I have no problem with your math. My only problem with CS is that kids should NEVER be aware of how much it is, whether it has been paid, who is paying it, who isn't and what it's used for.

Too many kids are acutely aware of the CS issue. It makes them feel like objects, not humans. Do the math, go to court, argue all you want -- but please do not ever include the kids in the discussion. Biological children in unbroken families never have to hear about whether someone has "paid" for them that month. I have a friend who was raised in such a situation. She said on the months when her parent didn't pay the CS, she would always be told. Then she'd try hard not to eat too much, not to ask for anything, and not to cost anyone anything. In short, she felt like a burden. A child should never feel like a burden.

lafevem: You crack me up - hand the post over to bm and please take a picture for me! I recall when DH was paying his x $6k/mo ( CS and alimony) and she moved them into a friend's pool house! I'd bet her living expenses were pretty close to zilch, so maybe I ought to ask her for some help now that I'm swimming in her grown kids bills, lol.

lilysuzanne: You are so right. I can honestly tell you that I've never heard my DH say one word about $ he paid, but the kids would bring it up often. Shame on women for doing that. Kids have no concept of $ - to them, they could live comfortably on $100 for a year, lol. So, you know they are being told 'it isn't enough' over and over to the point that they complain to the fathers. Kids shouldn't ever know about financial issues whether parents are married or not - heck, that's what's so great about being a kid! No 'real world' issues, etc. That's not to say that you can't say, "Sorry, we can't afford that..." or "I like that, too, let's save up for that for Christmas!" I'm not saying you buy and buy, but you certainly don't want them feeling the stress we, as adults, feel on a routine basis...

D

lily...I completely agree with you. My ex pays CS for my son, but occasionally (very ocassionally) he gets a little behind. He is very good about paying the marjority of the time. I would never let my son know when he is behind, and I am sure my son has no idea about CS. On the other hand, my 12 and 17 year old SDs knows all about CS. In fact,17 year old SD is often the one told to call if CS hasn't come in yet. A couple of weeks ago, my SD17 needed something or the other. CS wasn't in yet..(it has to go to the state first, then they send it to the parent..so sometimes it takes a little while), so her mom told her to call her dad and tell him CS wasn't in so he needed to pay for it. It came in like the next day, but I feel my SD17 is always left with the impression her dad isn't paying...I think that stinks.

vista...I agree with you as well. When we can't afford something right away, we certainly talk to our children about that, but I would never say to my son...we can't afford it because your dad doesn't pay enough CS. What a great way to make a kid feel!

I have noticed that most of my postings lately have to do with either child support or the maintenance we were paying BioMom, despite her remarriage. I don't know if this is good or bad, but I'm not really having any issues with my stepsons these days, mostly just with their BioMom who doesn't pay for any of younger son's residential treatment.

A few years ago, when the boys were still living with their mom, she was receiving a combined $8K/mo (CS and maintenance). The boys would come over to our house and ask one of us to take them shopping to get gym shoes, or whatever, because "Mom isn't working, so she can't afford it. Plus she doesn't have time." We never said a word, just took them shopping.

I like lafevem's point that the financial responsibility for the children should be born by mom and dad equally. But I think that's very rarely the case. My sons' BioMom seemed to think DH should support the boys, her and her husband fully. And there are plenty of custodial BioMoms who get peanuts for child support, if anything at all.

lafevem: this post was exactly the point I think that some people need! Too bad those that need this point are not reading and commenting! I completely agree with what everyone has said here in this post! Too many BM's think that child support should support the children without any of their own "out of pocket expenses". Any many bm's think that they should be able to live off cs without working as well. Does giving birth entitle you to never work again???? If so, I guess I got screwed!

After one of the many court dates about CS each time mom wanted a reduction it went up but anyway. The 9 yr old was at moms the night the judgement came through so she sat on the phone all night crying to anyone who would listen while the kids tried to console her. Needless to say she dropped him off here at 8 am because he felt sick. He then started yelling at me about how much her CS is plus back support adding the amounts in his head... How is mommy going to keep her car? How is mommy going to pay her insurance? why does mommy have to pay him to be our daddy? The judge made mommy close her business so she could pay CS? what kind of job are you going to get when the judge fires you? Why does daddy need so much money. Mommy said she isn't gonna take us any more because she has to pay support. YOU GET THE IDEA!!
Then the others came home from school and same stuff from them ... No matter how many times I said its not your problem you shouldn't know about CS. do your friends know about CS talk to your dad when he gets home. etc. Then the 8 yr old began vomiting and crying constantly 3 weeks of this she was "worried" her mother wouldn't have a home or car. she would be living in a cardboard box near the train tracks if she has to pay support... (thats what she told her counselor)

It took her 6 months to pay.... so for 6 months she told the kids she was broke because she had to pay support. Hubby called her up told if she said it to them again he would take her rights away as a parent. I also told him to tell her if she said it again I would call child services on her she was emotionally abusing her children.

The comments stopped in march of this year. She still complains about being broke but not because of hubby. Its all the judges fault and her bosses fault.

Hubby filed comtempt charges on her in march for saying those things so she watches what she says to the kids now.

cawfe...I completely understand what you are saying. When DH's divorce was final, his ex was awarded the home and given 90 days to refinance the home so his name would no longer be on it. Fast Forward 6 years...we are married and need to buy a larger home and cannot because DH's name is STILL on the other house. DH runs his credit report and finds out they have been late on EVERY payment since he left the house getting as much as 120 days late and almost into foreclosure at this point. DH could not have bought a box of cracker jacks at that point..his credit was shot because his name was still the primary on this house. Side note: My DH was in the military and this home was a VA loan so it also hurt his credibility with VA and he was unable to use his benefits for our home. I say...enough is enough...we have to go get an attorney and force BM and her new DH to refinance. So, BM gets court papers and goes ballistic. Tells 17 year old SD we are suing her, trying to take her home, etc. 17 year old comes to our house and starts going off on her dad telling him her mom can't help it if she can't pay her bills (BM doesn't work and had gone through a 65,000 settlement in 3 months, and plays bingo 3 nights a week)and actually told my DH if he was a true Christian he would pay for the house so her mom could stay in it. It is really sad when the kids are put in this position. Thank God...A judge saw it our way and made her refinance.

That's a darned shame - to put those kids through such anguish, etc. It's funny, isn't it, that the women seem to be complaining about $ - whether they're on the giving or receiving side of the fence. Well, I've heard my brother complain about the meager amt. he pays in front of my DNephews and I shut him up and FAST! He's the only man I've heard bring $ into the equation to any great extent.

Personally, I have to whole heartedly agree w/ what you've told the kids and you should add, "The court has a formula they use to determine, after taking of all your mom's (or NCP's) expenses into account, what she can afford to pay, so don't you worry one bit about your mother not having money for a car or ins! The judge wouldn't do that!

D

cawfe, that is horrible about the house and your dh's credit! My dh got his credit hurt by a car awarded to his ex in the divorce. She "couldn't" make the 200 per month payments. She called my dh a few times asking for money and he told her no. The finance place was calling here constantly saying that she said he had the car! Big mess...finally the finance place repossessed the car in front of her work. (that was back when she had a job) She called and cried, and had the nerve to tell my dh that if she had the kids and cs that she would not have been in such financial trouble!!!!!!! (funny that she kept telling the kids that she had to work "overtime" so she could not see them) Then she was asking him to help pay for her to go back to college! (some women have no shame!)

Now my dh's credit is lower, and the finance company could care less about the divorce papers showing that the car was her responsibility!

My DH and I were in a similar situation with the car issue. Her car was entirely in his name. When they separated, the decree stated she was to provide own car and give that car back to him within 60 days. Well that never happened and he never said anything about it because she has full custody and every time he pissed her off she would make excuses as to why he couldnt see his son. She just payed him the payment every month. So, we got engaged (he works away from home 6 months a year so I took over bill paying). And I noticed that her payments were coming in late, I'd have to pay them with our money and then get reimbursed. I back tracked through the account online and noticed there had also been months where she didnt pay at all. I talked to DH about this and with 4 more years of payments left on the car, we decided to enforce the separation agreement. We sent her a certified letter giving her 30 days to either give the car back or have it refinanced. The car was in our driveway within a week.

I haven't responded yet because I was working my full-time job. I also work a part-time job, sometimes 2 part-time jobs.

I think it is obvious why a 12 and a 17 year old cost more than adults. They shower more often, eat more, have more activities, outgrow their clothes, have educational expenses, use more personal care items, need new glasses every year, etc.

Child support is based not only on costs, but on income. If one parent earns twice what the other does, he or she should pay the lion's share of the children's expenses.

I have no clue how the mother can spend only $2435 a month. My mortgage payment is not much less than that, on a tiny house with one bath. And I can't move to a cheaper area, because that would require my exH's permission (or a judge's).

As you know, there is no other adult living in my household. The household living expenses are approximately $167 a day, 80% of which would be allocated to the children (if you ignore the fact that children cost more than adults as described above). If, as you claim, I should be responsible for half of that, that means child support should be $66.80 a day, or $467.60 a week - far more than twice what I actually receive. Except for one child who visits my exH occasionally, my kids are home (or at college, which the children and I also pay for and is not included in the above figures) 24/7.

Then you should take into account the fact that their father earns close to twice what I do, and the fact that his mortgage payment/rent is zip.

My DD also spends a lot more time in the house than I do. And just because she is over at her dads (or meeting him for dinner) doesnt mean my rent or mortgage payments dont go on. This is what CS is supposed to deal with. The cost of houseing etc. And if you can find a landlord that will reduce rent for the days that children arent there, I suggest you have him contact your DHs x.

TOS and KKNY...I wasn't commenting on your personal situation. I was telling you what my situation was, and I took my numbers directly from BM's financial affadavit...those are numbers she came up with and swore to. Not my numbers. Her house payment is only 750 dollars per month thanks to the fact that it was originally financed on my DH's VA benefits.

TOS writes...I think it is obvious why a 12 and a 17 year old cost more than adults. They shower more often, eat more, have more activities, outgrow their clothes, have educational expenses, use more personal care items, need new glasses every year, etc.

My response...Ummmm, my SD's weigh 120 pounds and 81 pounds respectively so I really don't think they eat more than a grown man and woman. They have no educational expenses as they attend public schools, are on free and reduced lunch, and we buy ALL..yes...ALL of their school supplies. My oldest SD also has a job and buys most of her items with her own money. Neither of them are involved in any activities because that would require their mom put some time into them which she is not interested in doing. My 12 year old SD is in tumbling on Saturday while she is with us and we pay for it. And if you have read my other posts, we buy ALL..yes...ALL of their clothes and glasses and contacts.

TOS...I understand your children do not visit with your ex, and I posted in a previous thread that I feel there should be more child support given to a BM who gets no help with expenses. That is not the case for MY DH. He has them 3 days a week, pays child support, and buys everything else. My son has not seen his BF in 4 years, so I know where you are coming from, but that is not the case for my DH. As far as your ex having no mortgage or rent, again that is a unique situation and one I don't think the majority of men in general are in. Also, I think it is admirable you work so hard for your family. I know that takes a strong person. But again, my DH's ex doesn't work at all so that is really not the case with her.

KKNY..seriously, how much more of a house is required to house 1 child than you would have normally paid for yourself. Obviously, whether you have a child or not, YOU have to have a place to live, and I don't think 1 additional child would necessitate a much larger house. But, you have stated before, you have chosen not to receive CS so this is really a moot point for you.

I was thinking nearly exactly what you just wrote!

D

Yes, I have chosen not to go for CS, and instead a high level of "extras" which some SMs might regard as extravagent or luxurious. SD will get a luxrury car at 16, can attend any college, etc. This was her standard of living when her parents were married.

As to not needing a bigger house becuase of one child, standard of living while married -- family room, and two car garage, etc., so yes bigger.

As to your situation, as to mom supposed to be paying 1/2 of expenses -- that depends on a number of things, inlcuding what both are earning. As to paying for Stepdadss car, that depends on a number of things, inlcuidng how relaiable moms car is, etc. and whether it is a family care. Time will tell how this comes out.

I just find it awfully sad that people have to get the legal system involved to force them to do what is right for their own children. Blows my mind. And then I wonder about some others that seem hell bent on SOAKING the ex-spouse out of vindictiveness or a sense of entitlement--whatever.

...and FWIW, there is NO WAY I'd WANT my 16 year girl to have a luxury (or any) car at her age. I really don't care what my standard of living is. Some things just need to be earned. Ours drives my van or my husband's truck WHEN IT'S AVAILABLE. We might help her buy a used car, but she'd have to pony up a part of it as well as a part of the car insurance and maintenance. I'd rather she not have that sense of entitlement because all that does is breed unhappiness.

I prefer to teach her that she can have anything she wants if she's willing to WORK for it.

...and yes, it's a theory I subscribe to myself--as I work two full time jobs. That's why I don't post here often. There just isn't time in my day.

I want my DDs focus now on grades, extra-curricular activities and getting into a good college, and then a good graduate or professional school. She did work this summer, but I would rather she take an unpaid career oriented internship next summer. There is no need for her to pay for her own insurance. I want her focused on long range goals.

Maybe what breeds unhappiness is she will be driving an nicer car than dad's GF. But GF could get a job. She has no living expenses.

And at her high school, many children do drive luxury cars. I am not certain how all afford it, but her dad can.

Ok so lets go with this ... When hubby and ex were married he was a SAHD basically only worked when kids were in school. EX was the bread winner earning well over $100,000 a year.

So to hold the theory children should be at the same level they were pre-divorce... CS would be ? 4 times what it is now.

Ex closed her business quit her job every 3 months so DOR couldn't catch up to her. Where do you expect her to get the money from?

Ex filed personal and business bankruptcy... Anything hubby had co-signed on ... being a married couple they had joint accounts. He ended up having to pay for he is still paying for a camper the ex lived in for a year but stopped paying for because she was filing bankruptcy a personal loan they had together to help her start her business. Those 2 loans are $200+ a week... but because she filed bankruptcy she doesn't have to pay them.

So here's the deal Ex left hubby with 4 children, over $50,000 in debt and no money. She left a week before they get out of school so he worked for one week. Then had no income for 10 weeks. Didn't see her children for 3 months after she left. Didn't offer him any money or any time with the children. Took her 18 months to pay any kind of support ... by then she owed over $10,000 in back support.

Where's the same standard of living?

If everything is equal in marriage it should be equal in divorce as well.... everything gets split 50/50. Bills kids etc.

"If everything is equal in marriage it should be equal in divorce as well.... everything gets split 50/50. Bills kids etc. "

I think there are a lot of variables. Custody/visitiaotn should be driven by best interests fo child. My X cant take DD 1/2 the time, he travels too much. CS should be driven by other variables -- including who makes how much.

KKNY...I threw the part in there about step-father's car as I knew you would find a way to justify that we should help pay for it. However, if my DH said our CS needed to be reduced because I mainly take care of the children and need a new, reliable car, you would say I am just the SM and my new car isn't anyone else's problem. Love the double standard. BTW...BM has a brand new car she bought with her $65,000 insurance settlement and it is perfectly reliable.

I realize that there are different situations, but, on the whole, custodial mothers are worse off after divorce than are noncustodial and generally custodial fathers. Although you couldn't tell it from this board, most kids end up with their mothers, and many mothers end up not receiving all the child support they have been awarded.

If I only had a $750 a month mortgage payment, I would be ecstatic. You can't even rent a studio apartment for that around here.

Actually, my teenagers do eat as much as I do - and teenage boys eat as much as 3 or 4 siblings and a Great Dane put together.

Again, I have no teenage boys as stepsons, only daughters. And neither of them eat as much as an adult. In addition, my sd17 works and goes out most nights so she pays for her own meals.

My teenage DD works out, is athletic, but also eats and brings friends over. I would rather they be here than where I dont know. Yes the snacks get expensive, but I am glad to have her heere.

My SD's eat as well. Just not as much as my DH or her step-father. That is the point I was making. And again...kkny...you have said you don't receive CS by choice, so CS is a moot point with you.