vbunch.......I would suggest moving out and getting premarital counseling. How long have you known her, dated her, been engaged?....What attracted you to this woman?

Believer,

I've known her for 6 years during which time we dated and got to know each other. When we met I was going through my custody battle, the ex up and left there were private detectives involved, attorney's you name it. I took that time in my life to get myself together she knew of what I was going through but didn't really experience any of it because I felt that was something I should do on my own as well as get myself and my life together. I managed to keep everything very separate but she was very caring, supportive, compassionate and when I needed anything she was there to lend a hand whether it be a ride or whatever. It was four years after wards that we started getting serious and four years after my custody settled too. Thats when we started going on outings together with our kids and they took an extreme liking to each other and we all got along great, the past year is when we've settled down and moved in together, it just came together that way a home fell in our lap everything felt right, she was and still is good with my son, although the confusion of what role I'm to play drove a wedge between me and her daughter. Things took a turn seems immediately after we moved in together, all of sudden she wasn't happy avoiding me, spending a lot of time in the room alone as a matter a fact the first night she spent it crying in her daughters room. We never had a honeymoon stage. We have had a lot of good moments but its 50/50 right now but it still to much time to be upset and it feels like its all the time because time drags when we're upset. She's not the woman I fell for anymore she's changed and in turn i'm changing into someone I don't like very much.

Dear Vbunch,

I know that my post was short. I can get kinda long winded and I didn't want to start out that way but here goes...Just so you know I am the biomom of 2, the step of 3. 2 of the steps have lived in my home, one for 13 years, one for 3 and still here. I am 3 years into my 2nd marriage.

I asked you what had attracted you to her because I wanted you to remember why you were with this woman to begin with. It is easy to loose sight of that when troubles begin.

I have lived with SO with out being married. Had troubles during that time, didn't seek help and married any way. Stayed in the marriage far to long and finally left. From my experience I wouldn't live together if kids were involved. That is my opinion...I know that there are a lot of people that post here that live with SO....not meant to be a judgement or criticism or anyone else. Please don't take offense.

If you still love this woman then you both need premarital counseling, family counseling, individual counseling or a combination of these. Your problems aren't going to go away and if you think that you want to salvage this then you need a 3rd party to help you work through it.

You're not going to have a honeymoon stage....get over it! It sucks, I know but with kids that's just the way it is. You can plan weekends away once in a while or have a date night but the luxury of having personal time on an extended bases with SO is pretty much over.

Was she crying the night you moved in together because you fought?

One of the reasons that I suggested that you move out is because it would give you all a break while you would go to counseling. It would be just temp. if you want but if you are both feeling so stressed out this is so bad for you and the kids. You do still need to maintain some one on one with your child. Kids need that in any family situation.

These are just my suggestions....I have lived in a home that feels like a war zone and it's terrible. None of you should be living like that. Stress can do damage my friend. It can make you sick, it can end a relationship, it isn't good for the kids.

Keep posting....you'll be getting a lot of advice. :o>

Believer,

I hear what you mean and if I can go back I would of stayed in my two bedroom apartment but here I am and these are the cards I've been dealt for now. I've accepted the fact that there was no honey moon stage but I would have settled for some bliss before the havoc but we went straight to arguing. The night we moved in she cried because she was sad about something she wouldn't share with me and still hasn't till this day we hadn't argued I figured it was cause she was gonna be a lil further away from her family rather than in the same complex and gave her some space. I did have a moment of self pity where I felt unappreciated because she didn't even acknowledge the fact that I worked my butt off that whole day to get us moved in and all set up so that what I thought was gonna be my family could be comfortable the next morning and evening, having set up the living room, kitchen, beds ect. ect. ect. but I brushed it off and said ok, I'll give her this one. The kids I can deal with and she has gotten better with what I've tried to talk to her about concerning her daughter, my thing is she doesn't have to give those low blows she likes to push my buttons and I see it as pointless if she is gonna try and conform to what I'm talking to her about. I'm getting through to her daughter on my own, I just feel she needs to step up and say something once in while when her daughter is out of line. My son is very easy even with her. I think the problem is her because she likes to upset and antagonize me, the kids don't hear much nor do they undestand she does it in a way so the kids can't interpret what shes trying to say, they just see me upset and I'll step outside/walk away what ever it be but she does it so much it building up inside of me and every time I get mad easier and easier because I have so much to say and I can't say my piece, she is just sooo difficult, and she knows it shes admitted it and shes even told me I deserve better. She said she see herself being mean and doesn't know why and can't help herself, I am beginning to see her as a verbally abusive person and I can't deal with that.

Newbie,

Somehow every adult who posts here thinks his/her kids are well behaived and easy to get along with, but their partner doesnt discipline and the partners kids are brats/manipulative. I would sugget that people do see their own children differenlty.

Frankly, if my partner -- if I had one, I dont now-- invited people over before asking me first in private, I would be peeved. Dont you think maybe you should have asked first?

"She said she see herself being mean and doesn't know why and can't help herself"

Now I realize this is an adult, not a child, who doesn't know why they are behaving badly, but just today I posted about that we don't accept "I don't know why I did/said that" from FDH's 9yo son.
Now if it's not an acceptable excuse for bad behavior from a 9yo, I sure don't think it's an acceptable excuse from an adult.
Could you point out to her that this would not be acceptable from a child and is NOT acceptable from an adult?

"she knows it shes admitted it and shes even told me I deserve better."
That's a strange and abusive behavior.
An old BF of mine used to do that... He would pull a jealousy stunt, I'd get upset with him for it, and he'd say "I'm a horrible jerk and you deserve better" so that I would say "No, you're a good BF etc etc"
It's a way for an abusive person to be in control and receive validation of their abuse.
DON'T TOLERATE IT. You don't have to take abuse or validate your abuser.

KK's right that people tend to see their own kids through rose-coloured glasses. But I don't think "whose kid is better?" is the issue at hand. I think the issue at hand is that you are a second-class citizen in the relationship and your FDW making sure to keep you that way.

I would be peeved if my DH said, "Hey everybody, come over this Saturday," without asking me. However, if he said (as it sounds like OP said), "I'd like you to come over sometime," there's nothing to get peeved about because nothing has been set in concrete.
Children who are encouraged to correct adults and to ignore the directions of adults are, in my opinion, being set up to be toads and I wouldn't want to spend any time around them either. Adults who treat their partners as inferior beings who need to be corrected and ordered around in public are also toads and not people I would spend time with.
Sounds to me like now you've moved in together you're no longer seeing your GF's "company manners" but the "real her" and it's not a pleasant revelation. Since she doesn't seem to be rushing to fix what she acknowledges is her "meanness" I think you should consider taking her at her word ("you deserve better") and moving out.
If she is interested in getting couselling there may be some hope but if she isn't I'm afraid you're in for a long time of unhappiness.

"She tells her daughter not to pay attention to what I have to say and doesn't respect or listen to me especially when her moms not around which is always interesting because she acts out"

"On top of that she follows me around the house looking for my every mistake and ordering me around and correcting me and she tells her daughter to correct me too."

"Her mom demands that I respect her daughter like an adult and although I do agree with treating people with respect she is a child and sometimes needs to be told what to do and how to do it. But my fiancee isn't having it coming from me."

One word, dear. Run. RUN. R-U-N. Without some serious counseling I don't see this one working out. This woman can't have her cake and eat it, too.

I'm sorry, but I have to agree with justnotmartha. RUN. Well, not right away...not before you give it that old college try. Try counseling. I lived with my husband for 4 months (along with my 2 biological sons) before his children suddenly came to live with us. And when I say "suddenly" I mean, "BM called at 5:00 AM one morning and said "come pick the kids up by 5:00 PM...I'm getting kicked out of my house." I couldn't even BEGIN to go into all of the issues we had at first. They were bad. Really bad. But in time, much of this has worked it's way towards the positive side. It DID take work though. A LOT of work, a lot of sleepness nights spent talking about our issues until dawn...but both my (now)husband and I seem to have something you do not seem to have at this point...we had a MUTUAL DESIRE to make it better, somehow someway...Instructing her child to boss you around like a little kid is way out of line...Now, please don't take this as my "advice" to you...but take it as my explanation of what I would do in this situation. *I* would say "I'm an adult...and I am not going to have a child tell me what I should do, what I am doing wrong and what I can't do. You need to respect that because while I understand you don't need me to be a parental figure to your child I need YOU to know that I don't need a parental figure either. Again, I am an adult."

Sorry I can't be of more help. I mean, there were times that my husband and I nearly threw in the towel because it seemed hopeless...but we didn't. Bottom line, if there is no respect, do you really have a healthy, fulfilling relationship?

It sounds to me like both OP and his partner are used to running their own homes (partner with help from her DD). I still say, OP should have discussed any invitations, even general, with his partner. He is used to running his own show, and I suspect he ignores when he treats home as his own, and not shared, and then has a thin skin when partner reacts. So you end up with two people -- one with the help of a child -- battling. I agree with counseling. One of the problems here is we only hear one side of the story. My guess is both adults have their own house rules (as we do) and havent tried to agree on them -- or if they have OP doesnt live with them, and that is frustating to his partner.

My husband and I had many conflicts when we first married - mostly over housekeeping, cleaning, laundry etc. I was used to a very clean and tidy home. His place had been chaos. I've heard him complain many times that I followed him around issuing orders, and I probably did. I forced all his kids to wash their hands, use cutlery, wear clean clothes etc etc.

However, I love my husband and was never cruel or mean. Your girlfriend seems like a troubled person. Did she grow up in a happy family? Was she abused? I agree that counselling is a good idea. However, it may be the case that you fell in with a supportive, but troubled person at a difficult time in your life. It took an unusually long time for you to start dating and then move toward marriage. I recommend that you listen carefully during counselling and then assess whether you can have a calm, happy life with this person.

1.

'he'd say "I'm a horrible jerk and you deserve better" so that I would say "No, you're a good BF etc etc"
*It's a way for an abusive person to be in control and receive validation of their abuse.*'
(emphasis mine.)

been there, done that/had it done to me, recognize the pattern;
It's all about control / manipulation.

2.

Being used to running your own household doesn't equate to handing down the decision that your partner may not have people over unless the house is *deep cleaned*.

Being used to running your own household means you say, "Oh, gosh, Honey, the place is a mess. I'd hate for any of your friends to see it like it is now. We'd have to spend all day Saturday cleaning; do you want to do that?"

3.

Refusing to listen, covering ears with a pillow, etc is provocative behavior:

It's engineered to make the other person lose control & start screaming...

or throw stuff against a wall (I broke a perfectly lovely vase during my involvement with a passive-aggressive jerk who used provocative behavior to keep me frustrated all the time. & I'm not a "thrower" as a rule.

I wish you the best.

"Somehow every adult who posts here thinks his/her kids are well behaived and easy to get along with, but their partner doesnt discipline and the partners kids are brats/manipulative. I would sugget that people do see their own children differenlty."

Maybe I do see him differently, We have a bond starting from birth but I wouldn't disregard the fact that she doesn't complain about him and I have seen him talk back to her but I always step in to say something and I have no problem with her doing it herself. My son is a bit sensitive and shes complained about that and also the fact that his bio mom tries to drive a wedge between them and the kids sometime fight like real brothers and sisters, typical kid stuff but nothing like what I've been dealing with. Maybe I should get her on here to give her feedback.

Frankly, if my partner -- if I had one, I dont now-- invited people over before asking me first in private, I would be peeved. Dont you think maybe you should have asked first?

Whats good for the Goose is good for the Gander. Shes done the same thing. She invites her family all the time. Does she console me on when she throws the idea out there, no. Later she'll ask if its ok and I don't mind. Its a two way street and if that the case its rather hypocritical of her wouldn't you think??

"you are a second-class citizen in the relationship and your FDW making sure to keep you that way."

Yes, thats what I feel.

"However, if he said (as it sounds like OP said), "I'd like you to come over sometime," there's nothing to get peeved about because nothing has been set in concrete."

And yes thats what I said. I didn't set a date or anything of the like. I simply put it out there just to see if we could get something together. I don't see much of my family we all have our separate lives, I wanted to know when my mom would be available, Thats not the issue, we had a date to the movies friday night and before we left my S/O invited my mom to come with us, which surprised me. She later asked me if she was out of line but I didn't think anything of it.

"Refusing to listen, covering ears with a pillow, etc is provocative behavior:

It's engineered to make the other person lose control & start screaming... "

OMG Yes, it just fills me with rage, I think it rather childish. Like a small girl that doesn't want to listen to a lecture. Maybe I should use the timeout method. Geez...

"Being used to running your own household means you say, "Oh, gosh, Honey, the place is a mess. I'd hate for any of your friends to see it like it is now. We'd have to spend all day Saturday cleaning; do you want to do that?"

Exactly!!!

Question, I'm really tempted to send my S/O this link. What do you think?

From how your describe your SO, i would dump her so fast. Especially how she treats you in front of others and then says she give permission for your child to come over whenever. To top it off she doesn't descipline her own and tells you to butt out!??
There has to be cohesiveness as a family unit with both of you on the same page. You guys are not on the saem page because she chooses for you to be second and for her to be in control.
Your SO sounds abusive and controllive. I would serious go into couciling for both of you and if that doesn't work , take a good look at your relationship and ask yourself are you happy? Are you happy with the way this person is treating you.? Why does she act like a child when you ask for your family to come over but for hers its ok?
SHe sounds childish at times. and oh yes, DEMEANINg! are you her futur husband or child?

Wow! It really does sound bad doesn't it and it even sounds worse coming from you guys and gals. It feels so good to be agreed with, I wish it was so easy. The truth is I am not happy with the way i am being treated, look at what I'm resorting to here I'm on a message board looking for a beckon of light. She talks about us having kids and getting married but the way she is, I can't do it. I've been here before the only difference is I know better now. I can see everything unraveling already and I need to disengage and move on because there is no point to staying here in this place.

I just want to throw out my opinion. This is not about parenting or blending families really. There is an adjustment period and tension when blending first moving in together. yes, you are both used to doing things your way... there has to be compromise on both sides. What you describe is a selfish brat. (the mother, not the daughter)

That being said, it's my opinion that after six years of knowing each other, if you are in a serious relationship where you are exposing your kids to living with a partner (her daughter on a full time basis), then there should be some sort of agreements and open communication regarding all the things you describe. What I see is a complete lack of respect for you and as Sylvia pointed out, she's acting in a way to goad you into 'losing it' and then she can play victim and make you feel guilty for having an opinion or for not agreeing with her. It's beyond childish. Imagine you lose it and she calls the cops & you end up in jail on a domestic violence. You've already said you are becoming someone you don't like. I've been there. I am a kind, gentle, caring, patient, loving & giving person, but my ex could send me into rages that even I was frightened by. It wasn't me... it was scary.

You don't have a problem with her daughter, the problem is with the mother and they are going to keep having this problem until she finds some sucker that will tolerate it. Earlier I said you are both exposing your kids to living with your partner, only it doesn't sound like you have a partner. She is treating her daughter more like a partner than she's treating you like one. How is her daughter ever going to respect you if she doesn't? Heck, your son may start to lose respect for you if he sees the way your are being treated and if you allow yourself to be treated that way.

My advice: Try talking to her and consider couple's counseling. If you have tried to talk to her but she won't hear you, then disengage and move on and find someone that will be your partner and have respect for you. And for goodness sake, if you stay together, DON'T have kids with her until you completely evaluate how she is with her daughter's father. That's a clear indicator of how she will be with you if things don't work out.

Hi vbunch,

I think that you gave yourself very good advice in your last post.

I am a dad and a stepdad, and my wife has never treated me the way your fiance has treated you. That would be a deal breaker in my opinion.

If you move on, I think that you need to re-evaluate the character traits that you should be looking for in a partner. You have known this woman for six years, yet you just recently saw her verbally abusive behavior? That's a lot of time to waste on someone who is wrong for you.

You should not accept a relationship that is OK 50% of the time and terrible the other 50%. That's too unstable for you and the children involved.

Your fiance should definitely see a counsellor. She alternates between acting like she hates you to wanting marry you and have more children.

Save yourself and your son from future trauma by moving out. Make a list of what you think you deserve in a relationship and find someone who shares those values.

Athlete

If living together prior to marriage is not recommended, how could OP have predicted this kind of behavior after knowing this woman for six years?

Well it been three nights since sunday evening and there has been no talking and no progress what so ever. She is avoiding the situation. I'm either gonna have to be the peace maker which will probably lead to her putting a pillow over her head again and another argument, which leaves us in the same place. If I stand my ground and leave it up to her she is gonna sit on me when I'm off guard and try to kiss me till I give in without confronting the issue which leaves me still angry and upset and nothing gets resolved. Which is probably why things have gotten this bad in the first place. Or its really over and I should cut my losses. Anyway you look at it, its not good. Things would be a lot better if we could sit down and really talk but thats not how it is.

If you mean by peace maker, giving in and ending a stand off and if standing your ground results in the same behavior my daughter tried on me when she was 3 years old to get out of trouble (and it didn't work!), those are not very good options to choose from. I'm voting for 'cutting your losses'. In fact, you aren't just cutting YOUR losses, your cutting your son's losses because as much as you might love this woman, she is poison to your child. (and your relationship to him) Anyone that thinks the way to resolve their problems at age 27 is to put a pillow over their ears or hold you on the ground and change your mind with kisses or sex, does not have the skills for an adult relationship. Too bad you didn't see it sooner, but really... people don't usually change and you can try to stay as long as you can put up with it, but eventually you will 'escape' and by then, how much damage will it have done to your son? Will he be able to forgive you if your relationship with him is destroyed or damaged? Would it be worth it? R*U*N Vbunch R*U*N*!!!!

I know they are not very good options. I just feel I can't confront the issue head on because it never goes smoothly. I would like to, I'm at a loss here. Yes its become a stand off would I like to put a stop to it yes, would I have like to avoid it all together yes but thats not at all the situation.

Please don't fall into the trap of thinking that you don't have an alternative to this situation.

I think that there is a good option, and that is to start the process of looking for another place to live.

I would do this on your own time, without giving her a chance to talk you out of it.

Once you have found a place, then I think it will be easier for you to cut your losses with her and move on.

It's time to stop being a victim and take control of your life again. You and your son will be happier elsewhere.

Athlete

I'm with Ima and Athlete on his one. As long as you can't resolve the issue it will hang around, and others like it will pile up on top. Clearly your GF is not interested in resolving anything, or in changing your relationship dynamic even though she acknowleges that it is dysfunctional. This is NOT a relationship dynamic you want to be modelling for your son, or her daughter for that matter.
Move out and move on.

"I'm with Ima and Athlete on his one. As long as you can't resolve the issue it will hang around, and others like it will pile up on top. Clearly your GF is not interested in resolving anything, or in changing your relationship dynamic even though she acknowleges that it is dysfunctional. This is NOT a relationship dynamic you want to be modelling for your son, or her daughter for that matter. Move out and move on."

I couldn't agree with you more, the really messed up part is that shes referenced one her past relationships, said that she s traumatized and there were things that went on that she hasn't told me. That just makes me feel like I've been paying for another mans mistakes. On top of that it wasn't ever mentioned before so I couldn't imagine what went on nor what I was up against.

What a major fail and disappointment!!!! =0(

"What a major fail and disappointment!!!! =0( "

I know it hurts now and for this I am sorry - but try to take is as a lesson learned. If you don't learn the lesson, it will come back to repeat itself.

My first marriage was the worst but I am thankful for it for I know exactly what I do NOT want in my life.

In total agreement with Ima and Athlete.

It doesn't really even matter who is righ or wrong or invented the rules etc. etc. If you are unhappy 50% you need to move out. I would say if you are even unhappy 1% of the time you would be justified! Life is too short to spenf it feeling demeaned and under appreciated.

Plus if it is hurting your relationship with you child in ANY way you need to double time it, no TRIPLE time it, out of there. Even though J and I have had some differences and some ruff moments I can not say there was a time when I was ever UNHAPPY with him or that he made me in any way feel bad about myself.

P.S. The pillow over the head thing is ridiculous and immature and would have TOTALLY pissed me off too.