refused to help with 'anything' (he was raised to believe women do all the work), and well 11 months later we divorced after a plethera of problems.

I won't be berated for being divorced. That is insane. My ex has been in and out of rehab and jail since my girl was 2 months old. Should I have stayed married to him, because it was morally right? Even though it would have resulted in her being hurt (he left his pills laying around) and me being dragged into his world of theft, lies and drugs?

To not let a child play with another child who is not in a "married family" is nuts. I live in Cincinnati. Conservative town, etc. But most of the people I know, are divorced. My daughter's best friend Olivia is from what we grandly refer to as a "broken home". It's not broken at all! Her parents are divorced, Olivia's mother lives with her boyfriend (just like I do). Olivia and Emily have a parallel life and get along so well. I love letting Emily stay with Olivia because of the fun she has there. Should I be afraid of Olivia's mom's boyfriend? No way. He is fun, provides for the mom's two kids, and is great to my kid. Same with my boyfriend; he is all-that and a bag of chips.

My main question was wondering how well kids adjust to a "new dad" in the home. He's not her step father just yet, but I stress, YET. He is talking non-stop about getting engaged next year and how thrilled he is to be a part of "our" lives.

- darkeyedgirl

Don't let Rosie's opionions upset you. That is just how Rosie feels and every one has their own feelings and beliefs. In my case, my first ex was a cheating jerk. Not a good example of what a true man should be. Next I got married to a guy I knew for several years and oh boy! that was an even bigger mistake. I left the abusive jerk and after 2 years of no contact he finally filed for divorce, I was afraid to. So that blows the theory that marriage forms stability for the kids. My kids were freaked out over the whole thing and told me never to get married again and never to put them in that situation again. Currently I am a "shacking up" with a wonderful guy. We have been together for 2 1/2 years and in that time he has provided emotional stability for my kids (who were 18 and 16 when we got together) and he has been a good role model for them too. He's not perfect, but he is a good man and our commitment is permanent and the kids know that. Sorry that I got off the topic.

Susnnn... I agree... not ALL marriages are picture perfect and "Cleaver-ish". Mine sure as he-l wasn't and neither was yours.

And I respect everyone's comments; that is why I love this site and post on several other forums. Everyone has a different life, different past, and I respect everyone's comments and wishes.

Re: the role model situation - that is mainly what my boyfriend is there for. As you can imagine, my DD's father is a nightmare. He has NEVER been a good role model, going as far as stealing her toys to sell for drugs, disappearing for months on end, being stoned around her (never EVER alone with her - he has "limited supervised visitation" with her) and never supporting her financially. THe last time he was jailed, she didn't remember what he looked like or what he sounded like - she was afraid to speak on the phone to him!

My boyfriend has done more for us than this waste of a man has done in 6 years. I know it's been an adjustment (to say the least) for all involved - for him, to get used to living with a child when he has none, for my daughter - to get used to having a man around all the time when it's just been "her and I" for so long. And for me, to get used to accepting help and money and support when I was used to shouldering it all on my own. I am no longer Wonder Woman and I can't tell you what a weird relief it is.

This morning was a great morning, Dave got to hang out with my girl while I got ready for work. Normally he has to be into work by 6am and she's still asleep. Well he didn't have to be in 'til 9. So, they sat downstairs and ate breakfast together while I did my usual hour-long get-ready process! It was great to listen to them laughing and talking. She will have to be "reconditioned" after this coming weekend; she has a whole 2.5 days to spend with her bio-father. Sunday night will no doubt bring more crying, fighting, and weirdness towards Dave. It hurts him and breaks my heart. There is no use in talking to the bio-dad about it, either; he probably takes great delight in knowing he is causing such turmoil in her life. He never liked her.

Just like you say Sus, my bf is not perfect either; he has a ton to learn about kids. But his committment to me is mind-blowing and she sees this. She goes around telling her school teachers and friends how mommy and Dave are so happy and now she has two people to hug and kiss good-night.

To me that is stability.

- darkeyedgirl

Just because people have made bad choices in selecting a mate, doesn't mean that marriage is passe. It is not the fault of the institution of marriage, but rather of people that marry too young, for the wrong reasons, with little knowledge of their spouse and worst of all with little knowledge of themselves. I know even more live-ins that have broken up than I know marriages that have broken up. I have more of a commitment from my tenants (one year leases) than most people have from living together. You do not need another person in your life to give your child a stable home. And the providing ... well there's another name for that altogether. As a LL, I se this day in and day out and to tell you the truth the relationships usually end before the lease expires and those children are subjected to yet another new partner that will stabilize their lives and save them. I thoroughly agree that divorce is sometimes very necessary, especially where there is abuse, adultery or addiction. However, I think that if children are born of that relationship, they should be #1. What does it teach a child when a mother thinks so little of herself and her worth as a human being that she feels she cannot make it emotionally or financially without dragging someone into her home in the hopes that someday he will marry her. More important than having the time to live with a BF to get to know him, we need to live alone and get to know ourselves before becoming involved in a relationship. You don't get to know people by living with them, but by the test of time. I have friends for 30 years that I love dearly that I know intimately that I have never lived with. We always tell our kids (ages 16 and 17) that their choice of a life partner will either make them or break them...that they need to take their time. We also tell them that if they ever choose to cohabitate with a member of the opposite sex without benefit of marriage, they can forget any financial aid from there on - for school or otherwise and they can also forget the big wedding. I will have no part in putting the cart before the horse. I know my perspective is different. I am 50 years old, married to the same man for nearly 29 years and if God is good, his face will be the last I see on this earth. I have learned to prioritize. We have spent our lives doing what we thought was right. Thinking things out, planning. Didn't have our first child until we were married 12 years. You cannot follow your heart. The heart lies - its sometimes hormones run amock. You have to use your head. Has it been this good because we took our time, thought things out? I think so. We knew each other for 3 years (dating exclusively) before our marriage. Were engaged for one year after 2 years of dating. I see these kids nowadays that date for 6 months and think they are in love because they haven't broken up yet. I always tell our kids that they deserve the best and stability comes from the choices we make in life. Finding the right life partner takes time and maturity. When they had the D.A.R.E program at school, they held a parent meeting and the officer told us that when his kids would leave the house for a date, he would always say ... "you know whats right and whats wrong. Make the right choices". That's what I say here. If you know for sure that this is the man you will marry and you have a date set that's a week away ... go ahead move in. But when, he moves in and he is hinting at marriage and you are not sure ...... that is too unstable a relationship for me to fathom bringing a child into. That can only hurt the child when it doesn't work out. How many times will this happen?

Rosie, I do agree with you about relationships that are based on financial need, and short term relationships and what not. I do know that those are harmful situations to kids (and adults) My boyfriend and I are technically engaged. I can give you about 4 solid reasons why we have not tied the knot. Believe me I would love to be married to him and he feels the same way. But there are a few things that will be cleared up in time.
As far as making the right choices, maybe I am stupid, but I have always believed that I was making the right choices. And even though the choices turned out to be bad ones, they weren't necessarily wrong ones because I did learn from them and have taken those lesons with me.
Rosie I would love to be like you, married to one man for life. Life would be much easier. But for some reason our society has really weakened the committment of marriage. Not for me, but evidently for my first husband(the cheater. Life isn't easy.
For the first 5 years after my first divorce, I raised the kids alone, no boyfriend nothing. So please do not put me in your category of women who need a man for financial support or emotional support.
I have also spent my life doing what I thought was right, however I couldn't control the behaviour of the other people in my life.
And although I do follow my heart in some ways, I do follow my head too.
So cut some of us a break Rosie, we didn't necessarily choose to be single parents going around again and again.

darkeyedgirl: You sound like you have found a great guy and have given this alot of thought. Maybe the idea of getting married again just makes you nervous because of the 1st bad experience. I certainly understand that, mine was very similar (drugs and alcohol), but my ex took longer to show his true side or maybe I just thought he would grow out of it. We dated 4 years and were engaged 1 year before getting married. We never lived together before we married and I didn't know that he had all kinds of hangups from his dad about what was expected after you get married. I think you are doing the right thing and you are providing a safe, stable home environment for your daughter.
I think your daughter may have a hard time until she can grasp what kind of man her father really is. She is so young to be able to see that now, but at least her visitation time is short. You and Dave just need to be there for her when she comes home and show her that everything is the same as when she left a couple days prior. When my SD would return from visiting her mother, my husband would have to "deprogram" her. She would yell and call us names and lie for the first couple of days after returning until we started sitting her down the next day and reminding her about acceptable and unacceptable behavior in our home. Of course he was 15 at the time and about 6 months later decided to live with us full time. The deprograming time was less when she just visited EOW, but still frustrating and disruptive to the rest of the household.

Hang in there. You sound like you and Dave are good people and everything will work out, just have patience.

Take care

Firstly, I'm not someone who needs a man. Geezus, I scoff at that!!! I have lived ALONE in MY house (own, not rent mind you) since my child was in diapers. I NEVER have received child support. I have NEVER asked a man for money and never did any give me any. Yes I dated. Was involved for 1 year with someone who had a child, he wanted to get married and have oodles of babies so I broke up with him (we did NOT co-habitate). I knew I was unable to have more children so I let him go his own way and find a woman who wanted to get pregnant again.

Then I was involved with someone for 1.5 yrs. He also had a daughter. Yes my DD became VERY attached to both these men's daughters. This second long-term relationship ended VERY BADLY and was NOT healthy for me or my DD. I knew that and thanked God when it ended. This one was never going to result in marriage and I even told him so, to his face. I suppose it was that harsh realization (that I didn't want to marry him) that made things easier when he stormed off and broke off our relationship... I knew it was not something I wanted in my life permanently.

SO you see, I don't flit around from man to man. Heck I hardly dated in between those two long-termers. AND I NEVER lived with anyone else. The last time I lived with someone it was when I had a ring on my finger. Trust me I told this much to Dave when we discussed him moving in. I told him that I'm not used to having a man 'underfoot' and I was fearful it'd be like having a whole 'nother child to take care of. And I had very VERY bad memories of the slovenly, lazy man I married drooling on the couch, me cleaning up around him and making sure he was fed and lying on his side so he'd not choke on his own drug-induced vomit. So YES I was fearful of "things" happening over again.

I am more than independent, to the point people admire me greatly for it. I do NOT NEED Dave for his money OR support. I had to laugh at that! Are there really women out there who are that helpless and needy? If so, I pity them. Cuz I'm not one of them.

It is just SO NICE to come home and see I have HELP with 'things'. Everything. I handled it all for so long that I became accustomed to it. Having him there for 'it all' is wonderful. But I do not need it.

And yeah it'd be all peachy keen and fine to be in a long marriage and only have one man. But that is not how my life has been - lots of us haven't had the pleasure Rosie has had. I can't go back and change things. This is my life. You bet I'd love to be in a stable marriage with just ONE PERSON. Which is something I can now work towards. Just because I'm no longer an 18 year old virgin who will wear a white veil at my wedding doesn't mean I'm garbage. I'll wear white; I'll just be 30-something and toting a school-ager to the altar with me.

MI Step Mom... the idea of marriage was not even an idea until we met. I was dead-set against it. I mean if I wanted to hook onto someone and get married, it'd been with that first long-term relationship I had years back. But I knew it was wrong because he wanted babies galore. I didn't. Is that a wrong reason to end a relationship, or should I have married him and risked my health (I have Epilepsy and am now infertile), just to provide a "stable" relationship for my daughter?

Should I have forced my exboyfriend, the angry and miserable guy with the daughter my own daughter adored, into marriage to make things stable, to have a husband, to give Emily a father?

No way.

And I won't do that here. The only reason I can see to marry this man I'm living in sin with is because I love him and he loves me, and we want to be together. Not because I need his money (hah hah.. I make more than he does...) or because I need a 'man' around.

What a weird conversation this has been... but fun.

- darkeyedgirl

You go darkeyedgirl!! Not all single mother's are sleezy, co-dependent, helpless, clingy women! Being a single parent teaches you to be stronger, more resourceful and very very brave. You sound confident and like you know what you want. Go for it!

That being said, there's more in favor (I think anyway) of being partnered up, as long as the other person isn't an anchor around your neck (and all the other 'as long as' disclaimers). I'd hate to think of having to parenting my SS all by myself.

(The little SOB :) spat at me the other day! The nerve of some people...humph. )

I think you misunderstood something I said. I don't see anything wrong with what you are doing and I certainly don't think you should stay with someone who is "unstable". I was also a single mom and was doing just fine until my husband came into my life. I was blown away. I made sure this was going to be good not only for me but my boys. We lived together only after we were engaged and only because we were gutting and redoing his house and it was easier to be able to work until 12:00AM knowing that my kids were safe in bed. Like I said you sound like you have it all together and found a wonderful guy. You do what you feel is best for you and your daughter and no one should be able to tell you otherwise. Good Luck