same as before:

Let it be.

This girl is 17 years old, & it's time she tested her wings.

You made a strategic error in tattling on her girlfriend to the girlfriend's parents;
it gave your daughter something to react against,
something on which to focus her increased need for independence,
something to defend.

& unless you think he's selling drugs to finance it, there's nothing wrong with her father's "country club" lifestyle, & harping on it only makes you look bitter & jealous.

Let it be.

If her father conned her into moving in with him for spiteful reasons, & now he has failed to get money out of her mother, & he's shelling out $100 a week in addition to whatever else he's spending as a result of his daughter living with him, the seams may begin to show pretty soon;
she may become disenchanted with him sooner rather than later *as long as you don't force her into the position of defending the move she made*.
but even if it takes longer, *don't push*.

illustration of what I'm talking about:

Just after we graduated from high school (1969), my best friend announced to her parents that she was moving to Washington, DC to live with her boyfriend for the summer.

Her parents blew a gasket & demanded that she not do it, etc etc etc.

Finally they shot the last arrow in their quiver:

"If you live with a man you're not married to, you are no longer our daughter."

so she married him.

When I went to visit her the following spring, I was shocked at how badly he treated her, how truly awful he was.

She told me, "I know.
I wish I hadn't married him.
If I had moved here with him in June without having married him, I'd have been home by Thanksgiving."

Don't push her.

Let it be.

I'm with sylviatexas on this one. Leave it alone.

All teenagers lose a few brain cells, make odd decisions and feel the need to rebel. If you gave her the right foundation (and it sounds like you did) she will grow out of it eventually.

I would keep my expectations for her consistent, and also keep send her messages to let her know that you and your wife love her and will be there for her.

I've got to agree with Sylvia about leaving her alone-ish. (I disagree that it was an error to nix the girlfriend, though.)

But at this point in her life, I'd be most concerned that she:
- not get pregnant,
- not get into drugs or an excessive partying lifestyle, and
- keep her prospects for college as good as they can realistically be.

The drugs and partying are a bit harder to monitor, but what about her grades and college prospects? Grades you should be able to get from the school, as with whether or not she has signed up for SATs/ACTs. Is this something she is at all intereted in? Even if college is down there with bioDad?

In some upsdale neighborhoods, 100/week spending money is not unusual. I know this is irksome.

I agrree with Sweeby. Make contact with guidance counselor, and let them know if a problem, she can come home.

Dang, I don't give myself $100 a week spending money...LOL That just sounds like "gettin' in trouble" money to me.

I agree. Time to just leave it alone. Any pressure is going to backfire, I'm afraid.

Thanks for all the insight and please keep it coming. We really appreciate it.

I would like to clarify our thinking concerning the 17 yo girlfriend moving in with biofather and our daughter. We had a very clear understanding with biofather and our daughter that this was an opportunity for our daughter to get to know and live with her father. We were told many times in emails from biofather and daughter that it was just the two of them going to live in the new home. Turns out for 1 year the plan was quite different and the 17 yo girlfriend was in on the living together plan from the start. How can one feel good about not getting the truth when our daughter's safety is important? Lied to?

Anyway we know the girlfriend well (5 years) and she has a very unfortunate reputation in the community, and this we have seen ourselves. Drug use, skipping school, alchohol use, very sexually active, low grades, and basically a young woman whose parents just don't monitor or have any rules for her that we could see. Being open minded and tolerant parents we did not try to stop the friendship after all of the problems we had with this girlfriend, however any responsible parent would be concerned with this person, as we were.

Biofather has never had a child in his home (divorced when SD was 6 months old) and he has no experience with raising childern that anyone can find. He lives alone with no female relationship (or male) for many years. Biofather was texting and calling the girlfriend constantly on her cell phone and it eventually appeared to girlfriends parents that a relationship was posssibly ongoing with their daughter and biofather, we just don't know. It all eventually looked strange to gf's parents. We felt that the risk was just to great to have an inexperienced father trying to live and guide two 17 yo girls, especially with no adult women in sight. And how much parental control would the biofather have over the girlfriend at 17 yo??

And what about the real opportunity for our daughter to really get to know her father with the girlfriend there to constantly entertain and distract her?

Anyway, we felt that given the individuals involved the risk of drug use and sexual activity was going to be out of site with girlfriend involved without parental supervision. And we only objected to the situation, that is all. The girlfriends parents decided that since we were lied to and that we were concerned, and given the intense text/phone call contact between their daughter (girlfriend) and biofather, it was best to pull her out. They could have gone ahead with the total move plan and there was nothing we could do about it.

I must object to the word/concept "tattle" as it makes sylviatexas seem immature in her view on this. The situation was correct to discuss our concerns with the parents of the girlfriend, and given our information and concern, they changed their minds. It is nice when mature people can discuss things, and ultimately make independent decisons for thier own children putting safety first. I hardly see where any "tattling" could have been involved.
We are proud of our mature stance and decision on this one. Some day I predict our daughter will thank us for it.
Peace!

Recently on the radio I listened to a man named Phil Waldrep who wrote a book titled "Parenting Prodigals" that offered insite to parents going through estrangement from their children. I had been flipping through radio stations, so I only picked up part of it, but it sounded very worthwhile. Perhaps this book would offer some valuable perspective and wisdom to what you and your wife are going through, to help you both find some peace somehow.

"I must object to the word/concept "tattle" as it makes sylviatexas seem immature in her view on this."

but I'm not the one who tattled.

In your previous posts, you said that you talked to the other girl's parents to try to keep your stepdaughter from moving.

& your post this evening is the first time I remember (could be that I just don't remember it, sorry if that's the case) reading that the girlfriend had a bad reputation & that you suspected that she might have some personal involvement with your stepdaughter's father.

"It is nice when mature people can discuss things, and ultimately make independent decisons for thier own children putting safety first."

In the first place, "safety first" is over-reacting at the least:
she's not living in an alley with a pimp, she's living with her own father, & she can use a telephone any time she needs to.

Secondly, if she were 5 years old, yes, her mother would be acting responsibly by making decisions for her.

but you *can't* "make decisions for their (your/her mother's) own children" when the "child" in question is within spitting distance of legal adulthood.

That's the point.

She's 17 years old.

She's making decisions herself, as she should be.

You can disengage gently & gracefully, & remain there in her life in a new role, stepfather to a grown young woman, ready to support her in whatever way *she* determines that she needs, or you can keep fighting.

You can fight her, you can fight her father, you can fight the whole world...

but you'll eventually lose.

You have to lose.

Not only is she entitled to grow up, she *has* to grow up.

Birds fly out of the nest, & no amount of squawking from their parents will stop them from flying.

Bird parents, knowing this, do not squawk.

They hover, they fret, they feed & protect an offspring who lands on the ground in a daze-
until that offspring is able to make another attempt at flight.

but they know that offspring will fly, it has to fly.

& you have to let go.

I wish you, & her, & her mother, the best.

Teenagers are the screwiest human beings on the planet. They say and do stupid things, make bold proclamations and outrageous demands. It's up to the parents to put up boundaries. Unfortunately, the guy who won't do it is her biological father AND she wants to live with him. What can you or her mother do? Not much.

Reach out once more with a letter or a telephone call. Tell her, "We love you and want you to be healthy, happy and loved. You're angry with us. We accept that. Please know that we'll always love you and the door is open if you want to come home. If you ever need to talk, we're here."

Then continue with weekly phone calls or letters, inquiring about her life and health and well being, but don't keep begging or nagging at her to come back home. Just drop that subject entirely. Stay in contact, but don't let her hold the whip hand by bringing up the estrangement over and over again. I think she's getting a little bit of a thrill out of knowing how much she's "wanted."

Dad's gonna get tired of her, probably sooner rather than later. Maintain contact, but don't allow her to control the relationship.

And good luck. Any parent of a teenager needs it.

Steve,

DH and I just had our last marriage counselor meeting. We are doing better, SD moved out, most issues are resolving.

We got on the subject of my SS - estranged from us for 2+ years. DH stopped enabling him somewhat by taking away the car (which we can't get rid of - I have issues there as SS should NEVER have gotten the darn car.) But, we still keep his cell phone on so DH can text him - he keeps the voice mail full, so you can't leave a message.

I asked the therapist what we should do and I swear, I was also thinking of you. She said, "Let him be - pray for him, bless him, but let him be." I said, "What if he winds up killing himself or never contacts us again?" I was getting teary-eyed despite the he!! he's put us both through. She said, "It rarely happens. They usually do come back - it could take years. You've let him know you love him, that you don't think he needs to be estranged from you all...there's nothing more you can do. Keep the phone on - it's not major enabling. But, do no more."

It's the hardest thing to do. We have small children that keep my DH distracted from this issue, I assume. For you and your wife, it will be so, so hard. I just don't see any options. Maybe find out when graduation is next Spring and hope you're invited? I think I scanned something about contacting the school - great idea. You want to be sure she is functioning well. Has your wife asked her atty for advice?

I also feel that her allowance is excessive - I don't care what neighborhood she's in - she's a teenager! Unless she has to feed herself three meals/day, it's too much and will end up getting her into trouble of some sort. Hopefully, she likes clothes only and doesn't have a taste for anything else.

Good luck,
Dana

Dana,

Thank you for thinking of us and your understanding of our situation. Miracles do occur sometimes and I hope that you SS returns to you folks. I'm sure he will be happy that he did.

In our case we agree with the "let it be" posture which we have been taking, and that with some luck nothing to bad will happen to her where we might have been able to help. I know that SD is living with her biological father now and you all don't know the history of this person; and unfortunately biofather's history is not a pretty picture with bankruptcys and police arrests, well the list goes on and you would not believe the crazy/terrible illegal things he has done. Biofather got to the point that he would do and say absolutely anything to get our daughter to leave her mother and me and come live with him. Why? For spite and companionship selfish reasons for him we truly believe. We hope that the role model and guidance her father is providing will be helpful, however in many ways we doubt it. The estrangement is a direct result of biofather's divorce poison.
We just have real concerns, thats all.

It is very painful for my wife and me to have this estrangement now with our daughter. She is the only child we chose to raise. We never imagined things would go this way, even though we always encouraged her to have a good relationship with her biofather and encouraged visits with him. To be completely shut out of her life for now, given that we lovingly parented her for 17 years (12 years for me as her Stepfather) is just painful, that is all I can say. Of course we want her to fly away from the nest and have an independent life, however odds are real that this living situation and role model will not encourage the academic motivation (college?) and work ethic that is essential for a good first flight.

We will continue to just "Let it Be" and enjoy our very good and happy marriage. Maybe a miracle will happen to us some day!?

Unconditional Love is something one cannot buy at any price. It is nice to know that our daughter is now so rich that she does not need this unconditional gift from us.
How lucky she must be!

Steve,

Again, I am sorry. I feel for you. You've posted this to us, hoping against hope, that there is a new answer out there - somewhere, anywhere. Sadly, the time is dragging by for you and while you feel you have left her to do as she feels she must, it probably seems like minutes to her.

The teenaged years are touchy, no doubt about it. I fully understand your fears - Will she ever return? Will you ever see her again? Will she get into trouble, following her new role model and be afraid to reach back out to you? Will she NEVER want to reach to you again?

Oh, to have a peek into the future...

I am so sorry about all of this. I feel your pain and my hat's off to you for trying so hard. I'm sure your wife must be nearly inconsolable. I advise you be there for her. I'm sure you're pretty inconsolable, too, judging from your efforts all these years, your posts, etc. There is more to being a father than sharing one's genes. You and your wife must be in a state of mourning the loss of the girl you thought you knew so well. I pray the early years are down deep in this young woman and that the morals you gave her will resurface when the party grows tiresome.

I'm in S. FL - want me to make a road trip???

Good luck,
Dana

Dana,

Wow! You summed up our concerns very accurately. It is somehow reassuring to know that someone understands the basic situation we have at hand.

The only other concern that you were not able to mention, which is very real to us, is the very unfortunate history biofather has of extreme emotional and physical abuse that was so constant during (and way after) my wife's first marriage to this man. Leopards don't change their spots, and this one certainly hasn't for sure.

Given the limited information coming out of the FL living situation with biofather (Grandmother calling SD to talk) the picture is one where our daughter and her father are essentially living like roommates, virtually no big promises fulfilled, and just a lot of free time for SD to roam around with new friends and new boyfriend and no real job or academic expectations. So there you have it. Again we are hoping for a miracle to occur in later years, and I certainly hope that a miracle occurs for you and that your SS comes back to you, in good health and with lots of acquired wisdom!

By the way, SD lives in Weeki Wachie, FL, and no need for a road trip. I truly appreciate the offer. Should you wish to keep in touch on our similiar situations, feel free to email me at: floydsteve@yahoo.com

Thanks to All for your sincere comments. We are eternally grateful!